But remember, TCO involves resale value, and that may be better.
Look at it this way, if the hybrid costs $3000 more, but you get a $1500 tax credit (in MD, stay with me), you only paid $1500 more.
Then, say you sell it in 4 years. Resale value will likely be about that much higher ($1500 or so), so you'll recover your invesment.
So in that case the hybrid was "free".
Caveat - good point about the invoice pricing on the non-hybrids. In fact the cost may be a lot more than $3000, so do your own math to figure if you think it's worth it.
I still don't think the TCO of the Hybrid will come close to the 4-cyl Accord which can be had for under 18,000 in LX trim. The hybrid which will cost more than a regular V-6 may be upwards of 8,000 dollars more than this. On top of that the feul mileage while certainly excellent for a V-6 will not be much better (if any) than the 4 cylinder Accord. The feul mileage would certainly be no match for the diesel Accord 2.2 just introduced in Europe.
I am in favor of hybrids though. The more that are sold the cheaper they will get.
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MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
One consistent issue I have with posts regard cost of hybrids is that they always get compared to the base models. Why wouldn’t anybody compare TCO of Accord Hybrid to that of the comparable Accord EXV6? Granted that Accord Hybrid is expected to cost $2-3K more than EXV6, but to many (including me), additional power, (possible) additional features might weigh in besides “Civic-like” fuel economy and cleaner emissions.
I have averaged about 1250 miles/month over last seven years in my Accord. Assuming gas at $1.90/gallon and EPA estimate (21 mpg) as valid real life mileage (city) for EXV6, and “Civic-like” 30 mpg for Accord Hybrid would account for $450/year in savings on fuel ($3K in 81 months). This, while driving a more powerful, and potentially better-equipped version with cleaner emissions.
OTOH, one may never be able to recuperate the extra $3K one spent to get EXV6 over EX, or $6K over LX. But then, getting the more powerful version wasn’t meant to for recuperation in terms of dollars.
You are assuming the resale will be good. The resale of the Prius is poor, making leasing costs horrendous. Many people will be afraid to buy one used or the "next generation" of much better hybrids with vastly improved battery technology may be on the market when you're ready to sell. It may cost more than $3000 more when you compare real-world selling prices of the gas vs hybrid Accords plus the potential of added depreciation when today's high pricing doesn't hold up at resale time. Think of the people who bought the first, hot PT Cruisers who are trying to sell them today. Just comparing MSRP is useless when you can get the gas models for around invoice.
I compare to the LX Accord because that is the only one I would be interested in (EX does not have enough headroom). Another reason to compare to the LX is that we were discussing the possible advantage of the Hybrid in TCO, so it makes sence to compare it to another Honda that excels in this regard. Actually the DX would be the best comparison. People get those for well under $16k with A/C.
In Virginia, effective next month hybrids will no longer have the benefit of using the HOV with less than 3 people in the car. Now hybrids will be treated just like all other cars. It was nice while it lasted. I just came back from using it on vacation for the last two weeks. My buddy who is a resident that I stayed with told me about the change. I guess we will have to see if all other states that offer that benefit will follow suit.
Resale values for hybrids may be lousy in future years for the following two reasons:
1)Hybrid and Battery technology is at an early stage of development and improvements in the future should be quite substantial. Just look at the improvements of the new Prius vs. the older model.
Such improvements should have a dampening effect on future resale values. Think of the prices of used PCs.
2)As a hybrid ages its battery warranty will soon expire. Replacing a battery for a hybrid can be very costly. This fact alone may curb the enthusiasm for buying used hybrids.
As a hybrid ages its battery warranty will soon expire.
I guess whether 8 years (or ten years, in some states) is "soon" is a matter of opinion. Since I've never owned any car more than 8 years, 8 years is a loooong time for me.
"You don't cross shop cars that perform that differently, so I'd say they fall into different classes."
