By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
___It was an Automatic From 04 on up, the autos and manuals are rated at the same EPA estimated highway fuel economy (34 mpg). 26 (manual) vs. 24 (auto) in the city however. It was the pegged 50 mpg FCD below 58 mph in both directions out on the highway as well as the final 44.3 mpg for the 28 mile segment that had me shocked.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___The V6 Accord’s come with Trac but no VSA. That is unfortunately only included on the Acura’s
___As for step down for a Prius owner, not if the Prius II owner likes driving a slug without the many std. luxury features the HAH carries. You can pick up the Accord Hybrid brochure from your local Honda dealer if you want to see it in glossy print or to do a comparison for yourself. It takes up ~ 4 pages of the 2005 Accord brochure. No Smart Entry/Smart start either but it does have the ability to roll down all 4 windows from the key fob on those hot days. Hopefully the Prius II will receive this as well as multi-adjustable motor controlled and heated leather seating surfaces as well as dual zone auto-climate like the Accord Hybrid includes as standard.
___In regards to safety, would you rather have an accident in an almost across the board 5-star rated Accord (I assume the HAH will score exactly the same) or a mostly 4 star rated Prius II? You can read up on the tests and scores over at nhtsa.com. Whether VSA or Toyota’s own VSC will keep you from an accident is a good question however. If the HAH handles anything like the std. Accord EX, you will be far more likely to lose control in a Prius II in my experience behind the wheel of the Prius II vs. a std. Accord EX. That is unless you are using the Accord’s better handling characteristics to drive beyond the limits of the Prius II right from the start. It wouldn’t matter what you have as far as safety equipment in that case as an accident is only a matter of time.
___I would have hoped the HAH came w/ a HID option as well as the missing sunroof Either way, it will still be way too expensive in comparison to the much slower but just as well equipped 04 Accord EX-L I4 w/ Auto and NAV for ~ $10,000 less.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The Accord is not rollover prone.
Higher-end cars like Lexus or Acura may have it because you can expect everything when you pay for a luxury brands.
I would care more about getting VSC on an SUV or even a minivan.
Now in 2004, are we going to see the newest hybrid that specializes in acceleration compared to one that specialized in both emissions and high efficiency?
That's totally bizarre. The two have absolutely nothing in common. With different purposes so extreme, it just doesn't make any sense.
Why not discuss the potential of the technologies instead? After all, both Toyota & Honda have already announced new configurations will follow.
JOHN
That HAH is a great car for the "college- educated people, 50, consevative, incomes 100K+ or loans from mothers-in-law, with or without moustaches and clean DMV records...".
I am going to buy one HAH this December when it comes out. Cant wait. I have had 7 hondas including Civic and Accord I4 and EX V6. We cant be wrong to buy Accords. HAH's performance is fantastic.
Viet
A crazy fan with Accord V6 for a long time.
Are you saying someone in the market for a new car and possibly a hybrid would not look at both the Prius and Accord hybrids? At that point it would be nice if they knew the advantages and disadvantages of both. Would you think the Prius is closer for comparison to an Escape hybrid because it uses a similar technology? I don't think so. The HAH & Prius are both 5 passenger cars. One gets very good mileage the other very good performance. Let the buyers decide which suits them best.
That puts them in totally different leagues, each serving a different audience.
JOHN
In city traffic, where the ICE can shut down at stops, and on a level highway where 3 cylinders provide enough power, is where I think the HAH will show improvement over the regular V6 Accord.
The 20 MPG is probably incorrect. Where did you come up with the $10k difference? A fully equipped HAH with NAV is supposed to be $32k. Some people have paid that for a #9 Prius or more. The TMV for the 2005 Prius # 6 is $28,966 as of today. Maybe $3k difference for a bigger car with much better performance. In fact I would say Toyota is lucky that Honda is only going to build 20k cars the first year. I think it will cut into the Prius sales by a bunch. It is the same techno geeks that will go for both cars.
As for pricing, perhaps it is premature to be comparing MSRPs of the HAH to TMVs of other cars. Who knows, if the HAH is a big hit its TMV may be over MSRP, which has happened for new Honda models in the past. What we do know is that the MSRP difference of the HAH and Prius starts at about $8600 and goes down to $5500 for cars with nav--at least for the Prius packages offered in my area. It's a little difficult to compare the two cars price-wise, however, because each has features not available on the other.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100850
___I haven’t seen this much detail posted about the Accord Hybrid yet so if I missed it previously, here it is again as posted over at TOV.
Idle stop
As with previous versions of Honda's hybrid powered cars, the IMA system incorporates an idle-stop feature that temporarily turns off the gasoline engine when the vehicle comes to a stop from speeds over 10 mph. In this situation, the IMA's ECU monitors the closed throttle, speed and brake pressure to determine the driver is bringing the car to a stop. The engine is turned off when the car's speed drops below 10 mph (16 km/hr). When the brake pedal is released, the IMA's motor restarts the engine and power is available immediately.
