I'm currently looking at E 350 . The dealer said the nav system is hard to come by. I've noticed that they may have been recalled at some point. Anyone with any info on the nav system?? Good Bad indifferent???
I got to drive numerous 525i's in several generations, none of them can be considered performance sedans with a straight face when family sedans routinely our-power them.
The market place evolves over time . . . if GS350 and M37 are not in that short list, does that mean they do not belong when they come out? Does the short list also mean the new STS does not qualify because it is not in there? Also, why are the German offerings listed in general model ranges but Japanese offerings listed in specific models?
The only consistent qualification would be three objective qualification tests: (1) midsize sedan (2) luxury (either by content or cost) (3) performance (both accelearation and handling have to qualify)
Current M3's do not pass the first test because they are neither midsize nor sedans. . . as 3 series gets larger, especially witht the introduction of 1 series under it, 3 series may qualify in the future, but not yet.
5 series wagons do not qualify because they are not sedans.
ES and 525i do not qualify because neither have the performance level to justify their inclusion . . . nor for that matter on cost basis when you examine the actual monthly cost or purchase price whichever is lower (i.e. the most likely way they are acquired).
That's the problem I have with the original list of Feb sales numbers. BMW 5 series is more than double the runner-up because more than half of all 5 series sold are not even in this luxury performance category, either by performance or by luxury (cost basis). If we were to include 525i in the sales numbers, we may as well bring in ES, G and TL; not that I think they should be included, but all (including 525i and wagons) should be excluded.
There is certainly logic to that argument. RL is a car with performance comparable to 545i and price comparable to 530i. TL is the car with price comparable to (or a little lower than) 525i and performance comparable to (or a little superior to) 530i. RL and TL have comparable interior size; neither have wagon variants.
Actually, all recent Buicks have failed their rear impact tests as conducted by the IIHS. Detroit has yet to figure out how to properly design a seat. If safety were more important than everything else about the car, I'd be thinking about Volvo or Subaru, not Buick.
Yeah, I agree... putting big large hunks of steel around you is not any safer. Just look at those HUUUUGE SUVs that don't get good ratings. If it was all about size and weight, they'd win in a landslide... but they don't.
Actually, rather than Volvo, I'd look at VW and Audi. They had a bunch of models make the IIHS Top 10 list.
Volvo is living off an old reputation. Granted, their cars' safety ratings are not bad, by any means. But they are certainly no where close to being better than everyone else anymore. They didn't even get any models in the IIHS Top 10.
Considering that a 16yr old new driver is probably going to be driving automatic, it's doubtful a 525i is any faster than your ES300 in 0-60.
I can sympathize with the argument that a new driver is best served with an old non-turbo Volvo RWD wagon barely making 100hp and too slow to get into accident; however, such a Volvo lacks many modern safety features, and is a bear in the snow.
As for cost consideration, in many parts of the country, it costs $200-$250/mo to insure a 16yr old new driver, even if his car is a used Yugo. If you are already tossing away that much every month in insurance, what's another $450/mo for a 525i? That's the thinking I went through when buying my first car. . . although it was a used 535i, it cost me about $400/mo in repair bills in the first two years . . . leasing cost more back then . . . nowadays with 525i at about $460/mo, it only makes sense to get a new one. Although as a soon-to-be parent, I would probably get my kid a fully loaded Highlander (only way to get all the airbags) or stripped RX or X5 in the same price range just to be safer in a side collision with SUV's.
It's interesting to note how many posters automaticly associate BMW with speed. The reality is that I can't even think of a single current luxury car slower than a 525i with automatic (is the S-type 3.0 still made anymore?) If one is inclined to believe that premium cars have better safety features (used to be true), 525i is probably as slow as they get. OTOH, IMHO, today's loaded Camcords are just as safe as 525i's in collisions of the same speed; but they are also quicker and more powerful than 525i's as well. Every argument used against getting a BMW in regard to speed can probably be turn upside down here. 525i probably represents the lowest horse-power-to-weight and airbags ratio on the market. All the family sedans with as many airbags and vehicle stability controls are actually more powerful, much more powerful in most cases. Like I said, 525i is a family sedan with a BMW badge.
Another hidden advantage of giving the kid a 525i is that he will learn humiliation the first time he races the bimmer against classmate's Integra or Mustang. He will learn that the creatures of the multi-faceted world are not neatly lined up in a single line from the best to the worst. The most expensive does not mean the best in every way . . . a valuable lesson that took me owning two BMW's to learn ;-)
Also, don't forget Saab. 9-3 is at the very top of that IIHS ranking for mid-size cars; 9-5 shares the same platform as the 9-3, only bigger. I got the 9-5 after my second BMW 5 series was totalled by a truck plowing into its side.
I have no quarrel with virtually anything you said.
The definition ON THIS INTERNET WEB LOG is what it is.
If we all agree that we will ONLY discuss, for example, cars with 250+ HP, X number of speeds in the transmission, certain levels of content and so on, I am certain within the latitude we are provided here we can continue along nicely.
I do not know if over 50% of the 5 series are 525's (where did you find that info?) -- I don't know where that info is offered, even. Another thing I would like to know is how many of the BMW 5's are x-drive models, how many of the Infiniti M's are X models, M45's etc., how many E classes are 4Matics, how many A6's w/V8's, and so on to better determine what is really going on in this market space.
