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Comments
To me that argument holds little water. In essence I could have bought an XT that can outrun my FX anyday. But would I have been happy with it hell no. I wanted an FX plain and simple. The style is like no other vehicle out there. The features are those found only in cars costing 20k more.
I'm not an infiniti fanatic either. Right now I think the sedan to beat is the new TL. Again more performance and features than a 530i at 10k off. but would a wrx be a better buy to me again no.
I don't autoX I drive to work. I like style features and performance. I don't ever think I will own the fastest car in the class for any automobile I buy. Because often for the greater performance you have to sacrifice something else. Laws of diminishing returns. If I set a budget limit of 30k I may have bought an XT but my budget limit was 40k so I go the FX.
The Acura NSX is from Honda, and I'd far rather have that than anything Daimler-Benz has built since around 1960.
Another example of why it's good there are so many cars from which to choose; we all have different tastes. To me, the FX style is one of its principal shortcomings. I wouldn't be interested in one at half its price.
Maybe you can pick one up for $50K. If I were spending $90K on a car, I would up the ante and get the S600. But that's me.
-Frank P.
What does the S600 weigh - 5,000#? I don't ever want a vehicle that weighs over 3,500#, max. Less is more. That's why the 3,200# F-XT was so appealing.
But that's just me.
You can't compare an SRT-4 to a Boxter, but you certainly could compare a Pontiac Solstice to a Boxster. People certainly will.
Thing is, these are all performance compact SUVs. So they'll get grouped together whether you like it or not.
On the low end of the spectrum, you could even add the Saturn Vue Redline, 250hp, lowered, 18" rims, etc. In this case the interior isn't up to par, but it stills falls into the same category. Call it entry-level performance compact SUV, while the Bimmer and Infiniti would be in the premium side of this segment.
Forester falls somewhere in the middle. Note that Saab used the Forester's interior for the 9-2x because it was deemed nice enough for an upscale brand.
Subaru offers value by giving an interior closer to the premium brands for the price of the Saturn, so it sort of bridges the gap.
-juice
The subie people here seem to tout value as this end all be all. However if you do serious off roading a vehicle more capable could pose more value. Also if you have a long commute the value could be in the refinement and ammenities a vehicle offers. If you tow there could be value had there. The point is no vehicle is the best vehicle. It is up to the individual to pick the best vehicle for them.
I do Value style my last car was a 300M which I thought was one of the best looking sedans produced (the 300C is horrendous). However my second vehicle right now is a honda pilot that has no style yet plenty of functionality at a great price. So I sacrificed style for fuction there.
Every vehicle purchase is different when my daughter is old enough to drive I will be shopping used beetles. Is it something I would normally shop no but each time you set out to buy a vehicle it could be for a different purpose.
Thats why I am glad I live in America where we have the means and the choices to make our lives that much more interesting.
The point being is that cars have gotten so much better lately that I still stand behind my statement that it is difficult to objectively justify spending much more than $30K on a car. Spend any more and basically doing it for hard to quantify subjective reasons. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that, because the market obviously supports the sales of these premium brands.
RE Juice's prior comments - the comparisons between vehicles need to stay between classes. Porche Boxters don't compete with Neons. But they do compete with MR2s, Honda S2000s, and arguably Nissan Maximas or Mazda RX8s, and again in my opinion, it is hard to objectively justify these price differences between these vehicles and a Porche. But now I'm beating a dead horse so I will shut up.
I'd like to propose $20K for those frugal at heart. I too stand by my belief that value is in the eye of the beholder, and I can't judge by your value system and you can't judge by mine. Even it you are rich and wealthy, have everything paid for, trusts for the kids/grandkids, there is always money to be given away by buying one thing of less value than the other comparable item and giving the difference away.
So instead of a $30K Subie, by a $15K Hyundai and give away the $15K grand.
I'd also probably agree that the Vue Redline could be added to this comparo because of the way it is marketed (and the way it performs).