Unlike the idle-stop feature in the Insight and Civic Hybrid, the Accord Hybrid system continues to operate even while the car's automatic climate control system is in use. This is made possible by the introduction of a new hybrid air conditioning system, which uses air compressors powered by both the gasoline engine's drive belt and IMA electric motor (see Interior). Idle-stop is unavailable only when the car is first started on an extremely hot day when maximum cooling is required.
IMA System
The 3rd-generation IMA system is the largest and most efficient to come out of Honda's hybrid development program. As with previous versions, the IMA system consists of an ultra-thin DC brushless electric motor mounted between the gasoline engine and the automatic transmission, and an intelligent power unit (IPU) that stores electric power in a compact battery box and controls the flow of electricity to and from the electric motor. Also new with this generation of the IMA is the mounting of a 15cc air compressor to the electric motor which provides increased cooling capacity to the Accord Hybrid's dual-zone automatic climate control system (see Interior).
5-Speed Automatic Transmission
To increase performance through quicker shifts and a wider range of gear ratios and to aid the IMA system's ability to recapture kinetic energy through regenerative braking, Accord Hybrid employs a new 5-speed automatic transmission.
**Sixty millimeters thinner than the version of 5-speed transmission used on the current Accord EX V6, this transmission contributes to improved fuel efficiency through a new lockup clutch torque converter that shortens shift response during acceleration, more immediate startup after idle-stops by using of an integrated electric oil pump, and smoother ride during hard acceleration. While a new long torsion damper works with the VCM system to increase the rpm range during which VCM is activated to further contribute to improved fuel economy.
Integrated Electric Oil Pump
In order to generate the hydraulic pressure necessary to shift gears through its torque converter, most automatic transmissions experience a lag between shifts while the engine spins the drive shaft and the counter-spinning torque converter spins to create oil pressure. The Accord Hybrid eliminates this lag, which subsequently improves fuel efficiency, by using an integrated electric oil pump to constantly pump oil through the transmission's torque converter. This is particularly important for the Accord Hybrid when restarting after an idle stop when the gasoline engine is providing no power to the drive shaft.
High-response lockup clutch torque converter
In addition to the electric oil pump which maintains consistent pressure within the transmission, the torque converter itself employs an advanced, compact design that improves shift response time to one-third of that in the Accord EX V-6's automatic transmission. Regardless of gear, or vehicle speed, shift engagement takes place in less than half a second, which results in smoother acceleration and improved fuel economy.
In combination with the integrated oil pump, this new high-response lockup clutch torque converter helps improve city fuel economy by more than 1.5 mpg
Dual Zone Hybrid Automatic Climate Control System
Unlike previous iterations of Honda's hybrid vehicles, the power generated from the gasoline engine and IMA hybrid system is used for more than just drive power. This 3rd generation IMA system also introduces a dual scroll hybrid air conditioning system that reduces the load of the gasoline engine by using a combination of engine and electric motor to drive two smaller air compressors. These compressors can act independently or together as dictated by the cooling needs of the Accord Hybrid's dual zone automatic climate control system.
On extremely hot days, cooling is provided by both the 75cc belt-driven compressor attached to the Accord's 3.0L V-6 engine and the 15cc, 144V motor-driven compressor attached to the a small secondary motor. When the air conditioning system is forced to use both the gasoline engine and electric motor, the Accord's idle-stop feature is disabled until cooling needs are reduced.
In all other situations, either of the two compressors cools the interior cabin individually depending upon cooling needs and the charge state of the IMA's battery pack. On warmer days, the 75cc engine-mounted compressor acts as the sole source of air-conditioning, while the 15cc motor-driven compressor is in action when the climate control is maintaining a steady temperature or the car is idle-stopped.
___The details about the A/C Electric/mechanical and transmission were interesting anyway According to the Canadian press link posted above, the Hybrid Accord’s V6 has lean burn as well? I doubt this is the case as I would suspect a much higher highway fuel economy if it did.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Those seeking a high MPG vehicle will have no interest in a HAH. They will consider a HCH or a Prius instead. Adding extras is a choice to the base model, not a requirement.
HAH serves a different audience. That is a good thing. Variety will widen the appeal of hybrids.
JOHN
TCO doesn't seem to be a consideration. People are buying Priuses , HCH and will most likely buy the HAH ,because that provide better mileage that their non-hybrid alternatives; forget the fact that the cost anywhere from $2000-$5000 more. And forget the fact that the long-term battery life and replacement cost is a huge unknown.
Both Honda and Toyota are very reliable. People want long term reliablity.
