Hybrid Honda Accord

sd1228

This article has some more info about upcoming
hybrid models (including accord)
http://www.forbes.com/business/forbes/2004/0419/042.html

rabo

As others, I'm wondering whether the hybrid will have features that the non-hybrid version will have - such as fold down rear seat, sunroof, etc. Feature set was not followed from the Civic to the Civic Hybrid!

robertsmx

Civic Hybrid got a few other features that regular Civics don't.

In case of Accord, there isn't much that Honda can add to the long list of standard features that are part of Accord EXV6.May be some deletions (like moonroof) and additions (like stability control).

Last month, Honda sold 2725 units of Civic Hybrid, about 10% of total Civic sales. I doubt the Accord sales would follow the same percentage, but it may not be too bad. Even if it is 5%, we would be talking 1500-1600 units/month.

jchan2

is that enough to keep the waiting lists short? Who knows? I'm interested and actually saving up $$$ for an Accord Hybrid....

tlauro

The added HP that is targeted won't add much in performance given the extra wieght. Besides, the added HP isn't going to do much for most folks. Haven't seen too many hybrids at the track lately.

Peak HP isn't an issue even at 240hp. What the V6 needs is more torque. Hopefully the electric motors will drive the rear wheels and add the needed torque. Otherwise, a simple tranny upgrade will fix that. Come on Honda....the 5spd is less than bullet proof as it is. Beef it up with a better Torque Converter while you're working on the improvements.

Or give us the 3.2l or 3.5l motor. 270hp / 300hp respectively is already proven. I'll take either of those...hybrid or not

"In addition to that it will improve upon the performance of Accord V6 with the fuel economy of a Civic. If it could deliver 250-260 HP"

maxhonda99

tiger0,

I would think they wouldn't have a hard time selling about 40K accord hybrids the first year.

ateixeira

Prius and Sienna and the top 2 in demand cars, shortest supply. I seriously doubt they'll have any trouble at all selling Accord hybrids for the first year or two at least.

HCH is small and that limits its appeal, but the Accord hybrid will appeal to a broad range of buyers.

-juice

Kirstie_H

New "reply" button next to messages, included FREE with Town Hall membership.

jchan2

Honda Civic Hybrid is also expensive for its size- compared to the Prius at least. Which brings another issue. If Honda prices the Accord Hybrid low enough, customers will be swarming through dealer doors with a checkbook in hand and the keys and title to their current car. But I seriously doubt the price of the Accord Hybrid will be under $29,000.

webster7

Honda isn't giving out any more info other than the three cylinder cut-out. I would like the Accord Hybrid to include the CVT, fold down rear seats, optional full electric operation, batteries that I can top off in my garage and all the features available on the EX Accord. Just being able to get 35 MPG and to say you own a Hybrid is not enough.

jchan2

personally, I'd like a Navigation system and leather seats. Oh yeah, I would also like the Hybrid badge on the back and the federal tax breaks.

venus537

the accord hybrid having more peak horsepower, more low end torque (though this not a problem as one poster implied) and getting 35 mpg while keeping all its positive attributes is more than good enough.

it certainly isn't going to be designed to have its batteries topped off.

having it equipped somewhere between the current LXV6 and EXV6 sounds smart too in order to keep the price down.

i also predict that the cylinder de-activiation will be standard on all V6 equipped accords when it's redesigned.

ateixeira

AN reported that the Odyssey will get cylinder deactivation.

-juice

midnightcowboy

The Accord will use the IMA concept and be a mild hybrid, rather than a full hybrid like the Toyota Prius. Therefroe you will porbably not get the "electirc only mode".

The Only reason the HCH doesn't have folddown seats is because that's were the batteries were placed. The Accord is bigger and should have more flexilibity; it they make a temporay spare, then they could be in the wheel well.

Unlike Toyota, I think Honda will keep the powewr seat, leather and sunroof features.

An best of all, Honda will probalby offer the Hybrid Accrod with a manual transmission. Actually the current HCH CVT is probably not strong enough to hand the V6 torque along with the IMA and will have to be redesigned anyway. If anything it will probably be a beffed up version of the current 5-speed automatic transmission.

Why can't Honda release some information? At the recent Houston Auto show, the honda reps were clueless.

robertsmx

There should be little improvement at the top end (10-15 or may be 20 HP), but the bigger difference from electric motors will be seen off idle, in 1000-3500 rpm range.

Regarding weight, IMA is relatively (compared to THS) is compact and light. In Civic, it adds only 63 lb. Even if the Accord version is a little bulkier for more power, it will still improve power to weight ratio at the top end, and considerably at the low end.

usbseawolf2000

I don't know about the electric motor that will be in the new Accord but Civic electric motor seems to reach max torque and HP at less than 1,000 RPM. So, you will notice the most at 0 - 1,000 RPM.