Again, I'm not saying the XT is a "better car" than the FX or X3...just better for me and my car budget was high enough to buy any of them. I valued butt to 60 over anything else and the XT came out on top. Now if only I could get the dang climate control to behave! ;-)
Still waiting to hear what tech widgets the FX and X3 have (beyond what I've mentioned). XM? heated steering wheel? Tire pressure sensor? I do like the X3's moonroof a lot but the XT matches that.
overtime
overtime
If somebody gave me a dollar for every Cayenne that ever actually does any serious off-roading, I wouldn't have enough money to buy a Starbucks. Not that I'd ever buy a Starbucks; like a lot of upper-crust cars, they're overpriced.
The subie people here seem to tout value as this end all be all. However if you do serious off roading a vehicle more capable could pose more value.
You might find the Subaru Australia forums interesting. People there go places in their Foresters that 80% of hard-core SUV's can't reach.
Otherwise this topic would be titled Murano vs. X3 2.5 vs. Forester XS.
I think you have to factor in handling, fun-to-drive, tossability, etc. And then there are the practical aspects, of course.
Something intersting about Subaru demographics - many buyers could afford far more expensive vehicles, but choose not to.
I would love to have a competitor in this class for $20k. Show me a performance compact SUV at that price and I'll buy it tomorrow.
-juice
Interesting that the same is said about the Accord and the 3-series. In other words a number of these other buyers could afford more expensive vehicles, but chose not to.
What did stop me from buying it was that the styling resulted in a very restricted rear vision wich I cannot feel comfortable with. If it were not for that limitation of my vision I would get the FX, most likely the 35 since I want a softer suspension.
Keyless Go
Laser Cruise
Navigation
DVD Video
Power tilt telescoping wheel
2 position seat memory
Tire Presure Monitoring
(available Xm or Sirrus)
Side curtain air bags
Vehicle dynamic Control
Traction Control
Brake Assist
Preview Braking
Electronic Brake force Distribution
Bose six disc changer (300watt)
Brick leather interior
5 speed auto with manual shift
Rear View camera
auto up and down driver and passenger windows
20" Wheels/tires
Aluminum drilled pedals
real aluminum trim interior
driver & passenger power seats
I think that is about it. Does all that add up to 14k probably not but when you throw it together in a beautiful package it is a screaming bargain.
X3 looks interesting. I sat in one and I might say it's half a step above the Forester in interior materials, but even then some materials are better and others are worse. Size is very close. I'd have to drive it to choose. The XT "wowed" me substantially so the bar is set very high for BMW, since the snob appeal does nothing for me.
FX looks great on the road, they've grown on me. Visibility was awful, though. Space is heavily biased towards passengers vs. cargo, also. The shape isn't practical enough for me, so it wouldn't make my short list, which is a shame.
-juice
Leather is an option and let's not forget that even loaded up with an extended warranty and pre-paid maintenance you'd still be substantially lower in price.
-juice
The Subie EJ257 made the list. So did the Nissan 3.5l VQ (again). BMW's 3.2l from the M3 did, but the 3.0l fell off the list.
-juice
Keyless Go - I assume this is some way to start the car without inserting a key. Kinda neat. Does it save much time in practice? I'm curious.
Laser Cruise - I never use cruise control (even on the MDX). Never. Cruise control is a totally wasted feature to me on ANY car.
Navigation - this carries a LOT of weight but the new portable unit from Garmin even beats the class leading MDX Nav in many areas (as I mentioned before). Nav simply rocks. How is the Infiniti Nav (again, I'm curious because the Acura Nav is unbelievable).
DVD Video - important for my family cruiser (MDX has it). No use whatsoever for my personal transportation. We don't take extended trips with the kid(s) in the XT.
Power tilt telescoping wheel - this is important if the seating position and steering wheel don't 'sync up'. I fit perfectly in the XT driver seat relative to the steering wheel so this feature has zero value.
2 position seat memory - again...I like this feature a LOT but only if the car is frequently driven by two people. The MDX has it because my wife and I both drive it but my wife almost never drives the XT. No value having it in the XT (for us).
Tire Pressure Monitoring - this would be a nice feature to have...not sure how much weight I'd give it though.
