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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Let's just say the batteries are $6,000 which is down from the numbers I have seen published in the Car Enthusiasts magazines. Let's just say that the batteries in your chosen used car have a predicted life of X years and the original owner kept the car for 65% of those years.

    The price, USED, of this car NO MATTER HOW NICE with only 35% of its battery life left and an estimated cost of $6,000 to replace them would be (you choose) "higher" or "lower?" Hmm. I'd bet the price will drop like a stone on a planet with high gravity and no atmosphere, so to speak.

    On another issue, there are those "would you" games we played in school -- you may remember them, they were meant to be oh so telling and philosophical and thought provoking.

    "Would you do the wrong thing but for the right reason?" kind of Deep Thoughts.

    It is my perhaps Homer Simpson Bold Opinion that this hybrid brouhaha is a perfect example of "doing the wrong thing (in so many ways) for the right reason."

    Diesels, forced induction and all clean and pretty smelling, are able to do the right thing for the right reason.

    Prediction: Hybrids "seemed like a good idea at the time" but are/were for all practical purposes based on what we know now and where we are today a "blunder" up there with Piech's Folly, the Phaeton. We just can't own up to it yet, 'cause we have so much invested in it, hopefully it will "catch on."

    "Wax on, wax off." :surprise:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    All this focus on the batteries, as though they were the achilles heal of hybrid technology.

    Prediciton: The batteries will last longer than the fearful will predict. The replacements, which will be MANY years down the road will be MUCH cheaper than current estimates. The replacements will be a NEWER technology than the ones they replace. Hybrids will be mainstream.

    Diesel: It will get MUCH better, cleaner, and more popular.

    It is important that fuel-efficient vehicles are the ones that get purchased, because if they do, then the manufacturers will build more of them. If the gas hogs are the ones that get purchased because of resistance to progress, then there will be less progress made.

    The marketplace will determine what happens, and I sincerely hope that it rewards progress. Remember, progress is never the perfect solution . . . but at least it points in the right direction, as opposed to the naysayers that would have us stay the same destructive course because the progress isn't good enough for them, but somehow doing nothing is.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    There's a very interesting article in this month's C&D about the "hybrid" motor that BMW is working on. Rather than using regenerative braking, it uses the heat and wasted energy from the car's exhaust to drive a steam engine, which gives the ICE currently about a 15-20hp boost. BMW says there's a 15-20% increase in fuel economy, there are no batteries, and unlike gas\electric hybrids, the system works all the time, not just in stop and go traffic.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Yep -- and here I bet you thought I was making it up several posts back!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    I also hope the hybrid technology becomes a raging success. If the cost goes down dramatically this could happen. Right now I believe the only people buying these cars are people who want to make a statement. An expensive statement.

    Maybe in a few years we will be able to drop a little nuclear capsule into our water tank and drive for years and years by just adding water when needed. Of course we will probably be running out of water by then and it will cost $10. a gallon. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You wouldn't believe the price I paid for one of the first computers. Do I regret it? Not at all. Now I've got one that is light speed by comparison and costs a fraction of the early models. But next year it will be a snail by comparison again. That's just how it goes with technology and improvements. I'm good with it. I'm not avoiding it because it improves quickly! I'm jumping right in and enjoying it. Am I wasting money? Maybe a little, but I'm in the game and loving it. I think you see my point.

    I'm looking forward to your nuclear capsule.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Rather than using regenerative braking, it uses the heat and wasted energy from the car's exhaust to drive a steam engine, which gives the ICE currently about a 15-20hp boost. BMW says there's a 15-20% increase in fuel economy, there are no batteries, and unlike gas\electric hybrids, the system works all the time, not just in stop and go traffic.

    BMW estimates this technology will be introduced in about ten years. I will hold my enthusiasm for this technology before the year 2016.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I've long wondered why car makers didn't try to capture some of the wasted energy in the exhaust system for simple things like running the A/C, Alternator, Water Pump, and maybe even an auxilary drive for a hydraulic pump for the power steering and brakes (although some cars now power those devices with electricity).