In IMA design, electric motor RPM and ICE RPM speed are static(1:1). But in HSD, MG2:ICE ratio depends on MG1's RPM(electrically controlled). For example, when ICE is at 2,500 RPM, MG2 could be at 1,200 RPM. In HSD, a simple ECVT works between wheel and ICE as well as between ICE and the 50KW electric motor.

A very important point in the difference between hybrid designs.

Dennis

robertsmx

In Civic Hybrid, the peak torque happens from idle (about 1000 rpm) to 2500 rpm. Peak power arrives at 4000 rpm. Now, this is using a thin brushless DC motor squeezed between the transmission and the gasoline motor (this provides the flexibility to offer manual or automatic/CVT transmission).

It is possible that Honda could use its (large) AC motor the company developed for EV-Plus (electric vehicle) and currently being used in Honda FCX (fuel cell vehicle). This motor is rated at 201 lb.-ft at 0 rpm to 1750 rpm (and 68 HP from 1800 rpm to 5700 rpm).

It can get interesting if Honda opts to use the latter, but added bulk would be the downside (larger battery/ultra capacitor pack). Not sure which of the two electric motors prototypes like the Honda Dualnote (2001 Tokyo Motor Show)/ Acura DNX (2002 NAIAS) and the high performance European Accord concept (2002 Geneva Auto Show with 200 HP gasoline motor and 100 HP electric motor) used.

I have a feeling that Accord Hybrid will see the first option, a more powerful version of the ultra-thin brushless DC motor. It will help save weight.

midnightcowboy

Just becuase an electric motor is high torque in the range 0-1000 or 0-1500 doesn't mean that is equated to the engine running the same speed. Actaully , the torque of the electric motor can be added to the torque of the ICE running at a diffentert RPM. Most ICE engines, especaily more fuel efficinet smaller displacement engines have low torque at low RPM. However, I am sure you are aware that Torque is directly related to RPM and HP by the engineering formula: HP= (torque * RPM)/ 5252 or if you solve in terms of torque, torque=(HP *5252)/RPM. Ideally you want a smooth engine with a flat torque curve. However, many of the smaller displacement advance engines have a very peaky torque maximum at 4000-5000 RPM. And to augment this Honda used VTEC which changed cams and intake at low RPM to provide a secondary torue cure peak. New technology is the contiously vairable intake/exhuast cam such as Toyotas VVit whic hsignificnatly flattens the torque curve. However , it still boils donw to torques is based on engine diplacement and the length of the stroke. However, big long stoke engines have lower max RPM, use more gas and are less reponsive.

Honda engines typically are low torque, partially because of small displacement and partially becuase they are tuned for high RPM efficincy, i,e, better gas mileage. The elctic motor or iMA Honda assist , along with VCM (vaiable cylinder management) and some gearing should allow the Huybrid Accord to have Low end torque in therange idle:800 RPM through 3,000 RPM, excellent mileage 34/40 and excellent perfomance 0-60 5.9 seconds.

However the CVT type transmission used in the current HCH is not sufficient to handle this increas in power and the Hybrid Accord will have a 5-speed automatic and a 6-speed manual (from Acura TL) as standard offerings.

Honda had a goal to keep the fully loaded Hybrid Accord under 30K even with NAV and preliminary information indicated they will achive that goal. Actually thier real target was to provide a slightly decontented Hybrid Accord, called Option #9, which would not have leather, sunroof, or adjustable seats. But would have HID, VSC, ABS, NAV, Samrt Entry, Bluetooth for $26,995 Not only will they achieve that they will make the 3-6-9-12 month for the Prius competiton go away as the waiters on the prius lists cancel thier orders and switch to the Hybrid Accord.

wco81

"Honda engines typically are low torque, partially because of small displacement and partially becuase they are tuned for high RPM efficincy, i,e, better gas mileage. The elctic motor or iMA Honda assist , along with VCM (vaiable cylinder management) and some gearing should allow the Huybrid Accord to have Low end torque in therange idle:800 RPM through 3,000 RPM, excellent mileage 34/40 and excellent perfomance 0-60 5.9 seconds.
...

Honda had a goal to keep the fully loaded Hybrid Accord under 30K even with NAV and preliminary information indicated they will achive that goal. Actually thier real target was to provide a slightly decontented Hybrid Accord, called Option #9, which would not have leather, sunroof, or adjustable seats. But would have HID, VSC, ABS, NAV, Samrt Entry, Bluetooth for $26,995"

All sounds too good to be true. Even if they keep the price that low, with all those specs. and those features, demand would drive up price above that MSRP.

jchan2

they might lose me as a customer. But that means that I'll simply pick out a regular Accord EX 4 cylinder instead of the higher priced Hybrid.

aspesisteve

some will buy a hybrid car as an environmental decision while others will look at cost savings at the pump in addition to the environmental factor.

