Hybrid Honda Accord

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    HAH power delivery is near peak at most of the time, as Honda claimed

    Not near peak power, but near peak torque (at all times).
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    Did this forum die? No news or interest or fussing since 7/12? Where'd everyone go?

    Anyone know when these HAHs will be in showrooms?
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    Apparently there is nothing new that hasn't already been discussed in prior posts. We will have to wait for new announcements from Honda.
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    Well... While we're waiting... Anyone know which octane the HAH will require? Will it have heated seats?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Heated seats, definitely (EXV6 has it standard). Actually, it should have everything that EXV6 offers, and probably couple of additional features as well.

    Octane requirement should remain regular like the Accord V6.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Mid Cow (who has left the building) was the big HAH promoter, oh the Accord hybrid does sound nice but in my book the Prius delivers more and cost less.
  • rotarypower8rotarypower8 Member Posts: 1
    FOLK AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEE'S THE PROBLEM WITH THIS ??? hybrids have alot of torgue cus of the 0 rpm thing ... now think you are going to have alot of power all at the front wheels ... if honda puts the 240 hp v6 on it this thing is going have 400 pound feet of torque once you get the engine going!! honda better be smart and down the batterys power as the engine revs!!! ... do i see problems with burnt out tires torgue steer like no other !!!!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I expect peak torque to be around 250-270 lb.-ft (although arriving at low rpm, somewhere around 2000 rpm would be a reasonable guess). That would put it right next to Accord Diesel (250 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm) sold in Europe. The difference however is in the top end power, the diesel tops out at 140 HP (on a 3100 lb car) and the Accord Hybrid is expected to have 255 HP (on a 3400 lb car).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I drove the Prius and it didn't seem to have a problem with torque steer. Plus I don't think these cars will be driven in that manner by most owners.

    The battery and engine peak at very different rpm, so I don't think they'll gang up on the front axle and create too much torque steer.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    In case of IMA, electric motor's torque does get added to gasoline engine's, so the combined torque will be quite high but the gearing could be shorter. I've not seen any review complaining about torque steer from Accord Diesel (in Europe), which would have comparable torque output to that of Accord Hybrid.
  • jbealljbeall Member Posts: 6
    Does anyone know what colors the new accord hybrid will come in?
  • hybridfan2hybridfan2 Member Posts: 2
    What is Honda citing as the milage for the HAH? Also- the colors are:
    Taffeta White----Ivory Leather
    Graphite Pearl---Gray Leather
    Desert Mist Metallic---Ivory Leather
    Silver Frost Metallic---Gray Leather (a new color forthe Accord)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I've read 32/38 mpg rating is to be expected. That would translate to 27% improvement in highway fuel economy rating and 52% improvement in city fuel economy rating over the V6.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Should be a great balance of performance and efficiency, perhaps the best out there.

    -juice
  • nowakj66nowakj66 Member Posts: 709
    Two questions for the group:

    1. Will there be a manual version of the 4 door HAH?

    2. What is the release date?

    Thanks.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I will be surprised if Honda didn't offer manual transmission with the HAH, for good reasons...
    1. MT can get better fuel economy.
    2. MT exists for the engine.

    Hopefully, Accord will lead the way into introduction of sport sedans using hybrid technology... getting more power and better fuel economy!

    Release date may be with the 2005 Accord (Sep/Oct).
  • greenboygreenboy Member Posts: 2
    Last night I put a deposit on the Accord hybrid at Manchester Honda, in Manchester, Connecticut. They informed me that delivery date would be December 3. I asked them how certain they were on the delivery date and they said "very." I was able to pick my car and interior (leather) colors. They said I would be contacted in September to pick additional options. Hope this helps!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Lexus RX was delayed, so that dealer is being very optimistic, there's just no way to know this far in advance.

    But I hope he's right.

    -juice
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Honda isn't going to offer a manual transmission with the Accord V6 hybrid. It makes no sense, the typical Accord sedan buyer is not going to drive a car with a manual, therefore it makes no financial sense for Honda to do so.