    As I see it, upon cold start, the engine could drive a serpentine belt that in turn drives all of the various accessories. Then when enough of a head of steam was built up, have a clutch for the engine/belt pully interface decouple and then engage the steam driven belt. Gee, thinking about this further, just keep the engine engaged and let the steam driven pully help the engine along as well. This doesn't seem to me to be too much of a technological leap that it would take ten years to perfect. Obviously I'm missing something. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I've long wondered why car makers didn't try to capture some of the wasted energy in the exhaust system for simple things like running the A/C, Alternator, Water Pump, and maybe even an auxilary drive for a hydraulic pump for the power steering and brakes

    As many of your posts have indicated, you have a good engineering sense, and the answer to your question is the common and unfortunate one. MONEY. There has been little financial incentive to be energy efficient when those that have the energy sell the energy and have all the power. They will be the same ones that take control of WHATEVER the new forms of energy are and the methods of distribution. That's why we will be in a state of transition for years to come. So, it is up to us to embrace the fuel-efficient vehicles, and reward progress in the marketplace.

    TagMan
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    "those that have the energy sell the energy and have all the power. They will be the same ones that take control of WHATEVER the new forms of energy are and the methods of distribution."

    Are those the same guys in the black helicopters?
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    Well, regenerators (recuperators) are expensive & bulky. Heat exchangers that can tolerate the temperatures we're talking about use materials not usually seen in the automotive world, besides which it'd need a 10-year/100K mile life. The Honeywell AGT1500 turbine engine in the Abrams tank recovers heat from the exhaust in a unit that is nearly as large as the rest of the engine.

    Sometimes these ideas aren't so new -- there are reasons beyond the disincentive to be energy efficient behind much of this.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Are those the same guys in the black helicopters?

    :D:D:D

    If you read the WSJ or Business Week once in a while, or any other business rag, you KNOW who they are.

    BTW, the guys in the choppers are merely employees.

    :P

    TagMan
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    The biggest problem I see with the battery stacks on a hybrid are that they are series/parallel in order to get enough voltage and current. All it takes is one bad joint or battery in a stack to kill it, thus decreasing the overall current available. From the cut-away displays I've seen at autoshows, the batteries look very much like heavy duty ni-cad D-cells. My experience with batteries leads me to stay away.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    All it takes is one bad joint or battery in a stack to kill it, thus decreasing the overall current available.

    So far the batteries are as reliable as "Lexus".

    My experience with batteries leads me to stay away.

    Think about it . . . the complexity of an auto engine itself is certainly more sophisticated, intimidating, and often troublesome . . . and our experience with engines doesn't "lead us to stay away" and travel via horseback.

    :P

    TagMan
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    You: "BTW, the guys in the choppers are merely employees."

    Random House Dictionary, 2d ed., unabridged:

    "Sarcasm: . . . ironical taunt."
    "humor: . . . the faculty of perceiving what is amusing or comical."

    Lighten up, man.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I took both posts to be sarcasm/humor.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    A few years ago all autos were supposed to start the conversion to a 24 volt electrical system. This was because of all the new gadgets on cars that needed more power. Obviously this conversion hasn't happened.

