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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    I have just seen this in other forum. It is a picture of the new Lexus LS. The poster said that he had to look twice as he first thought the side view was an E60. I would like to see the car with my eyes.
  • I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinion about the new 5. It goes to show that personal opinion is what makes a horse race (and in this case we are talking a lot of horses). My own two times I really like the styling, depending on the angle. Other times, I'm not yet sold, especially from the rear. However, if one majically showed up in my driveway, I'm sure it would grow on me in seconds!
    What I do like is that the styling is distinctive. Everyone seems to have an opinion. If you see a 5, likely you will take notice and either like it or not. It doesn't just blend in with the scenery. Not trying to pick on other's cars, but how often do you notice a 90's Acura or Infiniti (before the G and new M)? This feeds back to the prior thread regarding brand recognition, few have it like BMW. Now lets wait and see, is this version of the 5 going to turn out to be the red-headed (yes I am red headed) step child of the series or will the next model be an extension of this one?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I find it hard to believe anyone really loves the E60 design, not even the owners who say they do. I think they confuse styling with the superior ride qualities and prestige of the badge.

    When you buy one it’s like taking a spouse. He/she can be ugly, cook turd casseroles, be as dumb as a twizzler and nasty as a junkyard dog. But your betrothed is yours and you defend your little darling until divorce do you… woops... I mean death do you part.

    On beauty in the eye of the beholder: I’d like to know how many people behold the beauty of a slug, sewer rat, wild boar and such. Bangle BMWs are inherently ugly just the same, and any aesthetic rationalizations are feeble. You may as well rationalize the aesthetics of a pig wallowing in mud.

    Now I can see myself getting an E60 and loving every minute driving it, especially since nothing else in this category beside the RL and perhaps the E is styled any better than a gnarly little troll, but if that day comes the toad will not be turning into a princess. It is what it is.

    BTW, I never really cared for the styling of the E, but it starts to look better next to all of this junk that is coming off the drawing boards… kind of like Mickey Gilley's girls getting prettier at closing time.

    People are really groping. There’s word that the M is handsome. Man that thing is plump. Since when is Rubenesque anatomy hot? And those Dumbo-eared tail lights look like a caricature of a Crown Victoria.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Believe it. I have liked the looks of all of the 5's over the last 15 years. Granted, the new ones are a distinct departure from prior models. But sales figures don't lie; obviously there are many who like it. I think it looks great (but then again, I think the "plump" M looks great, too). Like it or not, the new 5's are nothing if not distinctive in appearance (although the Pontiac-appearance claims have some merit...but I think this is only from directly head-on).

    Will the looks hold up for the long haul? I don't know. There was a time I thought the Bonneville SSE's from the early to mid 90's looked good. Now all I see is plastic cladding when I see the same cars (and I owned one of those Probe GT's with the bear-clawed cladding from the first model year). Styling tastes change.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    We see a lot of silver cars as well on the road today. The silver colors vary widely and some look good while others look kind of like Tin. Back to the point...while I really like the Celestial Silver of the 2005 RL, (it's the first silver car I ever owned), I am surprised at how quickly it shows dirt (dulls down) :( , especially after a rainy day expressway drive. It requires constant work to keep it looking at it's best. :shades:
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Doc...All this talk bout Plump, Probe, and Bear-claw cladding. are we talking about cars here? Chuckle, chuckle!! :blush:
  • carnaught, you are obviously using an older iDrive system than the one in my 2006 530xi (I am first time BMW owner). To go from a map on the Nav screen to a radio station, you can do this within 2-3 clicks AT MOST as follows:

    - If all you want is to turn on the radio, press the knob on the dash (one click).
    - If you want to change the station that is currently playing, pull back the iDrive controller and it goes directly to the entertainment screen (first click), then scroll to change the station.
    - Better yet, use voice commands to switch to entertainment (one click on the steering wheel to turn on voice recognition).
    - Also available are the two programmable buttons on the steering wheel, which I set to bring up my phone address book and to turn the radio on and off.

