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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Addition of Variable Cylinder Management (VCM)
Power train output: 255 HP / 232 lb.-ft (probably underrated to keep the ratings below TL’s)
Fuel Economy: 30/38 mpg
Addition of Active Noise Control (ANC) System
New Hybrid powered dual zone automatic climate control
New instrumentation to include IMA details
New instantaneous and lifetime fuel economy meter
New Dual State front 3-point seat belts with auto tensioning system
Electric Variable Assist Power Steering
Different Grille design
Trunk lid spoiler
Increased tire size (P215/60/R16)
New Instant Mobility System (no ideal what this is)
New exterior color added: Opal Silver
In other words, the Guilt Meter! ;-)
Electric PS has less parasitic loss but often feels NUMB, just try a Malibu to see what I mean.
-juice
I still think an interesting vehicle would be modified 4-cyl. Accord. Put a couple thousand dollars into taking 400 lbs out of the weight, reduce drag by a skosh, add a sixth gear to the manual tranny (keep the first 5 ratios the same).
The car would then be about as fast as an automatic V-6 with much improved fuel economy that would most likely best the Hybrid in mpg at a lower price.
Maybe Honda felt they could gear the hybrid more relaxed with the V6, also.
-juice
Regarding EPS, it largely depends on how it is set up. NSX has been using it for years, and so is S2000. But, those cars aside, Insight, Civic Hybrid and Civic SI systems have been said to be a little on the numb side. At the same time, Honda offers EPS in its sportiest Accord in Japan (Accord-R). We have to wait and see how it shows up in the Accord Hybrid.
I was actually talking about the Accord at that point. I edited my post to make it clearer.
I think perhaps at that price level people expect performance that wows you, and the V6+hybrid will do that.
-juice
It is strange how people percieve economy. I know many people who think nothing about what kind of mileage their vehicle gets and look down their nose at those who do, yet these same people tend to not leave their TV on when they are not watching it and turn lights out when they leave a room etc.
It will be interesting to see how the Accord hybrid is recieved, given how fickle people can be.
Another note on Consumer Reports and the strangeness of how people approach economy. They rate refrigerators, and place a huge emphasis on efficiency - this results in models being severely hurt in the rating because they may use $10 more in electricy in an entire year. Despite this they still rate many gas guzzlers quite well even though they may use $10 more in a few days.
Why throw money away?
I do think that it's hard to justify a hybrid purely on economical terms, though. Buy that 2.4l with 26/34 and save, what $10 or $15 grand? That'll buy your gas for life.
The hybrid will sell based on technology, novelty, range, and the power/efficiency balance.
-juice
Dealer also said the price will be about $5,000 more than the Accord EX -- I presume no discounting from MSRP. I can't see how you would make that up over the life of the car.
As for recovery, in case of cars like Civic Hybrid and Prius, one could argue that their focus is primarily on fuel economy. In case of the Accord though, there is a shift towards performance aspect, not entirely on fuel miser POV. So, cars like it will appeal to those who want to have performance but not at the expense of fuel economy. And if that balance is achieved, “recovery” becomes an overly complicated subject because only a part of it is monetary.
My guess is $3000 over the price of an EX V6, but when you consider the discounting on the non-hybrid, the real price difference might actually be $5 grand.
-juice
-juice
Nice handling car that is fun to drive reasonably quick (8.6 to 60 according to conservative CR) 43 mpg on the Highway, $15,000 well equipped. Mazda 3i sedan.
Accord hybrid will cost almost twice as much and will probably use a little more fuel. It will be a little faster, and will have a little more rear seat room, but the trade off is it won't be nearly as nimble.
Of course it will sell like hotcakes - lots of people are 4-cylinder phobic.
The HAH is not about saving money, it is about making the hybrid image acceptable to those that doubt.
And I doubt nimbleness would be a factor to buy a family sedan approaching near luxury appointments and performance (or may be even better).
Even if Passat diesel had 247 lb.-ft compared to 232 lb.-dt in Accord Hybrid, the gasoline-hybrid motor will maintain it for longer duration than would the diesel, and the gearing will be shorter as well.
Besides, the hybrid should also win in both categories of emissions (smog and greenhouse).
Regarding the grill, I've not looked at the pictures lately, but the first time I did, didn't notice any change either.
Accord 2.2 diesel is even nicer than the VW diesel. With a hybrid it would be the best of both worlds. Maybe the Europeans will get it someday.
vtec.net has the latest info on the Accord hybrid.
Besides this V6 Hybrid, Honda should consider applying hybrid technology to four cylinder Accord. We should see “i-VTEC I” applied to the 2.4/I-4 soon, and that can make things more interesting and at a lower cost (than V6) as well.
Passat TDI is more of an alternative.
-juice
However I will not buy a vehicle that makes me spend $1,000 on a transmission that significantly cuts down fuel mileage and acceleration while taking away some of my control of the vehicle (and is also less fun to drive). With a 6 speed manual I would take the Passat TDI wagon over any vehicle available in the US right now. With the automatic I am not interested.
The VW automatic just hurts the small diesel too much. An MB diesel gets virtually identical mileage to the Passat, and it goes to 60 in less than 7.5 seconds (faster than the gas version)
I am not too serious about the Mazda 3i, it just intrigues me with its incredibly low price. Maybe if they made a wagon - and no the 3s is not a real wagon.
