Hybrid Honda Accord

robertsmx

Sanyo is the battery pack supplier for Accord Hybrid. In fact, it was Sanyo that unleashed the news about Accord Hybrid (for North American and Japanese markets) couple of years ago. Honda announced it several months later.

In the Japanese market, I suspect the “hybridization will be on “Inspire” instead of the JDM Accord.

ateixeira

So Panasonic does all the engineering probably with some funding and help testing from Toyota.

To me that still makes them Panasonic batteries.

-juice

usbseawolf2000

"Sanyo is the battery pack supplier for Accord Hybrid"

Insight and HCH used Panasonic NiMH battries. I wonder why Honda switched from Panasonic to Sanyo. Any more info on Accord hybird's Sanyo batteries? Are they Prismatic or D-Cell type?

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"So Panasonic does all the engineering probably with some funding and help testing from Toyota."

They have a long relationship since the 90's, I believe, since Rav4 EV development.

Dennis

gagrice

"So Panasonic does all the engineering probably with some funding and help testing from Toyota"

Actually neither Panasonic or Toyota are the patent holders of NiMH technology. It is an American company ECD Energy Conversion Devices. Matshushita settled their lawsuit with the patent holder or you would not have any hybrids on the road today. That will also be a factor in keeping the price of the batteries at a given level. Remember Sony's strangle hold on Trinitron CRT's?

On July 7, 2004, Energy Conversion Devices, Inc. (ECD) announced the settlement of patent infringement disputes and counterclaims involving nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries. Attached hereto as Exhibit 99.1 is a copy of the press release issued by ECD on July 7, 2004.

http://www.ovonic.com/PDFs/Financial_Reports/form_8k/8k_mbi_paten- t_infringe_settlement_7july04.pdf

usbseawolf2000

It's true that Ovonic made many advances in NiMH technology during EV1 time. Panasonic had made more advances in HV batteries since then. They end up cross-licensing with each other plus Panasonic and Toyota paid some money. It was the best interest for Toyota to settle the case ASAP because the battery was holding up Prius' production. I hope Sanyo doesn't have to go through all those for Accord Hybrid.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

robertsmx,

What ever happened to that torque curve from msg# 663. It never loaded. If you still have it, can you make it work? Thanks, I want to see it.

Dennis

robertsmx

Yeah, I noticed that my picture didn’t show up, but it was too late before I did (to edit). It did show up after I posted it, but likely because the picture was already in my computer’s cache. Here we go again.



BTW, this isn’t an official graph, just an attempt to see what it must look like.

usbseawolf2000

Forbidden access!

Dennis

robertsmx

It seems to have showed up at vtec.net. I cleaned up my cookies/cache and it still shows up to me. Anyway, if you want, I can email it to you as an attachment.

But, to give you an idea, the torque curve turns up as a flat line from 1000 rpm to 6000 rpm (225-232 lb.-ft throughout). The values that I derived...

S TI PI TE PE T P
1000 150 29 79 15 229 44
1500 176 50 53 15 229 65
2000 190 72 39 15 229 87
2500 197 94 32 15 229 109
3000 203 116 26 15 229 131
3500 207 138 23 15 230 153
4000 211 161 20 15 231 176
4500 215 184 16 14 231 198
5000 218 208 14 13 232 221
5500 217 227 11 11 228 238
6000 215 246 8 9 223 255
6500 195 241 6 7 201 248

(TI/PI: Torque/Power from ICE; TE/PE: Torque/Power from Electric Motor; T/P: Combined Torque/Power)

usbseawolf2000

I found one there that looks like this.



Dennis

robertsmx

Try… “An Attempt to Plot A Theoretical Dyno Graph!” by Wizard (that’s me) in the discussion on the first news item (HAH specifications).

crawfish

Sorry for being stupid, how does this increased torque save gas for HAH?

usbseawolf2000

If the electric motor assist the gas engine, it would not need to burn as much gas to reach the same acceleration or speed.

Dennis

ateixeira

Also, some of the battery power is "free", basically due to regenerative braking. You just get that energy back when accelerating once again.

Great graph, Dennis.

