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I see your point, but I think "REAL" is a questionable description - maybe "successful" or "acceptable" is a better word. There is also the fact that the insight is more than a little odd looking, TO MOST PEOPLE'S TASTES. That might have more to do with it not "taking off" than the fact that it is a two seater. Most people with REALLY LONG commutes don't need more than two seats, because they are usually alone for LONG commutes.
I think we can all agree that any car, including the Insight, that uses a "hybrid" combination of gas and electric propulsion should be considered a "real" hybrid, don't you think? Maybe not "mainstream" but certainly REAL.....
Yes they did, and will probably have 3 out before Toyota gets the second one in the dealer's showrooms. Not to mention the fact that both Honda hybrids are getting better real world mileage than the much hyped Prius II. I wonder how many HCH cars have been sold. They mix them with all the other Civic's so it is hard to determine. I don't think Honda is as much into flag waving as Toyota. They just build and sell cars.
Toyota has publicly & repeated proclaimed they will offer a hybrid option on each of their passengers vehicles by 2010.
Big assumption. They are a year behind on their second one and you want to project out 6 years. Get use to it, the Hybrid is Toyota's publicty baby.
I really don't know what that has to do with the HAH, but it isn't a true statement based on reports I've seen, e.g. CR's and C/D's test reports of the HCH and Prius.
It truly can "do better" than the HCH - but how much will vary greatly by driver. Many HCH owners are besting Prius owners, but it all depends on how you drive it, how you PLAY THE GAME.
Over on greenhybrid.com, there is a "real owner mileage database" and the Prius II is sitting at 50 mpg average, 3 mpg better than the 47 mpg the HCH is getting.
I think it failed because Honda was finished using it as a test bed for their hybrid system. It was not an inexpensive car to build with all the aluminum etc. Were there a bunch of them left on the dealers lots? That would constitute somewhat of a failure IMO.
If they can keep the price under $15k it will be a great around town car. It sounds more like a $40k car with all the composites and aluminum.
To get back to HAH, for the same reasons, I expect HAH to be close to EPA estimate. I wouldn't place my bet based on EPA estimates for Toyota hybrids until the results show.
Don't tell me that people aren't expecting to get 60 mpg (city) in Prius when they get one. Considering that 80% of EPA estimate is achieved and they get 48 mpg (a 12 mpg drop), for a similar drop, HCH would have to return just 37 mpg.
Not too long ago there was an article posted on EPA admitting that "hybrids" aren't returning what they promise. In that article, it was clearly mentioned that HCH is getting closer to the estimates than Prius is. I'm not sure what their sampling was, but it gets the point across.
So, it will be interesting to see how HAH stacks up against its estimates (it has a lifetime fuel economy meter as well, so every owner will get to see as well instead of dealing with approximations). And then when other competing hybrids arrive, we will have a fairly good idea of how these technologies stack up against each other.
Don't tell me that people aren't expecting to get 60 mpg (city) in Prius when they get one.
No, I'm not telling you that. After all the press and discussion about real-world fuel economy of hybrids, why should the average driver expect to get 60 mpg city from their Prius? As for the drop from EPA estimates, you are pretty close. CR measured 44 mpg overall on the Prius (vs. 55.6 EPA average) and 36 overall on the HCH (vs. 47.5 EPA average). Regarding the article you mentioned that stated that the HCH was getting closer to its EPA average than the Prius--it would be helpful to know what data was used to back up that assertion. As for what the HAH will achieve in the real world--we'll have to wait and see.
As for the milage records that individuals achieve vs. those from CR, I see value in both. As noted above, the nice thing about tests like those in CR is that the cars are driven on the same course. Comparing John's numbers to Wayne's is almost meaningless, because they have much different commutes.
I doubt all owners must drive over the same course, at all times. The larger sampling at sources like greenhybrid, IMO, projects reality better than those that you seem to have faith in.
After all the press and discussion about real-world fuel economy of hybrids, why should the average driver expect to get 60 mpg city from their Prius?
Then, what should a typical buyer expect?
Regarding the article you mentioned that stated that the HCH was getting closer to its EPA average than the Prius--it would be helpful to know what data was used to back up that assertion.
