Both Ford, Nissan buy Toyota's Hybrid System!

varmint

Callmedrfill - I think those numbers are probably as good an estimate as we're going to get. My only contention is with your split on the City/Highway averages. Toyota's hybrid system tends to get better mpg in the city cycle. Dunno if that will be true of these V6 models, but I'd guess the two will be closer.

Sphinx - LOL Very true. When hybrids were first introduced one writer penned it, "the Zen of hybrids".

badtoy

you are certainly right -- driving habits affect economy more than anything else. My wife drives her LS400 (or anything else, for that matter) with her foot to the floor. Then she wonders why she gets lousy gas mileage!

Even though I like to drive fast, I still try to drive smoothly. As a result, I still get above average economy.

ateixeira

LOL sphinx. A little comic relief is nice once in a while.

However, more good news for hybrids.

I verified the state tax incentive for MD, they basically offer up to $2000 in incentives, effectively offsetting the state sales tax on the vehicle.

What does that mean? Well, on a $20k Prius, that saves you $1000 in state sales tax. That's decent.

But...look at the RX400H, prices will be around $44k, so you actually get the max rebate, or $2000, in MD.

The dealer said the option would add $3000 to the MSRP, but subtract the state tax incentive and it's just $1000 extra!

So that means it'll take a lot less time to break even.

Not only that, consider re-sale value. You'll get more than $1000 back if you sell it within 6-7 years, so you'll actually depreciate *less* compared to an RX330.

Amazing? IMHO, Yes. The TCO is actually LOWER, not higher, for the RX400H, vs. the RX330. At least up until the 8/100 battery warranty ends. But that makes it a better deal for most people, probably 90% of Lexus buyers.

All that ignored the wild shortage of supply, and the high demand. The same dealer has 28 cash deposits of $500 on his wait list, $14 grand 9 months before the vehicle arrives.

There is no way they'll meet demand for the first year. Maybe two.

Hybrids are hot, folks!

-juice

jchan2

for even the first three years.

nippononly

after the first year, they will have competition from several different companies, so the wait lists won't last forever...

ateixeira

True.

But we're talking about lower TCO then their non-hybrid counterparts. Those all sell in high enough volume that they might not ever meet demand.

It's possible that Accord buyers will want hybrids even if they didn't intend to at the beginning.

And Camry, and Altima, and RX, and Highlander, and....

-juice

varmint

http://www.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?story- ID=4592820&ric=F.N&infotype=news&articletype=RTR

News bit about who is supplying the electric motors for Ford hybrids. The Escape is mentioned, which makes me think that vehicle is still in the drawing board stages. :-(

ateixeira

There will be serious constraints with the suppliers.

Time to invest in battery makers, folks. ;-)

-juice

drfill

Wonder where you heard that price from?

  $44k for the RX400H?

  DrFill

ateixeira

This dealer had the Premium Plus package on every RX in his lot. They said the customers demand the loaded ones. It also had a Nav on it. So he was adding the hybrid option to that level of equipment.

I really doubt you'll see stripped hybrid models, surely they'll build the higher margin loaded up ones at first, especially since that's what most customers want.

-juice

jchan2

the loaded up models also have higher profit margins.

ateixeira

Both true. At least Toyota will offer a HL for those on a budget. Well, relatively speaking.

-juice

jchan2

I wonder if they'll adapt HSD to the RAV4.

2003sev6

The target is to offer HSD in 75% of their vehicles by 2010 but the goal is to eventually offer it in every model that they produce.

badtoy

for Toyota to offer hybrids in all of their vehicles, because it raises their corporate fuel economy average to the point that they won't have to worry about the CAFE standards, no matter HOW high they go.

varmint

It also means they can offer monster engines in vehicles like the Landcruiser and 4Runner without fear.

nippononly

the two vehicles most crucial for them in the five years to come: Tundra and Sequoia. (both of which may eventually have hybrid availability, if the show car hints are to be believed)

jchan2

so they can leave Detroit in the dust in terms of fuel mileage.

ateixeira

Let's not pick on those Toyota V8s, they're actually smaller than most of the competition.

-juice

nippononly

until next year, though (5.4L anyone?)

ateixeira

I'd say Nissan is the one with bigger-than-necessary engines. I'm not sure an Armada even should be that quick.

-juice

nippononly

they are applauded by every car mag out there, and will probably pocket sales based in large part on being the most powerful, baddest truck out there. In America, horsepower sells. I am not a big fan of this constant upsizing either, but the business case for it is very solid, as it sells.

