No USA model manuals, of either type, I don't think..
They say the new 240 HP version is faster than the old 255 HP model.... It has a new 8-speed automatic vs. the old 6-speed auto (the old tranny programming is a sore spot with many X3 owners..).
I've seen my wifes old 2002 Mercedes C230 hatch a few times since she traded it. I can spot it because the dealer she bought it from has a big ol dealer sticker that sits inside the lower corner of the window and was probably a huge PAI to remove so they left it.
Still looks great, no dents and well maintained. :shades:
You're right, that's a lot. But I might claim the Genesis and Equus would be in their Lexus/Inifinti lines, if they had one. Instead of the current Kia/Hyundai setup, they need a Hyundai/premium brand split. What's the real difference between a Kia and a Hyundai, anyway?
I really have no idea. I do know, though, cause I was just looking yesterday, that the lower-end Kia SUV (I think its the Sorento??) has 3 rows, while you have to step all the way up to the top Hyundai to get that. Something like $8k difference. I don't know what that means, or why they did it, but there ya go. I also think the Kia SUVs are better looking than the Hyundais at the moment.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hyundai was supposed to move upscale, while Kia was the sportier brand. That move has just begun so we don't really see the result of that strategy yet, except perhaps the Genesis and Equus.
I don't think they need an Accent sedan, I imagine the hatch sells better anyway. But it is B segment, and the Elantra is C segment. The Sonata is nearly a full-sizer.
The most redundant sedan is probably the Azera. The Genesis sort of fills the niche that the Azera was supposed to fill anyway.
The Equus is a flagship and IMHO plenty differentiated - check out the rear recliners.
"Hyundai was supposed to move upscale, while Kia was the sportier brand."
Well, I'd like to be 30 again, but that ain't happening, either! I do like many recent Kias from the styling dept., but there seems to be about 90% overlap with the corresponding Hyundai models.
Currently Hyundai Motor Company owns less than 40% of Kia. Still controls it with that percentage. I don't see much info about platform sharing and the like off-hand - anyone know? I think Kia was really hoping that Ford would bail them out when they went banko in 1997 but the Korean government made them go with Hyundai.
Kia seems to be focusing on European sales more than Hyundai. They hired German Peter Schreyer of Audi fame as Chief Design Officer four or five years ago.
They sell the B-class in Brazil, come to think of it the A-class as well.
I say bring the B, ditch the A.
The R-class is so expensive Mercedes doesn't really have an affordable people mover. The GLK is too small, and I'm not sure I'd call the ML affordable.
We don't need the A here, and I can't imagine it coming. But the B could work, especially with some kind of atypical (diesel or hybrid, or both) powertrain.
I am surprised the R is still around, but at least it exists as a diesel.
That's just it, though, the Fit is distinguised by being a hatchback. They aren't canibalizing their own sales with it. Several manufacturers have specialty models like that. Like BMW's 1 series and Audi's A3 (just to name a couple). So if the Accent was hatchback only, it would make more sense.
As for the luxo brands, they are just that, more luxo. So the TL and Accord aren't different sizes... just outfitted differently. I don't think 4 lines of sedans is all that common. And now that we've added it up, Hyundai even has 6.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Ford: Fiesta, focus, fusion, taurus. And formerly Crown Vic. nissan: Venza, Sentra (that seems really cannibalistic), altima, maxima Hyundai, covered. Will be interesting to see how accent hurts elantra. Toyota: they got 4.
Right. But I believe (without looking at ALL of them) that there are far more manufacturers with less than 4. And even if we set 4 as the far end of the bell curve, Hyundai is still an anomaly with 6.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And there really aren't that many more "big" makers that have that broad of a product line.
Hyundai though is unique in that they don't have a premium line. If you take Ford and add lincoln, they have more.Toyota/Lexus, etc.
I don't see the problem, as long as they are distinct in some way (size/purpose/cost/market niche)
Accent/elantra (like Nissan with Venza/Sentra) are the only ones that seem to overlap enough to maybe be redundant. But the accent is smaller/strippier/cheaper, but i guess the same thing could be accomplished with a strippo (smaller engine) Elantra.
Equis is off by itself trying to be a Lexus lS. and like Lexus with the GS and ES, the Azerra (which probably goes away soon) and Genny are aimed at different buyers, although they are roughly the same size and price (V6 at least).