    I am sure there are lots of variations to the above, but you get the point I hope. The new iDrive (like all new technologies) has become far more easier to use and is actually quite addictive. Believe me, I am NOT a gadget guy and I don't take too kindly to unnecessary technology, but slamming the new iDrive based on previous versions is just unfair. Just ask any software designer if they are proud of the older versions of their software, and they will surely be embarrassed!
  • I was behind a new M35x on may way in to work today in my 530xi. Boy, was I glad that I did not pick the M35x (it was my second choice). Narrow, plump, and ungainly looking, compared to the athletic pouncing-look of the 5 :D
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    Silver. My, oh my.

    It's extremely easy to live with (unless it gets hit). It's extremely easy to find; every mfr. has, like, five variants of silver/grey on their palette. It's extremely easy to fall asleep looking at it.

    I've been in a silver car now for three years, because that's what I got for taking delivery from stock. I will order next time, and no two ways, if all they can locate is silver, grey or black (my last round of choices).

    Don't get me wrong, I think it looks very nice, but there's just way too much silver out there, and it's boring no matter how you slice it. White, IMO, is fresher than silver now. The subjective side of the autombile is most enjoyable says I. ;)

    I lived with black once. :sick:

    Cambridge Green, Imola Yellow or Arctic White for the S4 Avant should I go that way; Arctic White, Brilliant Red or Ocean Blue for the A3 3.2Q if I jump that way. Should the new IS astound me at the test drive (I doubt it, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway), their palette is by far the most dull, so white it would be.

    Freddy: Infiniti has but one styling winner in my book and it only has two doors!
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    There is a lot of resistence from an amazing number of people out there to advancing technology and even the simplest moves we take for granted on our computers are verboten to many :confuse: . iDrive fits that scenario. (Verboten is coincidently a german word.)
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    I have to agree with you my man...for my tastes I actually miss the White Diamond Pearl and consider it a great color for the TL but for some reason couldn't pull the trigger on it for the RL.
    (When polished up tho'.....THIS silver, blends fabulously with the chrome and can really be impressive on THIS car.)
  • . . .Changing the radio station on the new A6's is more complicated compared to the old way of doing things. But, with voice command, it is less complicated. I now have the ability to press the voice button on my steering wheel and say the word "Radio" followed by 95.5 mega hairrtz (like this: ninety five point five mega hairrtzz) and damn if the thing just doesn't go there -- no muss no fuss.

    You can say "next or previous" station and you can figure that out.

    Thus far you can switch to Sirius, but you must have preloaded your Sirius commands via voice, then you can say "Play the Vault."

    The memory is too small (25 names) but overall everything with voice is actually easier and safer than the old way -- and Audis system, at best is a B+ -- probably by 2007 or '08 the voice system will be much improved.

    The phone certainly is easy to dial, just say "dial number 555-1212" and poof, the phone dials for you.

    Overall, these systems seem like going from DOS to Windows 2.0 -- perhaps a dubious improvement, certainly they can be (at times) kinda cool and sometimes kinda geeky.

    The improvements that are probably "in the pipeline" are the ones to ooh and ahh over -- currently MMI (and I presume i-Drive) can sometimes frustrate.

    This is especially true when I drive my wife's 2005 BMW X3 and can simply punch the radio button #4 to listen to a Sirius sat radio preset channel. I think how much simpler this is than even my high cool factor voice activated Audi -- when it gets down to it, sometimes, simpler IS better.

    Oh well, the next generation can't happen without the first generation - - price we early adopters pay, eh?

  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Narrow, plump, and ungainly looking

    So which is it, narrow or plump? I love my M, but I will admit that the rear is the one area it doesn't show so well. Unfortunately for most (including 530 drivers, it would seem), it is the side that is seen most often... ;)
  • carnaughtcarnaught 'zonaPosts: 2,338
    "carnaught, you are obviously using an older iDrive system than the one in my 2006 530xi (I am first time BMW owner). To go from a map on the Nav screen to a radio station, you can do this within 2-3 clicks AT MOST as follows: ......"

    Well, I didn't realize my one month old '06 3-series had "an older i-drive system" (LOL). What you may call clicks, I call different motions or movements (i.e, scrolling or pushing down). It unnecessarily takes four or more movements to go directly to a desired programed station (again without using the steering wheel controls).

    Reread my referenced post.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    So which is it, narrow or plump?

    Plump. He probably submitted the manuscript unedited.

