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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4
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Comments
-Frank P.
I buy based on what I want, but also keep value in mind. I'd like to leave my kids a bit of an inheritance, and even when we do splurge it's on other things (vacations mainly).
Sadly, the appeal you're talking about in #4 is snob appeal for most.
I read this once and thought it was funny - the most common car brand among millionaires is Ford. Perhaps preservation of capital is high on their list of priorities?
Just some thoughts. I see plenty of value in the BMW lineup, mostly sporting value, handling, fun-to-drive, manual trannies in a world where those have become rare. I could care less about the luxury stuff, even if it would fit in with all the luxury cars driven by my neighbors.
-juic
Sam Walton drove a pickup truck. I guess when you're the richest man in the world you no longer feel the need to impress anyone ;-)
-Frank P.
While this may no longer be true, the point is still valid. Except for inherited wealth, fortunes are most often accumulated by people who rarely indulge themselves in glittering, expensive, status-conferring possessions. They're mostly small-business entrepreneurs who are very hard-nosed about seeking value. They shun living beyond their means on the way up, and that's how they got there.
in my neck of the woods there are more S500s than Civics.
The same is true in Hollywood, and on the rosters of every professional sports team. Neither group is known for <cough> financial acumen.
Caviar juice?
That stuff is nasty, not even if it's free!
Spray Cheese in a can?
Just joking, even I don't stoop *that* low.
-juice
And Bill Gates the richest man in the world imported a $1,000,000 Porsche and gives billions to charity. So what? The multi-millionares I know drive everthing from Tahoes to Rolls. The Tahoe people don't blink an eye about spending $2K on some frivolous depreciating asset. Let's see drive a Ford, blow $2K at a whim. Hmmmm. Sounds like the conversation has taken a left turn, in an attempt to prove that non-frugality is the cause of the ills of the earth. I'll bet no one has paid a lot of money for a suit or furniture or walks the talk by getting a really cheapo car because it has a lot of value and can lose a lot in depreciation, and who would care?
/soapbox off.
We paid cash for our last 2 vehicles and easily could have afforded more luxurious rides, but just didn't see the added value because what we got met our needs. No regrets here.
Feel free to think differently.
-juice
??? I can't speak for anyone else, but it's well known that I'm as right wing as one can get.
> in an attempt to prove that non-frugality is the cause of the ills of the earth.
And rightly so. Some of us haven't lost sight of the unarguable fact that the word 'conservative' begins with 'conserve'...
On BMW resale - I have an 01 X5 3.0 that's been a great vehicle, no problems what so ever in 3 years. I leased it and the lease is about up, I've been considering buying it at the end of the lease. It retailed for about $48k when it was new, I can buy it at the end of the lease for $27k. I ran the numbers on it through Edmunds used car values and was amazed how well it's held up. Private party retail is $35,054, dealer retail is $37,861 and as a Certified used car it's $39,211. What got me curious was my BMW dealer has been advertising used 01 3.0 X5's for $38+k - I couldn't believe they were bringing that much, but apparently they are. I was looking at a Touareg and had the VW dealer appraise it just for the heck of it - they offered me $30k without batting an eye and upped it $800 before I left. That's considering negotiating on the price of the V8 Touareg separately - I got them down almost $2k off MSRP on top of the trade in. My X5 is in pristine condition with low miles - so that factors into it somewhat.
So the Bimmer may be one of the cheapest to own when resale is factored in. Plus, I haven't spent a nickle on maintenance in 3 years.
As for the Subie in my garage I bought an 04 STi last year. I was planning to get an M3 but got the STi instead and am totally happy with my choice - the propeller on the hood means nothing to me, I drive what I like. I seriously doubt I'll have a glowing resale report on the Subie in 3 years - but I bet I still have the huge grin on my face :-)
Got it. Do as I say and not as I do!
Let me guess: Your needs don't include ego enhancement?
Not at all sure what you 'got', because that response in no way follows from the line of mine to which you replied.
Most people end up with even lower numbers because they trade the vehicle in, willing to take at hit (except on the sales tax) to bypass the hassle of selling. What's the trade-in on that X5?
Two things to note: (1) significant redesign of a model (for the Forester that would be 2003) tends to undercut the resale value of earlier models. I wonder if the introduction of the X3 will do that to the X5. And (2) for every vehicle there's a jump year (usually 4 or 5) at which point the private party value drops significantly, followed then by a leveling off.
Zman
Resale is hard to figure, because not everyone pays the same price to begin with, and then not everyone sells it for the same price, either.
If you bought and STi and were first on the block, you might even have paid a markup. Today you can find them for $29k. No doubt if you pay $29k today, you'll recover a better % of that 3 years from now.