Interesting, my friend that works for Hyundai corporate (and the reason I always saw the new stuff months before everyone else!) really liked the Azerra better than the Genny. Guess he liked the smooth, plushy ride.
Count me in with the folks who think the new Optima looks better than the Sonata - and I like the Sonata.
Four word answer to why they still make 4 door Accents - Enterprise Rent A Car. Had one a year or so ago. Stripper that you could probably buy with pocket change. Even had window cranks.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
price is big. even though there is not that much real-world difference in size or performance, having the Accent lets Hyundai have a super cheap strippo model, without have to decontent the heck out of the Elantra. Plus, they can start with a better, more expensive platform if they want to.
I also like the Optima better. just looks better to me, and I am not a fan of the ultra swoopy styling on a family car. I don't care for the MB CLS either. Must be my Volvo 144 roots showing.
I actually prefer the styling on the Sonata, but the Optima's options packages let me configure one much more to my liking. They don't package the tech stuff with pricey models like Hyundai does.
I'd like to see a manual in the 2.0T models, though.
At 40mpg you would be driving for a couple of weeks between fill-ups, too.
How big is its gas tank?
I care more about range than actual mileage, so if the 33mpg Optima turbo has a big enough tank to even things out, I'd still, well, Opt for the Optima.
I beleive the optima is 16 or 16 gals. About the same as everything else in the class (my 2005 accord is 16.9 IIRC).
the Elantra they downsized with the new model to ~12gals. Too small IMO, since if you are doing more local stuff and dropping the miles down to say 30, your range gets cut pretty low (I won't go below 1/4 of a tank if I can help it, and usually try to fill at around 1/3, so that only leaves 8-9 gals to use).
nothing can be as bad as my Opel was. partly do to a screwed up FI system, I only got about 20 (on the highway!) with that POC. and it only had a 10 gal tank, so you didn't go very far on a trip without stopping
I do like the touring. I seem to recall hearing that they will be coming out with a replacement shortly (maybe in a year, if that long) for it based on the new platform (the current model was not based on the outgoing Elantra we got, rather on some Euro version).
Hopefully they keep the relatively boxy rear, instead of making it all swoopy and low slung. Wouldn't want my dod to bump his head (at this point, he is the primary reaosn I want a wagon, since this would be too small to serve as the family truckster).
Comments
They say the new 240 HP version is faster than the old 255 HP model.... It has a new 8-speed automatic vs. the old 6-speed auto (the old tranny programming is a sore spot with many X3 owners..).
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
My issue with the old one was the rock-hard ride.
Re: Countryman. That is the first time I've ever heard "eww" when referring to the looks of a mini.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
A MINI was in my top five choices when I was looking for the last car... I think she was praying that I wouldn't get one...
I thought looking like a MINI was one of the best parts!
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I was happy to see she looked great, clean and no dents.
Ever happen to anyone else, i.e. seeing a car you sold on the road?
Still looks great, no dents and well maintained. :shades:
It was FILTHY!
Buyer has no shame at all. I was so sad....
Does any other manufacturer offer that many? Honda = 2, I believe. Toyota = 3, Mazda = 2, BMW = 3, Benz = 3, Acura = 3 .....
They should probably at least eliminate the Accent sedan. I thought the new sonata would eliminate the elantra ... guess I was wrong.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
BUT, ya know what? I even left off a couple of Hyundais! The also have the Equus and the Azera!! Good grief.
And to add to the silliness, the Accent is only a grand less than the Elantra.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't think they need an Accent sedan, I imagine the hatch sells better anyway. But it is B segment, and the Elantra is C segment. The Sonata is nearly a full-sizer.
The most redundant sedan is probably the Azera. The Genesis sort of fills the niche that the Azera was supposed to fill anyway.
The Equus is a flagship and IMHO plenty differentiated - check out the rear recliners.
That being said, nobody would mourn the loss of the Accent sedan...I can't imagine why anyone would buy one.
Rear recliners? Boring, W126 had that 30 years ago.
Well, I'd like to be 30 again, but that ain't happening, either! I do like many recent Kias from the styling dept., but there seems to be about 90% overlap with the corresponding Hyundai models.
Kia seems to be focusing on European sales more than Hyundai. They hired German Peter Schreyer of Audi fame as Chief Design Officer four or five years ago.
Did you see this sweet AMG-powered B-class?
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/03/video-mercedes-benz-b55-does-the-burnout-weve- -been-waiting-for/
Vid's kinda lame but that would be one fun family car.
