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Both Ford, Nissan buy Toyota's Hybrid System!
Admitting "If you can't beat 'em, Join 'em!", Ford on March 9th finalized an agreement to use Toyota's Hybrid Technology System for use in future Ford products, joining Nissan, which signed a similar agreement in 2002, as reported by Rueters.
Ford "has not yet completed their hybrid system". Using Toyota's system instead might help.
Nissan will use it first in the 2006 Altima.
Toyota has taken a rather altruistic approach to their advanced emissions and efficiency systems, saying any such advancements should not be held by only one manufacturer.
Interesting.
Question is, if Ford, and Nissan will bow down to Mighty 'Yota, who's next?
DrFill
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Nevertheless, it is still impressive.
M
So then Toyota gave them the technology for free?
The other nice thing about this is there will now be three companies evolving Toyota's hybrid system in their own R&D departments. So we will see some variation in how it is applied to future models. And hopefully Nissan will put more emphasis on sport applications in future.
The thing that puzzles me is that Ford tried so hard for so long to develop their own hybrid system that it delayed the launch of the HEV about two years. And in the end they decided they couldn't? What's going on over at Ford?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
;-)
what this tells me is that ford, after postponing the hybrid escape twice and then signing this deal, decided to
a) cut their investment losses, and
b) stop inventing almost-theres in house
and just freakin' get to market. noises from the "so just what kind of lazy environmentalist are you anyway, Bill" crowd must have gotten to 'em at ford.
SIDENOTE ::= when all the automakers got an antitrust exemption to use GM's pebble-bed catalytic converters in the 70s because nothing else was out there, it cost $3000 per cat. when porous-cell ceramic cats were developed later by others, the cost fell to the $90-100 range per catalytic. it remains to be seen whose hybrid technology will come close in pricing to ICE, but it isn't there yet.
2. Do the other manufacturers have any rights to future developments? Toyota has intimated they wouldn't horde all the new technology themselves. That's what I meant by alruistic. They could easily corner the market, and compete with Honda on how to apply it. They'll make money hand-over-fist either way!
3. Only now, does this mean Ford can released the Hybrid Escape this year? Without it, would they have to swallow their words, again?
4. Or will it take 2-3 years to impliment the new tech? Nissan won't be using in for another two years, and they agreed with 'Yota 18 months ago!
5. Is Toyota trying to have it's cake, and eat it too? They are so far ahead of the other manufacturers, is their plan to dominate the Hybrid market, sell of key (but not complete, or up-to-date) parts of their technology, then SLOWLY dispense the system, ensuring their market position?
DrFill
between taping of your shows, crack open a dictionary, and look up altruism!
;-)
"Under the agreement, Toyota's patents on gasoline-electric hybrid engine system control and emission purification have been licensed for use in Ford's own hybrid system, which is under development."
http://www.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?story- ID=4525684&ric=F.N&infoty
However, this leaves Ford to use its own motor/transmission design, and its own battery pack.
I will bet the HEV will still make it this year. They were almost ready a few months ago, claiming only one final snag, which I guess Toyota's tech sale will solve for them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They could very easily take this market advantage and weild it like a hammer, and further bury struggling makers like Ford. They choose to cut them in, which is nice, and much more benevolent (there goes another big word) than I would ever be.
DrFill
Think of it, Toyota has spent all this money developing hybrid. But the future is also bright for fuel cells (maybe), and even diesel (probably). Hybrid needs the best possible footing Toyota can give it, so that Toyota can recoup its huge initial investment with 20 years of successful hybrid vehicles, and so that hybrid doesn't just flicker and go out at the first hint of new diesel emissions trapping systems or a more marketable fuel cell system.
One way to accomplish this is to license the technology to other manufacturers to use in their own models. Even then, if you notice, Honda and Toyota will probably go down in history as the only two automakers who stuck their necks out so far as to develop and build brand new hybrid models in their line-up. Nissan and Ford, after all, will just develop hybrid powertrains for existing models, and I bet that will be the trend from now on.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota's fear has been that cars might be legislated right out of existence unless ways are found to make them more environmentally friendly (and therefore more palatable to the tree huggers, who tend to wield politcal force far beyond their numbers). Of course, Toyota has also been willing to share their production methods with anyone who will listen as well. They figure that if the car industry is healthy, there's plenty of money for everybody.
It's like the fast-food corridor phenomenon -- by combining at one location, they actually generate more business for ALL of them.
And for those cynics who think Toyota is selling inferior technology to its competitors -- sorry, no. There is no profit or political capital in that. That's a real good way to get a reputation as a con artist, and that's something that doesn't go real well with Toyota's corporate philosphy or self-image.
Toyota has proven that Hybrid tech will make good money NOW, with the Prius being a huge hit, while having a small customer base, strange looks, and no history. Versions in the Highlander/RX400 will be big successes.
They don't NEED Ford or Nissan to make this technology profitable or more attractive. Their motivation is probably just market awareness. The more people that see Hybrid power as the Next Big Thing, the more people will recognize who is creating this market and making it work, and the market share will rise accordingly.
Another theory is that these agreements will slow the development of competitive systems, again giving Toyota a huge advantage with only Honda to compete with, instead of several systems on the market.