It's all in your timing, some folks bought '99 Odysseys and then sold them for what they paid 2 years later, or 100% resale. The van was still in hot demand. But today that's no longer the case (Sienna is hot), so resale prices have dropped.
If only we had a crystal ball, eh?
I paid $19.2k for my Forester, 6 years later they sell for $8-10k, about half what I paid. Even worst case scenario, IMO, that's pretty amazing, less than $2k per year depreciation.
Zero out-of-pocket for repairs in 6 years, too. I do maintenance myself so that too adds up to nothing.
-juice
PS Definitely buy your X5, even if you resell it
In terms of frugality, I think the point is that numerous studies (as discussed in the excellent book, "The Millionaire Next Door") show that there is not necessarily a strong correlation between being flashy and being wealthy. High income allows you to be flashy, but true wealth is often associated with having the confidence so that you do not feel the need to impress others with your stuff. There is nothing political about saying that, just as there is nothing wrong with driving a Bimmer if that makes you happy.
You can't justify a $28K Subaru when there are cheaper alternatives. Bring 'em on. Let's talk about 'em. Let's see if a Subaru is really over $10K better than a Hyundai Santa Fe. Let's see if an X3 is $15K better than a Subaru. Let's see if a high-end Cayenne is $60K better than a Subaru. I think once you get down to it, anybody who says they are frugal and gets a Subaru when there are cheaper alternatives is really being two-faced.
The X3 offers me the luxury that I need at a price that I believe is reasonable for what I can afford and what I'm getting.
To be far, the XT is not a bad choice. Your car is fast. Your car gets crappy mileage b/c you got the juiced-up version. Is your car the best handling in crap weather of the 3? maybe. It is better than an audi? Not from what I have seen/driven/experienced. Just accept that you didn't get everything under the sun for 26-28K. If you think that the subie is as safe as a similar car/SAV/SUV that includes more safety technology, then that's your choice. But I disagree. Just that simple.
However, just because I am not an ascetic does not mean that I am two faced or a hypocrite. Buying an automobile is a personal and subjective choice loaded with trade offs. Sure I can buy a Kia Rio or a used Gremlin for much cheaper than my Forester XT, but these vehicles will obviously not have the capabilities of my XT, just as my XT does not have all of the capabilities of an H2 Hummer, Ferrari, Mercedes S Class etc.
The point being that if you compare an XT to a BMW X3, it is my personal and subjective opinion that you are really not getting anything of substance for your additional money, except for that BMW cachet. See counterpoint in the X3 road test in the most recent Car and Driver, where one of the reviewers said essentially the same thing. While the X3 will handle (in terms of grip) better than the XT, according to that review this advantage appears to be more than offset by the poor ride quality.
That is the point of this argument. Some people are willing to pay more for substance but could care less for style. That is what being frugal means to me.
I wasn't taking it that way and was attempting to explain my point of view with sounding snobbish. Value is in the eyes of the beholder, plain and simple. I have a 3-series, I drove the thing twice, I made an opinion that it was worth having over a Subaru, because I enjoy the luxury, amenities and drive over what the Subaru has to offer. I'm sure you enjoy the luxury, amenities and drive over a lesser type of XUV as well. But we will never be able to agree on value, because it is a strictly personal preference. So we should agree these vehicles each offer their respective markets something that would make then desireable.
Oh yeah...as for nav systems...our MDX has what many consider to be the best system out there. Nav is an AWESOME feature that isn't an option for the XT. However, I've heard from a couple MDX owners (with the Nav option) that also have the new Garmin 2610 (for their other car(s))who say that the Garmin is superior in a few ways...and quite a bit cheaper. I'm seriously considering this for my XT.
overtime
I might have thought more of the X3 had I not driven it back-to-back with a Subaru Forester 2.5XT. Yes, the Bimmer is ritzier, offers more niceties, such as a power liftgate and hill-descent control, and handles and brakes in a league above, but it's more than two seconds slower to 60, a lot harsher in the ride department, and about 15 grand more on the bottom line. And as far as I can tell, it doesn't offer any real advantage in rear-seat space, cargo room, or all-weather traction. By itself, the X3 is an able performer, but next to the Forester, it simply seems like an inflated 3-series wagon, in both size and price.
Ouch!
Also of note is that C&D lists the XT, FX and Touareg as alternatives.
-Frank P.
BTW read edmunds review. It's the exact opposite.
Yeah well there's no accounting for taste, after all, Edmunds gave the XT a pretty decent review too :-)
I don't have to pay less for a vehicle I don't want
Boy, you can't argue with that logic.
-Frank P.
But isn't that what this whole converation is about? My needs/wants and your needs/wants.
-Frank P.
It just seems most people(including me) on this comparison are arguing against including the Subie and all the Subie people are trying to justifying otherwise.