The battery boost sure does help.

But what is surprising from that is how weak the torque curve is for the basic V6! That's horrible! What happened to a nice, flat torque curve?

Is that graph actual or just estimated?

-juice

robertsmx

It is a sketch somebody plotted without a scale. My calculations show a near constant torque output from off idle to 6000 rpm.

usbseawolf2000

"....Selling more hybrid gas-electric vehicles, for example, could help a car maker meet the California carbon constraints.

This Accord Hybrid, along with the Prius and hybrid sport-utility vehicles such as the Ford Escape Hybrid and Lexus RX 400h hybrid going on sale next spring, represent the kind of vehicle California regulators want the industry to push.
"

http://www.globemegawheels.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20- 040923/WHHYBRIDS23/cars/

But the Accord Hybrid does not improve emission from the EX-V6! I knew this would happen!

Dennis

ateixeira

Thanks for clearing that up. Whew! I think that graph exaggerates the lack of low end torque to make the battery seem more necessary.

Better gas mileage does not always mean better emissions. There are plenty of PZEV models that are conventional gas engines (Focus, Outback), and some hybrids do not meet that standard.

-juice

bartalk2

Automotive News announced the price of the Accord Hybrid: $30,000.

gagrice

"But the Accord Hybrid does not improve emission from the EX-V6! I knew this would happen!"

How do you figure that? If the car uses less fuel it will emit less pollution. I think Honda is trying to make a car that does not sacrifice performance and handling. It will be the only hybrid that is a good performer as well as improved mileage and less pollution.

Sounds like the writer in your article is in agreement with most car buyers. The hybrids are not worth the premium unless you just like to be the first on the block.

ohiocarguy

As a matter of strict math, the HAH may not be worth the premium. But then again, it would be fun to get that kind of performance AND that kind of mileage. Maybe some of the premium would be returned at resale......

And if you really go by the math, we should all be driving little econoboxes with no frills.

larsb

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-09-23-acc- ord-hybrid_x.htm

dudleyr

Healy sure did not get very good mileage. 32 mpg on slow winding roads and 26 mpg on a hilly interstate going 70. A 4-cyl Accord (or Camry) or a Malibu V-6 can beat those numbers handily.

I am curious to see more real world numbers.

zitch

*Ahem*

"Honda agrees it's a no-win viewed strictly that way, which is why the Accord hybrid also will be sold as the highest-power, top-of-the-line Accord, and marketed as the one to drive if you really care."

"•Who'll buy? Slightly younger, richer, better-educated than typical Accord V-6 buyers; hybrid target is college-educated married man, 50, with $100,000-plus annual household income."

Again, I think that Honda is marketing this Accord to the right people. Hybrids are not going to be worth it for the next few years until their costs go down. This is not the vehicle to get for the middle-income family that is looking for a mid-sized sedan.

Though the 26 MPG on a hilly interstate with the cruise set to 70 does seem disappointing. I guess it would depend on "hilly". My 4-cylinder 2003 Accord got 35-38 MPG on pretty flat interstate (I-10 from Florida to Louisiana) with the cruise set to 70-75. This is only one test. We'll have to see others to get a better picture.

backy

I agree, Honda is going after the right market with the HAH. Someone who likes the "prestige" of driving something out of the ordinary and likes the Accord but wants a little more power, and doesn't mind paying for it, will go for it. They can feel good that they own a powerful yet high-mpg car. People who like the Accord but are OK with a cloth interior and good but not great acceleration will opt for the 4-cylinder models and save $10,000+.

BTW, I think Mr. Healey is in error when he states that "It's the first hybrid more powerful than the gas-engine equivalent: 255 horsepower vs. the gas V-6's 240 hp." I thought the Escape hybrid is more powerful than the 4-cylinder equivalent.

falconone

Agreed.. my brother has an '04 Solar that gets 32 avg MPG and he's quite happy with the 2.4ltr performance.

gagrice

"Though the 26 MPG on a hilly interstate with the cruise set to 70 does seem disappointing."