I would guestimate that a comparibly equipted 4 cyl. Accord to that of the hybrid would cost $10,000 less; taking into consideration that Accords can be had for invoice or less, while the hybrid version will be in high demand for the first year.

$10,000 can buy alot of gas - to save 10 miles per gallon? It's easy enough to do the math and conclude that you're quite the environmentalist to go with the hybrid. imho

usbseawolf2000

"New technology is the contiously vairable intake/exhuast cam such as Toyotas VVit whic hsignificnatly flattens the torque curve."
    VVTI in Prius isn't the same as in other ICE only Toyota. Prius VVTI intake camshaft vary over 43 degress(compare to 3 deg) to achieve Atkinson cycle and the most flat torque curve I've seen.

"However , it still boils donw to torques is based on engine diplacement and the length of the stroke."
    You forgot about increasing torque with super/turbo charging. In HSD case, it is with the electric without any lag.

"Honda engines typically are low torque, partially because of small displacement and partially becuase they are tuned for high RPM efficincy"
    Prius Atkinson cycle ICE RPM range from 1,500 to 5,000 is more efficient than the most efficient(peak) Honda Otto cycle engine RPM. Prius still has 295 lbs-ft of electric torque(compare to IMA 36 lbs-ft). Who said high torque does not mix with an efficient engine? HSD really defies conventional thinking.

It is not Honda vs. Toyota but rather discussion about differences in design. I have open mind to hear advantages of Honda IMA design as well.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

Do you have any links for me to further learn about Honda IMA? How about torque/HP curve for ICE and DC motor? It seems that the DC motor behaves differenly than AC motor in term of torque/power delivery.

Dennis

robertsmx

I doubt it differs much (AC to DC). The compromise may be in terms of bulk versus power. As I mentioned earlier, Honda AC motor (being used in Honda FCX, and originally developed for Honda EV-Plus in the late 80s/early 90s) develops 201 lb.-ft from 0 rpm to 1750 rpm (peak power output is 68 HP from 1850 rpm to 5700 rpm).

The current IMA system (Insight and Civic Hybrid) uses ultra-thin brushless DC motor. The whole set up weighs only 63 lb. as a result the output is lower, and useful in assist mode instead of being the primary mover. Honda went for a compromise on heavy dependency on electric motor in favor of a lighter and more compact package. Hence a low output but small electric system was used.

It may be different in the Accord, if more power is to be extracted. Or, it may just be a more powerful variant of the electric system found in Civic Hybrid (there was an increase in output from electric motor going from Insight to Civic Hybrid in a smaller package, so the same can be expected going into Accord).

Other Honda Hybrid demonstrations [like the 400 HP (100 HP from electric motor) Honda Dual Note, 250 HP (60 HP from electric motor) Acura RDX and 300 HP (100 HP from electric motor) European Accord] have used more powerful but multiple electric motors (usually mounted in-wheel) and controlled via the IMA unit. Whether Honda has or will use its AC motor with IMA, remains to be seen. Honda could.

The shape of power/torque curve may not be much different. Here are some links that I gathered for you to look at.

Power/Torque Curve Comparison between Civic Hybrid and Civic LX: The torque curve is strongest at low rpm (with “combined” peak appearing at 1500 rpm). Of course this doesn’t show the power/torque curve of the electric motor alone, but “combined”.

This is the Power/Torque Curve for the 1.3 liter iDSI engine used in the Civic Hybrid. This is a high efficiency/low emissions, low end torque engine (uses two spark plugs per cylinder, and a 2-valve per cylinder SOHC configuration). It is rated at 86 HP @ 5700 rpm / 88 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm.

Here is a picture of the Ultra thin Brushless DC Motor used with the I-DSI gasoline engine in Civic Hybrid.

And here is a picture of the electric motor squeezed between the gasoline motor & transmission (CVT in this case)

ateixeira

The graph comparing the LX looks impressive, but then why isn't the hybrid a lot quicker than the LX in the real world? Isn't it about the same?

-juice

robertsmx

Mostly gearing I believe. The hybrid is geared too tall. Overall horsepower may be about the same, or a little less in the hybrid, and that would explain the difference. However, the hybrid should have much better low end drivability than the LX (or EX). Horsepower matters in the end, and with this application of hybrid, the Civic maxes out at only 94 HP. Under 4000 rpm, Civic Hybrid is stronger than the LX. After that, the torque curve dips below that of LXs (reflected in 0-60 times).