Actually I do, so maybe most people would be more appropriate. ; ^ )
I am looking for a fuel efficient 5 passenger car that is reliable and handles well. If two cars meet that criteria, and one happens to be very fast, then so be it. The speed needs to then be weighed against the extra price. In my case a car that goes over 130 mph is fast enough (4 cyl Accord with stick) so I probably won't pay too much more for the extra oomph. I am sure most people would feel they need the extra power though.
I should also add that a wagon format would greatly enhance any vehicle in my eyes, and Honda falls short in that category.
I cross-shop cars all the time. When I bought my Odyssey, I also looked at similar sized SUVs and Crossovers. And right now, I'm cross-shopping the Accord 4 Cylinder with the Accord Hybrid and the small entry level luxury cars. Anything in that price bracket, (between $20,000-$30,000) base price, I'll cross shop with others in the same price range. It doesn't matter if it's a Volvo S40 or an Accord LX. I'll cross-shop both and look at the pros and cons of both cars.
When you cross-shop cars that are in different performance and price classes (e.g. $18,000 Accord 4 cylinder with a $26k+ AH 6 cylinder) it does make it hard to financially justify the higher-priced cars, if the lower-performance cars can meet your needs.
Accord Hybrid offers a fuel-efficient alternative to people who want a powerful sedan that Accord V6 is. In that sense, if Accord Hybrid returns 32 mpg where Accord V6 would, 22 mpg, while adding performance, it would showcase (in production form), another aspect of hybrid technology, and that may be the point!
I do agree, however, that Honda should also offer a four-cylinder based hybrid for those who are looking for “value oriented” versions of the car. But this gives no reason to make direct pricing comparisons between models that offer performance at different levels, as well as the feature content.
I absolutely agree with you . I am basically cross-shopping everything from Prius to Mazda3 to Golf TDI to Acura RSX, Acura TL, Honda Hybrid Civic, Honda EX, Toyota Corolla CE to XRS, Honda 6-speed V6 coupe to even SRT-4 to G35 Coupe.
I would like better mileage. I am very avid manual driver, although I am intrigued by the Prius. But I really don't want to give up perfomance and handling. I am in a cognative dissonace mode.
I look at the Hybrid cost of plus $2500-$4000 dollars; actually more in terms of high mileage cars selling at MSRP and tohers selling at invoice. And it cannot be justified. Price of gas is coming down , but it will probably never go below $1.50 again and if you look out 5 years it will probably be in the $2.50-$3.00 range. However, if you look at real gas savings cost in isn't that much in the big scheme of things; Yes maybe it is $250 per month now and with a very high mileage car you could save half; $125 a month. But there are a lot of other ways you could save $125 a month.
What I like is valid fact, valid opinions and links to new news items. What I don't like are the broken record posters who basically lie about thier cars becuase htey "love" them so much or the ones that put out false infomration, or worse the ones who put out false information and don't realize he/she it doing it, just becuase they have written down a lot of numbers and have their own wed sites and try to portay engineering and scientific concepts without the proper education or understanding.
The biggest problem is that there are a lot of great choices, car manufacturers want to differentiate their car and they is no one perfect solution.
What is the Prius had a bigger battery a bigger eletric motor and had a 6-speed as smooth as the Honda S2000 ? What if it had a fully independent mutlilink suspension with Brembo regenerative brakes, power leather seats, a sunroof. Opps , just a dream!!!
What is the Prius had a bigger battery a bigger eletric motor and had a 6-speed as smooth as the Honda S2000 ?
Ooh, and what if Honda could just switch to manual top (to save weight) and somehow squeeze in the small electric motor from Civic Hybrid in the S2000! Although it would (likely) add nothing to the “peak” power, the addition of about 40 lb.-ft at the low end would be interesting. And then, there should be some “fuel economy” gains as well!