    On the subject of colors. Not too long ago I saw an MB S in some kind of deep desaturated plum (not to be confused with plump). It was awesome. I thought, man, that person has good taste and guts to boot. I like MB color selections the best. They show the most thought.

    My fantasy is to order some kind of Porsche (Turbo S cab) with a unique pain-and-upholstery-to-sample color... probably a subtle desaturated metallic with a real medium rich brown English leather interior... and of course a tan rag top. Springing for the Porsche is one issue with the little woman, but the 12 grand for the custom colors would probably get me stabbed in my sleep.

    If I got a 5, it could be Silver with Terra interior. May have to see it first. BMW colors are kind of heavy handed, but I did like Orient Blue with Black. Saw an E39 M5 in that combo once. My knees got weak. They do have a pure bright silver though.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    FWIW, when I said "3 clicks" to do what you need to do, I meant from the main menu to anywhere.... not from deep within one menu to deep within another. Regardless, 4 clicks? Sorry, I was one off. ;)
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Wow, you really do seem to think that just because it's YOUR opinion that the E60 is ugly, we should all share that opinion lest we be deemed by you to have bad taste. We've gone back and forth on this for what seems like forever, but I just can't believe that you honesly think that all of us that do like the Bangle designs are trying to justify settling for the looks simply for the drive. You mention the M, but can't see that it was obviously designed with the E60 in mind given the similarities between the two. The dash looks very similar and the the body does as well. Whether or not you can believe it, I happen to love the way the E60 looks and that did play a part in the purchase decision. Obviously others feel the same way. If you want to just generalize us all by saying that we fell pray to the sirens' song of the performance and the prestige offered by the badge that's your choice. When it comes to why I bought it, you're just flat out wrong. Sorry if you have difficulty accepting that.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Heh. I've seen what Porsche options can add when I test drove the lot's only Carrera Cabrio. The amount of money for options in the interior could buy a Civic.

    To add my two cents to the rest of the current discussion, personally I dont think the 5 looks either that bad or that good. I'm not really moved in either direction by it. Then again, I dont think any car in the class is particularly amazing looking, so thats no slam against the BMW. What I cant get past is the interior, particularly with "tripple black" 5s, (black paint, black leather, black wood) that I've seen on the local BMW lot. Way too depressing. I like the A6 and GS interior better, but I'm rather surprised in that the techno-lux interior of the RL has really grown on me. With the wood steering wheel and wood shift knob, it looks very classy, I'd say up there with traditional Audi.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    As you said, the 20% higher sales figure that you speculated about is simply your opinion, based on nothing factual at all. Granted, there are many people turned off by the new designs (obviously), but I happen to agree with BMW's thinking that the E39 design was becoming dated and would have actually started declining in terms of sales (again, just my opinion based on nothing factual at all though BMW obviously shares that opinion). How could you say they "blew it" with the design if it's still outselling all of its competition except the E? For all the accolades the M seems to get it sure hasn't even approached E60 sales numbers eventhough it is cheaper. The E39 was great, but it was also boring in my opinion. Maybe you never heard complaints because it didn't either excite or bore most people. I would say that it appealed to more conservative buyers (not politically, but style-wise) without a doubt, but it didn't appeal to more progressive types. All I have to do is take my friends as a sample group to know this. The more conservative ones hate the new designs and the more progressive love it.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    I personally like both the E39 and E60 styles. Both are very different, but I have taken a liking to both. When new styling appears for any car, there are always grumblings. A lot of those grumblings fade away as the styling tends to grow on people. Myself included.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Hey, it's just my opinion Rich. I'm criticizing the cars, not the people who buy them. Furthermore, my cars have been criticized ad infinitum, doesn't bother me in the least. It's aesthetic philosophy, very hard to qualify and quantify. I enjoy discussing styling, it's what design men do. I wholeheartedly admit that there are people who like E60... just have to stir the pot a little... goad them into saying what they like about it beyond eye-of-the-beholder. Lastly, I'm a BMW fan. Have been for a lo-o-ong time. Maybe deep down inside I am looking for someone to come up with a reason that will help me conquer my disdain for the new styling. I encourage you and appreciate the fact that you keep trying, providing plenty of retort to my sometimes querulous posts. Indeed, I am convinced that you like the styling. Enjoy!