I think disappointing is putting it mildly. I just drove my wife's 1990 Lexus LS400 on Interstate 15 that has some long steep hills. For the 200+ mile round trip we averaged 25.2 and never got under 80 MPH. Much of it was at 85 to keep up with the traffic. IMO if the HAH does not get 40 MPG on the highway it is a total waste of money.

dudleyr

Just skip the Accord hybrid and get a TL if you want something above the Accord V-6. Consumer Reports got 35 mpg with the TL going 65 mph. Plus you can get the TL with a manual tranny - which is more fun and gets even better mileage.

Regarding the earlier post that said Camry Hybrid would be more expensive than Accord Hybrid. I doubt it. The Camry will be based off of a $20,000 4-cyl car, not a $26,000 6 cyl.

robertsmx

Some of you are jumping on the 26 mpg achieved “under certain conditions” and comparing to your own experiences. Comparisons should never be made without giving a consideration to the situations. Otherwise, the four “fuel misers” (Civic Hybrid, Prius, Jetta TDI and Echo) should be branded as getting 16-18 mpg which they all did get (but under “certain conditions”).

BTW, in the same article the author quotes getting 18.2 mpg in an Accord V6.

dewey

"Just skip the Accord hybrid and get a TL "

"People who like the Accord but are OK with a cloth interior and good but not great acceleration will opt for the 4-cylinder models and save $10,000+."

The above statements are quite true. The premimium price of the HAH makes it an uneconomical proposition when compared to a TL or basic Accord. Despite this I guess the novelty of buying a sporty hybrid sedan should make it a hit for the first year. How it does in the future is another story!

robertsmx

If Honda were to base Accord off $20K Accord LX, then we could have seen a $24K hybrid. IMO, Honda should do that as well.

dudleyr

I agree - Honda should do a 4-cyl Accord hybrid. That would get my attention. Better still make it a wagon.

You don't have to give up leather if you get a 4-cyl Accord BTW.

larsb

"If Honda were to base Accord off $20K Accord LX, then we could have seen a $24K hybrid. IMO, Honda should do that as well."

Can you imagine a Hybrid Echo? SCARY !!!

Actually, so far, the business model has been to put the Hybrid on the "upper end" models, the models on which the carmakers attain the highest profit margins, in order to recoup some of the R&D cost.

Until that long-term ROI is attained, no car maker will put a hybrid drivetrain on a low end, low margin model - ain't gonna happen for some time if ever....

gagrice

If the HAH sells for $32k with NAV and all plushed out with leather, it will be direct competition for the Prius. I think most would sacrifice the few extra MPG for a much nicer handling Accord. Many have paid $32k for their Prius with the NAV. It would be a no brainer for me for sure.

robertsmx

I’m actually thinking Hybrid Jazz (now that there are rumors of it being prepared for North American market). With either of its two engines available today (1.3 I-DSI and 1.5 VTEC), the car already has a potential to beat Civic HX in terms of fuel economy (rated 36/44 mpg with 5MT). With addition of IMA, it can only get better.

dudleyr

But the Prius starts at $20k, the Accord starts at 30K. You can (or will once supply catches up) get a Prius for a reasonable price. Even the base Prius is pretty well equipped - about the same cost and features as a Camry LE.

robertsmx

The “ideal hybrid lineup” from Honda…
Jazz/Fit: 1.3 I-DSI + IMA (100 HP / $17K)
Civic: 2.0 I-VTEC I + IMA (160 HP/$20K)
Accord: 2.4 I-VTEC I + IMA (175 HP/$25K) / 3.0 I-VTEC + IMA (255 HP/$30K)
Element: 2.4 I-VTEC I + IMA (175 HP/$25K)
Odyssey: 3.5 I-VTEC + IMA (270 HP /$35K)
Pilot: 3.5 I-VTEC + IMA (270 HP /$35K)

And offer 2.2-liter diesel in CR-V.

