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Comments
I guess you missed my sarcasm.
"You didn't answer my RX400h/Highlander vs HAH question"
SUVs have larger frontal area to push out more air than a mid-size sedan Accord. The tires are also wider which in turn, give higher rolling resistance.
"If Prius can output 250hp, then it would compare better with HAH."
I don't think you are aware of an assumption you made. You are assuming that HSD and IMA peak power rating and responsiveness translate equally to the real world output.
Because HSD design allows more electric motor to put into use, ICE displacement can be lower than Honda IMA design. I've posted estimates for Camry hybrid to be competitive with Accord at "Camry Hybrid vs. Accord Hybrid" board. Since it is out of topic, I'll just point you to that board.
"Well, it seems like you have tried it(VCM) or know that for a fact. Could you elaborate more on how you reach that conclusion? I certainly would like to know more about it since most people here haven't."
No, I have not tried it. All I know is from the discussions with Robertmx and 3-D computer modeled videos of VCM ICE in action. It is just a simple question. When HAH 3.0L V6 engine deactivates 3 cylinders, it'll run on the remaining 3 cylinders(1.5L) right? In theory, you should get better mileage than 2.4L 4 cylinder Accord, right? Well, 2.4L Accord gets 34 MPG on highway without IMA support. In practice, things don't add up.
"Save gas in cruising w/o hurting performance when you need it. It seems like a great concept. Why don't you think it work?"
The reason is that when VCM "deactivate" 3 cylinders, it stops injecting fuel and air into those 3 cylinders. All six cylinders remain reciprocating. Three "active" combustion cylinders needs to keep all six cylinders reciprocating, minimizing fuel saving, if any. I am sure you know now that Atkinson cycle attacks the root of the ICE inefficiency by reducing pumping loss, increasing expension-compression ratio, etc.. instead of the fix up band-aid.
"Well Prius is being bashed for performance because it does not have it."
It doesn't. Prius drives like most other Toyota traditional cars except, it has better passing power at mid-range speed, which I need most of the time.
"Performance wise, it cannot touch HAH with improved mpg. That is very sure to me unless you can prove me wrong."
I am not here to prove anyone wrong or to prove myself right. Honda IMA is a big improvement and a great step forward from traditional car design. I also support other hybrids from Ford as well(except GM's pseudo hybrid). Everyone has their own beliefs. I believe that Nissan Altima Hybrid or Toyota Camry Hybrid will be superior than Honda Accord Hybrid. I am not asking you to narrow down your support to just one hybrid design. As long as we share the same vision and belief system, we'll synegize smoothly, the same way I do with others who believe in HSD.
Dennis
No, I have not tried it. All I know is from the discussions with Robertmx and 3-D computer modeled videos of VCM ICE in action. It is just a simple question. When HAH 3.0L V6 engine deactivates 3 cylinders, it'll run on the remaining 3 cylinders(1.5L) right? In theory, you should get better mileage than 2.4L 4 cylinder Accord, right? Well, 2.4L Accord gets 34 MPG on highway without IMA support. In practice, things don't add up.
___And if Toyota can figure out how to deactivate 2 cylinders of the Prius 1.5 L ICE, it should get 100 mpg on the highway! Maybe 86 mpg for the Echo! Maybe 76 mpg for the Corolla w/ Auto? After all it’s only a matter of valve timing and cylinder shut off capability. Why doesn’t that add up? Because VCM supposedly only adds about 15% improvement in fuel economy, not anything near 100% as you apparently would expect? Yes, sarcasm at its finest. Create whatever ill conceived thoughts on efficiency you may, the Prius II’s underpowered ICE with medium performance capability pack is what gives her the fuel efficiency she is capable of and in turn, it’s lowly performance in comparison to the Echo, Corolla, and Camry w/ Auto’s and especially when/if they are equipped with a stick. Fortunately, the Prius II has enough performance to meet the necessities of most of today’s US drivers but it hasn’t yet begun to enter the performance realm of the HAH. It is not even close!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
with all the improvements and hoopla surrounding the prius, it still has the characteristics of an economy car. it's just not priced like one. the HAH will most likely drive like a regular V6 accord.
mid range passing power for the prius may be better than the corolla, but it's modest compared to the i4 camry.