Side curtain air bags - would be nice but the XT has best in class test scores so I don't put too much weight on this parameter.
Vehicle dynamic Control/Stability control - this is fairly important and the XT is lacking (as I mentioned before).
Brake Assist - eh? I'm not a 90lb weakling and I know how to drive and properly use ABS. The XT brakes work fine even if they are a little "mushy" in my book. The XT could have better brake 'feel'. Please notice I'm very open to discussing what I feel are the shortcomings (or things that could be improved) of my car.
Electronic Brake force Distribution - XT has this.
Bose six disc changer (300watt) - XT has equivalent (in-dash changer) but a few less watts
Brick leather interior - XT has a nice leather interior.
5 speed auto with manual shift - 5spd auto is generally better but the XT weighs so little it really doesn't need it. I was cruising up and down the Sierras in the XT (both fully loaded and fully unloaded) and not once did it hunt for the right gear. And having only 4spds certainly isn't affecting performance
Rear View camera - this is a good feature especially on bigger cars with poor rear-ward visibility. I'm glad my MDX has it and I'm sure its very useful on the field-of-vision impaired FX. However, the XT has tremendous visibility and is a small vehicle so the added utility is marginal at best.
auto up and down driver and passenger windows - again, only useful on field-of-vision challenged vehicles like the MDX and I'm sure WAY moreso in the FX. FOV isn't too bad on the MDX.
20" Wheels/tires - not a tech gadget but more a styling issue. Thats like me saying the XT isn't as wide or tall as the FX.
Aluminum drilled pedals - styling issue.
real aluminum trim interior - styling issue.
driver & passenger power seats - a good feature if you frequently adjust your seat position. Not so cool if you 'set-it-and-forget-it' (like I do in the XT).
In summary, most of those 'high tech' features don't add value to me (for my particular situation). It should be noted that I do have a lot of those features on the family hauler and I consider them important on that vehicle.
The features I really wish the XT had are Stability Control and Side curtain airbags (even though XT crash test scores are best in class). A 'cool' feature would be the tire pressure sensor. Do those equate to the loss of performance in MY book? Nope. YMMV.
overtime
Besides, IIHS gave Forester its best score so far. Let someone trump that score before we ask for changes, until then I wouldn't change a thing.
Stability Control is glaringly missing from the options list, though.
-juice
Ed
Nav system is nice. It has a unique birds eye view and auto switches background for day and night. It has been verry accurate and has a pretty complete database. I would rank it above toyota/lexus but slightly behind Honda/Acura. It does not have voice recognition in the FX.
Preview braking uses the sensor for the Intelligent Cruise Control (laser) to pre prime the breaks when it senses you fast approaching another object. This in theory wil increase breaking force and decrease breaking distance. The FX also is the shortest stopping SUV ever tested by car and driver.
It also earned extremely high crash test scores in every test it has been subjected to. and is an IIHS best pick.
Ed
Ride- The ride indeed could be improved. Not looking for lexus like but BMW has learned how to make a car with good handling and ride quality.
Nav system- Being able from the factory (there is a mod for this) to be able to input destinations if a passenger is in the car. Voice activation. When searching for a specific place list those closest and go out from there (lists all in state right now).
better entrance/exit to the rear seats - a drawback to our huge wheels is a large wheel well that hinder entry/exit to the rear seat.
Other than those that is it. I have had some build quality problems with my FX (hatch, squeaky seat) but I have had no mechanical problems of any type. I have an early build FX of a vehicle in it's first model year so that is to be expected. Those with 04's report none of the problems us early adopters had.
I have no problems with visibility, gas consumption or the amount of cargo or passenger space. Can the FX be improved yes. I do love it the way it is though.
The one thing I like is that infinti listens to it's consumers. One of the big problems people were having was that the passenger seat didn't have a height adjustment. They added that in '04. Also we owners wanted the choice of factory chrome wheel and to be able to get the nav without the dvd system both of those were changed. They also let you get the 35 with all the tech package but with the 18" wheels if the ride was too sporty for you. So I like that they listen to what the consumers want.