I'd rather just compare the FX and the x3 since they are the direct competitors and it would be more revelent, although I have to admit that discussions about social and economical differences can be fun justifying yourselves through a car isn't
-Frank P.
Edit: I realize that the XT is considered by many to also be an over-priced station wagon.
Frank you have to admit there always are a cadre of people who can't understand why you paid y dollars for a car, when their car cost many thousands of dollars less for the SAME EXACT THING. Both gets you from point A to point B. For you the line in the sand is the Subie, others the X3, others the X5, and others the more expensive Cayenne Turbo S (or whatever the designation is). Even if the the Cayenne is .3 seconds quicker to 60, how can somebody spend $60K more to drive the same traffic clogged roads as you at the same rate of speed?
If you want another perspective head on over to the comparo forum for the Porsche, BMW, Cadillac and Infiniti SAVs and find out why people pay many thousands more than you. Mind you, I'm not arguing against your point of view is wrong. But as you don't understand why one would get an X3, a glorified station wagon, people don't understand why you would get a Subaru an overpriced vehicle, when less expensive perfectly capable vehicles can do the EXACT same job.
Granted, these two vehicles offer additional features that the Subie does not, but beyond power windows, locks, mirrors, heated mirrors, cruise control, automatic climate control, heated leather seats, 6 disc in dash cd player, a giant sunroof and toys like a compass and temperature gauge I am pretty well covered from that prospective, and in my opinion anything else is superfluous.
In terms of safety, the Forester may not have side curtain bags, but in all objective measures, the Forester gets top safety ratings. The Forester is competitive in terms of room for people and stuff, and it performs great. So objectively, what do you get for all the extra money? And don't fall back on the old image / prestige or other squishy or touchy feely qualities. This is the meat of this discussion and this is why some presumably crazy person added a Subaru into this mix.
I like the looks, interior, road handling, smooth revving engine and xdrive. That's it. Ain't no more. It's very simple. I'm willing to pay the extra premium for this vehicle. I don't care if the Subie beats in the straight line.
-Frank P.
Just for the confused who have never bothered to actually look at the car...the XT with premium package has pretty nice materials and fit and finish is outstanding. On par with my old (MY2000) Passat wagon...which is something I didn't expect going in to look at the subie. No, it doesn't have that "German" teutonic feel to it but that is pretty subjective. Yes, I have sat on the inside of a X3...sorry...not impressed...expected A LOT more.
Sorry if it chafes your hide that the XT is being compared to your precious wanna-be-lux mini AWD SUVs. Not only that...but it excels where the others don't...in performance which is PRECISELY the marketing of the FX and X3.
For someone like me the choice is lux and prestige OR higher performance and SLIGHTLY less lux (I'll emphasize that again in case you think the XT is put together with tape and the extra materials from grandma's curtains).
1. Lux. I like lux...the MDX (our other car) has lots of lux features. Not a high priority for me but still very nice. And the materials and fit/finish of the XT would surprise you (NO. they didn't kill the neighbors dog to make the leather seats).
2. Prestige. Don't have any need for it. Not trying to pick up chicks or impress my neighbors. I am the type of person that deflects attention where possible but excels where it counts (for instance, I'm a very good triathlete but I don't go around advertising that fact. Oops...guess I just did to make a point ;-) ).
3. Performance. I want a fun car to drive and that means it has to be quick. The XT is very quick...obscenely quick. And not like the WRX that has to be thrashed...it has outstanding low end torque and then the turbo spools up(!!!). Handling is another area where 'fun-to-drive' enters the equation. Even if it is MUCH safer to push the limits of acceleration versus handling. Stock, the XT comes ready to tackle nastier winter conditions than the other two cars so it sacrifices some handling there. However, you can spend a grand on high performance tires and wheels (like the X3 and FX have) and beefier sway bars you have an entirely different beast. No, you don't have to 'rice-out' the vehicle to get this performance. Its a simple Plus One on the wheels and a sway bar upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised if Subaru offers this as a stock option in the future.
4. Techno wiz gadgets. Ok...I like these too. Traction control is missing from the XT and that is a negative. No other way to slice it. Navigation would be nice to have as an option but as I delineated in my previous post I'm pretty happy with the current portable options on the market. Other techno gadgets don't really matter compared to those. Sure, a heated steering wheel would be nice but does anyone REALLY care?
overtime
Why does anyone need any of that and pay extra for it? manual windows, locks, mirrors,climate control and cassete player can work just as well. For the rest just wear warmer clothes, bring a compass, thermometer and napkin to wipe your side mirrors and your set.
heres my answer: comfort and convenience
To me the XT is a fast station wagon/SUV but not a direct competitor. The only justification for it is its speed and cheaper price. In and by itself that is great but compared with the FX and X3 both of which has more creature features and comforts, definitely more refinement and quietness, torquy and powerful non-turbo engine, great handling annnnnnnnnd yes! prestige, the XT is really left with not much more reason for being here.