  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    It's an interesting theory, Rich, but conservative taste v. progressive doesn't really cover it. The E39 was almost universally accepted by critics (automotive consumer and industry press) as a benchmark of sedan styling. The same has not been expressed about the E60.

    Doesn't mean any of us think less of it as a driving platform, and certainly the Bangle cues are endearing to some, and most certainly the car is successful, but a world standard of automotive styling I really don't think it can be called.

    Frankly, I don't think we're currently in a great phase of automotive design. To me it feels like most manufacturers are casting about for a direction to pursue the future. Most, IMO, are not experiencing great success. I feel sometimes like it's a return to the 80's, with the same insecurities being expressed as styling strength cues. Witness the hard creases and expressive cut lines and general lack of cohesion and flow across almost all brands. This is an industry searching for the next big thing.

    I have issues even with those I consider the best at styling. We've all mentioned the Auto Union retro schnozzola on Audi's otherwise clean and concise styling. That's a serious WTH in my book...
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    M or 5, which is the ugliest of the litter? There's one thing they can agree on though. According to autospies, they're tops in their segment for resale values.

    In the luxury coupe, Corvette and G35C are tied for tops.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    The world according to Kelly Blue Book for 2006:

    Which luxury sport sedans have the best resale values?

    BMW 5 series
    Infiniti G35 and M45

    Overall which brand has the best resale value? It is a tie between BMW and Mini!;;OH085;&44092&&BestResaleAwards;Autoshow/2006_CA- - - &

    So it appear Bangle has no negative impact on resale values. Though I think the resale market will be more harsh on my choice of colors, black on black :cry:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Wow! The new LS is my 545i with an L on the front! Great compliment to Chris Bangle with his bold and sexy E60 design!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    You have reached a new low in presumptuousness telling me and all the other thousands of E60 owners that there is no way we can love the new E60 design.
    I not only love it but give kudos to BMW for having the courage for going with such an original, aggressive and bold design.
    The fact that so many people are talking about it, to me shows that the design has really achieved something.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    "Wow! The new LS is my 545i with an L on the front! Great compliment to Chris Bangle with his bold and sexy E60 design!"

    Look directly at the front of that Lexus LS Isn't it closer to the RL than the e60?

    Lexus LS---

    BMW e60-- - 0M5&image=bmw_m5_e601.jpg&img=&tt=

    Acura RL---

    also hpowders...Bangle is unique in the industry and He even comes from a Great Area of our country (Wi. Native) but there are some BMW owners that are working hard to get him out. What is with this petition? :sick:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    From what I have read, BMW seems to be 1000% behind Bangle, but who really knows what goes on behind closed doors?

    Not to change the subject, but it will be interesting to see how close the 2007 LS actually resembles all those stimulating spy photos currently circulating. All in all, this could finally be an exciting design from Lexus. I hope they show some real courage for a change and see it through.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    Actually, while still supporting him, BMW reined in pretty hard on ol' Chris from everything I've read since the intro of the 7.

    Speaking of new, Autoweek has a spot on Honda's latest concepts. There's one (briefly glimpsed) that appears to be a larger sedan that's almost "Ultra-Cab-Forward". That looked pretty good.

    Short hoods, minimum overhangs, wide stances and deep greenhouses make me happy; IOW, the antithesis of current design thrust! Some of the future concepts just now emerging are much more to my tastes than what's new on the lots today.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Not true. Chris Bangle is in charge of the design team now which is certainly supporting him. I read an interesting article about him in the Harvard Business Journal. There isn't a design the designers create that he doesn't see and approve/shoot down. The article talked a lot about how he runs interference for the designers because the engineers are often hard on them which he feels stiffles their creativity. Think about it, if they were really unhappy with him after the 7 (which is now the best-selling 7 ever designed) why wouldn't they simply fire him? I mean, people freaked when the new 7 came out, but bought it in record numbers. I think the same goes for the 5. While the group of people that dislikes the E60 may be vocal, I doubt they represent a majority. If they did, BMW wouldn't sell so many E60's. From what I've seen, they people most offended by the new designs are people that own the E39 or really loved it.
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