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Nope. I expected it to be more expensive than V6. I expected it to be a vehicle that is purchased for emissions, performance, or emotioanal reasons and not for cost savings. Like other hybrids, the fuel savings do not justify the increase in cost for the technology based on current fuel prices. It does have other advantages.
Better Emissions
Better Performance
Better Gas Mileage
than Accord V6.
OTOH, people pay, $4K more to get Accord EXV6 over Accord EX, for? Let us see
Better Performance. Anything else you want to add here?
Okay it is supposed to be 255 hp and get 32/38
But what about the features? Will theybe the same as the current EX? Some additional : mpg gauges, charge meteres ?
Someone indicated no sun roof? any truth?
What about weight ?
YMMV,
MidCow
Transmission:
Auto (possibly with Sport Shift) is for sure. 6-speed manual is a strong possibility, since it exists, and IMA supports manual transmission.
Features:
Everything that is offered in Accord EXV6 and then some. Moon roof doesn’t appear to be a part of the package. So, this duo may be similar to the Civic EX/Civic Hybrid duo, where the EX has moon-roof but the hybrid doesn’t. Everything else is similar between Civic EX and Civic Hybrid except that the hybrid gets better interior, more sound insulation, automatic climate control and a more aerodynamic body.
Curb Weight:
Accord EXV6 (auto) tops out at about 3375 lb. The Hybrid may be 75-100 lb. or so heavier.
I do find it interesting that Honda is going after the performance market, while Ford used the economical 4 cylinder as a starting point. We'll see which strategy pays off.
I don't think hybrid buyers are low-end, cheap folks, who can't afford something better. I think they are actually high-end shoppers looking for a greener high-tech alternative.
V6 hybrids could use performance as a selling point. Noone will say it has a weak low-end...
-juice
The hybrid does not even have a moonroof!
For just a little more you can have a new 270HP TL with way more equipment standard!
255hp/260ft-lb. That is almost equivalent to a good 3.5L engine.
And, you get 32/38 EPA rating... for $3000 more.
I am not complaining.
For under $24K you can get into a 2004 Accord EXV6.
$30K for the the lightly-equipped hybrid is nothing to rave over. It doesn't make any sense.
I am sure it will sell, but the extra horsepower does not impress me much. The 4 cyl Accord can double the speed limit in all but a few states. That is plenty fast for me.
Honestly, I would pay a 2-3,000 over what a 4-cyl Accord costs, so 21,000 would be tops for the Hybrid Accord for me. FWIW I have no interst in the regular V-6 Accord, and if given a choice for the same price I would take the 4-cyl (obviously not taking resale value into account)
For $6K more than EX V6 ($30K), I agree, it is not a good deal any more to me.
I don't know how you reach the conclusion, "lightly equipped" because I have seen any list of standard equipments for Accord Hybrid yet.
Accord Hybrid might be using a 2-3 times more powerful electric motor than Civic Hybrid. HCH motor develops 36 lb.-ft @ 1000 rpm, and 13.4 HP @ 2500-4000 rpm. By 5700 rpm, the power output is down to about 8 HP.
We don't know where the "overall peak" will occur, but if Honda is accomplishing this with electric motor twice as powerful as HCH, we're looking at 80 lb.-ft or so, gain at very low end speeds. So, there is a potential for peak torque around 260-275 lb.-ft AND have 255 HP at the top end.
In the same tone, why spend $21K getting an LX (or $26K getting an EXV6) when DX would get the job done for $5-10K less.
It is only $18k for an LX, and real world mileage for Hybrids, while still good, has been below their EPA numbers. The EPA diff for the Hybrid over the 4 cyl is about 15% not 35%, and in real life may only be 10% or so. I am all for efficiency, but that is a lot of money for modest gains.
S2000 ( really like it but small , 2 people, small luggage)
Nissan 350Z 6-speed
G35 Coupe 6-speed
TL 6-speed
Accord Coupe v-6 6-speed
I have looked at high miles per gallon cars:
Prius ( mediocre perfromnce and handling, auto only)
HCH, Civic EX 5-speed: low performance
Corolla 5-speed: Actually very nice for the price!
VW Golf TDI 5-speed (fairly low perfromance, great handling , reliaiblity question)
Dodge SRT-4 5-speed ( it's still a Neon, low Dodge quality, low resale, potential turbo reliaiblity problems, awesome power, awesome brakes, great price 1% under invoice.)