I’m sure you’ve come across this piece of news item. A link to the article may be found in the hybrid forum, or via a web search
“According to U.S. News & World Report, the EPA has asked Honda and Toyota to voluntarily lower the published mileage figures for their hybrid passenger cars - the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid - to bring them more in line with the mileage real folks get. The Prius's official numbers are an eye-popping 51 miles per gallon on the highway and 60 in the city, or a combined 55 miles per gallon. Many Prius owners, however, report mileage in the 40s - including Margo Oge, a top EPA official responsible for transportation and air quality, who bought an '04 Prius last winter. The Civic Hybrid gets a more modest 47 miles per gallon in combined driving, and owners appear to get close to that, according to www.greenhybrid.com, a Web site for hybrid enthusiasts.”
Comparing John's numbers to Wayne's is almost meaningless, because they have much different commutes.
Whose commute follows the “CR Standard”?
The bias in the USNAWR article is pretty clear. They use the experience of one person to demonstrate their assertion that the Prius gets mpg in the "40s", while they refer to greenhybrid.com for the HCH. They ignore the greenhybrid.com data for the Prius, which shows an overall average of 50 mpg--meaning if many Prius owners are getting in the 40s, many are also getting over 50 mpg.
MB e320 is not comparable to the other hybrid competition. Price is what makes them not comparble.
the price of 1 MBe320= price of Priusll + HCH + investment savings for your retirment.
Independent of price I think most of us would prefer an Mb e320. It will be most interesting to see how the Hybrid Lexus/Highlander will compete with MB M35 and BMW X5.
I am not impressed with a rear spoiler for the HAH. Cant Honda think of better styling cues to differentiate it from a regular Accord?
Also remember that Toyota is much bigger than Honda and can afford to put in more funding for research and development. Honda isn't stupid, it cannot match the R & D that Toyota can do. The "mild" hybrid (A hybrid's a hybrid, no?) requires much less research, uses much of the same equipment (transmissions, engines, etc.), and can be implemented into Honda's line-up quickly.
Hell, I would think that hybrid technology in general will eventually go towards the "full" hybrids, but you need to get the public to accept hybrids in general first. I'm sure that people will be more impressed by the Accord Hybrid than the Prius (or the Camry Hybrid, if it has similar performance characteristics to the Prius).
I can bet that Honda’s fuel cell approach doesn’t have to do anything with choice of going with mild hybrid technology over full hybrid. You’re talking about a company that puts plenty of resources on developing power train related technologies, and has launched its jet engine subsidiary. To top it off, Honda’s original electric motor design incorporated a largish/powerful AC electric motor, first used on EV-Plus (Electric Vehicle) and now used on FCX (Fuel Cell Vehicle). But apparently, it made sense for Honda engineers to go mild hybrid route for its mainstream “hybrid” offerings and they developed a new electric motor (brushless DC motor) this time around.
We’re talking about a company that has chosen to develop its own fuel cell stack, instead of purchasing it from a vendor (Ballard FC Stack have been used on some early FCX prototypes but the production version is using Honda’s own). And a company that opted to develop and advance Ultra Capacitor technology on its own! So, what is the big deal about Full Hybrid?
Mild Hybrid probably made better business sense, and Honda didn’t have to re-invent the wheel. IMA is essentially a plug-in system that Honda could apply to virtually any vehicle it produces today, and with any transmission.
Building a full hybrid prototype can be really really expensive. If you don't believe me, why don't you ask GM? Better yet, ask Nissan or Ford, both of which realized that the cost/benefit ratio of developing their own full hybrid systems was pretty high and subsequently purchased Toyota's system.
In R&D, it is all about COST/BENEFIT. If you spend a lot of money on a project and if it doesn't benefit the company that much (yes, IMA is much more easy to implement than full-hybrid), that money is better spent elsewhere.
Very very boring when the Prius full-hybrid bigots try to take over a thread.
Where are the "OFF-TOPIC" hosts when you need them.
I thought this thread was about the Accord Hybrid period. Not a comparison to the almighty Prius ( en case you didn't get it that was a very sarcastic remark) or a comparison to EPA mileage or a comparison to mild hybrids to full hybrids.
However, i guesss I was mistaken . carry-on with your <b. giberrious about everything but the HAH.
YMMV,
MidCow
I agree that it is crucial to expand hybrid market now. Why isn't Honda releasing EX-V6 VCM with 6-speed manual transmission? I think because Honda doesn't want people to compare it against HAH in fuel economy and performance. Keep in mind that not all hybrid designs were created equal.