If Honda offered the Accord wagon with the 2.2 diesel, then that would probably top my list. I also like the driving dynamics of the Subaru wagon, but the large engine and AWD take their toll on mileage and acceleration. The Mazda6 wagon has potential, but I can't stomach a relatively small car that uses more fuel than the Sienna or the new Odyssey.
At least manufacturers are starting to see the light regarding efficiency. That will only mean more choices in the future. I'll just cross my fingers that gas prices stay high. ; ^ )
-juice
-juice
http://www.honda.co.uk/news/cars/archive/20040510.html
Other than OPEC and the oil companies who would not like a car like the Honda Accord 2.2 i-CTDi? It has to be cheaper for Honda to manufacture than a hybrid. They are selling in Europe already, way ahead of the hybrid Accord release. I think they would give Honda a real boost in the US market. Also cut into the hybrid market as there is no competition other than VW TDI.
Re Accord hybrid 6-speed vs. Passat. It would probably come down to price, and driving/ride etc at that point. Wouldn't it be nice to have a choice like that.
Diesel and hybrid don't have to remain exclusive, can you imagine a hybrid diesel? Range could hit 1000 miles per tankful.
-juice
Diesel and hybrid don't have to remain exclusive, can you imagine a hybrid diesel? Range could hit 1000 miles per tankful.
___Why would you need a diesel-hybrid to achieve that?
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=54
:-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
But yeah, I need a 5 seater with some cargo space, the Prius is about the smallest I could even consider.'
-juice
___I have never seen anyone receive that kind of mileage and especially that kind of range in a Lupo. Lastly, the Lupo is a 0 - 60 in 20 + second automobile. That won’t quite cut it here in America given the 5-speed Insight is a 10.5 second car to 60 ;-)
Gagrice:
___The biggest drawback is that it is a little rougher ride then you would probably like although it handles great. It is not well noise insulated either unfortunately.
Ateixeira:
How big is that Insight's gas tank?
___10.9 gallons is its rated cap however sometimes you can fill the Vapor recovery HW for a 14 gallon total cap.
Can it really get 1000 mile range?
___I haven’t missed a 1,000 mile tank all summer w/ ~ 1,100 miles being the norm. The 1,523 mile tank was a real doozey however ;-)
___The Prius is at best a 900 mile range automobile driven at ~ 32 mph. In other words, it isn’t going to happen. At regular highway speeds, expect a rather non-distinct 500 miles or less
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
-juice
___I have been filling to this level for 20 + years or maybe 750,000 miles and the only emissions related problem I have ever had was on the 03 Corolla LE needing a new CAT at 58,000 miles which had nothing to do with a vapor recovery fill You can only achieve this in an Insight about one of every 3 or 4 tanks or about once every 4,000 - 5,000 miles which gives you a very nice 1,400 + mile range in summer temps. Without a vapor recovery fill of let’s say 10.5 gallons, it is good for my more normal 1,100 miles.
___Anyway, 1,100 mile + tanks are not that big a deal anymore but < 500 miles on a tank from a hybrid would simply suck without mincing words and being politically incorrect. I pass more gas stations while driving the Corolla out on the highway then most of today’s Hybrid drivers given their smallish tanks and most not achieving the EPA fuel economy estimates.
___And back on topic The HAH will probably come in at around the 600 + mile mark out on the highway. Not bad of course given the available power of the HAH but it is not anywhere near Insight type range or mileage in the least. Give us the Accord with an iCDTi and a 17 gallon + tank (20 + with a vapor recover fill) and 1,200 - 1,400 mile tanks with the rare 1,500 + range might become the norm. What I wouldn’t do to try that out for a few months! Honda, are you listening? The HAH might be good for 1,000 miles with a total fill and the right pilot behind the wheel possibly?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I just hate stopping for gas, especially expensive gas. And that kind of range allows you to "shop around" for gas for the last 200 miles or so.
Just this weekend I saw a low price of $1.699 at the beach, and a high price of $2.099 back at home, 31 cents if you could make it the 150 miles.
So that kind of range does more than save 50% or whatever in terms of the amount of gas, it also allows you to pay 15% less for gas in the first place.
Double whammy of savings.
-juice
Not bad for a large 2 ton vehicle that goes over 140 mph and 0-60 in about 7 seconds.
Gagrice - thought you had a Prius for some reason. Yes the Insight would probably do better than a Lupo. I always wondered what the Insight would have been like if the ~200lbs (that was the case when in came out - may be reduced now) of hybrid equipment was just left off. Highway mileage and acceleration (long term and hill climbing) would improve, but obviously city mileage would go down.
Off topic, but I used to have a 1980 Scirocco (1950 lbs). I advanced the timing a little bit, and I got mid 40's on the highway all the time. My best was 47.5 mpg. The car was a blast to drive too. It has always amazed me that with 25 years of progress there are still not that many cars on the road that can beat that.
1 st gagrice a hybrid, never and especially not a Toyota Prius
2 nd have heard the vapor recovery system is for vapor not liquid and after pricing a charcoal canister and other various emmision components I have no need or desire to squeeze in every last drop, when the pump clicks off thats it for me.
3 rd do you (anyone) think people care about range with a V6 ? Yea the more the merrier but a 4 banger (3 banger with the Insight) yields more range.