I guess you don't understand underlying concept of Atkinson cycle engine design and benefits. It is a much better solution than disabling cylinders.
"Because VCM supposedly only adds about 15% improvement in fuel economy, not anything near 100% as you apparently would expect?"
From the concept of VCM, one would expect fuel economy better than a 4 cylinder Accord. If VCM improves highway MPG by 15% then, would HAH without VCM would still get 32 MPG? I guess IMA on highway only improves 2MPG over Accord V6.
If VCM gain 15% fuel economy in the city, HAH without VCM should get 27 MPG. That's 7 MPG gain(26%) over Accord V6. On average, it seems like VCM improve 15% and IMA improve 13% toward HAH total gained efficiency. It doesn't sound right to me.
" it’s(Prius) lowly performance in comparison to the Echo, Corolla, and Camry w/ Auto’s and especially when/if they are equipped with a stick."
I guess you implied that most people do 0-60 in most of their driven mileage because you measure a car's performance by just that one test. To me, I use more passing power at mid-range. Most highway merge occur at mid-range speed, not from standing still.
HAH will be a great performing car, I am sure. What bothers me a bit though is how Honda America PR did not even mention SULEV of HAH. I can understand because they are marketing toward performance but ignoring hybrid's low emission would turn off some people.
Dennis
From 30-50mph, Prius is about 1 second faster than Camry 2.4L 4 cylinders. Camry would catch up later, I am sure. No doubt, HAH will be much faster than both. The point is how Prius' peak 110hp can beat Camry's peak 160hp at mid-range and the potential of HSD. Imagine how Camry hybrid will perform at mid-range.
Dennis
I’m waiting for Toyota to use Atkinson-Miller cycle design in its mainstream engines. Why not? Mazda tried to use it on Millenia, so, what happened? If you’re trying to prove Toyota’s route as the “perfect” way, think again.
What bothers me a bit though is how Honda America PR did not even mention SULEV of HAH. I can understand because they are marketing toward performance but ignoring hybrid's low emission would turn off some people.
I’ve always regarded Honda as a greener company than Toyota. First to have LEV, first to have ULEV, first to have SULEV, first to have PZEV/AT-PZEV. Don’t be bothered by just not hearing about it, it WILL be at least SULEV rated, or may be, AT-PZEV rated. Honda typically restrains from making too much noise about its products a little too early.
Imagine how Camry hybrid will perform at mid-range.
Let us imagine HAH at the moment. We’ve beaten Prius to death, and still continue to.
Has anyone heard any actual figures on the HAH and how much the VCM will save on the highway ? 10% , 15%
Does anyone know if Honda plans to implement VCM on all V6s not just the HAH.
HAH, - performance, handling and excellent mileage? No other hybrid can come close !!
YMMV,
MidCow
Really?
Has Honda's philosophy changed? ULEV hybrids is there preference currently.
> First to have
First doesn't mean much, especially when the competion achieved the same thing just weeks later and/or when stock is limited to just a specific region.
JOHN
What are you pretending not to know? We've discussed this before. Atkinson cycle is a very good(if not perfect) ICE solution for full gas-electric hybrids. You will find Atkinson cycle ICE in full hybrids such as Ford Escape Hybrid, Nissan Altima Hybrid, and all Toyota hybrids. Mild hybrids with Honda IMA and GM hybrids use Otto cycle ICE and now, HAH will have VCM on Otto cycle ICE.
Why doesn't Honda use Atkinson cycle in their mild hybrids? Maybe their single electric motor and smaller(compare to HSD) battery do not have enough power to supply enough low-end torque, which Atkinson cycle lacks. Maybe Toyota patented the use of Atkinson cycle with electric supercharger. Maybe that's why Ford and Nissan license some or most of Toyota's technology. I am not here to bash Honda, just analyzing the whole situation.
