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What is the cheapest way to get service manuals?
I have been qouted 1000 dollars for all four manuals? Is any one planning on scanning one. Maybe a group buy at a discount? Any suggestions?
The Escape owners like their vehicles.The actual MPG numbers I've seen were a good-high 20's -about like the HH.The EPA ratings are a little higher for the Escape.I haven't seen any complaints from the owners yet.
Reviews have generally found good mpg,but VERY NOISY when that 4 cyl is "on".The CVT trans apparently keeps the motor spinning fairly high,and it isn't a very refined motor.It is kinda slow also->10 sec 0-60(by memory).
Bottom line-owners like it so far.It is a lot cheaper,a LOT NOISIER,lot slower,smaller but not much lighter~4000 lbs+,about the same mpg.If the QC is typical Ford it will be not so great in that respect.CR and maybe the insurance institute downrate the normal Escape for being a roll over risk.I think this was just from calculations,not from real world crashes.Charlie
($1000 for a set of HH manuals!?! The 4 service manuals I bought for my non-hybrid (main service vols 1 & 2; the electrical manual, and the transmission manual) were around $200 (and I thought that was expensive!) -- have you checked with another dealer? (BTW I wouldn't recommend getting the transmission manual as I've never found any use for it))
Biggest downside was size. The second seat of the HH is remarkably big, the kids love the tilt back (a rare feature for most non-hybrid cars I believe) and there is still a lot of room in the back (where the third seat is folded down).
Second, its a very "spartan" car. Driver seat was uncomfortable and non-leather interior had a nylon sort of "cheap" feel to it that seemed very utilitarian. We wanted a bit of "splash"/luxury so the HH Ltd proved to perfect for us. I even encouraged my wife to drive a "regular" Escape, fully loaded to see if she might feel different; she didn't.
Finally, and our bias, is Ford. Frankly, we hadn't realized that the HH was going to make its appearence in mid 2005 but we owned (until we purchased HH) a 1997 Ford Expedition. My wife does a huge amount of driving kids around (sometimes 200 miles a week easy) and every 4 to 6 months we would have to replace the front or back brakes. Nature of the "beast" but in the last four plus years the dealership always found something that could be unsafe unless we fixed it and so our avg. repair bill was always pretty high. Kinda like going to a club grocery store and finding that you don't walk out with less than a $200 grocery bill. Except that auto repairs are more painful to bear. We had owned almost all Toyotas prior to Expedition and reliability was very evident (as is any car survey you come across reflects).
HH is certainly more expensive, and the Escape Hybrid likely more accessible for purchase sooner rather than later. We are thrilled with our HH and glad we waited.
Good luck.
Third,
The CR-V rear seats both slide fore/aft and recline. Plus it has 39 inches of rear legroom (rear seats slid back). No 3rd seat, and no question the luxury goes to the HH in any comparison. It is only slightly smaller, and about 10K $$ or so less (CR-V SE vs HH). MPG is about 22 city / 28 highway (AWD), real world; I think the EPA mileage is higher than that. A lot of the mileage is due to the efficient I4 and 5 speed transmission, plus they added throttle-by-wire for 2005.
But then I remember questions being raised why toyota didn't make a hybrid 4 cyl engine with the objective of improving mileage. Maybe they didn't because at best, the mileage would be on par with the escape. but the highlander is heavier, and boxier, so with my tiny mind, i can imagine the mileage falling inbetween the 2 cars-- say upper 20's.
What I'm wondering is what the gas mileage of a HH 4-cyl would be considering the smaller lighter escape is only 29 according to realworld averages. If it isn't all that great, does it even make sense for toyota to produce a 4-cyl hybrid?
I think you are right that Toyota looked at the 4 cyl and decided that the 2 mpg they would gain by going 4 cyl just wouldn't be worth it on a $38000 vehicle.The Highlander 4 cyl is a pretty stout motor-it would probably turn in . 9 sec 0-60 with the electric motors,but folks who can afford close to $40,000 for a vehicle want performance for that kind of money.Toyota was pretty slick.The HH is quicker than a lot of higher priced SUVs-RX330,MDX,the Murano based Infinity,all the Tuaregs(sic).