People want acceleration and performance they are used to in other average car alternatives, An acceptable measure is the 0-60 mph time and an acceptable range is 8-9.5 seconds. Some people want better performance, but few want worse. This is where the Prius falls short.
Somewhere far down on most people's list is Lower emissions and the "green machine".
So really the comparisons are not that bizarre, but more in line with what the consumer market will pay for.
YMMV,
MidCow
I can understand your not wanting to compare the HAH to the Prius. I'm sure the Accord will be a far superior car. As far as comparing the HCH to the Prius that seems fair. I just checked TMV for my area between the two cars. A Prius with just side air bags that are standard on the HCH it comes out to $23,821. The HCH has no options available on the top of the line HCH. It has a TMV of $20,811. Considering the mileage figures that have been posted here and other forums are nearly identical, it looks like you get $3010 worth of gas for buying the Honda. At an average of 49 mpg and $2 per gallon that is 73,000 miles for FREE. A no brainer for someone looking to save natural resources and the environment. EPA has them rated nearly identical also. Now if you are the only one commuting to work and you are serious about the environment and mileage, you will search around and find a Honda Insight. EPA rates it higher than either the Prius or HCH.
The HCH also has no traction control, which to a lot of people is a very nice thing to have. The Prius also has optional stability control, the HCH does not. The Prius has a folding rear seat. The HCH does not. The Prius has a much nicer stereo. The Prius has 15" wheels as opposed to 14" wheels. And so on.
I wanted to say "thanks" to all who took the time to respond to my question here! I appreciate this--- good info!
thanks again,
Craig
___The Accord Hybrid will not have sunroof unfortunately. Honda probably saved $300 - $400 by not including it
___If you are concerned about over spending (actual costs), the Accord Hybrid is the last Accord you should consider.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Civic hybrid to a Prius in a discussion about the Accord hybrid, but you are being pretty loose with your facts:
Civic Hybrid (CVT): EPA 48 city, 47 highway, 47.5 combined.
Prius (CVT): EPA 60 city, 51 highway, 55.6 combined.
In my book, these numbers are not nearly identical. Also, you are choosing to ignore third-party tests that show the two cars have significantly different mpg numbers when driven under the same conditions. But if you believe the HCH is the equal to the Prius, by all means get the HCH because it will cost less.
I have seen quite a few, just on the Edmunds.com discussions.
I was referring to the emissions that the EPA indicates for the two cars as being nearly equal.
That is very odd, since your entire post was about fuel economy and you didn't mention emissions once. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
AS far as traction control. I spend half the year driving on ice and have never felt I needed it.
So do I, some years, and the few times I've needed it, I appreciated it. But it's more for my wife, a native Texan who still doesn't know how to drive well on ice and snow, and as an extra measure of safety for my oldest son who almost has his license.
I do think the extra price of the HAH can be justified--it all depends on how one justifies it. Maybe for some buyers, being the first on the block with a hybrid Accord, and the fastest Accord to boot, is justification enough.
I am sure that has gone down to a $1500 tax deduction. Which means if you are in the 35% bracket you will pay about $500 less taxes. I have not seen any statistics yet but I would think the first year HAH will be hard to get. If they are only building 20k units for the 2005 MY they may have that many deposits already.
If you can justify the extra for a Prius you could easily justify the HAH. I see people that are buying a hybrid strictly for the fuel savings. It is a false economy. This has gotten hashed to death on the forum. I did research as you have and came up with several cars that would satisfy all a families needs for much less than a Prius. Buying any hybrid for the economy is not fiscally sound. Buying because you like the technology is what makes America Great.
___The Prius II isn’t receiving anywhere near its mean EPA estimates in the real world by the vast majority of consumers that own it whereas the HCH is at least a lot closer from the guys I read about on a daily basis. The Prius II has the edge of course but it isn’t an 8.1 mpg edge that you quoted per the EPA.
___In any case, the AH as well as the HCH and Prius II are not cost effective candidates for ones drive if cost effectiveness of ones automobile is your goal. At least with the AH, you receive a nice boost in performance. Hardly worth the non-Honda verified $3,400 + of course but you do receive it vs. the HCH and Prius II in particular
___Wayne R. Gerdes
That is remarkable, that in your research you were able to consider the needs of all families. Personally I think there are some out there who could financially justify the purchase of a Prius, e.g. drive lots of miles each year and the alternative is a mid-sized car or larger vehicle. But for an inch or two of rear seat legroom, I would be in that group, and I don't drive all that many miles.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
That graph shows that torque(base) starts to drop after 5,200 RPM. Your graph shows the drop after 6,200 RPM. Inconsistent.