    Maybe someone like Shipo, or anyone else for that matter,knows why? Or maybe I just dreamed this.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    How many dead battery packs do you have for your electric drill, or other device. If you take it apart, you often find maybe only one battery is dead, but the whole assembly is useless unless you feel able to replace the bad cell (not something likely be able to be done on a car's assembly). There are dozens and dozens of batteries in a typical hybrid battery stack...losing just one will make that series portion useless, decrease performance and overall usefullness. It also will put more stress on the remaining batteries, leading to their quicker demise. I don't have any problem with a complex machine, but most things can be repaired or replaced and will live longer than these humble batteries. Then what will you have, a car that doesn't have enough power to run the electrics, and you must rely on the good old internal combustion engine, or a quite expensive replacement.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    While I've never heard anything about cars converting to 24v, I'm not at all surprised that there might could well be a small movement in that direction. That having been said, a 24v system won't provide one electron extra as far as power is concerned over a similar 12v system. What it WILL do is do it with lighter weight wire and electrical connections. That's why small airplanes like the Cessna 172 converted from 12v to 24v years ago.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hey Doc, help me out here. Was I misunderstood? Did Warthog actually think I was serious?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Your point is well taken, but the record speaks for itself so far. The record is awesome. I guess my question to you is this . . . What does it have to do to prove itself reliable if having no problems for many years in a row isn't enough proof?
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Actually, they are talking about 48v. At that point, electric solonoids can be used for controlling valves,and many otherthings without the current making things too big or having them get too hot.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    How many years have hybrid cars been around? Not long enough to tell yet. Batteries have, and probably will be the weak link for years to come. They keep getting better, but you still have trouble with most things keeping a battery going for many years. They last longer if you never deep-discharge them, but a car's power requirements still move a lot of current in and out. That generates heat, and batteries don't like it. Do a cold start on a day below zero, and the protection circuits probably won't do much for them prior to them warming up, either. Whenever our diesel (and gasoline for that matter) comes with low-enough sulfur, we can gain a significant economy improvement. On a cold start, US cars require about 10% more fuel than the European counterparts because of the differences in the catalytic converter components (theirs heat up quicker but we can't use them because the sulfur pollutes them).
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Was I misunderstood? Did Warthog actually think I was serious?

    I certainly got it and thought it was funny: that there are powers beyond even the powers-that-be). Warthog obviously read something else into it, but I don't know what.

    Warthog, Tagman has proven himself to be one who does not insult or put down others, so whatever you thought he meant, I can safely say he didn't.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As many of your posts have indicated, you have a good engineering sense, and the answer to your question is the common and unfortunate one. MONEY.

    Yes and no!

    BMW's priorities are to serve their customers priorities which as far as I know is not fuel efficiency. Their R & D Euros will be spent on hp increasing endeavors as bi-turbo engines versus major fuel efficiency technologies. I mean how many decades has it been since I read about BMW's fuel saving hydrogen technologies and how many decades in the future will we keep on reading about BMW's hyrbdogen technologies before they actually become widely available?

    When I first read about BMW's steam endeavors the first thought that came to my mind was what a wonderful way to generate more hp( the fuel efficiency aspect of that technoloy is IMO of secondary importance for BMW customers).

    And as we know there are far simpler ways to increase hp than steam power. So BMW will focus on the path of least resistance versus most resistance in their attempts to increase hp.

    When those that have the energy sell the energy and have all the power. They will be the same ones that take control of WHATEVER the new forms of energy are and the methods of distribution.

    Did you write the script for that Syriana movie? ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    Obviously Tagman was not trying to put anyone down. I am beginning to wonder if warthog was serious or maybe we misunderstood him.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    I suppose this is getting more complicated than is warranted; however, for what it’s worth, here’s what I was reacting to:

    Tagman’s post #6895 struck me as left-wing paranoid (“those that have the energy sell the energy and have all the power. They will be the same ones that take control of WHATEVER the new forms of energy are and the methods of distribution”). Apparently, Dewey thought so too (“Did you write the script for that Syriana movie?”) That was the point of my remark about the black helicopters. It was a wisecrack, but intended to suggest that Tag was a tad conspiratorial on the subject.

    Then Tagman replied with post #6898 (“If you read the WSJ or Business Week once in a while, or any other business rag, you KNOW who they are. BTW, the guys in the choppers are merely employees.”) I took this, and still take it, as an intended put-down, implying that if I would simply read a newspaper I would certainly agree with his original post.

    If I misread you, Tagman, I apologize.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    apology accepted.

    Just FYI, you and I both know it would be a huge mistake to open up the squirrel's nest and talk politics, but I'll reveal that there's nothing left-wing about me, and I'm no ultra right wing extremist either. On most things, I'm right of center, and that's as far as I'll go with it here.

    Take care, my friend,

    TagMan
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    I've been away from this interesting forum for a few weeks, and came back to 100's of new posts.
    How do you people find enough time in the day for all this writing, and still make enough $$ to buy these LPS's? I get by on 4 hours sleep, and still can't find enough time.


    Me too except I've been gone longer - I came back to 1008 posts :blush:
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    Some do, some don't. It depends on the comparison.