Hmm,the Camry.I bet they go with the V-6-maybe use some of the same hardware as the HH.I would rather it used the 4 cyl and get the better mpg..Charlie
Thanks for the information and comparisons between the Escape and Highlander hybrids. It has been valuable. I will continue to monitor for more info. I do like the third seat of the Highlander and am aware of the traditional quality reputation of Toyota. Generally I have had good experiences with both Toyota and Ford vehicles in my past. If all things were equal, I'd go with the Toy based on the hybrid experience they've amassed on the Prius, but $40K is a sizeable chunk of change. I'll keep pondering and let everyone know what I decide when I put the money on the counter. Thanks for all the input. -- Yurt
Each buy one and share with others?
Volume1 Diagnostics: 123.36 cost/173.36 retail
Volume2 Engine: 164.49/214.49
Volume3 Body: 156.26/206.26
Volume4 Electric: 139.81/189.81
were talking alot of frickin money, I just want the Engine Volume!
The one thing that I hesitated about was the 72 month/75K mile extended warranty. I ended up getting it because this is a new model and if you do not make any claims against the extended warranty, it's refunded to you. I can't wait to pick up this vehicle!
pg.
Because the business agent who arranges finance etc. offered it, not the salesman, I suspect that this is the standard deal. Maybe the $2300 deal w/ refund option is standard too. That was not offered to me. Maybe I'll ask, although $1650 sounds better than paying an extra $650 for a small chance at recovering $2300 seven years down the road.
Dublin is selling me the base awd plus option 1 for MSRP. I also bought the prepaid servicing contract to 55k miles for $950 and the teflon on body and interior plus undercoat/sound deadening for $495. I never went for these "extras" before, but they seemed so reasonably priced that I bought them.
The salesman has been very good about keeping me informed about availability and getting me what I wanted.
It is scheduled to arrive within about a week. Can't wait.
It would be helpful if others posted their experiences with these items. I believe that I read in this forum that they can be purchased from any dealer, not just the one you bought the car from. The servicing and warranty are good at any North American Toyota dealer. Toyotaken or other dealers on this forum, can you confirm?
Marvin
I'm not going to go into alot of detail, as there is a forum dedicated to this topic, but I'll explain it briefly as it hasn't come up in this forum yet as it is relatively new.
For the most part, extended service contracts are able to be purchased at any dealer. And again, in most states, the pricing on them is negotiable. There are service programs available from two primary sources. Manufacturers and third-party vendors. Third-party vendors are sometimes less expensive, but often at the expense of either fewer covered components or difficulty in use as some dealers won't or can't accept them or you have to cover the cost of the repair upfront then get reimbursed. Manufacturer backed service programs are typically more comprehensive in their full-coverage formats, are required by the dealer network to be accepted, and cover the cost of the repair, excluding any deductible, upfront and are typically more focused on Customer service rather than just the bottom line so are a bit more lenient in many cases if the claim is "questionable".
Also keep in mind that dealers with multiple manufacturer lines can allow you to choose a manufacturer-backed program offered by another manufacturer. So you could potentially purchase a Ford or GM backed service program for a Toyota. In this case, again, the top level coverage is normally similar in coverage, so compare costs and ease of use.
For the Toyota programs specifically. You can choose to purchase the Platinum level of coverage anytime within the first 36months/36,000 miles of the comprehensive warranty coverage. The MBG (Money-back-guarantee) or PPR (purchase price refund) is actually not something that is offered directly through Toyota, but is normally a "rider" that is from another company such as AUSA or CIGNA that the dealer is charged a fee to offer as incentive. These are not uncommon on Toyota's as from personal experience working as a Finance manager for several years prior to going back into sales, Toyota's reputation makes it difficult to keep sales of Service programs up without them. Read the document going over the refund document. In most cases, you cannot have any claims, even for towing, during the full contract term for it to be valid. You also typically have 30-90 days from the date of the expiration of the contract to submit your request for refund before it expires. If you do sell your vehicle and wish to transfer the service program, the refund portion is not usually also transferrable. And if you trade your vehicle in, you will only get the refund of a pro-rated portion of your service program based on time and miles as the refund clause doesn't come into play until it actually expires.