It will be interesting to see what Accord Hybrid will bring to the plate. IMO, Honda should use the 110 HP 1.5 liter I-4 (also used in Honda Jazz/Fit) with the IMA in the Civic Hybrid. It may or may not decrease mileage but will definitely improve performance. It might happen!

ateixeira

Good point, also the HCH only comes with an auto.

-juice

robertsmx

HCH is offered with 5-sp manual or CVT.

midnightcowboy

Actually you can get the HCH in a CVT auto or a 5-speed manual.

ateixeira

I'm having a bad fact-checking day (see GM Might thread also). Sorry.

-juice

usbseawolf2000

"The torque curve is strongest at low rpm (with “combined” peak appearing at 1500 rpm)."

That's not what I am seeing. Combined max torque curve is between 1,000 and 2,000 RPM. In that range, ICE torque is increasing. Therefore, the 10KW electric motor's torque must be starting to decrease at 1,000 RPM.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

Honda Civic Hybrid ICE Power Curve


04 Prius ICE Power Curve. Torque(blue) is almost flat!


Dennis

usbseawolf2000

Honda Civic Hybrid

ICE + 10KW Motor/Generator + Mechanical CVT



04 Prius

ICE + 10KW Motor/Generator1 + Planetary ECVT + 50KW Motor/Generator2



Dennis

usbseawolf2000

Honda Civic Hybrid (CVT?)



04 Prius. Notice: X-axis is speed, not RPM. Horsepower delivery shoots up very quickly and there are plenty of power in mid-range speed. The torque at the wheel decreases as the car gets faster. Consistent with changing into higher gear as in traditional transmission car.

Hope you enjoy this informative comparison.

Dennis

Kirstie_H

I'm not sure I really understand it, as I'm a mechanical zero, but interesting nonetheless. Mais, porquoi est-ce que le deuxième diagramme est en français?

ateixeira

The layouts have a lot in common.

Are those laid out longitudinally?

-juice

usbseawolf2000

Yes, I believe it is French. Anyway, blue curve is torque and red is horsepower.

What do you mean by longitudinally? Size wise? I am not sure.

Dennis

Kirstie_H

Hot Hybrids
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/101677/arti- cle.html

midnightcowboy

There are enough Hybrid comaprison threads and more than enough Prius threads.

Please get back on topic! The topic of this thread is "Hybrid Honda Accord 2005' It has nothing to do with the Prius,! The only thing is might have in common with the HCH is a similar IMA.

jchan2

I'd still go for the Hybrid Accord, as I'm quite the environmentalist. (hence why I chose the Odyssey over several more attractive SUV choices for my family transportation)

ateixeira

I meant front-to-back, or north-to-south. The way the powertrain is laid out in relation to the body of the vehicle.

OK, back on topic, how will the Accord's powertrain be laid out?

-juice

robertsmx

Should be identical to current Accord's. The base powerplant would be the same 3.0 liter V6 (but with Variable Cylinder Management added)

ateixeira

Transverse V6, then.

Any news about combined total output? Toyota claims 270hp for its 3.3l V6 + hybrid.

-juice

robertsmx

Unlike Toyota, Honda is always tightlipped about future offerings. While Toyota philosophy is to make a noise before the product is launched, Honda will disclose the details towards the end. In fact, the first news about Accord Hybrid came from Sanyo last year (who will be the supplier of batteries). Honda confirmed it recently.

Based on early rumors, Accord Hybrid will have 260-270 HP. Whether the gasoline power comes from 3.0-liter V6 VCM (used in Honda Inspire in Japan) or 3.5-liter V6 VCM (to be introduced with 2005 Odyssey) remains to be seen. Given the compatibility, and availability, I hope Honda offers HAH with 6MT

ateixeira

It'd be nice to see an MT with any of the Accord sedans.

-juice

maxhonda99

I would doubt Honda giving the Accord Hybrid a bigger 3.5L ICE than the TL. It's logical to think it will be the current 3.0L V6 with VCM, 5-speed automatic and IMA.

robertsmx

The only reason Honda could use J35 instead of J30 would be to obtain as much horsepower but at a lower rpm. But with Honda, one can never be sure. I still see J30 as the more likely candidate since it already sits in the car.

jchan2

the engine will be the 3.0 from the Inspire as to protect the TL.

blane

Nice to see you here with the open mind that some Future Models II forum folks lack.

ateixeira

I meant V6 models, of course.

Apply an FP package to one of those...

What if the hybrid electric power applied to the rear axle, for AWD as well?

I never stop asking "what if".

-juice