MidCow, if you are cross-shopping such a diverse range of vehicles then I suggest that you haven't defined your buying criteria well enough to make a decision. If you're looking for a car that returns 50 mpg, 0-60 in 7 seconds, and .85 g on the skidpad, you won't be buying a car anytime soon. The AH won't be that car, that is for certain. You may need to decide what is most important to you in order to zero in on a vehicle that you can purchase today, and feel good about buying.
>MidCow, if you are cross-shopping such >a diverse range of vehicles then I suggest >that you haven't defined your buying criteria >well enough to make a decision.
Sad thing is you are right! I am a caraholic and I am not on the road to recovery yet.
YMMV, MidCow also sometimes know as a CAR NUT!
P.S. _ I also like the color "New Formula red" or "Milano Red" and think the Honda Insight 5 -speed w/AC is a pretty neat car. I also like the Dodge SRT-4 in a 5-speed (Flame Red Clearcoat). How is that for diversity
What is the Prius had a bigger battery a bigger eletric motor and had a 6-speed as smooth as the Honda S2000 ? What if it had a fully independent mutlilink suspension with Brembo regenerative brakes, power leather seats, a sunroof. Opps , just a dream!!!
What if we also added a Mark Levinson stereo system, a shiftronic CVT, a few Lexus badges, set the base price at $24,999 and called it the Lexus HV150? And then we could also squash in a turbocharged version of the gas engine down there and call it the Lexus HV150 SportDesign, with upgraded suspension systems, better brakes, better tires, a spoiler and set the MSRP for that at $29,500? Anyone interested?
could undercut the ES330 in price and serve a growing market: the premium small car market. Just take a look. There's the BMW 1-Series, the Audi A3, the Mercedes Benz C230 SportCoupe and the Saab 9-2X. Shouldn't Lexus join the game, with the Prius? The Corolla might be another way to join, but I think the Prius would draw more sales badged as a Lexus HV150 than a Corolla badged as a Lexus CS180.
Illuminated steering wheel controls are the only change that we know of at this time. Silver Frost Metallic will be the only new color and available on the Hybrid.
2005 Release Dates/Model Matrix August Release - 4cyl & V6 Sedan (Hybrid not applicable) Accord Coupe
LX 5spd or Automatic EX 5spd or Automatic EX w/Leather 5spd or Automatic EX w/Leather and Navigation 5spd or Automatic LX-V6 Automatic EX-V6 w/Leather 6spd or Automatic EX-V6 w/Leather and Navigation 6spd or Automatic - Accord Sedan DX 5spd or Automatic LX 5spd or Automatic EX 5spd or Automatic EX w/Leather 5spd or Automatic EX w/Leather and Navigation 5spd or Automatic LX-V6 Automatic EX-V6 w/Leather Automatic EX-V6 w/Leather and Navigation Automatic - Accord Hybrid na na
2006 Honda Accord Line Up
2006 is when you can expect a freshening of both the Coupe and Sedan. Bumpers, grilles, trunks, hoods, headlights, taillights, interior fabrics, alloy wheels or any combination of these will be changed slightly to give the Accord an updated look.
Torrance, Calif. 06/28/2004 -- American Honda released the first images of its 2005 Accord V6 Hybrid, a gas-electric hybrid version of Honda's best-selling car, scheduled to go on-sale at Honda dealerships nationwide later this year. Utilizing a next-generation hybrid powertrain, the Accord V6 Hybrid will deliver power and performance above the current 240-horsepower Accord V6 with the fuel economy of a compact-class, four-cylinder Civic sedan...
...With class-leading performance and fuel efficiency provided by a highly advanced and super-efficient hybrid V6 powertrain, the Accord Hybrid will produce in excess of 240 horsepower with near-peak torque available across the engine's full operating range for exhilarating performance with superb acceleration, passing power and cruising comfort."
Wish they'd given it a little face-lift, it still looks like it melted slightly.
After reading the text it sounds a lot like the HCH, what's next generation about it? It still only shuts the engine off when the vehicle is stopped, so the Prius still seems more advanced.