That all being said, in over 12 years of owning, and 10 years of working with Toyota's, I've had service programs an all of the Toyota's that I've purchased (not necessarily leased) and in EVERY case they have paid for themselves and then some. Does that mean they always will, of course not, but just like any insurance, I like to know that I'm protected if I need it.
Hope this helps explain things for you all.
Ken
Ken
My concern is that high water could mess up a hybrid if not properly protected. It is clear that the highlander is a SUV only in styling. Off road sandy stream fording is strictly forbidden. But in Houston flash flooded streets happens often and quickly. Are the front and rear traction motors as well as the elelectrics "waterproof"? Anyone have experience with high street water in their hybrid?
The cancellation refund is prorated after 30 days in effect. I can find no mention of claims having any effect on the refund. There is a $25 processing fee that you never get back. It is possible that a rider is available that I wasn't offered. List price on Toyota's web site is $1,425 for a 4WD Highlander (the Hybrid isn't listed). It's $1650 for a Prius, but I got both covered for the same price each.
I have a question that you might be able to help me with. For example, the info says that timing belts are covered by the warranty. Does that mean the repair is covered if a timing belt breaks or does that mean it will cover the routine replacement of the timing belt when it is due?
I plan on keeping my HH longer than 7-years but my experience with Toyota's is that they are very reliable. I do understand that one fairly major repair will quickly pay for the cost of the extended warranty if I chose to buy one.
Your thoughts would be welcome.
Thanks, Bean88
As I've said in other posts, I also keep my Toyota's for a long period of time. In over 10years of working with them and 12years of driving them I've always had the service program pay for itself. Is that a guarantee? Of course not. However, at least in this area, with labor rates in the $60-$80/hour range, plus whatever parts and taxes, it has worked out well for me so far.
Hope this helps.
Ken
Additionally, has anyone tried getting pre-paid scheduled maintenance? Is it worth doing this for a new HH? I was looking at the prices quoted at Toyota's web site. For 4 year/55k miles with service every 5000 miles you can get a pre-paid maintenance for $540 (classic) or $950 or so for premium (which includes three major services at 15k, 30k, 45k).
Any ideas?? How does pre-settling for MSRP affect negotiations in the pricing of these packages?
In a way it is good that we (some/most of us on this board) have to wait for our cars to arrive. This is info that is typically handed to you when you get in to close the deal and at that time there is much more to contemplate and one is normally tempted to walk away (even though one does have the time to buy into these later). Having time to mull these factors over is wonderful.
Thanks to all who have posted (please continue to provide data points on your negotiations). Thanks also toyken!!
Wes
Friday, July 15, 2005, The Sacramento Bee
Car Czar: Hybrid technology faces a bumpy road with some motorists
Q: I caught the very end of your Sunday radio show, when you made a closing comment that resonated quite well with me regarding the "hybrid hype." I find myself, as an engineer, being the only one I know of who has seen the warts on pop culture's newest little darlings. Every time I see a hybrid, I think, "That person could have bought an Echo and a windmill for the same price." Did you mention on your show the inevitable balloon payment somebody is going to be liable for upon replacement of the battery pack? Replacement analysis indicates that the battery pack premium will never be recovered. Nobody talks about the fact that hybrid vehicles are a 100-year-old technology that became an evolutionary dead-end 90 years ago. The Woods Motor Co., for example, built and sold a 45-miles-per-gallon hybrid truck in 1916. From a reliability, engineering and hazard analysis perspective, a hybrid platform is about the worst concept I can think of on which to base a vehicle. I believe our transportation systems should be hybrid, not the platforms themselves. I can't take credit for the following quote, but it is sure worth sharing: "If a hybrid vehicle's emissions are so clean, how come the tailpipe doesn't exhaust into the passenger compartment?" I believe that 10 years from now, we will look back at our affair with hybrids and ask ourselves, "What were we thinking?"