    CR's Annual Auto Issue (April '06) has a great analysis of hybrid TCO - ALL cost more over 5 years than non-hybrids. The best was about $3000+ more while the worst was $13,000+ more.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    Ok, therefore...the CR results are a mere reflection of the Japanese car biases that are held by a majority of surveyed CR readers.

    I call BS :sick: I have subcribed to CR for over 20 years. During that time I have owned Fords, Chryslers, Acuras and Infinitis. CR sends me a survey and I fill it out. There is no bias involved at all.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    When the new M35 was reviewed, reliability was predicted as excellent.
    How can they assume this with a completely new model?


    The M was on sale in Japan for a year BEFORE it debuted elsewhere - the new M may be technically an '06 but pragmaticaaly it it is not.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    The problem with CR is that they do not publish any information about sample sizes. Suppose only 2 readers write in for one car, and one of them has more than a few problems. The car gets a poor rating, even though a sample of 10 may have only showed one problem car. I know this may sound extreme, but without any knowledge concerning the reliability of their own statistics, I would have a hard time buying only based on CR reliability ratings.

    Not exactly true. Look at the ratings; many times CR skips a year stating not enough replies.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    ALL cost more over 5 years than non-hybrids.

    WRONG!!!! CR FINALLY admitted their mistake and apologized for their mathematical errors. In fact, the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid actually come out AHEAD, and others are not near as far behind as they had originally miscalculated.

    Just another in a string of CR goof-ups over the years.

    The problem is that most folks read their mistakes and all the secondary reporting that comes right after . . . and by the time they say they are sorry for their error, no one is paying attention . . . but then it's too late . . . because CR has already done the major damage! It's a shame.

    Let's get the facts right, for goodness sakes!

    TagMan
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    WRONG!!!! CR FINALLY admitted their mistake and apologized for their mathematical errors. In fact, the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid actually come out AHEAD, and others are not near as far behind as they had originally miscalculated.

    I detect from your "screaming" and your "ranting" that you hate CR. Your bias comes thru loud and clear. I could not find an official apology from CR at all (although they should!). Could you provide a link? That a mistake was made is clear however because CR has an update on their website.

    From the CR website: So, for people who believe that hybrids will also save them money, the picture hasn't been so clear. That's why Consumer Reports investigated all of the major ownership costs and financial benefits of these models. The study reveals two notable findings:

    In our analysis, only two of the six hybrids we have tested recovered their price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership (see Hybrids vs. all gas). The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid provide a savings of about $400 and $300, respectively, over that period. But that is only if buyers are able to take advantage of limited federal tax credits. Extra ownership costs over five years for the other four models ranged from about $1,900 to $5,500, compared with those of similar all-gas models.


    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-of-hybrid-vehicles-40- - - - 6/overview.htm
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    I found the math error link: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-of-hybrid-vehicles-40- - - - 6/a-note-about-this-report.htm

    Regarding the mistake CR concluded: The revised figures do not change our message to car buyers that the costs and benefits of hybrids vary significantly, depending on the model, and that consumers should weigh them carefully before buying one.

    I chimed into this discussion (rather late by the way :blush: ) because hybrids in general are not the money savers some people think they are; nor is the majority of LPS buyers interested in fuel savings anyway.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    I only wish the hybrids could do all that is claimed for them. It is obvious that they are not a good deal if you are trying to save money.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Audis are certainly safe vehicles to drive.
    This is definitely a miracle story. I think this could be used in an Audi safety ad?

    Take a look at the video footage at the site below, Incredible!!!

    link title

    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    hybrids in general are not the money savers some people think they are; nor is the majority of LPS buyers interested in fuel savings anyway

    I think it is understandably short-sighted of some folks to think that hybrid technology is only about saving money on fuel. For the most part, that's how it has been represented. But that is starting to change, as it should. Case in point . . . the new Lexus hybrids . . . they will not only deliver better fuel economy, but will deliver MORE power, not less, and do so more efficiently. Some folks like the idea of more efficient power. Later on, even the new Lexus LS will achieve MORE power, and do so more efficiently, but that discussion will be on the HELMs forum.