You could wait until 2006 if you want to see a facelift. Plus the initial frenzy will wane, they will be able to start adjusting production to whatever demand there is, there will be time to find and start fixing problems, parts warehouses will know what parts to keep in stock (to reduce backorder waits) and the dealer techs will have more experience troubleshooting problems. Waiting until 2006 makes sense.
has larger pics and more data. tails are new...not great looking to me. I wouldn't want to be stuck with a deck lid spoiler. the wheels....no thanks. they'd have to go.
First, it states it will have 255bhp Second, EPA city/highway numbers are expected to be 32/38 Third, it is expected to cost about $3K more than a Accord EXV6.
quote-The Accord hybrid is to go on sale in November or December for about $30,000 — roughly $3,000 more than a top-end Accord EX gas car -end
Here is another hybrid that is overpriced. For $30,000 I'll buy a Passat TDI if I want fuel efficiency or better yet buy a Accord EX 4cyl for $21,000 and use the extra $9000 for fuel. Accord hybrid sounded like a winner until the price was announced. There will likely be no shortage of buyers even at $30,000, Honda won't miss me;)
$3k more than an Accord V6 is about what people expected.
The Ford Escape hybrid, on the other hand, costs $3 grand more than the V6 model even though it only comes with the 2.3l four cylinder, so there was a bit of sticker shock with many shoppers.
Accord hybrid will annihilate the EX-4 in acceleration, no comparison. It might effectively challenge the Acura TL. Look upmarket, not down.
I'm surprised in the photos that the car does not have a sunroof. Since this is standard on the EX models I thought for sure it would be standard on the hybrid. I wonder if it is even an option.
Comments
Exactly.
But remember, TCO involves resale value, and that may be better.
Look at it this way, if the hybrid costs $3000 more, but you get a $1500 tax credit (in MD, stay with me), you only paid $1500 more.
Then, say you sell it in 4 years. Resale value will likely be about that much higher ($1500 or so), so you'll recover your invesment.
So in that case the hybrid was "free".
Caveat - good point about the invoice pricing on the non-hybrids. In fact the cost may be a lot more than $3000, so do your own math to figure if you think it's worth it.
-juice
I am in favor of hybrids though. The more that are sold the cheaper they will get.
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kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I have averaged about 1250 miles/month over last seven years in my Accord. Assuming gas at $1.90/gallon and EPA estimate (21 mpg) as valid real life mileage (city) for EXV6, and “Civic-like” 30 mpg for Accord Hybrid would account for $450/year in savings on fuel ($3K in 81 months). This, while driving a more powerful, and potentially better-equipped version with cleaner emissions.
OTOH, one may never be able to recuperate the extra $3K one spent to get EXV6 over EX, or $6K over LX. But then, getting the more powerful version wasn’t meant to for recuperation in terms of dollars.
It may cost more than $3000 more when you compare real-world selling prices of the gas vs hybrid Accords plus the potential of added depreciation when today's high pricing doesn't hold up at resale time. Think of the people who bought the first, hot PT Cruisers who are trying to sell them today.
Just comparing MSRP is useless when you can get the gas models for around invoice.
Really? Check on E-bay how much current and last generation Prius are selling.
Dennis
1)Hybrid and Battery technology is at an early stage of development and improvements in the future should be quite substantial. Just look at the improvements of the new Prius vs. the older model.
Such improvements should have a dampening effect on future resale values. Think of the prices of used PCs.
2)As a hybrid ages its battery warranty will soon expire. Replacing a battery for a hybrid can be very costly. This fact alone may curb the enthusiasm for buying used hybrids.
I guess whether 8 years (or ten years, in some states) is "soon" is a matter of opinion. Since I've never owned any car more than 8 years, 8 years is a loooong time for me.
You don't cross shop cars that perform that differently, so I'd say they fall into different classes.
With an 8/100 warranty, I don't see how battery concerns will hurt resale for most folks. Lease prices may be high because they command full MSRP!