    Also, manuals today offer a very small increase in gas mileage over automatics. Automatics are becoming more and more efficient with the addition of more gears.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Automatics are becoming more and more efficient with the addition of more gears.

    The elimination of gears entirely makes them even more efficient.

    Cone & Belt CVT is beginning to show up in a couple of non-hybrid vehicles now.

    JOHN
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Audi has several, Murano also, Prius, maybe a few more.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda acquired a license to use Antonov Patents for worldwide use in February 2002 and has supposedly filed for patents for new automatic transmissions (six to eight speed).

    “Following the announcement in February that Honda had acquired a non-exclusive licence of certain of Antonov’s patents for world-wide use, technical meetings have been held with Honda to review Honda’s test results. These have proved extremely positive. Prototyping of a potential product developed by Honda using the licensed technology is underway.”

    Related News Item

    Could it be used in Accord Hybrid (or RL)? A little bit of PR news…

    “As with all Antonov AAD designs, low cost is an inherent advantage. An independent estimate of the 6-speed AAD's production cost is US$675 per unit, a large reduction compared with the US$1,000+ cost of the conventional 6-speed automatic.
      
    Independent testing indicates that Antonov's 6-speed AAD is environmentally friendly, achieving up to 30% fuel efficiency gains over current production auto boxes. Advanced control technologies allow full adaptation to needed engine and car performance strategies.”
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Honda could use some good tranny news right now. Good timing?

    -juice
  • greenboygreenboy Member Posts: 2
    When I was in the Honda dealership this week, they said that a manual transmission would not be offered in the fall -- no speculation after that.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Ford Freestyle, Saturn Vue, Saturn Ion are also non-hybrids that offer Cone & Belt CVT.

    Prius uses a Planetary-CVT, which has nothing in common with the other kind.

    JOHN
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda Odyssey in Japan is offered with CVT. Japanese Odyssey is powered by the K24A (2.4/I-4), and is rated from 160-190 HP.

    I doubt Accord Hybrid will have CVT though. Probably too much power and torque for the design. It will either use the 5-speed automatic, or perhaps the 6-speed "AAD" mentioned earlier. It won't be a big deal for Honda to offer 6-sp manual either.
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    I'm casting about because it's taking so long for the HAH to materialize. While we're still waiting... I'm wondering which of these two cars to buy. I've heard reliability and service are spotty for VW. The TDI looks tempting in other respects. What y'all think? No contest?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    My advice: read the problems discussion for the Passat. Read it twice. That was enough to scare me off the Passat. The Accord is not without its problems, but Honda's track record is much better than VW's for reliability.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Passat TDI would make for a nice comparison to Accord Hybrid. With leather, cold weather package and CD changer (expected to be standard in HAH), the Passat TDI MSRP is $28K, potentially a grand under HAH. So, pricewise, they are fairly comparable.

    Relevant specifications
    For Passat TDI...
    Engine: 2.0-liter I-4 TDI (134 HP, 247 lb.-ft)
    Curb Weight: 3450 lb
    EPA Mileage Rating: 27 mpg/38 mpg

    For Accord Hybrid...
    Engine: 3.0-liter V6 IMA (255 HP, 250 lb.-ft*)
    Curb Weight: 3450 lb**
    EPA Mileage Rating: 32 mpg/38 mpg***

    * Likely
    ** Assuming 100 lb. weight gain
    *** Expected

    I expect the Accord V6 to be far smoother than the TDI in the Passat to go with it. IMO, HAH wins rather easily (unless my assumptions are way off).
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Correct, but as we all know, CVTs are in the very early stages. Very few are available on very few cars. Obviously this and SMG type transmissions are probably the future of transmissions as manuals are probably as efficient now as they are ever going to get(not taking into account for the addition of 6+forward speeds).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I had a CVT in a scooter, once you got used to it (no engine braking) it was pretty cool.

    The TDI will be discounted, while the HAH will demand MSRP for a while. The real different is more than $1000, may even be $3000. That'll buy your fuel for a life time.

