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Comments
Nobody can argue with the inherent flawlessness of that!
No Fair!
s(mirk)rp
overtime
Flawless logic
-Forester: legs splayed with knees against the front seat-backs. United, with the person in front of you reclining their seat.
-X3: knees not even touching the front seat-backs. In fact, I can extend my legs. Business Class
I'm 6'4" with size 14 shoes, and two kids in child-car seats. So rear-seat room is a nice thing. The Forester and my WRX wagon, for that matter, have a decent amount of legroom for cars with 99" wheelbases, but it's hard to compete with the significantly longer wheelbase of the X3.
I need 38" of head room to fit comfortably. I also like to do track days in the WRX, and it is one of the few cars I can fit in with a helmet on. No, I would not take the X3 to the track, but I would take the Legacy GT.
But that's just me.
Martin
Wait a minute. Maybe the answer is to buy the XT (I've given up on the X3--not worth it--and the FX--worthless, no MT). OK. Should I wait for the Outback XT or just go ahead and get The Forester XT? I need some time and space to think this through.
Zman
I like eating at Ruth’s Chris but seldom eat there unless someone else is picking up the tab. Their steaks and garlic-mashed potatoes are wonderful but no way they’re 10 times as nice. As far as the ambiance goes, I must be a blue-collar guy at heart because I actually prefer the laidback atmosphere at Outback to the stuffed suits at the high-end establishments.
Seems like there's quite the furor to prove the Subaru is better for $10K less.
kdshapiro- Huh? Seems to me that the FX and X-3 owners are the ones having a hard time proving that their vehicle of choice is worth the extra $12-13k :-)
While the XT is unarguably faster and is at least comparable in several other areas, it can’t compete in the luxury amenities area nor does it have the name cache’. However, I certainly think that dollar for dollar, the XT is a better value and may be the best choice for people who value performance, utility, AWD capability and reliability. For others who place a premium on creature comforts, styling and name-brand recognition, the X-3 or FX may be worth the price.
-Frank P.
Maybe the answer is simply to buy the XT (I've given up on the X3--not worth it--and the FX--worthless, no MT). OK. Should I wait for the '05 Outback XT or just go ahead and get the '04 Forester XT? After all, it's been snowing for 48 hours here, and there's no indication it's going to end any time soon.
Zman
My guess: They're mostly in IT and can quickly toggle their screens back and forth to pretend that they're actually working. [ducks and runs]
Ed
starting a 10pm eastern time, for the next 24 hours, everyone on the board post what they think zmna should buy(no fair posting under differient names).
zman, just total up the votes tomorrow night, and you'll have your new vehicle picked out.
after that, we will probably need another poll to see what features you should get.
i vote for the explorer - get a v8 - you won't regret it.
Then for the price of 3 ice filled glasses with a little bit of scotch residue of uncertain origin at those overpriced places, I can buy a whole bottle of 18-year old single malt scotch that I will heartily share with my friends that I am entertaining. That is what I consider value.
Oh, but I guess I am a two-faced hypocrite because if I really wanted to save money I can get an even cheaper meal of hamburger helper and Miller Lite.
I don't have to prove anything. I just go out and buy it.
"I can buy a better cut of meat from the butcher, season it better, and go outside and grill it better."
Actually you can't as these places have private aging facilities. A butcher cannot do this, even the best NY butcher.
-Frank P.
Hey I just figured that I could eat out at one of those hoity toity steak joints once a week for a year with the money I saved by buying the XT over one of its hoity toity competitors. Nah, the food's still not worth it :-)
-Frank P.
I'm game; you guys decide for me. Can I request a couple of qualifications--four-wheel or all-wheel capabilities and have room for two big dogs (MT also preferred)? If not, fine. I'll take whatever.
I've got another long day of work ahead of me, and I won't be home until about 9:30 or 10 this evening.
Look forward to the results. Right now the Explorer V8 is in the lead!!!
Zman
DaveM
DaveM
Man, how many ways are there to burn money on cars?
Three Elantras for 1 XT.
