Both Ford, Nissan buy Toyota's Hybrid System!

badtoy

on the hybrid craze with the Civic. By making the car invisible, they negated the socio-political cache associated with "going green". Toyota gambled on this one, and won. of course, as soon as all the anticiapated hybrids enter the market, the Prius will cease to be the cause celebre it is now....

Re SUV classifications: I agree. Car makers call their vehicles whatever they think will sell the car. But reality is reality. A truck ain't a truck unless it has frame-on construction and has some real off-road and/or hauling capability. And since the original term SUV was applied to big 4WD trucks like the Explorer and Blazer, it would probably be more accurate to refer to the smaller utility wagons (like the Matrix) as sport wagons. Larger models should be called touring wagons (as they are in Europe) or station wagons.

ateixeira

I bet they can't make enough RX400Hs. Seriously, I bet it'll have huge wait lists.

-juice

badtoy

nice that we can all keep our monsters without getting a black eye for lousy fuel economy.

Of course, those of us who like small cars will still cuss at em!!

jaserb

from the Lexus dealer I bought my Alfa from about the RX400h. If it's as powerful and efficient as they expect it to be it could very well be the next super popular, MSRP+++ vehicle. If that happens you better believe Cadillac, Infiniti, BMW, and Acura will be scrambling to field a competitor - especially if gas hits $3/gal like they keep saying it will.

-Jason

varmint

Badtoy - Okay, we can discount the Element if you like (BTW it does have AWD and the same ride as several others in the class). But there's no doubt that the industry treats it like a cross-over SUV.

But Ford doesn't even have a quazi-van-SUV-hatchback-dog crate-thingy to offer. They (along with Chrysler) are relatively late to the game and reclassifying the Element doesn't change that. Neither would renaming the MDX, RX330, M-Class, X5, and others. That just means that Ford is late to the game offering "touring wagons". Same deal.

varmint

Honda's first hybrid was a poster child for how extreme the hybrid technology could be. The Civic hybrid tried to make it as mainstream as possible.

I agree that many buyers want something in between. I expect that many buyers want the look-at-me factor of the styling and the Civic doesn't deliver. Toyota nailed that balance.

badtoy

You're right, of course. The Element and xB are both concepts derived from the home market (although the Element is a bit large for that). The Detroit3 have stayed away from that concept like the plague -- probably to see if it will take, after which they'll be all over it.

jchan2

will be the next MSRP+++ cars, I think.

Personally the Element looks like a downsized two door Japanese Chevy Astro to me. And the EPA says "If it has available 4WD, AWD, On Demand 4WD, On demand AWD, and an ad campaign that says it's an SUV, then it'll be classified as a truck, as SUVs are direct descendants of trucks"

badtoy

the xB (or Black Box, as it was called in Japan) was modeled after the Chevy Astro, which has been really popular in Japan for a number of years. That's where the xB got its clean good looks!! =D

jchan2

before it came to the states as a Scion. The liftgate seemed kind of flimsy and light, but otherwise the car was pretty good. I didn't sit in the xA (the ist) as it wasn't out when I visited the Toyota museum in Japan.

badtoy

Did you get to sit in the GT1 Le Mans car, or will they not let you do that?

I got to sit in the Dan Gurney GTP car at the Toyota museum in Torrance, as well as a 2000GT. I don't think I could own a 2000GT because I wouldn't be able to drive it -- I hardly fit!!

jchan2

they didn't let me in. I did sit in the Estima hybrid minivan, and it seemed quite spacious to me.

nippononly

"If it's as powerful and efficient as they expect it to be it could very well be the next super popular, MSRP+++ vehicle. If that happens you better believe Cadillac, Infiniti, BMW, and Acura will be scrambling to field a competitor"

I think it inevitable that Honda will bring hybrid availability to the MDX and Pilot lines in short order, just so as not to be outdone by Toyota, which is probably hybridizing Camry for the same reason: to match the Accord. And Nissan will be able to use the hybrid system it has just licensed to bring something similar to the FX and Murano as well (I wonder if it will be compatible with the CVT in the Murano?)