When will they be balancing the monsters with more hybrid models? What is the Nissan hybrid plan exactly? I don't even know which model is next after Altima.

ateixeira

I think with trucks the angle to sell hybrids is different - mobile power generator.

-juice

jchan2

to make higher MPG numbers.

tincup47

Ford did not "Buy" the Toyota Hybrid system or any of their technology. What Ford did do is to pay a licensing fee for 20 patents of the over 300 that Toyota has filed on Hybrid technology. This is for areas where the Ford's technology may overlap Toyota's patents. There are no Toyota parts in the Escape Hybrid and it was developed with no input from Toyota.

ateixeira

Interesting.

That's good in some ways and bad in some ways.

Maybe we should change the name of the topic to "license" instead of "buy" to be accurate?

-juice

nippononly

is also filing for many more than 20 patents of its own for its hybrid system. The controller software and hardware were the only overlaps I believe.

usbseawolf2000

Toyota has total of 300 patents for the classic Prius. How can Ford's patents overlap? If it does then patents shouldn't have been issued in the first place. I don't think you'll only need 20 patents to get HSD-like hybrid working and start designing your own hybrids.

Dennis

Sylvia

Maybe overlap isn't the correct word, but patents can cite other patents in order to get approved. Not everything included in the patent process has to be 100% genuine. You can patent "improvements" to another entity's patent. Actually, you can tell how valuable an existing patent is by seeing how many patents after it cite or include it in their application process.

nippononly

the HEV has to be an anti-climax after all this time talking about it and so many delays prior to intro.

I wonder if the 400H will wind up beating it to market.

djasonw

Thank goodness. I don't want Toyota to be blamed when the recall notices start getting mailed out for the Ford Escape!!

kdshapiro

Toyota also had to pay out $30M in patent infringement related to hybrid technology.

xcel

Hi All:

 

___The Ford - Toyota deal was not a direct sale but more like a technology exchange. Ford gave up some significant patented technology in the CI-ICE arena. Ford has very advanced injection and timing technology which smoothes their European Diesel’s down almost to std. ICE levels while maintaining the usable torque most diesels possess today. If you think Hybrid FE is great, you only need to look to Ford’s Focus C-Max or Honda’s Accord Saloon iCDTi for what the Europeans all receive today in terms of FE, Performance, and usability without Hybridization.

 

2005 Ford Focus C-MAX

 

1.6 L TDC-i w/ DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter)

0-60: 11.1 seconds * Max speed: 115 mph

Max Power: 109 PS@4000 RPM * Max Torque: 260 Nm@1,750 RPM

FC (Fuel Consumption) Urban: 44.8 mpg * Extra Urban: 68.9 mpg * Combined: 57.6 mpg

EPA ~ equivalents City/Hwy: 40/62?

CO2 emissions: 129 g/km - Euro IV spec’s

 

2.0 L TDC-i w/ DPF

0-60: 9.5 seconds * Max speed: 125 mph

Max Power: 136 PS@4000 RPM * Max Torque: 340 Nm@2000 RPM

FC (Fuel Consumption) Urban: 37.2 mpg * Extra Urban: 58.9 mpg * Combined: 48.7 mpg

EPA ~ equivalents City/Hwy: 33.5/53?

CO2 emissions: 154 g/km - Euro IV spec’s

 

2005 Accord Saloon

 

2.2 L iCDTi

0-60: 9.5 seconds * Max speed: 131 mph

Max Power: 140 PS@4000 RPM * Max Torque: 340 Nm@ 2,000 RPM

FC (Fuel Consumption) Urban: 42.2 mpg * Extra Urban: 61.4 mpg * Combined: 52.3 mpg

EPA ~ equivalents City/Hwy: 38/55.3?

CO2 emissions: 143 g/km - Euro IV spec’s

 

2004 Toyota Prius

 

0-60: 10.6 seconds * Max speed: 106 mph

Max Power: ? * Max Torque: ?

FC (Fuel Consumption) Urban: ~ ? mpg * Extra Urban: ~ ? mpg * Combined: 65.7 mpg

EPA equivalents City/Hwy: 60/51

CO2 emissions: 104 g/km (This one is hard to believe given the FE of the Ford 1.6L is so close as listed above?) - Far better then even Euro V spec’s.

 

___Euro IV emissions are still far dirtier in the NOx and PM w/out DPF’s then even a LEV based automobile here in the states.

 

___Good Luck

 

___Wayne R. Gerdes