I love dining out and do so at least twice a week. While I've never been to Outback (hate their ads), I've never in my life paid more than $30 per person, and can't see any earthly reason to ever do so. $200 per person? I wouldn't go there if I had a 4-for-1 coupon.
You're a larger-than-average dude, and your comments and comparisons between Forester and X3 are interesting - but are inconsistent with the actual, objective numbers. The Forester has more, not less headroom, and more, not less combined front-rear legroom. Those being the facts, it's hard to see how they reconcile with your comments. Additionally, I personally would not expect any vehicle of reasonable outside dimensions to simultaneously provide space in both front and back for 6'4" adults in each position. That would require a larger, heavier vehicle than I'd ever be willing to buy.
OK, I'll use the steak analogy.
The Palm is a top of the line Range Rover. Sorry, your X3 is not even the stuff in the doggy bag at the Palm. Please, get over yourself.
If the Forester XT is a steak at Outback, let's call it a nice London Broil, turbo charged with spicey blackened seasoning. The X3 is a steak on the same menu, just pricier. Maybe it's a Rib Eye.
But with slower service! LOL
X3 is near-luxury, not full-on luxury. Production is outsourced so it's not even really made in a BMW plant.
Palm and Ruth's Chris are big, fat, V8 steaks. A V8 X5 might qualify, but certainly not a mere I-6 X3, heaven forbid. This is the SUV the elite will buy for their kids, not themselves.
-juice
-juice
I have one question for you subie guys though. If Kia came out with an awd turbo wagon that did 0-60 in 6.3 with an auto for 19k would it inherently be better than your XT. Would you run down and trade your Forrester. Or why aren't you guys running out to pick up pt cruiser turbos they are 7-8k cheaper and with 0% interest. Ahhh you mean there is more than just $/hp you consider. Have a nice day.
It seems that esthetics are becoming more important to the boomers and they are looking for something more upscale in appearance.
I applaud the Infiniti styling for its boldness, individuality, and uniqueness. While it may not appeal to everyone it is nice to see a fresh design. It handles like a sportscar, great exhaust note, and can be acquired with reasonable options for approximately $35,000 after discount. The FX does not seem to be selling that well probably a function of its narrow appeal. What do you all feel the resale value would be?
I had a chance to drive the new BMX X3 a couple of days ago any thought the handling and ride were very much like a BMW which is great. Solid, exceptional handling, felt like it was chisled from a block of steel.
The styling is mixed IMO with somewhat of a downscale appearance. Those black bumpers are really cheap looking and do not really flow with the body like the Jeep Liberty for example. The door handles on the inside look terrible, the stereo has mediocre sound, the map compartments are cheap nets, the lower rocker panels will dirty your pants legs every time. They stick out to far. But is has that wonderful BMW handling and cachet and the 48 month free maintainance.
Somehow, I think the guy is missing the point, and because the point is so obvious, I can only conclude that he's being deliberately obtuse. So be it.
Set the front seat of either vehicle to a comfortable position for anyone over 6' tall, then get in the back seat. I've done this, and there is no comparison; the X3 has gobs more space. Were I a bachelor, I would buy the XT in a heartbeat. FWIW, I am a Suby fanatic. Am currently on my 5th Suby wagon, and was raised in a family that always had a Suby in the carport since 1982.
Forester gets alloy blocks and aluminum on the hood, hatch, roof rails, and front and rear bumper beams.
I believe that performance is a package, not just the engine, even though that is one of the primary ingredients. So start with forged pistons and a semi-closed deck block and a no-lag turbo, but add a light/stiff structure, good weight balance, WRC proven AWD, good brakes, and neutral handling.
The PT Turbo doesn't really have any of those now, does it?
That car is about as relevant to this thread as a bicycle.
We are *not* saying that power alone makes a performance SUV, it's the whole package.
-juice
those of you who are attracted to the styling of the Sub are fortunate.
Speaking only for myself, styling isn't even on my top-ten list of priorities. Therefore, although I consider the Forester to be homely as all getout, that was no disadvantage. In the turbocharged version, it has fabulous performance, plus outstanding AWD, reasonable interior space and appointments for the size and price, a reputation for durability, longevity, and moderate repair requirements, provides outstanding outward visibility (one of the most important safety features any vehicle can offer),can go places some other crossover/mini-SUV vehicles can't, is truly wonderful in snow, and so forth. Those were the attributes that attracted my money, and the money (less than $24,000 out the door) was very reasonable for the package.