But what will BMW and Cadillac do? I know that GM has the mild hybrid stuff in the works for its big trucks, so maybe they could apply that to the SRX also? But that would probably be at least two years out. And I do not know of anything BMW has going on in this regard....

I hope the HL/RX hybrids DO sell well enough to have wait lists! It is high time this technology made it into vehicles that didn't already start out with 30+ mpg.

ateixeira

RX400H will have massive wait lists, watch.

It's like, feel pampered, and feel good about it. Guilt-free luxury.

-juice

badtoy

And that is the Japanese way -- don't fix blame, fix the problem.

The problem with big SUVs was gas economy. Now that it's solved, no guilt -- you can drive SUVs, performance cars and whatever else without paying Exxon for the privelege, and you can look your kid straight in the eye and tell him you're doing responsible for the environment!

varmint

I just hope they don't price the HL hybrid as high as some of the others. I know they try to justify the price by adding lots of equipment, but I can't afford to pay $40K to replace a CR-V!

badtoy

in the short term, but Toyota's usual method is to eat some profit if necessary in order to introduce the model and capture market share. That's pretty much gospel to them (of course, what individual dealers do is up for grabs).

ateixeira

We have to see if they add the hybrid powertrain to the Limited models only. While that would probably result in the most profit, it would also price a lot of folks out of one (myself as well).

Add it to a base V6 with cloth. I don't need Bluetooth or leather.

-juice

badtoy

How cool can you BE without Bluetooth??

Sheesh...some guys just don't get it!! =D

ateixeira

Guess I don't conduct business while in my Miata. The wind noise would distract my clients any how. ;-)

-juice

badtoy

I get the same complaints in my Paseo -- the thing has a muffler that scares large dogs and small children (not to mention Orange County Republicans)....

ateixeira

I don't mind using an ear piece, I guess. Get one of those phones with voice commands, and just say "Call Home", is that too hard?

But, what do I know, Prius owners love Bluetooth.

Just make stuff like that optional. I hate paying for things I don't want.

-juice

badtoy

doesn't it? "Prius owners love Bluetooth."

Lessee...tree huggers, bunny huggers and hollywood actors.

I'm cool with that....

jchan2

the Highlander Hybrid and RX400H are all about guilt free luxury- be responsible AND be cool.

seminole_kev

still don't see the point (yet) of spending an extra $2000-$4,000 and untold future maintenance cost (battery disposal fees too?) to save $500 worth of gas.

Seems like flying to Germany to save on the price of German beer.....but maybe I'm not the target audience on this one.

badtoy

if you plan on owning the car for more than ten years (that's Toyota's estimate of how long the batteries will last).

And I'm all for a system that delivers good fuel economy in a 2-1/2 ton vehicle, aren't you?

seminole_kev

would you be willing to pay an extra $2,000 to save $500 worth of gas though? Guess I'm just not seeing the *savings* when you're spending more to save less.

badtoy

If you drive 15k a year, the extra 10 mpg (say 45 mpg vs 35 mpg)would save you about $200/year. Multiply that by the number of years you plan to own the car, and you have your savings. In 5 years, you'd have $1000. In ten years (the life of the batteries), you'd have $2000.

But you're right -- there are other choices. Saving some foul-smelling air is a nice thing too, though, and TDIs just don't sell in this country -- not yet, anyway.

Of course, you're only talking about hybrids for gas economy. The other use is for performance, and that's where the trucks come in.

Toyota has always considered hybrids a stop-gap measure. They've had electric cars for years, but consider them impractical and basically unsellable. They continue to work on fuel cells, which will probably be the end-all when they finally have them developed to an economical point.