The difference between Miller cycle and atkinson cycle is that James Miller used Atkinson cycle ICE and added traditional supercharger to be applicable for ICE-only car. Hybrids use Atkinson cycle ICE with high low-speed torque electric supercharger. Miller cycle failed due to added cost and complexity but full hybrids actually simplified the whole car mechanically, removing redundant parts and benefits outweighing by far. In simple terms:
Miller cycle = Atkinson cycle ICE + Traditional supercharger
Full Hybrids = Atkinson cycle ICE + High torque electric motors(supercharger)
Note: Electric motors are crucial integral part to start/stop the ICE, to be part of E-CVT, to regen brake, to act as replacement alternator, to supercharge, and to drive the car!
Atkinson cycle is a very good ICE solution for full hybrids. HSD had won many awards and still continue to receive more to back that up!
Dennis
Really?
May I ask why you raised your eyebrows?
Has Honda's philosophy changed? ULEV hybrids is there preference currently.
Really? You think so?
“Honda's Civic Hybrid becomes the first-ever hybrid vehicle to be certified as an AT-PZEV by the California's Air Resources Board (CARB).”
So, where did you learn about Honda’s philosophy pertaining to hybrids?
> First to have
First doesn't mean much, especially when the competion achieved the same thing just weeks later and/or when stock is limited to just a specific region.
That’s strange! Wouldn’t “being first” indicate some kind of commitment? Or is this how things must be seen if it is not Toyota?
Back to HAH. I found this amusing (from an article on HAH published in USA Today)
“It's unfortunate' that Honda will be first with the high-performance hybrid pitch, says Lexus spokesman Brad Nelson, 'but it's not going to change our approach and our message."
Perhaps, another first. ;-)
I couldn’t answer why Honda doesn’t (or does) do things. I can only guess. Just so that you know, Honda has been developing AC synchronous motor since 1989 and has used it in Honda EV-Plus (electric vehicle). Currently, the 80 HP version of the electric motor powers the Honda FCX (fuel cell vehicle).
However, for hybrid development, the engineers turned their focus to developing smaller brushless DC motors, sometimes using two or three of them (in prototypes). Perhaps, there are benefits to taking that extra step instead of looking back at the parts bin for an available motor.
But, “why” may actually have a simpler answer. If regular engines are compatible with the hybrid set up, why not? Especially true if the weight of the electric motor is compensated for by reduction of weight of the flywheel! And significant portion of added weight comes only from the batteries (in Civic Hybrid, about 60 lb.).
In the end, it is the results that matter, right? And then, there are people like me who favor a conventional feel. After all, I love driving.
This cracks me up. When the present isn't looking good, talk about the past. Toyota had the first hybrid sports car(S800) since 1977.
"However, for hybrid development, the engineers turned their focus to developing smaller brushless DC motors,..."
Electric motor that is in Prius is also compact high efficient DC brushless motor BUT it runs of AC electricity. The best of both worlds. What about HCH or HAH? Do they use any Inverter to achieve what had been done possible with HSD?
"If regular engines are compatible with the hybrid set up, why not?"
Because "regular" engines were optimized for single power source, whereas, in hybrids, ICE is only half of the equation. That half must be properly optimized to get the most benefits. Most importantly, the ICE half better not have the same advantages as the electric half because overlapping feature could be a waste.
"Especially true if the weight of the electric motor is compensated for by reduction of weight of the flywheel!"
Why even need the flywheel? HSD's MG1 and PSD completely eliminated the need for the flywheel. Again, in HSD, you'll see the same parts doing multiple jobs, which is why HSD is mechanically simpler!
"And then, there are people like me who favor a conventional feel. After all, I love driving. "
You mean controlling the car with more senses involved. People can still control the car with just one foot and one hand, as well or even better. What you are saying is that, you'll hate to give up the use of more senses while driving.
Dennis
That's easy, it's based on ACTUAL offerings.
Token gestures, like SULEV only being available in certain locations, don't mean much. When it is available nationwide (in other words, consumers actually get to make the choice themselves), then they get the credit.
Remember, Honda originally said they would offer the SULEV version of HCH nationwide. Then upon the release, they changed their mind.
In other words, tell us when you find them available nationwide. Then we'll celebrate, big time!