    Regarding your remark that LPS buyers aren't interested in fuel savings anyway . . . I disagree. IMO, most people in the performance category are interested, but they do not want to give up horsepower and performance. Once it is realized that hybrid technology can deliver an increase in fuel efficiency AND horsepower, it then becomes more attractive to the performance buyer as well as others. This will be more obvious as more vehicles like this come to marketplace. Lexus will prove this as well as anyone.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    call BS I have subcribed to CR for over 20 years. During that time I have owned Fords, Chryslers, Acuras and Infinitis. CR sends me a survey and I fill it out. There is no bias involved at all.

    Interesting! And are you the spokesman for every single CR survey taker? Do you really believe and know that there is no bias whatsoever in CR surveys? If that is what you honestly believe then there is nothing more to discuss.
  • gohorns1gohorns1 Member Posts: 53
    I just don't get why some folks get so bent out of shape regarding CR. It is a survey of drivers based on the cars they drive. Do drivers of Japanese cars write in regarding BMW or Audi. I really doubt it. For what ever reason, those who drive Japanese cars respond more favorable than those that drive cars made in other countries, most notably Germany. I will assume that CR does not alter the results. If they base their conclusions on the responses of drivers, one would have to assume that more drivers of German made cars, at least in the past, responded negatively than drivers of Japanese cars. Now, maybe the survey doesn't ask enough about performance (I personally, have never taken the time to fill out the survey), but if I am not mistaken, CR's criticism of BMW and Audi, the two car makers in this forum, have been reliability not performance. In fact, I believe they often give BMW the nod for performance but knock it for reliability. Now, is CR just seeking out disgruntled BMW drivers? If they are, then I can see the bias. Maybe one could argue that the content BMW/Audi drivers don't respond because they are too busy driving their cars. Who knows. Take CR for what it is, nothing more and nothing less.
  • gohorns1gohorns1 Member Posts: 53
    I should have included MB with Audi and BMW in the above post. Didn't want to leave anyone out........
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Everything you have written does not contradict what I have said. Saying that CR alters results is silly and I did not say such a thing.

    What does it mean to be unreliable according to CR?

    My mother drives a 01 MB C240 which has a notorious CR reliability rating.

    Does that mean her car breaks down a lot? No

    Does it mean she spends a lot of time getting her car serviced? No

    Does it mean that her car is expensive to maintain? As far as I know she is not spending big $$ for maintenance.

    Ofcourse her individual car is not a statistically valid example. BUT what if she used CR to buy her car? Would she have bought her MB. Absolutely not since those black dots would be a fearful sight for almost anybody. And following CR as a guide for car purchases would have deprieved her from owning a car she loves.

    Which brings me to one point that is raised by the CR findings:

    None and I repeat none(not even the least reliable German cars) are on the List of the Least Satisfying Cars to Own. While quite a few of the Least Satisfying Cars to Own are Japanese cars.

    WHat does this say? To me it says that having a black dot for reliablity is not at all as bad as most CR readers would interpret it to be. The difference between reliability and unrelibility does not carry the same weight as it did in the past. The CR stats in the 1960s/70s showed that MGs were unreliable and yes they were very unreliable. Today it can be argued that the differences between the ratings of CR reliability and unreliability is more subtle than what it was in the past

    But today unfortunatley most readers view a CR unreliability rating as if if owning such a rated car will be horrific experience(a myth indeed)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    Friday, March 17, 2006-Sebring, FL.

    Two Audi diesel powered sports racing cars qualified 1 and 2 for Saturdays 12 hour race. They both broke the track record in doing so.

    Saturday, March 18, 2006-Sebring, FL.

    One of the diesel powered Audi R10s went on to win the grueling 12 hour race. Taking over the lead from the other R10 when it was forced to retire due to overheating problems. These cars were so quiet you could hardly tell there was an engine back there one of the drivers said.
    Further, there was no smell and no smoke. The fuel was a new type of diesel developed by Shell Oil.

    If anyone else has any info on this race I would love to hear about it. For some reason info is very difficult to come by.