Oh yeah -- one more nice thing about hybrids is the lack of noise. I mean, they are QUIET.

seminole_kev

you take away my engine and exhaust noise, and I'm just going to quit driving! ;-) Don't need to wake the neighbors or anything like the kids with their civic's, but something like the sounds a nicely tuned BMW 3 or 5 series makes would be nice.

badtoy

I rode with a buddy for awhile who had a Prius, and it was really nice on these crowded freeways -- very serene. Sometimes I do like my wife's LS400 -- just not always! The Prius is a commuter car, pure and simple -- nothing wrong with that.

seminole_kev

certainly true. While I may not like some cars (re: the celica in another topic) I appreciate the diversity and choices we have. While some cars turn me off, I'm still glad they're made. I figure if it makes someone else happy, than I'm glad it rolled off the factory line. Plus, variety is the spice of life as they say.

(Doesn't stop me from complaining about some of them like an old man though ;-)

ateixeira

kev: you gotta think about the other perks. It's not just the cost of gas. Consider these:

* increased range
* HOV lane access (in the state of VA at least)
* some states waive sales tax (MD)
* peak torque at 0 rpm
* improved acceleration
* ultra-luxurious quietness at low speeds
* guilt-free

Seriously, your Lexus LS430 will seem positively rude next to your completely silent RX400H at idle.

Toyota's battery has an 8/100 warranty, that's longer than most people will keep their cars.

The bottom line is hybrids are a niche vehicle; they're not for everyone. They may not fit your particular needs, but and that's perfectly fine. They're only aiming for 10% market share and that's over the next several years.

The other 90%, including you, will get your exhaust noise elsewhere, and that's cool.

-juice

seminole_kev

maybe I'll just drive a hybrid and eat a lot of beans before hand.....

ateixeira

How about an in-car system to re-capture those emissions and maybe even use that energy? ;-)

-juice

varmint

Maybe the hybrids should have a recording of the exhuast note playing out a speaker in the back.

wimsey1

Thank you soooooo much for sharing!
Hmmmmm...I suppose this creates the possiblity of a triple system hybrid-gas, electric & ...well, um...gas! Why not add a solar panel to the roof for a grand slam. :-D

ateixeira

Good idea, varmint. They could even use dolby digital surround sound to make it sound like a side exhaust, like the Cobra. ;-)

We laugh about it, but car makers "tune" exhausts for sound all the time.

-juice

nippononly

the fuel economy advantage of the new HL/RX could be much closer to 20 than 10 over their regular gas counterparts. That would be $2000 in savings in the first five years, not to mention the other advantages like much longer distances between fill-ups.

ateixeira

Depends. Prius' EPA ratings are very optimistic. They say 60/51 but owners get 46mpg.

-juice

varmint

I doubt we'll see even a full 10 mpg difference. The RX is getting this set-up in place of a V8. They aren not taking a specially tuned I4 and adding HSD. As I understand it they are taking the same 3.3L V6 and adding HSD.

Am I wrong?

ateixeira

That's what they said at the booth at NAIAS. The net effect it supposed to be a 270hp RX, which sounds pretty good.

Maybe even overkill. The V6 RX is already peppy enough for any reasonably demanding driver.

What's funny is that the architecture will be based on the FWD RX. There will be a FWD model, which adds electric power to the front wheels only.

The AWD model is the same except they add electric power to the rear axle. But there's no gas power going to the rear axle, so it's still based on the FWD models.

So interestingly, they're letting the rear axle work on pure electric power.