JOHN
Well, how does this pertain (in any way) to the subject you brought up?
Electric motor that is in Prius is also compact high efficient DC brushless motor BUT it runs of AC electricity. The best of both worlds.
And I thought perfection wasn’t possible!
Because "regular" engines were optimized for single power source, whereas, in hybrids, ICE is only half of the equation.
And once again you didn’t get the point. Atkinson cycle has its pros and cons, and it ain’t patented by Toyota, so Honda (or anybody) could use it as well. However, I would not dare to challenge the choices Honda’s (or Toyota’s) engineers make. Choices come with compromises. What makes you do it?
As far as I see it Honda adds VCM to Otto cycle engine used in its mainstream offerings with or without hybrid technology. Toyota designs engine based on Atkinson cycle for use in hybrids. Which is a better approach? I don’t know, because like I said earlier, it is the results that matter.
If an automaker comes up with a design that delivers all the efficiencies of hybrids from a gasoline (or diesel) motor, would that count in our “end-result comparison”? Yeah!
Bottom line: Things work, even if it isn’t “Toyota Way”.
Why even need the flywheel? HSD's MG1 and PSD completely eliminated the need for the flywheel.
Flywheel is part of ICE, with electric motor bolted as part of fly wheel, it is possible (and has been done) to reduce the mass of flywheel by a mass equivalent to that of the electric motor. It may be possible to even eliminate the flywheel! Would that help. And then, there is no MG1 and PSD et al either, which also limit options for people like me. I’m hoping Honda doesn’t offer CVT with HAH, instead, a choice of 5-sp auto, manual, or even semi-automatic (if it were possible).
You mean controlling the car with more senses involved.
Toyotas, since the mid-90s, have failed in that regard. Prius is among the worst offender in that area. Hey, if you’re offering a car in the mid-20s, at least make it handle like one.
So HCH AT-PZEV isn’t an actual offering?
Token gestures, like SULEV only being available in certain locations, don't mean much
To illustrate token gestures, think hybrid vehicle thrown in alongside Gas Guzzlers.
Selling a few thousand of over a million vehicles sold as SULEV is a token gesture as well. But this doesn’t address how you concluded that Honda’s philosophy was ULEV. So, why would Honda beat Toyota to the punch in offering ZEV (Civic GX), PZEV (Accord) and AT-PZEV (Civic Hybrid)?
And speaking of token gestures, it would be nice to compile a list with percentage of ULEV or better vehicles sold by each automaker. Where do you think Honda will be?
Honda originally said they would offer the SULEV version of HCH nationwide. Then upon the release, they changed their mind.
That doesn’t mean they have a “ULEV philosophy”, does it? If they weren’t offering SULEV/PZEV anywhere, I would have to agree with you. BTW, isn’t Prius also offered as SULEV in western and north eastern states (just like Civic Hybrid)? If it is, than what is this fuss about nationwide offering?
Being able to purchase the SULEV/PZEV at your near-by dealer is a very big deal, something that can't just be dismissed like you are attempting.
> why would Honda beat Toyota to the punch in offering... AT-PZEV (Civic Hybrid)?
That's easy: timing!
Toyota had no desire to certify the classic Prius for AT-PZEV, so they just waited a little bit and certified the new one instead. Remember, that version of HCH was a mid-year release, so it's timing wasn't part of the regular model-year cycle.
Again, what benefit is "first" if it still isn't available locally anyway?
I'm willing to wait for the next year's offering before drawing a conclusion, if you will drop the "first" debate... or should I point out that Prius is the world's first hybrid to reach the 250,000 units produced mark?
JOHN
I’m attempting to figure out where you dug up Honda’s philosophy on sticking with ULEV. After that, we can discuss why NOBODY is offering all cars (even within same model) with PZEVrating, nationwide.
That's easy: timing!
Timing is everything. Isn’t it? Especially when we talk about “firsts”. Even the Lexus spokesperson dealt with it in his/her own way. :-)
Toyota had no desire to certify the classic Prius for AT-PZEV, so they just waited a little bit and certified the new one instead.