    The HAH should outperform it easily, though. Reliability should be better, but any new hybrid carries some risk.

    Interesting how similar they are in that chart, though.

    -juice
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    Spur gears, as used in manual transmissions, are most efficient. The Van Doorne design CVT has higher losses but its "infinite" ratios allow more efficient engine operation, as does a MT with more gears. A traditional, torque-converter/planetary gear auto transmission is lossy primarily due to the T-converter, although planetary gears are less efficient than spur gears. The clever planetary "CVT" in the Prius is another creature altogether since the drive ratio between the IC and drive wheels is governed by the electric drive and hence incurs the losses of the generator/electric drive IN ADDITION to those of the planetary gearset.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    "A traditional, torque-converter/planetary gear auto transmission is lossy primarily due to the T-converter"

    Another promise that AAD transmission holds (link above). If Honda is indeed preparing a 6 (or 8) speed AAD for a near future launch, it can makes things quite interesting. An AAD design can eliminate the need for torque convertor.
  • snowdonsnowdon Member Posts: 38
    Trying to find out if there are any other changes for the 2005 Accord?

    Michael
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Snowdon:

    ___You can see all there is to see on the Honda site in regards to the 2005 Accord’s. The updated 2005 info was posted I believe this morning. Dual Auto climate appears to be missing from all but the V6 EX this year? Dual Zone Auto Climate is shown as std. w/ the EX w/ leather in the individual trim levels just like the 2004 however? All versions now include side and curtain airbags. Also lighted window, lock, and steering wheel controls on the EX +. These are the two biggies anyway. There is a different tail light assembly and the price rose by a few hundred bucks but overall, the 2005 appears to be a better overall deal now imho.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    That seems like a lot of changes considering the complete mid-cycle update doesn't happen until the 2006 models next fall.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Major change is addition of side airbags and side curtain airbags in DX and LX models. Honda had promised inclusion of these in all Acura/Honda vehicles by 2005. So, I guess, this is where it starts.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think the target was 2006. That way Honda can apply the approach to the next-gen Civic et. al.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You’re correct. I found the following information from this one year old article in hondanews.com.

    - All Honda and Acura vehicles, with the exception of a small number of specialty vehicles, will get Front Side Airbags, Side Curtain Airbags and Anti-Lock Brakes as standard equipment before the end of calendar year 2006.
    - All Honda and Acura light trucks, including all SUVs and minivans, will be equipped with Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) and rollover sensors for side curtain airbag deployment before the end of calendar year 2006.
    - Honda's Advanced Compatibility Engineering body structure, offering enhanced occupant protection with reduced aggressivity toward other vehicles, will be applied to all new vehicle platforms in the U.S. and globally over the next six to seven years. The 2005 model Honda Odyssey minivan and Acura RL sedan will be the first U.S. models to carry this new technology.

    In its efforts to improve safety for all road users, Honda will further expand the use of features designed to reduce injuries to pedestrians from the current industry-leading eight models.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They gave themselves plenty of time - calendar year 2006 might be MY2007.

    I think the Passat already has that stuff, and Toyota already does that for its SUVs. So they're not exactly pioneering anything.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Side airbags and side curtain airbags are still optional in many Toyota light trucks. The new Sienna also has side airbags and side curtain airbags as well as stability system optional.

    In case of Honda’s promise, it is more about offering these things across the board, including the lowest trims. Even (2005) Accord DX would have ABS, side airbags and side curtain airbags as standard equipment. I wonder if 2005 Civic will get all these too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like a marketing pitch to me.

    Fact is Honda has been notorious for *NOT* offering safety features on its base models, the DX for instance, and in some cases in the past, even the LX.

    Now they are trying to make it sound like it's a big deal that the Accord will finally get what the Passat has had since 1998 or so.

    The way I see it, it's Johnny Come Lately. Not pioneer.