I have tried Americn cars, once had a 1990 Ford Taurus SHO 5-speed. Great car for two(2) year until it turned into a Ford and had repair and reliability problems. The ONLY time an extened warranty paid off.
Had a 1998 BMW M3 sedan 5-speed (the SRT-4 has about the same power feleleing). Good car but very expensive to fix if not covered by warranty.
YMMV,
MidCow
You can see it doesn't have the same level of equipment as an EXV6 since the photos show it doesn't have a moonroof.
If you are power-hungry and find the 240HP EXV6 inadequate, you can get a new, 270HP Acura TL automatic for under $32K after discounting (which would be less than $2000 more if the hybrid Accord were selling for $30K) and pick up lots more standard equipment for the small price premium over the $30,000 Accord Hybrid.
To you, perhaps, but I'd be willing to bet there will be wait lists for these.
255hp/260ft-lb sound like TL numbers. The instant-on torque might even make it feel friskier than the TL in some circumstances, perhaps better throttle response.
For less money with better mileage and range. My point is performance is comparable.
Remember something, folks, hybrids are hoping and aiming for 10% market share by the end of the decade, that means if 89% of you don't buy one then they exceeded their goal by 1%, a huge success.
They're not trying to convert everyone.
-juice
OR THE 2005 G6-GTP.
A MATTER OF FACT THERE WILL ALSO BE A GRAND PRIX GXP.
AS FAR AS THIS QUALITY ISSUE GOES CONSUMER REPORT WHICH IS BASICALLY ANTI DOMESTIC REPORTED THAT IN 1999 HONDA HAD ABOUT 34 DEFECTS PER 1000 AND PONTIAC HAD 97 PER 1000.
BUT IN 2003 HONDA HAD 11 AND PONTIAC HAD 14 PER 1000. I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD WAKE UP AND REALIZE THE FACTS NOT HYPE.
RIGHT NOW THE EUROPEAN CARS HAVE THE WORSE RECORD FOR PROBLEMS IN THE BUSINESS. THE IMPORTS THROW OUT RESIDUALS BUT WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT REBATES,INSURANCE,MAINTANCE,PARTS,THEFT RECORDS, ETC AFTER A 5 YEAR PERIOD DOMESTIC CARS ARE A BETTER OVERALL DEAL.
LARRYD
The catch there is resale - Grand Prix depreciates like a sky diver jumping out of an airplane. You'll find 2-3 year old used ones for $10 grand at the local Budget Rent-a-car used car lot.
The honda will depreciate about half as fast.
So the TCO is much, much higher.
-juice
Getting better than EPA estimate (I fall in this category)
Getting EPA estimate
Getting worse then EPA estimate
Which of these three apply to non-hybrid cars? All. And which of them apply to hybrid cars? All. I don’t see a point in making an argument on these lines, hence.
Now regarding MSRP versus Market Price, sure, it is possible to get a discount on a high inventory item compared to another with high inventory “turnaround” (or high demand item), but that’s not a logical way technology, and trim level is it? Let us look at it this way: When 2005 Accord comes around, Honda will announce pricing changes (assume):
DX: 17K
LX: 21K
LXV6: 23K
EX: 24K
EXV6: 26K
Hybrid: 29K
Or, will the company quote “market price”?
-juice
DX/LX/EX auto is rated at 24/33, I believe. My 98 Accord EX (auto) was rated at 23/30, and I average about 24-25 mpg (mostly city), and 31-33 mpg highway.
-juice
Final Odometer Reading: 17,360
Best Fuel Economy: 30.0 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 14.5 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 24.1 mpg
Looks like their experience was below EPA estimates.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/honda/accord/100144772/roadtesta- rticle.html?articleId=98548&editorialpage=page005
Some mileage numbers from Consumer Reports - the V6 Accord got 34 mpg on the highway (EPA 30). The Chevrolet Malibu with a 3.5 liter V-6 got 38 mpg on the highway (EPA 32), 4 cyl Accord 38 mpg (33 EPA) – that is for automatic transmission, the manual would do even better. I threw in the Malibu because it is a domestic sample.