I'd have to question the pre-view braking feature (even if I never use cruise control) because that seems to imply that your brake pedal/braking action is going to respond differently in different situations. Theoretically that would seem to be VERY dangerous but I don't know how it would work out in a real-world situation. Have you ever experienced it?
overtime
The preview braking seem to prime the other systems (abs, brake assist) but does not do anything until you push the pedal.
overtime
X3/FX guys: "Tastes Great!" XT guys: "Less Filling!"
X3/FX guys: "Tastes Great!" XT guys: "Less Filling!"
X3/FX guys: "Tastes Great!" XT guys: "Less Filling!"
Bob <getting snockered on this thread
"Performance on the order of an American musclecar, without the stigma of low price."
I loved that "stigma of low price" line then, and think it explains a lot about why people willingly pay beaucoup bucks for their high-end motorcars.
Subaru could easily adapt that headline to the 13.8-second-quartermile XT, but turning it on its head..."without the needless extravagance of an exotic price."
I agree that as a premium brand Infinity tends to offer good (oh no - here is that terrible word again) value. And while we can sit here and debate the merits of the individual features that Clpurnell listed, overall they certainly add to the overall appeal of the vehicle. That and a higher level of finish and presumably less noise help to explain the price gap between the pricing of the XT and the FX, although I also believe that if you have not seen the interior of the XT, you would be pleasantly surprised.
I'll admit that I think the exterior of the XT is kind of bland. While the styling of the FX is somewhat controversial, at least it has styling, which in itself is a great thing. I only hate that it costs some function in terms of cargo space and visibility (hence the need for parking aids).
In any case, this raises the level of discourse beyond nebulous terms such as "prestige". In terms of the X3, I have to admit that as a big fan of Car & Drive magazine, which I have been reading for over 25 years since being in Junior High, their negative review has biased me against this vehicle. If any BMW fans want to make an objective case for this vehicle, I am all ears.
The collary to that, is you can see why people might like/love the vehicle.
There is definitely merit to debating the opinions of magazines that do this for a living. You may decide some objective/subjective attributes in the mag article strike a nerve with you and this vehicle is not/or is for you.
However, I would say that before one leaps to the conclusion the ride is jiggly or really doesn't handle well, one has to take the thing out for a ride. I did twice. Unfortunately I couldn't get the 6 speed to drive.
It felt like it gave nothing up to my 3-series, except some 0-60. And more importantly the xdrive was not some hype invented by BMW. After flogging this in an empty snow/ice parking lot I was totally impressed. The interior was all 3-series, which is a cut above the Subies. There are less tech gadgets than the FX. Although, when I built the car with my sales rep, there were an abundance of options I did not want on the vehicle, including park distance control and heated steering wheel. The price was comesurate with my current vehicle.
So while I haven't driven the Subie/FX, of which I am sure they are a blast, the handling/look and feel of the vehicle appealed to me. Enough to make me think it warrants a premium over the Subie, just like the 3-series warrants a premium over the WRX, even though the WRX is faster to 60.
Those that don't understand will never understand, those that do understand great.
BTW the demo car in the showroom had a bike rack and bike standing in the hatch with the back seats down. I thought there was room aplenty in that vehicle, even though the luxury level (by design) is less than the X5.
I couldn't seem to convince a friend of mine who bought the previous generation Range Rover that in terms of interior and cargo space, it was inferior to most compact SUVs. I can't remember the figures off hand, but both back seat up or back seat down the cargo room was less than a Forester. She justified her purchase by saying that she needed something big to haul the kids around in. And no, it has never had a tire off the pavement. Oh well.
Keyless Go - Sounds neat and should get lots of use
Laser Cruise - Rarely use cruise due to hvy traffic volume and would have to test it before deciding whether I liked it
Navigation - I actually prefer the old fashion map but I can see where this is a handy thing to have for the navigationally impaired (just so long as it's an option)
DVD Video - I have a problem with cars as rolling movie theaters so this does nothing for me
Power tilt telescoping wheel - I think the "power" feature is a bit ridiculous but I'm highly in favor of having the telescoping capability and would definitely pay extra for it
2 position seat memory - This fits in the "nice to have" category.