    I guess I am thinking that history was made Saturday and hardly anyone noticed! Comments please!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    dewey,
    What a great post! The interpretation of CR's ratings is part of the problem. People see those black dots and wham, they think those cars are a p.o.s. Yes, they are not as reliable as the red dots, but the red dots are more reliable than they used to be as well. From what I understand, there is almost a threshhold that has been reached with regards to reliability, and that it is practically impossible to reach higher reliability levels than what has been reached by the most reliable cars.

    So, by comparison, the black dots of today could easily be better than the red dots of generations ago!

    The real point is that CR is largely unsuccessful at having their data understood for what it truly indicates. If they are going to take the time to acquire and publish so much data, it stands to reason that they should take more responsibility to make sure that the data is interpreted a little better.

    Man, I sure liked your post.

    TagMan
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    CR's reliability ratings used to be (I haven't looked for awhile) based on number of non-routine maintenance visits, and their cost. So, new brakes or wiper blades, being routine, don't count against it, but a new radiator, or an early water pump, or a bad bushing or seal at an early mileage would count. Two reasons I didn't buy a new AUdi, the sunroof takes up too much headroom, and I had to replace too many things, too early. I liked driving the car, but not the trips to the shop, or their cost. One shouldn't have to replace radiators, steering components, water pump, bushings, nor seals on a car with 40K.
  • gohorns1gohorns1 Member Posts: 53
    WOW, or should I say WOW.
    My initial question remains, why such ire for CR.
    But, to respond and I should be clear, I nor any of my family works for CR (whew!)
    Of course your mom should drive what she wants. As I said in my post, CR is just one tool that can be used. But I interpret their comparisons to be relative. So while all cars may have better reliability than equivalent cars from decades ago, the red dots are still relatively better. If one feels that this is an insignificant difference, then interpret it as such. But, it doesn't take away from the results. I could point out my dad's horrendous experience with an A6. While he has had no out of pocket expense due to the warranty, he had to go back and forth to the dealer continuously.
    Does that mean his car breaks down a lot? Yes

    Does it mean he spends a lot of time getting his car serviced? Yes

    As you said, one example is not statistically significant. But, to use your conclusion, if he had used the black dots, he may have avoided the hassles. He loved driving the car when he had it, but the hassles out weighed the driving experience. Again, for some, the CR ratings may be helpful and have value.

    Again, why such ire?
    (Should I use more bold in my posts?)
  • gohorns1gohorns1 Member Posts: 53
    I find that hard to believe. There is still room for improved reliability for all cars. But to accept your conclusion, that still leaves room for the less reliable cars to improve to the level of the most reliable. For some, reducing the risk of lost time due to trips to the dealer is an important factor. While it may be less of a difference than in the past, it may still be one factor to consider. I do agree that no one should rely on just one source regarding such a significant purchase
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What are a lot more useful in general than CR's individual dots are their comparison charts that show just how reliable (or not) the owners reported their cars to be, rather than just <2-5% (full red dot) or >15% (full black dot) in a particular area. In the "luxury car" comparison chart, the GS scores the best by a wide margin, but you'll notice that the GS only manages a mediocre overall score from CR. They take reliability into consideration when determining a car's overall rating, but it is not the only priority that they have.

    What would make me nervous looking at that chart is the S-type, with its 121% worse than average reliability score. Theres certainly a chance that you could buy an S-type and have the most wonderful, trouble free experience in the world with it. Obviously however, there's a FAR greater chance that something will go wrong with it than say the GS, M, or even the 5.

    Also, for those that say CR loves everything Japanese, they should note that the Infiniti QX56 is CR's least reliable new car, with far worse scores than the Range Rover, Cayenne, and even the Toureg.
  • vchiuvchiu Member Posts: 564
    I am a little in steam Engines myself as some of my models are powered by this technology

    cdnpinhead has well underlined the issue of bulkiness. the other issue will be the water supply. creating steam will use a lot of (distilled) water and there is no way to stock it in a big tank as for steam locomotives. So BMW must design a condensor to re-transform the exhaust steam back into water. This condensor is (was) often built in steam ships as there was enough accomodation for it, but this would be a huge hardship in cars where space and weight are limited.

    so I think 10 years is an understatement for "never".
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