-juice

jchan2

somewhere that Toyota was going to introduce a Highlander Hybrid 4-cylinder edition, tuned more for efficiency than for horsepower like the V6 hybrid edition.

nippononly

they expected the combined rating of the hybrid HL/RX to be 30. Considering the current models get less than 20, it seems the 10 point advantage will be a certainty. But I wonder how far they will exceed their goal...

varmint

Nippon - I guess it depends on which models we compare. The FWD RX330 is rated 20-26 mpg (pretty durn good, IMHO). If those numbers from Yoda are for the AWD model, then life is good. If not, the jump is a bit more modest.

nippononly

good point. I should also add that they are projecting both models to have the same powertrain and, I would guess, very similar EPA ratings. The model I was thinking of was the HL V-6 AWD, and I must have just presumed the '30' that Toyota has been throwing around is for an AWD. You are right that if it is the FWD they are referring to, then the advantage is smaller than I thought.

Right now, the RX330 does quite a bit better in EPA numbers than the HL V-6, too, so I should be careful with my presuppositions.

badtoy

is that a 10 mpg difference in a Corolla or Civic amounts to about a 25% increase in economy, whereas in a vehicle getting 20 mpg, it amounts to a 50% increase. Pretty significant, if you ask me.

drfill

At NAIAS, Toyota was putting over the RX400 as having V8 perforance with 4-cylinder Fuel economy, and the COMBINED EPA number that would be produced was 27.6 (as an average), while gaining 40HP. Since the powertrains for the HL and RX are so similar, the only question is did they mean 2WD, not the more popular 4WD.

  If an EPA average of over 27MPG is achieved (probably on a 2WD), we can assume the city/hwy numbers are close to 24/31. I don't have the 2wd HL/RX 2004 numbers handy, but I would guess they're around 20/26.

  So increase power by approx. 17%
  Increase economy/cruising range by 20%
  Increase acceleration from low-8's (2WD) to low-7's (Hybrid), over 10%.
  Reduce noise and emissions even more.
  Increase warranty coverage on Hybrid-related parts 100% (from 50k to 100k)
  
  Increase price ($3-4k?) about 10-15%

  Sounds like a great deal to me.
  
  DrFill (DIG)

drfill

At NAIAS, Toyota was putting over the RX400 as having V8 perforance with 4-cylinder Fuel economy, and the COMBINED EPA number that would be produced was 27.6 (as an average), while gaining 40HP. Since the powertrains for the HL and RX are so similar, the only question is did they mean 2WD, not the more popular 4WD.

  If an EPA average of over 27MPG is achieved (probably on a 2WD), we can assume the city/hwy numbers are close to 24/31. I don't have the 2wd HL/RX 2004 numbers handy, but I would guess they're around 20/26.

  So increase power by approx. 17%
  Increase economy/cruising range by 20%
  Increase acceleration from low-8's (2WD) to low-7's (Hybrid), over 10%.
  Reduce noise and emissions even more.
  Increase warranty coverage on Hybrid-related parts 100% (from 50k to 100k)
  
  Increase price ($3-4k?) about 10-15%

  Sounds like a great deal to me.
  
  DrFill (DIG)

sphinx99

The secret to better fuel economy has nothing to do with hybrids or fuel cells. Nope, all you need is the placebo effect. Have you seen how hybrid owners practically become competitive about maximizing their fuel economy? Well, duplicate the effect. Take a regular gas guzzling car and throw on some funky fuel economy dash computers with colorful bar charts and flashing numbers. Make it look cool, and make it display current fuel economy in big, bright numbers. And paint the word "hybrid" somewhere on the dash.

People will think they're driving a hybrid, and they'll start playing all sorts of mind games with themselves to increase their fuel economy. Give me some pretty software and a cheap but flashy dash and I'll increase the nationwide fuel economy by 5mpg. No batteries or hydrogen refueling stations required.

seminole_kev

actually you're onto something there. For a few months a couple of years ago I was driving a 1985 Cadillac Fleetwood (FWD version). God it was a pile of crap, but it was free and filled a gap until I went and got a new car.

Well it had the little digital "real time" MPG display and I'd always try to see how high I could get it to go (it would hit 45mpg coasting downhill). So that did encourage me to see what I could do with it...........of course it encouraged me to see how bad it could do as well (4mpg floored while still accelerating at a snail's pace).