DrFill
The sooner Ford and Nissan get hybrids on the road, the sooner Toyota can start a hybrid arms race. I'm sure Toyota is banking on the idea that the hybrids they make will be better than those made by anyone else. Toyota can afford to waste huge sums of money to make certain that happens. Ford and Nissan cannot. Neither can Honda for that matter.
So the sooner there is competition, the sooner Toyota can prove how much better they are. It's a gamble, but a calculated one.
From the view of the other guys, this is an opportunity to get into the race. Which is probably better than doing nothing at all.
Beyond the obvious benefits to enthusiasts, such a system is far more realistic in terms of infrastructure, in that it requires no additional real estate (like commuter trains), and makes no additional noise. I live near South Pasadena, which has been fighting both the extension of the 710 freeway and the Gold Line commuter train. We really have to look at realistic ways to address our transportation needs without giving up the very freedom the automobile provides.
But I think it's great. Spread the costs so you can invest more money in development.
I can't wait to see the more performance oriented hybrids. So far it's all been about economy, they even ride on low rolling resistance tires that handle poorly.
Put that 295 lb-ft of torque at idle to good use!
-juice
-juice
Remember -- electric motors make maximum torque right from 0 RPM on.
I do not have the same doubts about the Prius, given its 50+ fuel economy, larger size, and higher weight.
I heard an interview on the radio tonight with the car editor for the NY Times, whose take on the whole thing is that the domestics are willing to license the technology from Toyota and let it be the hybrid 50-pound gorilla, so that they can turn their R&D energies elsewhere. Perhaps this means they do not see a long or lasting future for hybrids...
She did mention that GM would have hybrids on the road next year though, which I assume means the mild hybrid trucks...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Question is, can they pull it off? They failed with hybrids...
-juice
Toyota will begin selling fuel cell cars (or maybe leasing them?) next year in California - available to private customers no less - and has already signed a deal with the city of San Francisco to lease them a fleet of fuel cell cars, so I think they are also pretty serious about fuel cell technology! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda is a lot smaller so for them it's a big risk, they have to forecast accurately or stand to lose a huge investment (as a % of their total R&D budget).
-juice
About ten years ago, the head of Toyota's US operations was heavily into private jets and helicopters, and even went so far as to offer free flying lessons to all interested employees. Unfortunately, that was a couple of years before I got there, or I'd have my pilot's license now!
Toyota still operates a FBO (Fixed Base Operation) at the Long Beach airport for private jets, and has won many industry awards for its design and services.
-juice
I'm sure the bean counters did the math and made their choice accordingly.
-juice
Coincidence? I think not. :-)
(They say that now that the initial cost is amortized for the Excursion, it is a very high-profit vehicle for them, so why not continue it...despite being "low sales" for Ford, it still sells better than most sport coupe models currently on the market. Gotta love the U.S. of A!)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And my last post was half in jest. :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Like they need yet another huge SUV, sheesh.
-juice
An even more amazing phenomenon is the sales of 2WD SUVs.
-juice
Would I buy either? No way.
Small and midsize "utes" that are really crossovers will be the bulk of the sales in five years, I am sure, after Ford has changed the Explorer to a unibody based on the 500 platform.
So it is good that Ford is buying the hybrid tech to use in that type of vehicle, with the HEV. So much easier, then, to modify it later on for use in the '09 Explorer Hybrid, 38 mpg city!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In other markets they sell a smaller SUV called the EcoSport, it's very popular in Brazil, for instance. I think that one is Focus based, but I could be wrong.
They're also developing the Ford Freestyle crossover, to compete with the Pacifica I guess.
So they're coming around, a little late to the game, though.
-juice
I mean, Honda is the smallest of the major manufacturers, but they have three distinct car-based SUVs in their line. Toyota is about the same size as Ford and has two. Both these imports have had cross-overs in their luxury lines for quite some time, as well. BMW has two.
Ford has one. (Even Porsche has one.)
In truth, I think Chrysler is just as slow as Ford. Most of the ones they have in their lines are niche or luxury models. There's nothing in the Dodge or Jeep line-ups. So I guess it would be more accurate to say that they're late in getting into the mass market with them.
Anyway... In proportion to the number of big rigs they sell, it seems odd that they wouldn't be more aggressive in getting into the cross-over arena.
Ford's strategy has been different, in their defense they got their trucks and put indy rear suspensions on those instead of going to full car-based models.
That improved the ride but certainly not overall weight, and fuel efficiency isn't a strong point.
-juice
GM has two with the VUE and Aztek. They've just added the Equinox. Then they have the RDV in the near-lux and the SRX for the upper lux. Chrysler only has the Pacifica, which is arguably a luxury vehicle.
Badtoy - Yes, I was counting the Element, but the result is still the same without it.
FWIW, I personally think the Element is a van, but most buyers see it as a small SUV and the EPA does classify it as a truck. I don't believe either is true of the Matrix and Vibe.
Not every high-profile vehicle is an SUV. SUVs are intended to be used at least part-time off-road, which is why the RAV4 qualifies and the CRV is somewhat questionable (although it is classified as one).
I read we'll see a Camry hybrid for 2006, also. That'll join the Altima and Accord in the mainstream.
Prius is in hot demand, who will be next?
-juice