As for pre-paid maintenance, I'd have to look seriously at the numbers. If you look at the maintenance schedule, only the 15k mile cycle (15k, 30k, 45K) is more than change, the oil, rotate the tires and light inspection, which I can easily do my self for less money better than the dealer. Too many dealers use bulk 10W30 oil and try to tell you it's good for the car, so I end up making them use my jug of Mobil 1 anyhow, so no savings there. If you plan on having the dealer do all maintenance, can keep them from putting 10W30 bulk oil in an engine designed for 5W30 oil and $49 is less than they charge for the 5000 mile service, the $540 plan has merit. If that is true and the dealer charges more than $136.67 for the 15K maintenance the $950 plan is a winner.
I bought the both the Prius and HH at MSRP. The dealer seemed much happier at MSRP on the HH than the Prius even though they had started over MSRP on the HH, but the HH is not a hot seller in Lower Delaware and even at MSRP, they probably pocketed more money than they do on most of the vehicles with no work in my case.
I hear the dealer, CF Schwartz in Dover, is expecting two more Hybrid Highlanders in this month and may not have them pre-sold if they are fully loaded Limiteds like the last batch. Their waiting list seems to consist only people wanting basic trim models.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4022560&src=GBT
It is very interesting. The early hybrids didn't use batteries at all, and many didn't connect the engine to the transmission, rather relying on electric motors in all four wheel hubs to power the vehicle.
In MOST states, (not all) service program pricing is negotiable. Also, you're not obligated to purchase the service program from the dealer you purchase the vehicle from either, you can do so at any Toyota dealer.
As for the Pre-paid Maintanence... The best way to figure out what is cost effective and not... the classic autocare (PPM) only covers oil changes and includes roadside assistance during the time of the PPM. So find out what the dealer charges for oil changes, and find out what AAA would cost for the same period of time to find out what the break-even point is.
The premium autocare (PPM) includes ALL factory recommended services for the vehicle for the set period of time. So that would include the 15,000 mile, 30,000 mile, and potentially the 45,000 mile services as well. Which all cost quite a bit more when you look at the maintanence schedule from the factory. (keep in mind I say the factory maintanence schedule. Not the dealer's as they often recommend additional services) To find your break-even cost on this, do the same thing. Using the factory maintenance schedule, find out what the services will cost from your service department, find out what the roadside assistance will cost from AAA and the total will be the break-even point for the PPM to make sense.
Hope this helps.
Ken
If you're interested, check out Arlington Toyota in IL.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/chi-0507100242jul10,1,4404760.column?c- - oll=chi-navrailtechnology-nav
The issue I have with the review is that he implies that the HH takes a long time before it's ready to get moving:
But the hybrid acts a bit differently than a gas-only machine. Turn the key and step on the accelerator in a gas-powered Highlander and off you go.
Turn the key in the hybrid and there's a few-second pause for the "ready" light to go on. Then wait of a few more seconds for the nickel-metal-hydride batteries to activate the electric motor to get the machine going.
Chances are bank robbers would never use one as a getaway car.
But the reward for your patience is near total silence because you start and get going on battery power so Highlander hybrid midsize SUV enjoys the fuel economy of a compact sedan.
My experience is that the READY light comes on so fast after turning the key that you don't even realize it's on. I checked it out purposely last night, and the time for it to come on was LESS than a second. I didn't check to see how long it was before the vehicle could actually move, but my feeling is that by the time you shift into Drive, it's ready to go. I certainly have never felt like I was waiting on the car.
I was talking to someone who read the review. Her husband is considering trading their non-hybrid Highlander for a HH, but after reading the article they were hesitant because "it sounds like it takes a long time to start up".
I think this review gave a really wrong impression. Any comments?