Now for some hybrids. The Honda Civic got 45 mpg on the highway (EPA 48), the Insight got 66 highway (EPA 68), the Prius got 50 highway (EPA 51). What do all the hybrids have in common? Under identical test conditions they cannot quite match the EPA highway numbers. What do the non-hybrids have in common? They all easily surpass the EPA numbers.
So how do hybrids do on mileage compared to similar non-hybrids? This is why I am not too confident that the hybrid Accord will do much better (if any) than the 4-cyl Accord in mileage.
We can't really discuss city mileage because there are too many variables between tests, but from what I have read people tend to not get 60 mpg in the city in their Prius's.
Now if Honda had made a 4-cylinder hybrid Accord, then that might have impressed me more. I think hybrids have their place, and they do get good mileage, but there are much simpler less expensive ways to get the same results.
Prius (4): 35 (overall 44)
Malibu (4): 16 (overall 24)
Galant (4): 16 (overall 23)
Verona (6): 14 (overall 20)
Stratus (4): 14 (overall 21)
So in the CR's "real world" tests, the 4-cylinder Prius more than doubled the fuel economy of four other midsized cars (one V6, the other 4-cylinder). It exactly doubled the average overall mpg of the four other cars.
Note too that CR's tests are not conducted under identical test conditions. We don't know if the drivers were the same, for example. Another big variable is weather. The Prius test was conducted last winter, which was pretty cold for New York State as I recall. So it is appropriate I think to compare results conducted by CR at the same time, but not those conducted in different tests, unless you allow for differences.
I haven't seen a comprehensive feature list(and I doubt you have to).
Do you realize the Accord they show is a preproduction model and it may not be totally representative of the production model to come out in the fall?
Also, the Accord Hybrid would have one big advantage which is so simple to grasp: Much better gas mileage. A average TL driver probably gets about 21MPG in mixed driving while the hybrid should get well over 30.
Yes the Prius does well in the city- that is where it shines, I don't know that the Honda versions will do quite as well since they don't have electric only mode. For example CR got the Civic at 26 in the city, which is actually worse than they got with the non hybrid Toyota Echo in the city (29 mpg). The Echo did have the advantage of a manual tranny, so they may be about the same.
CR always tests going both ways to account for wind, and the car is always fully warmed up before the mileage is measured to account for cold weather - yes there may be some variances, but they would probably be minor. I also doubt they do any measuring during any extremly hot, cold or windy weather. They keep their cars for months, so they can wait for an appropriate day.
Also the TL did even better than the Accord v6 on the CR highway test at 35 mpg. Impressive for that much power!
The HAH, especially if it has a 6-speed option, will sell!
YMMV,
MidCow
>> from EPA.gov ..
The test used to determine the city fuel economy estimate simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 miles per hour (mph). The trip takes 31 minutes and has 23 stops. About 18 percent of the time is spent idling, as in waiting at traffic lights or in rush hour traffic. The maximum speed is 56 mph. The engine is initially started after being parked overnight. Vehicles are tested at 68 F to 86 F ambient temperature.
The test to determine the highway fuel economy estimate represents a mixture of "non-city" driving. Segments corresponding to different kinds of rural roads and interstate highways are included. The test simulates a 10-mile trip and averages 48 mph. The maximum speed is 60 mph. The test is run with the engine warmed up and has little idling time and no stops (except at the end of the test).
NOTE: To make the numbers in the Fuel Economy Guide more useful for consumers, EPA adjusts these laboratory test results to account for the difference between controlled laboratory conditions and actual driving on the road. The laboratory fuel economy results are adjusted downward to arrive at the estimates in the Fuel Economy Guide and on the labels seen on new cars, light trucks, and vans. The city estimate is lowered by 10% and the highway estimate by 22% from the laboratory test results. Experience has proven that these adjustments make the mileage estimates in the Fuel Economy Guide correspond more closely to the actual fuel economy realized by the average driver.
Motor Trend just released thier long term test and averaged 40.8 mpg. While this is excellent, it is in no way close to EPA numbers.
An analyst team with enginners could look at the 20 year old out-of-date EPA test and design a car that would excel at the EPA test, but not necessarily at real-world driving. Toyota apparently took on the reverse enginnering challenge and succeeded. We it would be a success if the Prius were profitable.