And Honda had the desire to? Does that bode well with your claim on Honda’s philosophy about ULEV?
What philosophy?
I simply pointed out that they changed their mind about offering the cleaner HCH nationwide. That is not a subject of debate. It is a fact. It already happened.
JOHN
I simply pointed out that they changed their mind about offering the cleaner HCH nationwide.
This one...
"Really? Has Honda's philosophy changed? ULEV hybrids is there preference currently."
I assumed you knew better than most here about Honda's philosophy. I can understand your point about Honda (or ANYBODY, including Toyota) for not offering SULEV (or better) nationwide but that doesn't define philosophy as you made it out to be.
BTW, nobody “prefers” the most expensive route. Or so I believe, when it comes to doing business.
So, you still think HAH won't be offered as SULEV or better?
"I can understand your point about Honda (or ANYBODY, including Toyota) for not offering SULEV (or better) nationwide "
Both Toyota & Ford have PZEV available nationwide already. Ford has a version of Focus and Toyota has Prius (2004 is AT-PZEV and 2001-2003 were SULEV). That's why I was surprised when Honda changed their mind about competing.
No big deal. We'll just wait to see what 2005 brings.
JOHN
You tell me! The same way you related Honda's past to their current offering.
"And I thought perfection wasn’t possible!"
Who is claiming what is perfect?
"And once again you didn’t get the point. Atkinson cycle has its pros and cons, and it ain’t patented by Toyota"
I am afraid you are not getting the point. Most of the Atkinson cycle's cons were negated by the electric motor! Therefore, the cons are almost non-existence for a hybrid application.
I am sure it was patented by Mr.Atkinson but it should be long expired. But that's not what I am talking about though. I am talking about the usage of Atkinson ICE WITH electric motors(supercharger).
"Which is a better approach? I don’t know, because like I said earlier, it is the results that matter."
Yup I agree, it is the results that matter. It is up to everyone to choose what is the best for them. The reviews and awards are out there overwhelming favoring one design. Also noted as the leader in hybrid technology.
"Bottom line: Things work, even if it isn’t “Toyota Way”."
Absolutely! It is not Honda's way, nor GM's nor Ford's way. Toyota only have about 10%(?) of the market and is aiming to increase to 15% by 2010.
Dennis
That said, fueleconomy.org website shows SULEV-II rating available only in western states/New England for Prius.
That said, let us move on with Accord Hybrid. A little too much enthusiasm has been dealt with regarding Prius.
So the OB PZEV would make a good green alternative to an SUV.
Where is the current Accord categorized? ULEV? SULEV? What about the new hybrid?
-juice
You make me go back and figure out what the heck we’re discussing here. It started out with mild versus “Toyota” hybrid setup, and Honda not using more powerful electric motors, and now we’re supposed to discuss what Toyota hybrid was available in 1977. The sole point of my bringing up Honda AC synchronous motor was to demonstrate that it exists and is being used, but for some engineers looked at developing a different kind of motor for hybrid technology. What the heck are you talking about now?
Who is claiming what is perfect?
Are YOU telling me HSD isn’t perfect? :-)
-juice
Talking about what you talk about, HAH which is the whole point of this board. Is 32/38 mpg official figures? Looks like Ford Escape Hybrid SVU can beat it!
"Are YOU telling me HSD isn’t perfect? :-)"
YOU thought I thought HSD is perfect? :-D
Dennis
Those Accord better be all V6, which HAH is going to use! 4 cylinder Accords don't count in this discussion. Where can I buy Accord V6 with SULEV?
Dennis
That's because the PZEV label isn't OFFICIALLY recognized (approved) yet in the other states.
Regardless, the vehicle itself is the same no matter where you by it.
For example, to meet the evaporative emission requirement, the easiest method is to put a bladder in the gas tank. So you'll find that difference in HCH based on location. HAH could be the same.
JOHN
http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2004/MERC-Jul-08-Thu-2004/24234945- - .html
Full hybrid with V6 performance gets 39 mpg even on SUV. BTW, it will achieve AT-PZEV clean emission.