Looks like the demand is stabilizing. And the price was $998 under MSRP
It was misleading in the respect of his desire of an 'instant start, which I 'categorically refute ' as mine is instantly available.
The author also addressed the cost issue and the 'payback' based on $2.00/gal ?!?
I think that is rather 'old' data as of the published date, July10, 2005, as marine fuel (same as auto gas) in Chicago Harbours is now @ $3.08/gal.
He does go on to debunk some concerns such as,"hybrids perform like slugs," by stating "response to pedal pressure is immediate and energetic."
He also goes on to laud the VDIM capabilities of the vehicle.
Bottom line...have your hesitant friends test drive the vehicle, possibly even let them drive yours....they will come away with the only remaining impediment being cost.
From the posts on this site, as well as my own experience with my NW Indiana dealer, HH's are remaining on the lot possibly for longer than expected, due to cost considerations by the public. This may eventually open up the opportunity for more negotiation and a slight reduction in that impediment as well.
On the one hand, I like the idea of getting a discount, and since I'm going to be in the chicago area anyway, it kinda works out. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of driving 2 cars back. I was planning on selling my car privately, so if I trade it in, I'll probably lose any savings I get. also, while I think I can get my deposit back, I'm still going to need a place to have my car serviced and don't want an ugly scene (they said depsit was non-refundable even though I didn't sign a buy order).
So in the interest of supporting local business, I think I'm just going to purchase the car here. It will be nice to show up in our new HH for our trip. Of course if it doesn't come before labor day, I'll be seriously upset that I let this opportunity pass.
anyway, for those in the kenosha or laurel area, I would strongly suggest you consider buying your car through car max. Depending on what market you're in, you **may** be able to negotiate a better deal, but not without a hassle.
I have never noticed any delay in startup time in a month of driving. I turn the ignition and the ready light comes on immediately. As soon as I put it in drive or reverse I can go whether the gas engine has started to warm up or not. Whether I move away in electric or gas simply depends on how hard I press the gas pedal. I see no difference between a gas engine in startup time. In fact, starting from a red light, the power seems more instantaneous compared to a small lag in my old gas engine vehicle.
My questions are:
1. If I lease and the HH's technology has a big glitch, critical recalls, a newer technology surpasses the HH's, or for any reason the value plummets then I can step away cleanly once the lease is over vs. taking a beating on a possible market devaluation.
2. If I lease, is it possible that if any of these things happen I can finish the lease and then, if I wanted get a better price on another HH if its a buyers market?
Thanks!
as far as Q2 is concerned-- if the future resale of the HH goes down significantly, it's because nobody wants it, whether it's because of faulty technology, recalls, or something that makes owning the car undesirable. Why would you want this car? I'm not saying this will happen- but if you're leasing, take the opportunity to walk away and get the "next generation" technology.
If there's a 63% residual that equates to about 10% depreciation a year for the first 3 years? And if it's a high residual and there is a bust of sorts, then it would probably be cheaper to walk away after the lease and perhaps snag a bargain on the used market.
"[Iacocca] said Detroit's automakers need to move faster on hybrid electric cars. G.M., he added, should have invested in hybrids instead of buying the Hummer brand.
"Addressing complaints that some hybrid drivers get less fuel savings than they expect, Mr. Iacocca said: 'If it delivers on half the promise, do it. Because you can't let Toyota rule the roost here continually...I don't see anything on the horizon short term that can improve fuel economy faster than a hybrid.'
"As for G.M.'s Hummer brand, which it acquired in 1999, he said: 'Hummer, I can't understand. Even though it won't make or break G.M., why would you spend so much money on a nameplate that probably can't go anyplace?'"
Ken
As for using an HH as a getaway car, it's actually perfect. Since you can leave it "running" without an idling engine attracting attention.
1. It must be acquired for your own use and not for resale.
2. Its original use must begin with you.
It doesn't say anything about "owning" it in the strictest sense, so I ("I" meaning a lay person with no professional tax experience) interpret this as saying it's ok to claim the deduction if you lease. Proceed at your own risk.