-juice
I think they're being safe and forecasting that hybrids won't be the novelty hot ticket item that they are today.
-juice
Actually I do, so maybe most people would be more appropriate. ; ^ )
I am looking for a fuel efficient 5 passenger car that is reliable and handles well. If two cars meet that criteria, and one happens to be very fast, then so be it. The speed needs to then be weighed against the extra price. In my case a car that goes over 130 mph is fast enough (4 cyl Accord with stick) so I probably won't pay too much more for the extra oomph. I am sure most people would feel they need the extra power though.
I should also add that a wagon format would greatly enhance any vehicle in my eyes, and Honda falls short in that category.
I do agree, however, that Honda should also offer a four-cylinder based hybrid for those who are looking for “value oriented” versions of the car. But this gives no reason to make direct pricing comparisons between models that offer performance at different levels, as well as the feature content.
I absolutely agree with you . I am basically cross-shopping everything from Prius to Mazda3 to Golf TDI to Acura RSX, Acura TL, Honda Hybrid Civic, Honda EX, Toyota Corolla CE to XRS, Honda 6-speed V6 coupe to even SRT-4 to G35 Coupe.
I would like better mileage. I am very avid manual driver, although I am intrigued by the Prius. But I really don't want to give up perfomance and handling. I am in a cognative dissonace mode.
I look at the Hybrid cost of plus $2500-$4000 dollars; actually more in terms of high mileage cars selling at MSRP and tohers selling at invoice. And it cannot be justified. Price of gas is coming down , but it will probably never go below $1.50 again and if you look out 5 years it will probably be in the $2.50-$3.00 range. However, if you look at real gas savings cost in isn't that much in the big scheme of things; Yes maybe it is $250 per month now and with a very high mileage car you could save half; $125 a month. But there are a lot of other ways you could save $125 a month.
What I like is valid fact, valid opinions and links to new news items. What I don't like are the broken record posters who basically lie about thier cars becuase htey "love" them so much or the ones that put out false infomration, or worse the ones who put out false information and don't realize he/she it doing it, just becuase they have written down a lot of numbers and have their own wed sites and try to portay engineering and scientific concepts without the proper education or understanding.
The biggest problem is that there are a lot of great choices, car manufacturers want to differentiate their car and they is no one perfect solution.
What is the Prius had a bigger battery a bigger eletric motor and had a 6-speed as smooth as the Honda S2000 ? What if it had a fully independent mutlilink suspension with Brembo regenerative brakes, power leather seats, a sunroof. Opps , just a dream!!!
What reference do you have to your statement:
"The resale of the Prius is poor"
Look on eBay or in your local paper.
YMMV,
MidCow
Ooh, and what if Honda could just switch to manual top (to save weight) and somehow squeeze in the small electric motor from Civic Hybrid in the S2000! Although it would (likely) add nothing to the “peak” power, the addition of about 40 lb.-ft at the low end would be interesting. And then, there should be some “fuel economy” gains as well!
Civic EX: 51%/37%
Civic LX: 50%/36%
Civic Hybrid: 49%/36%
Hardly any (meaningful) difference. HCH is about as good as the other popular trims of Civics.
>a diverse range of vehicles then I suggest
>that you haven't defined your buying criteria
>well enough to make a decision.
Sad thing is you are right! I am a caraholic and I am not on the road to recovery yet.
YMMV,
MidCow also sometimes know as a CAR NUT!
P.S. _ I also like the color "New Formula red" or "Milano Red" and think the Honda Insight 5 -speed w/AC is a pretty neat car. I also like the Dodge SRT-4 in a 5-speed (Flame Red Clearcoat). How is that for diversity
Highlander hybrid seems close.
We're pretty crazy with the cross-shopping, too. We drove a Camry, a Rendezvous, a Sedona, and bought a Legacy wagon!
I drove a Prius later, it wasn't out back then. I'll sample an Accord hybrid mostly out of curiosity, I too need a wagon for my uses.