BTW, “I-VTEC I” is Honda’s version of DI engines that can have an AFR of as lean as 65:1! So far, only one vehicle (Japanese market Honda Stream) has been equipped with one. I suspect that next generation Civic will get it, and may be necessary to bump up the output and fuel economy, both at the same time.

robertsmx

To understand the difference between Prius and Accord Hybrid, you will have to get in, drive and get out. The chassis involved in Prius is no match to Civic Hybrid, forget about Accord.

backy

Actually, the $32k fully-loaded HAH is direct competition for the Prius only in cases where people pay thousands more than list. When the HAH is available in numbers, and with the increased production of the Prius in 2005, that should cut down on the big dealer markups on the Prius. Then it will be a choice between the $21-27k Prius and the $30-32k HAH.

backy

Until that long-term ROI is attained, no car maker will put a hybrid drivetrain on a low end, low margin model - ain't gonna happen for some time if ever....

I don't know about that... I wouldn't call the Civic a high-end, high-margin model. Toyota has stated it will put HSD across its lineup--that includes I expect the Corolla. And Hyundai's hybrid prototype is the Elantra--definitely not a high-end, high-margin model. We may see low-end hybrids sooner than you think.

midnightcowboy

If you look at the demographics of the HAH target it is significantly different from the Prius demographic target

>"•Who'll buy? Slightly younger, richer, better->educated than typical Accord V-6 buyers; hybrid >target is college-educated married man, 50, >with $100,000-plus annual household income ."

Maybe HAH is trying to raise-the-bar and find/define another Hybrid niche market.

YMMV,
MidCow

P.S.- I fit the profile except for the 5-speed automatic transmission.

gagrice

That is very true... People are overpaying for the Prius until the dust settles. I think it already may be losing some glamour. I see several Prius offerings on Ebay never reached their reserve over the last month. More listings on the auction currently.

larsb

what I mean by that is that the HCH is basically an EX model with the Hybrid drivetrain attached - thus the "high-end" designation......

And they make more profit on an $18000 loaded EX than they do a $14000 stripped DX.......that was and is my point.....:)

backy

I recall a thread in the Prius discussion about the demographics for Prius buyers being average income over $100,000. I think there was an age range too but I forget what that was. So it's possible the HAH and Prius will attract the same general demographic, but with some differences--e.g. HAH buyers will have more emphasis on performance, Prius on fuel efficiency and maybe low emissions.

larsb

And the Honda fans will buy the Honda b/c it's a Honda........

And those who want what the Prius offers (larger car/more comfort items) in a "more conventional" setup will want HAH.

dogface5

The question my friends is not Toyota Hybrid or Honda Hybrid, but rather it is Hybrid or Non-Hybrid. Both Honda and Toyota can have successful hybrid cars if they are able to convince the public to buy Hybrid versions of their cars rather than non-hybrid versions.

xcel

Hi All:

___I don’t know about all of you but I took a brand new 04 Accord 4 door sedan with the I4 in an EX-L w/ NAVI trim out for a run tonight. It has just 15 miles on the odometer. The 28 mile round trip consisted of 15 miles city and 13 miles of State and Interstate highway. I reset the FCD before I left the parking lot and had a 44.3 mpg average for the entire run with the Instantaneous pegged at 50 mpg (that is as high as it goes) at anything below 58 mph out on the highway. Who needs a hybrid when a brand new $22,500 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI sedan can receive > 50 mpg out on the highway? I did have the service department take the tires up to 40 #’s all around before the test drive so that helped. A non-broken in vehicle though? Darn thing was offering better fuel economy brand new then my 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto and I run her with Mobil1 0W-20 Synthetic and 50 #’s in the Integrity’s … Then again, the I4 wouldn’t do 0 - 60 anywhere near the less then 7 seconds of the HAH but I don’t accelerate nearly that fast anyway

___Oh, and the EX has the sunroof …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

dudleyr

The hybrid will be hard pressed to top that. No, the I-4 is not as fast, but when equipped with the manual tranny there are several model years of Corvettes that it can beat, so it is not exactly a slouch. It can also keep up with the last generation V-6.

Was the test drive a manual or an automatic?

falconone

HAH will be sold OVER MSRP so don't get out your checkbook yet Gary.

falconone

Quite true.. someone is trying to sell one with 26k miles for $27k on eBay. Supply is finally reaching demand. The Prius is still one of the most difficult cars to get.