Dennis
Funny. Define real world (or "word" as you typed it) please.
That said, what in the world makes you compare Escape Hybrid to Accord Hybrid?
No matter anyway. Low-Sulfur gas isn't as rate as you imply. Besides all of California having it, I'm using it now in Minnesota and there are several areas along the east coast that have it too.
JOHN
Cars are designed, priced and sold on "current needs" not future possibilities. The future possibilities could render “current technology” obsolete.
Not if that is what you want to buy!
Remember, lower emissions is a reason why some people are attracted to hybrids.
The fact that the first few months of ownership *might* be with the dirtier gas really doesn't mean much.
JOHN
People today might be buying hybrids only for emission reasons (and may be mileage too) because there isn't a choice! I'm looking forward to performance versions that would still be cleaner and more fuel efficient than competing vehicles. Accord Hybrid may just be the start of it.
And if emissions was top priority, we might be better served with vehicles like P-ZEV rated Civic GX. Dallas Ft. Worth International airport has a few of them running around.
Accord & Highlander will both outperform (speed, emissions, efficiency) their traditional counterparts. They will be a fantastic boost for the interest in hybrids.
JOHN
I guess I'll have to answer my own question since some people don't want to answer what they don't want to hear. Accord V6 engine does not meet SULEV emission. Only the 4 cylinder version does. Therefore, nobody can by Accord V6 with SULEV, anywhere.
Dennis
It means, it is not lab test number but rather driven outside in real road under many different traffic situation.
"That said, what in the world makes you compare Escape Hybrid to Accord Hybrid?"
To see how IMA is running out of steam. SUVs generally are dirtier than family sedans/coupe, especially from Honda! SUVs are also less fuel efficient. In this case, FEH is proving to be the opposite because it is a full hybrid.
Dennis
Down playing the importance of SULEV+ emission because Accord V6 does not meet SULEV? Then why the heck would Honda certify their 4 cylinder Accord with SULEV when it came out in 2003? Not to mention all the Civics out there as well.
Dennis
FYI, SULEV Accord has been offered in CA since 2000 (or 2001), but only in EX (auto) trim. Whether Honda has extended it to other trims, I don't know (and don't care).
This is a Accord Hybrid thread though. I expect it to be rated better than its V6 counterparts, and very likely, as SULEV (I won't be surprised it getting AT-PZEV either), even with all the performance potential it is supposed to boast.
Why not? HAH is going to use V6 engine, not I4! Therefore, HAH emission should be based on current Accord V6 offering.
"I expect it(HAH) to be rated better than its V6 counterparts, and very likely, as SULEV (I won't be surprised it getting AT-PZEV either)..."
I wouldn't rule out that possibility. I haven't seen V6 Otto cycle ICE achieving SULEV yet. Cleaner Atkinson cycle V6 that will be used in HLH and 400H will be at least SULEV.
What makes you think(very likely) Honda can lower their V6 Otto cycle ICE to SULEV? Are they going to use multiple exhaust filter and aftertreatment like Diesels? Maybe you know something that we don't.
Dennis
A misconception those against the importance of SULEV/PZEV like to spread is that if gas isn't "low" sulfur it must be "high" sulfur, implying it is one extreme or the other. In reality, that isn't the case.
Here in Minnesota, one of the brands of gas doesn't meet the "low" requirement maximum of 80ppm. It has 102ppm of sulfur. In other areas of the country, some gas is as dirty as 500ppm. Knowing that, puts things in perspective.
Nationally, all gas will meet the "low" criteria by the end of next year. That means a large portion of the gas used over the lifetime of a 2005 hybrid will be the clean stuff anyway.
JOHN
PZEV Accord is using the 2.4/I-4 that ULEV Accords are using as well. How was that possible? Would it be the first time if Honda offered a non-SULEV engine in a trim and SULEV trim in another?
And please don’t take this discussion back to Otto versus Atkinson. Neither is perfect and you know it. In the end, result counts, doesn’t it?
Basically, you are paying more for the extra 15hp and IMA support during the ICE's weak spots. Oh, and the extra MPG.
Dennis
Dennis