Dennis
The difference between Honda and Toyota approach is that Toyota put everything they learned from traditional cars, electric vehicles(highest world record in power to weight electric motor and NiMH battery), and Fuel Cell technology(series hybrid design with power management computer codes) into the making of their full hybrid, HSD. Why didn't Honda use the ultracapacitors that they developed for FCX in their hybrid?
"IMA is essentially a plug-in system that Honda could apply to virtually any vehicle it produces today, and with any transmission."
It sounds good until they started to cut corners in electric drivetrain as their mild hybrids gets milder and milder. If only they kept up with ICE to electric power ratio as in the Insight...
HAH has a very powerful ICE drivetrain with an anemic electric assist(not necessary bad as you said in business sense).
Dennis
Finally you get it! This is exactly what I meant by...
"Mild Hybrid probably made better business sense, and Honda didn’t have to re-invent the wheel. IMA is essentially a plug-in system that Honda could apply to virtually any vehicle it produces today, and with any transmission."
Hopefully, this puts the debate to rest.
One step at a time! Do you think there may be a hybrid Odyssey in the future? I do. But, Honda did release VCM with it, doesn't it? It is very likely that Honda will release “Inspire Hybrid” in Japan with the Accord Hybrid here (American “Accord” is Japanese “Inspire”). And Inspire has had VCM for over a year.
As far as 6-speed manual transmission is concerned, I think it would make more sense for Honda to use it first on the hybrid. In this case, they opted to go the same route as the regular Accord V6 (sedan).
Why didn't Honda use the ultracapacitors that they developed for FCX in their hybrid?
At this point, greater initial cost and the development continues! The last time Honda used its Ultra Capacitor pack in a hybrid was in the 2001 Honda Dualnote prototype. So, it should happen eventually. And a mild hybrid set up is said to be more compatible with the discharge/charge characteristics of Ultra Capacitors!
HAH has a very powerful ICE drivetrain with an anemic electric assist
It has all that it would take to propel the vehicle from 0-60 in 6.5s with automatic transmission while return a combined fuel economy in mid-30s. Let us see how Camry Hybrid holds up whenever it arrives. For now, Accord Hybrid is going to be the king!
How is a mild hybrid going to be more compatible with UCs when it's electric powertrain is 15 times weaker than ICE powertrain? Really, HAH's electric motor can output 12kW and generate 14kW of electricity. Prismatic NiMH batteries are capable of charge/discharge cycle at up to 21kW. UCs can discharge/charge at higher power(up to 10 times) without generating much heat.
If anything, a full hybrid like Prius with 50kW(MG2)+30kW(MG1) can benefit much more from UltraCapacitor since it's electric powertrain has the muscle to actually take advantage of it.
"It has all that it would take to propel the vehicle from 0-60 in 6.5s with automatic transmission while return a combined fuel economy in mid-30s."
Not according to Hondanews.com!
The Accord Hybrid Sedan improves on the current Accord V-6's 0-60 mph time by half a second (7.5 sec. vs. 8.0 for an Accord EX V-6).
33.5 mpg average is HAH's EPA figure. How it will achieve in real life is a different story. HCH CVT gets 47.5 mpg(EPA). That's 42% reduction in mpg to gain about 4 seconds in acceleration(plus bigger car).
HSD's last generation jump(04 Prius) improved 2 seconds in acceleration, fuel economy gained by 14%, and resulted in a larger car as well.
"Let us see how Camry Hybrid holds up whenever it arrives."
Yup. Let's see. 4 cylinder Camry Hybrid will have about 60%(2.4 vs 1.5 liters) more power than Prius. Weights about the same as regular Camry, if not 6% more lbs. So, Camry Hybrid will have about 45% higher power to weight ratio than the Prius. I would say it is enough to get 3 more seconds for 0-60mph acceleration from Prius' 10.5 seconds. Prius can do 50-70mph in 7.9 seconds already, therefore Camry Hybrid will be in 5 seconds range!
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- - - - - - id=7701&page_number=4
EPA figures for Camry Hybird should be greater than 45mpg(22% less than Prius). Oh, and it should be AT-PZEV(as Escape hybrid). That means, Camry Hybrid will qualify to drive in California HOV(diamond) lanes! I bet Toyota and Nissan will reach that goal.
For HSD weight analysis, see usbseawolf2000 "Toyota Allion Vs. Prius" Jun 18, 2004 10:01pm . Keep in mind that Prius is pretty much fully loaded with standard features, therefore extra weight.