Tire Presure Monitoring - Not sure how much value this adds but I gather the majority of the public "never" checks their TP so a monitoring system could be a good thing
(available Xm or Sirrus) - If the service was free I'd take it, otherwise I'm happy with my 18 pre-sets
Side curtain air bags - Do they offer much additional protection over seat-mounted side airbags with head protection? Doubt I'd pay extra for them.
Vehicle dynamic Control - I suppose it couldn't hurt but I wouldn't pay extra for it
Traction Control - See above :-)
Brake Assist - what's it do again? Doubt I need it
Preview Braking - Interesting concept but I think I'll pass for now (sounds like we're heading down the "car can drive by itself" road)
Electronic Brake force Distribution - Got it.
Bose six disc changer (300watt) – Already have the in-dash 6-CD changer and 120 watts are plenty for me
Brick leather interior - What's the significance of "Brick" leather?
5 speed auto with manual shift - A good thing if you like automatic trannys. Too bad Infiniti didn't see fit to offer a 6-speed manual :-(
Rear View camera - No vehicle I'll ever buy will need this feature
auto up and down driver and passenger windows - Yes absolutely
20" Wheels/tires - No way, no how, not even if they were free! (but then I’m not into the whole style thing)
Aluminum drilled pedals - Nice touch but wouldn't pay extra (FYI: the $20k WRX has the same thing)
real aluminum trim interior - Another nice touch but at this price point you would certainly hope for the real thing
driver & passenger power seats - Definite nice to have item
Quite the impressive list really with a number of items I wouldn’t mind having and a few I’d be willing to pay extra for. I might even allow myself to be convinced that taken altogether, they’re worth the $13k price differential from the XT. But then I checked the pricing on Edmunds and discovered that many of these are optional items and a FX fully loaded with all these gizmos is close to $50k! So we’re no longer talking 50% more expensive but 100% more, Ouch!
-Frank P.
Zman
Could be, and another telling sign is that my identity crisis has gotten worse. Yesterday I drove my BMW to pick up a six pack of Fosters... you know, that rough-and-tumble-back-street-bar Aussie beer. Then, this morning I took the Subie to Starbucks for a Toffee Nut Latte.
Furthermore, I can't remember which manufacturer gives the 4-yr/50k mi. free maintenance. There's not one mention of it around here. Guess it's not that important. Like Andre Agassi says... image is everything. Was that Canon? Jeez, I have an Olympus... man, I really have to get my act together.
That (or a close approximation) is what came with my sister's '03 Audi A4.
That said, Subies are pretty reliable as far as I can see. My Outback with 51k miles has cost me only for brakes and routine oil changes. Is it enough to justify the price differential with BMWs. Hardly. But with regard to all new BMWs you pay zippo in maintenaince cost those first three or four years... great deal if you're not into long-term ownership.
BTW, I thought your Starbucks crack was funny. Actually I used to share your opinion until I reasoned it this way. A drink at an average restaurant costs about five bucks. A Starbucks concoction costs about three... pretty good deal in my book. And you REALLY have to try that Toffee Nut Latte!
;-)
To the Subophiles, it doesn't make a difference. Why, then say it?
Not sure what the Subie warranty is But infiniti is 4yr/60k miles and 5/70k on powertrain. Free loaners for service and service costs less than what I paid for a chrysler (3750 service $34, 7500 $64 incl tire rotation). In 13k miles and 9 months my total service expenditure has been about $120. I have gotten an infinti loaner for each and every service and a wait to get an appointment of no more than 5 days.
I have been very happy with my dealer service and it has been a night and day experience from my 30k chrysler I owned (will never do that again).
The BMW does include free service but so does my local dealer (2 yrs) if you buy from them (I bought out of town to save 3k). But the total cost for 4 years of service will probably be less than 1k so it's not that big of a deal to me. My question to BMW owners does free maintenace include tires. If it does it might be worth while cuz as you could imagine 20" V rated tires don't come cheap and have a poor tread life.