You're taking my comments out of context.
The point is the Equus is distinct from the Genesis.
The current Equus is an older KDM design. I'm betting the next generation will look (and be) a lot better.
Sonata/Optima
Tucson/Sportage
To be fair they look nothing like one another.
Could it look anything but better? I see H kind of has an unintended strategy..."wait til the next one"...not very smooth.
I'm surprised the B hasn't been brought to the US...they sell in Canada.
AMG or diesel is the only way I'd go.
Kia has Schreyer (from Audi) so they have nowhere to go but up.
I say bring the B, ditch the A.
The R-class is so expensive Mercedes doesn't really have an affordable people mover. The GLK is too small, and I'm not sure I'd call the ML affordable.
I'll hold that the Optima looks better than the Sonata.
I am surprised the R is still around, but at least it exists as a diesel.
a few might not be straight 4 door sedans, but they are distinct sizes and market segments.
Honda does too if you count the fit, and Acura!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
As for the luxo brands, they are just that, more luxo. So the TL and Accord aren't different sizes... just outfitted differently. I don't think 4 lines of sedans is all that common. And now that we've added it up, Hyundai even has 6.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
nissan: Venza, Sentra (that seems really cannibalistic), altima, maxima
Hyundai, covered. Will be interesting to see how accent hurts elantra.
Toyota: they got 4.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And there really aren't that many more "big" makers that have that broad of a product line.
Hyundai though is unique in that they don't have a premium line. If you take Ford and add lincoln, they have more.Toyota/Lexus, etc.
I don't see the problem, as long as they are distinct in some way (size/purpose/cost/market niche)
Accent/elantra (like Nissan with Venza/Sentra) are the only ones that seem to overlap enough to maybe be redundant. But the accent is smaller/strippier/cheaper, but i guess the same thing could be accomplished with a strippo (smaller engine) Elantra.
Equis is off by itself trying to be a Lexus lS. and like Lexus with the GS and ES, the Azerra (which probably goes away soon) and Genny are aimed at different buyers, although they are roughly the same size and price (V6 at least).
Interesting, my friend that works for Hyundai corporate (and the reason I always saw the new stuff months before everyone else!) really liked the Azerra better than the Genny. Guess he liked the smooth, plushy ride.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
With the Genesis, Hyundai was still gun shy, uncommitted.
Four word answer to why they still make 4 door Accents - Enterprise Rent A Car. Had one a year or so ago. Stripper that you could probably buy with pocket change. Even had window cranks.
I also like the Optima better. just looks better to me, and I am not a fan of the ultra swoopy styling on a family car. I don't care for the MB CLS either. Must be my Volvo 144 roots showing.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'd like to see a manual in the 2.0T models, though.
I had forgotten that! Mine was a 142 - not because I wanted two doors but when you buy used you give up some choices.
I want to see the new Elantra up close. I'm enough of a cheapskate to really like that.
How big is its gas tank?
I care more about range than actual mileage, so if the 33mpg Optima turbo has a big enough tank to even things out, I'd still, well, Opt for the Optima.
the Elantra they downsized with the new model to ~12gals. Too small IMO, since if you are doing more local stuff and dropping the miles down to say 30, your range gets cut pretty low (I won't go below 1/4 of a tank if I can help it, and usually try to fill at around 1/3, so that only leaves 8-9 gals to use).
nothing can be as bad as my Opel was. partly do to a screwed up FI system, I only got about 20 (on the highway!) with that POC. and it only had a 10 gal tank, so you didn't go very far on a trip without stopping
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I wonder if Hyundai will redo the Elantra Touring any time soon. Wagons are hard to come by anymore.
Hopefully they keep the relatively boxy rear, instead of making it all swoopy and low slung. Wouldn't want my dod to bump his head (at this point, he is the primary reaosn I want a wagon, since this would be too small to serve as the family truckster).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I think the Camry has a fairly big gas tank, less so on the hybrid. The Altima also. A 2.5 CVT Altima can go quite a ways on a single gas tank.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
Only standouts were my 300Z and S70. Both got mileage in the mid 20s with an 18-19 gallon tank, so 450-500 was more common with those.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's too bad (unless maybe it's a big hatch). They'll probably de-content it too.
They may do a bigger touring based on the Sonata - hopefully it comes here with DI and a 6 speed manual.