Part of the attraction of the XT is that nobody knows about it. I tell people "I got a Forester. Its fun to drive and meets my needs." Unless someone prys a lot further (ie. "Does it have much pickup?" or "Oh those are nice but aren't they boring to drive?) and has some knowledge of Foresters (ie "Huh...I heard Subaru put a turbo in one of those.") they will never learn about its speed. Its not in my nature to flaunt and I'm sorry if that isn't sinking in at all.
Not only do I think the XT belongs in the comparo but based on MY wish list I'd take it over either the FX35 or X3 even if they were all priced the same (say they were all $26k). I'll admit that I would probably take the FX45 in the same scenario...but even that isn't a 100% sure thing. :-)
What creature feature and comforts are you referring to precisely? I don't weigh them all the same. I don't think either the FX or X3 has a very powerful engine...or I should say an engine that propels the vehicle quickly. The XT blows them both away in that department. I would agree that the XT is probably a little louder on the road. Gotta love the boxer engine though!
overtime
Let me count the ways....On second thought, forget it. This statement is ludicrous.
Zman
Real defensive street driving I have never had a problem. Since to me I don't need the bragging rights, I'll take the butt to 60 rights. The BMW is a classier car. Surly the concept of upscale doesn't escape anybody here. To say the BMW is not more upscale is a flat out lie to yourself. To say anyone of us doesn't like upscale things is also a flat out lie. To say some of us, don't car if our car is upscale, ahhhh, that is another story, than admit it and let's move on.
-Frank P.
Got it. So if a blown-out Hyundai Elantra bests your XT your ego would take a beating then? Because it competes favorably in the area of performance. I fully understand.
Maybe it's just me but there's no way I'll ever be convinced that the X-3 is 50% more capable/better than the XT.
-Frank P.
I'm thinking about cancelling my subscription since you can read it online.
btw, Juice, Bill got his Porsche out of customs a year or two ago. Some guy got Bill's and a few others certified so they'd be street legal. Like everything, Bill always gets it done - sometimes it takes a version or two to get the bugs out :-)
Steve, Host
Seems like in the fervor to justify the Subie=BMW-50% more there is a bit of defensive from the Subie camp. At any rate, this has turned into a my car is better than your car and it costs less conversation. OK, I can deal with that, cause I know it's in YOUR HUMBLE OPINION.
When I looked at things I wanted in a car, including safety, room, performance and light off road or inclement weather capability, reliability and durability and a good level of creature comforts, I could not find anything that compared for the price. If you know of any vehicle that stands toe to toe with the XT for the price or less of the XT please let me know.
In my humble opinion, when you look at a certain price of car (mid $20s to about $30) you can get some great cars that are leaders in their classes. To change things up for a second, look at a loaded Honda Accord with V6, leather, and all the options. Sure you can pay more for a luxury sedan, but once you reach a certain level there is a sharply declining marginal utility associated with what you pay.
As an example, is an E-Class Mercedes or a BMW 540i twice as good as that loaded Honda? I don't think so. That is how I also feel about the relationship between the XT and the X3 and the FX 35. But as passionate and informed as many Subaru fans are, it appears that we are in the minority based upon what people are actually buying. I chalk that up to weak marketing from Subaru as opposed to any shortcomings from the car.
In my mind nothing on the road has the performance, features and style of the FX. I guess that is why you don't see us on this thread trying to "justify" our purchase. Are there better alternatives sure but to me they costs tons more.
The same reason you bought your XT is the reason I bought my FX. I couldn't justify spending 4k more on the V8 or 8k more on the X5 or 15k more on the cayenne. Because the FX35 met all my needs at a price point I was comfortable with.
I can understand the appeal of the x3 3.0 (the 2.5 is ludicrous just lke a cayenne v6) I have driven one and it is a delight. I however find the interior tacky and it costs the same as my car while lacking many of the features.
Therefore I am very happy with my purchase. If speed and cargo carrying capability is your thing go for the XT no bones about it it is a good ride but it doesn't have the features or style I was looking for.
Style is a lot different than prestige. Target sells stylish stuff that has no prestige and there are plenty of prestigous stuff to me that has no style. I just hope you guys enjoy your XT's and X3's a quarter of the amount I enjoy my FX.
I agree it's tough making a value choice. C&D did a comparo a while back: Is an 320AMG better than two Hondas? Their answer is if you want a Mercedes AMG nothing from Honda will ever come close, but both get you from point a to b, albiet one has more style, class, costs more and is a better performer. Take that thought and take it to where car a cost 10 to 20 times as much as car b. Take that thought and apply it to this conversation.