-juice
What if we also added a Mark Levinson stereo system, a shiftronic CVT, a few Lexus badges, set the base price at $24,999 and called it the Lexus HV150? And then we could also squash in a turbocharged version of the gas engine down there and call it the Lexus HV150 SportDesign, with upgraded suspension systems, better brakes, better tires, a spoiler and set the MSRP for that at $29,500? Anyone interested?
RX330 has wait lists at my local dealer.
-juice
- 06/21/04
Illuminated steering wheel controls are the only change that we know of at this time. Silver Frost Metallic will be the only new color and available on the Hybrid.
2005 Release Dates/Model Matrix
August Release - 4cyl & V6 Sedan (Hybrid not applicable)
Accord Coupe
LX 5spd or Automatic
EX 5spd or Automatic
EX w/Leather 5spd or Automatic
EX w/Leather and Navigation 5spd or Automatic
LX-V6 Automatic
EX-V6 w/Leather 6spd or Automatic
EX-V6 w/Leather and Navigation 6spd or Automatic
-
Accord Sedan
DX 5spd or Automatic
LX 5spd or Automatic
EX 5spd or Automatic
EX w/Leather 5spd or Automatic
EX w/Leather and Navigation 5spd or Automatic
LX-V6 Automatic
EX-V6 w/Leather Automatic
EX-V6 w/Leather and Navigation Automatic
-
Accord Hybrid
na na
2006 Honda Accord Line Up
2006 is when you can expect a freshening of both the Coupe and Sedan. Bumpers, grilles, trunks, hoods, headlights, taillights, interior fabrics, alloy wheels or any combination of these will be changed slightly to give the Accord an updated look.
Front
Rear
Torrance, Calif. 06/28/2004 -- American Honda released the first images of its 2005 Accord V6 Hybrid, a gas-electric hybrid version of Honda's best-selling car, scheduled to go on-sale at Honda dealerships nationwide later this year. Utilizing a next-generation hybrid powertrain, the Accord V6 Hybrid will deliver power and performance above the current 240-horsepower Accord V6 with the fuel economy of a compact-class, four-cylinder Civic sedan...
...With class-leading performance and fuel efficiency provided by a highly advanced and super-efficient hybrid V6 powertrain, the Accord Hybrid will produce in excess of 240 horsepower with near-peak torque available across the engine's full operating range for exhilarating performance with superb acceleration, passing power and cruising comfort."
The Full Story Here
After reading the text it sounds a lot like the HCH, what's next generation about it? It still only shuts the engine off when the vehicle is stopped, so the Prius still seems more advanced.
-jucie
Prius is using a different concept, and that doesn't make it more advanced. Just different. Effectiveness is, however, where the crux lies.
Waiting until 2006 makes sense.
Press is starting to increase. Looks like an excellent offering. A hybrid I could drive!
The photos show red signal lights at the rear while current Accord has clear amber signal lights.
has larger pics and more data. tails are new...not great looking to me. I wouldn't want to be stuck with a deck lid spoiler. the wheels....no thanks. they'd have to go.
First, it states it will have 255bhp
Second, EPA city/highway numbers are expected to be 32/38
Third, it is expected to cost about $3K more than a Accord EXV6.
Here is another hybrid that is overpriced. For $30,000 I'll buy a Passat TDI if I want fuel efficiency or better yet buy a Accord EX 4cyl for $21,000 and use the extra $9000 for fuel.
Accord hybrid sounded like a winner until the price was announced. There will likely be no shortage of buyers even at $30,000, Honda won't miss me;)
The Ford Escape hybrid, on the other hand, costs $3 grand more than the V6 model even though it only comes with the 2.3l four cylinder, so there was a bit of sticker shock with many shoppers.
Accord hybrid will annihilate the EX-4 in acceleration, no comparison. It might effectively challenge the Acura TL. Look upmarket, not down.
-juice
Maybe the market will be more reasonable.
-juice