Long-termas Mr. Prius likes to think Toyota, is putting thier loss leader out, to steer poepl to the technology and sell cars that actually make a profit. In many cases Toyota dealers are currently using the ole "bait and switch" technique. No we don't have any Prius in stock and they are backordeed for the foreseeable future, but we have an Echo or a Corolla we can sell you. If you need more space we have 5 different models of SUVs , including this excellent sized Sequoia which will hold everything you could ever want.
I think there is a new book about to be released "How to lie with EPA Numbers"
YMMV,
MidCow
Anyway, how about that Honda Accord Hybrd, eh? Just what those who want better performance in a hybrid have been looking for. Just plop down your $30k and you too can shave a second or two off the 0-60 time of an Accord LX, for only $10-12k more.
I think this is making accusation without proof. You probably understand the architecture of Prius as much as I do. What is unique about Prius is that the Atkinson ICE is NOT driving the car. It is the electric motor. The performance of battery is heavily influenced by weather (mainly temperature).
Honda hybrids are taking a different route. The DC motor is attached to the flywheel to HELP drive the car. Therefore, there is no EM (electric motor) only mode as many Toyota supporter like to brag about. Therefore, Honda's design theme is more like "Improve performance without sacrificing MPG". Prius, on the other hand is more technically advanced, but most owners get 40-45mpg combined on survey.
I am a supporter of any hybrid technology not because it makes sense financially (well, it doesn't!), but it is the right way from performance and environmental point views. Think about it, today, so much energy is wasted on braking, idling, and running ICE (internal combusion engine) at off-optimal rpm. Hybrids are our first step to recover those lost energy and put them to good use. As demand increases, and material/production method improves, the cost of hybrids would surely come down. No automaker has doubts that hybrids would grow dramatically in near future.
Yes, EPA knows the inaccuracy in their test, and is in the process of revising the test procedure. Before that happens, EPA is still the most trust worthy test than CR. No offense to CR, but they are still a commercial organization. Your driving pattern is unique.
> no way close
Being vague is a method of misleading. We are not falling for that.
Here's what it actually says on the window-sticker itself:
"Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway."
That clearly points out how widely values can range. It also stresses the importance of "long term" testing. None of this "a couple of weeks" crap. It must be a minimum of a year, to properly expose the vehicle to all possible driving conditions. Otherwise, you can't claim it is representative of real-world data.
JOHN
Back to you statement about window mileage sticker, all that is, is a one standard deviation hedge on the EPA tests.
One standard deviation, means that out of a statistically large enough sample it will approximate a Bell curve and that for an example of a CITY mpg of 60 that the deviation will be -9 mpg to a low of 51 mpg and a deviation of plus +9 to a mpg of 69.
Since you have a limited math background I will further explain standard deviation. One standard deviation accounts for 68% of the results that a person will statistically receive around an average with a normal distribution. Unless otherwise known a normal distribution bell-curve is the model used to represent data.
So in real simple terms approximately 2/3 of the ALL the people who buy a Prius will get City mileage in the range between 51 mpg and 69 mpg. This includes 34 year old single web designers to petal-to-the-metal auto club testers at MT to teenagers to granmothers.
YMMV mine is usually lower than EPA, but I think the Accord Hybrid will be available have good power and handling and significantyl outsell the Prius. I am not sure why the Prius is even being talked about on this forum on the Accord Hybrid.
MidCow
That's interesting.
JOHN
So John, can I assume that you are interested in the Honda Accord Hybrid and might be thinking of trading in your Prius ?
You continue to crack me up. Everything is vague to you if you don't have an answer or if it disagrees with you high and mighty vision of the Prius or if you don't think it is "Long-Term"
You are just too much.
MidCow
... I think the Accord Hybrid will be available have good power and handling and significantyl outsell the Prius.
MidCow, you seem to have some inside info on the HAH--maybe you could share it with us. How do you know the HAH will achieve much closer to its EPA ratings than the Prius, and that it will significantly outsell the Prius? Do you have some info on Honda's production targets for the HAH? I haven't been able to find any info on that.
Honda Accord EXV6: $27,000 MSRP
Honda Accord Hybrid: $30,000 MSRP Predicted
Acura TL: $32,000 MSRP
Acura TSX: $26,000
The Accord Hybrid in my opinion, is a perfect stepping stone between the Accord EXV6 and the TL. The TSX caters to a different type of customer than the Accord/TL.
They would appeal to such a small number of people they wouldn't make sense to build.
It's not 10% in a car like that...MUCH less!