Dennis
A: Accord (North America): 240 HP (6200 rpm); 212 lb.-ft (5000 rpm)
B: Inspire (Japan): 247 HP (6000 rpm); 218 lb.-ft (5000 rpm)
C: Elysion (Japan): 247 HP (6000 rpm); 228 lb.-ft (5000 rpm)
For HAH, the output rating: 255 HP (6000 rpm); 232 lb.-ft (5000 rpm)
I somehow doubt that the “D” version is as “clean” as the others, and certainly way more powerful, to form the basis for HAH, so we will toss it out. “B” and “C” have a potential, but they also utilize higher compression (11.0:1 compared to 10.5:1 in the HAH or 10.0:1 in “A”). I’m not sure if “regular grade” would be recommended for the Japanese versions, but in case of “A” and HAH, it is.
In case of “A”, the engine gets 240 HP at 6200 rpm because it manages to pump at least 203 lb.-ft at 6200 rpm (down 5% from its peak). In case of HAH, getting 240 HP but 200 rpm earlier may be possible, but the rest of it will have to come from the electric motor. I would guess, about that the motor is delivering about 15 HP at 6000 rpm (in case of HCH, the less powerful motor is delivering 9 HP at 5700 rpm). So, the electric motor would be adding about 13 lb.-ft at 6000 rpm even with the 3.0/V6 producing slightly more torque than "A" does to have a total of 223 lb.-ft available at 6000 rpm.
On the other side of the spectrum, the brushless DC motor is “peak rated” at 16 HP (840 rpm)/ 100 lb.-ft (840 rpm). Now, 840 rpm may be the minimum speed the V6 may be tuned for (what would normally be the engine’s “idling speed”). So, it is logical to assume that HAH is using an electric motor with a near constant supply of 15 HP across the rpm band. At 1000 rpm, this would amount to an additional 78 lb.-ft, at 2000 rpm, an additional 40 lb.-ft, at 3000 rpm an additional 26 lb.-ft and so on. Hence the torque numbers for the electric motor.
Going back to the gasoline power. At 1000 rpm, the Honda 3.0 (any of the above) produces about 165-170 lb.-ft. For “convenience”, I assumed the HAH version of the 3.0 I-VTEC produces “only 150 lb.-ft”. With 78 lb.-ft from electric motor, we’re talking about 225 lb.-ft at 1000 rpm. You can work the math at other engine speeds to discover that for most part, the HAH power train is delivering 220-232 lb.-ft (at least 95% of its peak torque) through out the engine’s rpm band.
I hope this helps. We may actually see an official dyno of the power train once it is released in Japanese market. So, hang on!
I've never understood why we need to incentivize the purchase of a product that flys off the shelves on its own merits.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
true, the market itself without Government help has proven the overall success of hybrids. But if bureaucrats will offer me money to buy a hybrid, I will not refuse.(despite the silliness of such a policy)
As for the HAH, Honda just gave EVERY Accord full set of airbags, front, side curtain.
As for the fuel situation-
If China continues to expand, they will absorb all the slack in the production capacity we have had up to now. If China's growth stumbles, welcome to the next world depression. While the US will be better off than anywhere else, its going to be a fun time.
Diesel? When 9/11 hit all the Diesel stations near NYC were "selling" only to emergency vehicles- its also what people use to heat their houses- and what truckers use to bring food to market.
Get a hybrid- or something not in competition with NECESSARY fuel use. Just stay above average on the fuel economy and you'll be ahead of the game.
America ain’t Europe where gasoline is much more expensive than diesel. So, the technology shattering theory wouldn’t hold a candle at least as long as there is no price differential.
An E320 diesel is substantially faster than an E320 gas Mercedes. It feels more like the E500 V8 gas engine when I drove all 3 back-to-back. The diesel gets 37 mpg highway, in a fairly big luxury sedan!
I hear the Touared diesel is similarly impressive.
It's all a matter of how you tune it. In fact most hybrids are sorta slow, most take more than 10 seconds to reach 60mph. No better or worse than a TDI.
Besides, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, how about a diesel hybrid? 60 mpg, anyone?
-juice
I bet the Accord diesel can outrun a Prius.
What are the EPA numbers for the HAH again?
-juice
As far as Accord Diesel is concerned, there is only so much 140 HP can do for a 3400 lb car when it comes to performance. BTW, Honda hasn’t mated the Accord Diesel to automatic transmission yet.
It's a much more substantial car that engine is pulling, with no battery replacement to be concerned about 8-10 years from now.
I realize it's not a direct comparison, and the Benz obviously costs a bunch more, but diesels can offer an impressive balance of performance and economy, just like the new crop of hybrids will offer.
But like I said, they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
-juice
Yup, manual HAD is 1.5 sec faster in 0-62mph but fuel economy is 10 MPG less. I won't compare about the emission since it is common knowledge already. If you are interested, I posted comparison of what Toyota has offer in Europe.
usbseawolf2000 "Hybrid vs Diesel" Sep 27, 2004 3:33pm
Dennis