When I say style isn't on my list, that's not to say it has no effect at all. I would not, for example, buy a Pontiac Aztek no matter how good or how big the cash rebate. Same goes for a Honda Element or Chev Avalanche. I won't reward automakers who deliberately go out of their way to build gag-inducing ugliness into their products. Fortunately, the Forester is at least innocuous and inconspicuous, neither of which can be said of the Aztek or Element.
As for the alleged styling advantage of the Infiniti FX, I don't like its look - at all. I abhor the current trend to extremely high fenderlines with correspondingly narrow (top-to-bottom) glass, a la Hummer H2. It impairs visibility and makes already-too-heavy vehicles look even heavier and more ponderous than they are.
FX's "bionic cheetah" styling is polarizing, heck even the name is quirky. I happen to like it, though I do feel it's shape compromises both visibility and utility.
The X3 has its quirks, it's actually one of Bangle's least ugly designs, but it's not exactly flowing and beautiful. I don't find it ugly, but it's not going to turn heads either. The best feature it has is the propellor badge on the grille. Rumor has it Bangle will be history within the year. Too bad they didn't fire him sooner, I say.
The Forester looks like a tall wagon on steroids. I like the D-pillar and how it's echoed in the rear hatch, but the nose leaves much to be desired.
This is purely subjective, so to each his/her own.
-juice
You did fiddle with the Forester's vertical driver-seat adjustment, right?
The Forester is known far and wide for providing more legroom and more headroom for bigger drivers than most vehicles out there. If you use all of the available seat travel and lots of backrest angle, of course there won't be much space in the seat behind - but that's going to be true of just about any compact vehicle, and moreso with most than with the Forester.
This isn't just my opinion; every X3 review or test I've read specifically commented on its less-than-generous seating space, particularly in front.
Unless that changed dramatically, I still say no, Kia would not compete in this class.
I'm curious, what's the curb weight range of the FX and the X3? Performance, weight is thy enemy.
-juice
Among the Forester's best features are its slim pillars all around. They not only look good (trim, graceful, athletic), but more importantly, they also reduce dangerous blind spots compared to almost anything out there.
Form follows function. Why can't more automotive designers catch onto that?
Actually the ones that are the most agressive are the Hummer drivers, followed by some of the big SUVs. I've been pushed off the road by them. People who drive S500/S600 are very agressive as well. I like generalizations, they point out the TRUTH.
By the way, I saw an ad last night during a basketball game. My friend asked me what kind of car is was. Not really focusing on the tv I said it looks like a Pontiac Vibe.
It was an X3.
atlgadxt - good you got my point. The statement "BMW drivers are agressive" is a generalization. Like saying all Subie owners are cheap.
See y'all on the other boards.
Actually, that one is true. Cheap, but not poor, therefore cheap, but by choice - not by necessity.
While I was there, I noticed the X3 is missing a lot of things that are standard on the Forester XT, FWIW:
* cruise control
* front fog lights
* heated front seats (package)
* climate control
* 6CD changer (it has a single CD)
* full size spare (donut on steel rim)
It has some things the XT is lacking, of course, but not that many, really, on the base model.
-juice
It's missing, compared to the XT:
* AWD not standard (could be good if you want RWD)
* "intelligent" keyless
* heated seats/mirrors (package)
* roof rail cross bars
* no full size spare (donut on steel rim)
I'm not sure if regular keyless is standard. It does seem to come with more standard features than the Bimmer, though. BMW really nickel-and-dimes you way up in terms of price.
-juice
Hmm. A 10 day cruise on Holland America for half the price of a 6 day on QM2? I'll take the 10 day.
DaveM
One good thing about the X3. It's got a really good ad. I don't know much about the ride, but at least the background music of the ad is excellent (Amon Tobin's "Sordid"). The marketing wing of the auto industry must be getting younger, or at least hipper.
Steak dinner tonight, anyone?
--dcdouglas