___If you want the cleanest cars, you do not need to purchase a high priced hybrid by any means.
http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp
___Although not a PZEV in my neck of the woods, I saw a used 03 2.4 L EX w/ Auto with just 21,000 miles on her going for $18,200. I am sure that equates to $16 - $16,500 out the door after a bit of bargaining. In the green states, you could probably find used PZEV rated Accord’s or Camry’s at similar low prices
___If you want to decrease your fuel consumption and lower your CO/CO2 as well as HC/NOx/PM emissions from any car you drive including a Hybrid, slow down to the speed limits and learn to beat EPA estimates tank after tank after tank.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Eric, a correction. 72% torque of Atkinson ICE always goes to drive the wheels. Horsepower that PSD split from ICE depends on the MG1's RPM.
Now for HAH highway 38 MPG number, why so low? On the highway, it can run on only three cylinders(VCM) right? Even Prius can get 51MPG with 4 cylinders. Two cars have similar frontal area to push the air out. HSD superiority shows.
Dennis
Now for HAH highway 38 MPG number, why so low? On the highway, it can run on only three cylinders(VCM) right? Even Prius can get 51MPG with 4 cylinders. Two cars have similar frontal area to push the air out. HSD superiority shows.
___Where do you dream this stuff up? The HAH has at least 275 HP on tap and is possibly a sub 7 second automobile with a larger frontal area and a higher Cd. 38 mpg from the HAH that is easily at least twice as powerful as that of the Prius II is in fact extraordinary. When a Prius begins running 0 - 60 in < 7 seconds and gets 51 mpg, then your claim would be valid. So far, the Prius II’s run ~ 10.5 seconds to 60 and are receiving far less then 51 mpg for the average driver so it isn’t even close
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I stand corrected on the Prius's torque distribution. But, bashing Honda Accord Hybrid by comparing it to Prius is out of line. Let us wait and see what kind of MPG Highlander/RX400h will get. Then, it is a more fair comparison. Comparable in horse power (near 270hp for Toyota, and 255hp(rumored) for Honda). Both have 3.0L to 3.3L ICE on board.
xcel, you forgot to mention that it takes Prius another 10-15 seconds to reach 80mph from 60mph. I admire Prius' technical achievement, but it is not in the same league as Honda Accord Hybrid in performance.
Look at Prius GT Concept. 0-60 in 8.7 sec. Fuel economy stays the same.
"The HAH has at least 275 HP on tap "
240+hp is when all 6 cylinders and electric motor are activated at the same time. What does it got to do with cruising with 3 cylinders on the highway? The point is that, VCM does not work as well as Honda claimed.
Dennis
You still believe that Prius' ICE never turn the wheel but only the electric motor? That is completely wrong.
"But, bashing Honda Accord Hybrid by comparing it to Prius is out of line."
That has been done so many times, bashing Prius' performance. I am just giving back the dose of their own medicine. Oh boy, the game that these guys played are fun! The guilty one knows who I am talking about. :-P
Dennis
In the spirit of staying on-topic - happy Monday.
- You didn't answer my RX400h/Highlander vs HAH question. Why the former also claims 35mpg not 50+mpg as Prius does? If Prius can output 250hp, then it would compare better with HAH. Don't you think?
- You said, "The point is that, VCM does not work as well as Honda claimed", Well, it seems like you have tried it or know that for a fact. Could you elaborate more on how you reach that conclusion? I certainly would like to know more about it since most people here haven't.
- From what I heard, VCM has the cylinders reactivated the moment you press down the gas pedal. Save gas in cruising w/o hurting performance when you need it. It seems like a great concept. Why don't you think it work?
- Well Prius is being bashed for performance because it does not have it. Concept aside, Prius today still takes 10.5 sec to 60mph, that is about 1 sec slower than my 4400lbs Odyssey. I won't call my Odyssey a performance vehicle not to mention the Prius.
I am a supporter of all Hybrids, Toyota, Honda or any makers. Thinking Prius wins in all categories is just unreal. Prius does not have the contents to dominate in all categories. Prius is a great achievement in technology, and it has good mpg (average consumers got 40-45mpg no matter what EPA label says), and it has a long waiting list. Performance wise, it cannot touch HAH with improved mpg. That is very sure to me unless you can prove me wrong. I am very willing to listen.