"For now, Accord Hybrid is going to be the king!"
The king in polluter in hybrid?
Dennis
Oh, some of us eat dinner & sleep and the like - we can't be here all day, every day.
Looks like we're naturally back on track anyway.
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ksso
Power from an ICE has nothing to do with characteristics of the ultra capacitor, so there is no need to try to correlate them. As for the UC itself, it is not about compatibility. Mild hybrids require high power for short durations and also need to be able to re-charge very quickly. This bodes well with the charge/discharge characteristics of the UC. This doesn’t make UC exclusive to mild hybrids, just that you will have to throw in the size considerations for the needs of a full hybrid system. In other words, a full hybrid will require oversizing of UC pack.
The Accord Hybrid Sedan improves on the current Accord V-6's 0-60 mph time by half a second (7.5 sec. vs. 8.0 for an Accord EX V-6).
And you believe Accord EXV6 does 0-60 in 8.0s? The car has typically ranged between 6.5s and 7.0s (with automatic transmission).
And I didn't think it was necessary to address the rest of the Toyota commercial.
PS. I just noticed that Ford Escape Hybrid is 366 lb heavier than its ICE only counterpart (3627 lb compared to 3261 lb).
I think it is fair to say that Honda is much less of a polluter than Toyota. Honda has two clean hybrids and the cleanest car ever tested by the EPA in the CIVIC CNG. Toyota has one weak emissions laurel to rest on, the Prius. They also sell 3 of the worst polluters on the road. I don't think that is anything to brag about. So of the two manufacturers Toyota is far and away the "King of polluters".
It will be interesting to see the price of the HAH compared to the hybrid Highlander.
You caught me on that one. I used the RX400h on purpose. They share the same chassis as the Highlander, yet the Lexus is so much less useable. I have no answer. However the Highlander is a much more practical SUV than the Lexus. The RX is a fat cat snow vehicle from what I can see.
Regardless, if the real curves (or lines, as you see it) are anything close to this, we’re talking about a power train deliver a near constant torque from off idle engine speed thru 6000 rpm (potentially, thru the redline but I worked in a drop in power output after the peak). In the picture, “T” and “P” are combined Torque and Power outputs respectively. Suffixes –ELE and –ICE refer to individual “motors” (electric and the V6 respectively).
Prom Post 654: usbseawolf2000 said about the Accord Hybrid: "The king in polluter in hybrid?"
What's rather funny here is that people have already acknowledged that Toyota's hybrid is superior to Honda's hybrid in terms of efficiency and technical achievements. Yet I see you spouting off the same thing over and over again, in the "Hybrid Honda Accord 2005" discussion.
Well, if you're "not trying to put down Honda", you're not doing a very good job of that, now.
Please, let's move on and talk about the Hybrid Honda Accord now.
My point was if you want to save fuel and have a good handling car that is hybrid. The Accord seems more logical than the RX400h. There are compromises with both. The Highlander is not in a league with the RX400h or the HAH as it is a 7 passenger SUV. The RX is just a fancy 5 passenger vehicle that has some cool features. I think it is not very attractive though. I would prefer the looks of the Highlander or the Accord. Of course they all pale in comparison to a Suburban ;-)
I agree the Highlander is not in this mix. However no matter how cool people may think the RX400h may be it is still a 5 passenger vehicle and is supposed to be a high performance hybrid. That puts it in a comparison with the only other soon to be released high performance hybrid the HAH. Unless you throw in the Ford Escape. I don't think performance is in that vehicle.
It is like saying don't compare the Jetta TDI wagon to the Prius. They get compared all the time, because of the mileage factor. Room wise the VW offers way more space.
cheers,
ksso
If I am correct, HAH will be only $3000 more than a compatible Accord EX. I don't think Toyota can match that.
Anyone knows how much more a Ford Escape H costs than a regular one? I assume Ford uses a similar technology like Toyota's.
But I think it should be compared to the 2.3l 4 cylinder model, because that's what the hybrid has, and when you do, the surcharge for the hybrid is enormous.
-juice
-juice
Toyota turned profit with their last generation of Prius but I haven't seen any report from Honda about recovering the cost of IMA nor making profit yet. In fact, I read somewhere that Honda is expecting to return profit from IMA with this new Accord Hybrid.
Dennis
-juice
Dennis