    In the case of the Civic, well, even then I think the Jetta was way, way ahead of the game. Subaru Impreza also, since 2002 ABS was standard. Even GM made ABS standard, but later deleted that to compete in price with the Koreans.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    VW can afford to offer features that cars competing in the price range can. I wonder if they would, if the Passat were selling at an MSRP of $16K. The real notorious automaker (among foreign makes) has been Toyota.

    And everything that an automaker does, is to deliver a marketing pitch.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True, but how do we know that Honda's price won't creep up along with the content as well? I'm sure they will.

    I guess the thing is I've been frustrated many time in the past when car shopping several Hondas. LXs didn't come with ABS, and when they did you couldn't get a manual tranny.

    This was true for the Civic, Accord, and CR-V, all which I shopped at some point in time in the last decade or so. Basically they tend to package safety equipment only higher-end models.

    Maybe Honda is making up for it by adding SAC and VSA on base models as well, but I still see them as catching up rather than leading the pack.

    -juice
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Let us look at this from another direction … The lowly 05 Corolla LE w/ Auto as an example can be purchased with side and side curtains, ABS, EBD, VSC, TRAC, and TPM. You are looking at an ~ $16,000 automobile when purchased as any automobile enthusiast would purchase it at close to invoice pricing. The 05 Camry can be purchased with all of these + BA. Even the 05 Accord EX unless you purchase the overly expensive V6 let alone the Civic of any trim doesn’t receive BA, TRAC, TPM, or its own version of stability control/assist called VSA as std. or even as an option! You have to purchase an EX trimmed Civic just to receive ABS? This makes absolutely no sense! Honda is woefully behind the times in regards to safety items and it will eventually bite them on the lower trims and compacts if they don’t get with the program imho. They still receive stunning crash ratings which are a testament to Honda engineering but lacking all of the above or only placing them in the most expensive of trims (the Accord EX/LX V6/EX V6) is a glaring example of penny pinching at its finest. It is funny how a $16,000 Toyota Corolla can be purchased with all of the above and a $16,000 Civic or $22,000 Accord cannot? This is just one of many reasons I decided to purchase an 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto back in 03 instead of a Civic LX/EX.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In theory, it can, but you'd probably have to order it. Even then only if it even comes with a manual tranny.

    We had just as much trouble with the Camry. SE manual trannys were scarce and forget about ABS, we tried 3 dealers before giving up.

    So they may have a la carte ordering but dealers are still pinching pennies on optional safety features.

    Our conclusion was that at Honda you had to get an EX and/or an automatic, with Toyota you pretty much had to special order it.

    We got a 2002 Subaru. They haven't sold any cars without ABS since 2002 (Legacy since 1999), so it was easy.

    Wagon or sedan? Manual or auto? Pick a color, any color, they have them all. With ABS.

    Honda will offer that (minus the wagon) for MY2007, 8 years behind the Legacy, and that's news?

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Price will, and has. But based on pricing, VW Passat compares better with Accord EX and above.

    How much did Legacy cost in 1999-2000? If it were a $20K or less car, then I agree, Honda wasn’t offering ABS as standard feature (optional in LX, and standard above it). You shouldn’t compare cars without consideration to pricing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Legacy had AWD standard so we can't compare directly, I guess. But yeah, my wife's was $17,827 plus tax.

    At the time an Accord EX would have run about $19k, and like I said we could not even find a Camry SE the way we wanted it but it would have been $18k or more.

    Any how, Honda's PR spiel didn't impress me one bit, perhaps the hybrid itself will. I liked the Prius a lot.

    -juice
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    Seems like it's been a very long time since I signed up to get info from Honda on their HAH web page. Has anyone out there received any "exclusive updates" yet? I've recently increased my daily commute distance by a factor of 20, so I'm eager to see some real-world numbers. Reckon I'll just have to wait till "later this year," unless Honda pulls a Lexus 400h number on us.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    eman5:
    I thought somebody mentioned a December release for the HAH. If that is the case, you may have to wait a little longer.

    juice:
    I assume the price paid was not MSRP.
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