For the time being, the BMW 525 is a member of the Premium class or as edmunds has dubbed it, the LPS class.
We may debate the merits of its continued inclusion in the class, but until the models are segregated beyond what they are currently (which is really not at all), well it is what it is.
Audi has done very well recently, but they still cant match Volvo and Subaru when it comes to the rear test. Every Volvo model aced the head restraint test. Not a single Audi, not even the '06 cars, can match that. Granted the "acceptable" score that the Audis get is still much better than most other cars. I would argue however that in a real world crash, Volvo would be just as safe as Audi.
"9-5 shares the same platform as the 9-3, only bigger."
Thats not true at all. The 9-3 is based on the Malibu\G6 Epsilon platform. The 9-5 is based on an old Opel design, and dates all the way back to 1999, years before the Malibu and G6 existed. Mostly because of its age, the 9-5s crash scores are mediocre.
IIRC, 9-5 is based on an earlier version of Epsilon platform. The current 9-5 and 9-3 are incredibly similar in their platform underpinning. IIHS scores on the 9-5 reflects the fact that the current 9-5 have no airbags for the rear seat occupants whereas most competitions including the 9-3's do. When you listen to O'Neil explain the scoring, you'd realize that the 9-5 platform itself and front-seat occupant fare just as well as in 9-3 (which is ranked at the very top for midsize previum sedans) in all the crash tests, thanks to the platform structure, front seat airbags (including torso bags), pendulum B-pillar and anti-whiplash head rest. 9-5 in fact had one of the top scores in the Euro NCap tests if not _the_ top score.
. I would argue however that in a real world crash, Volvo would be just as safe as Audi.
I would say that in real world crashes Volvos are probably a little better than Audis. Just a smidge when it comes certain types of accidents. You really can't go wrong with a Volvo, Mercedes, Audi or Saab when it comes to safety IMO.
Good find. I was wrong. M5 sales are going gang busters! After factoring out M5 sales, which are not covered in this forum, 525i and 525xi account for close to 40% of 5 series sales, with 530 accounting for 40% and 545/550 roughly 20%. I must have been thinking of I6 as per centage of 5 series; my bad.
Volvo is living off an old reputation. Granted, their cars' safety ratings are not bad, by any means. But they are certainly no where close to being better than everyone else anymore. They didn't even get any models in the IIHS Top 10.
There are a total of 7 current Volvo models (not counting the C70), but only two have been completely tested by the IIHS. All the remaining models remain potential award winners - i.e, none have been eliminated by the tests performed to date.
A much bigger point is that 3 simple crash tests can provide only a glimpse of what occurs in the complex variety of real-world crashes. Crash tests are simplified to live within technology, costs and other constraints. And there are far too few tests.
The NHTSA has proposed changes in side impact testing, including a new 75-degree pole test - the world's first gov't/3-party angled pole test. It simulates crashes into things such as trees and utility poles, which are fairly common and quite dangerous.
The IIHS objects to specific details but is generally in favor of the new test. Contradictory isn't it, given that the IIHS claims in effect that its single test already tells us which cars are safest in side-impact crashes?
The NHTSA subjected a number of cars to the new test. These cars were already certified for sale in the US; so they all passed the existing 90-degree tests. Some of the cars failed the test miserably because the head curtain airbags failed to deploy - hence massive head injuries.
The NHTSA's conclusion is that the crash sensors were so finely tuned for 90-degree crashes that they failed to detect a 30-mph crash into a pole at 75 degrees!
This is the difference between building cars to pass a few crash tests,and building cars based on observations from numerous real-life crashes. Volvo's focus is on the latter and they have been analyzing individual accidents in detail for over 35 years at an average rate of 1000/year.
Let me translate what I said in terms of the time it takes to reach 60mph . I read two reviews where a 325xi Touring reaches 60mph in 8 seconds. I can just imagine what a 525xi achieves and I am sure it is not that impressive.
Having said that there is more to a car than 5 to 60, but if I want to pay the $$ for BMW performance I do expect something that will be superior to mainstream or even economy cars.
I dont think that is expecting too much. But it appears 35 percent of 5 series buyers do not have such high expectations. And as mentioned in Seinfeld: "There's nothing wrong with that, really"!
Get behind the wheel of a 525 xi 6pseed and run it around.
No I never did run one around. And maybe it would change my opinion, but most likely with 99.9999963% certainty I will not be impressed with the 525. And "there is nothing wrong with that too" :P
IMO I would rather save my money and buy a 330 over a 525 any day.
I know that the '08 9-5 and 9-3 are going to converge on to a single "Epsilon 2" structure. That means a Jaguar-like 9 year run for the 9-5. Things arent going to be good for Saab for the next few years.
"I read two reviews where a 325xi Touring reaches 60mph in 8 seconds. I can just imagine what a 525xi achieves and I am sure it is not that impressive."
Hmmm, there is definetly something screwy with BMW's numbers regarding the differences between the E90 and the E60. Assuming that I've gotten the numbers correct I've discovered the following differences (or lack thereof):
525i vs. 325i: - 3428 vs. 3285 (143 pounds heavier) - 7.3 vs. 6.7 (0.6 seconds slower to 60)
525xi vs. 325xi: - 3627 vs. 3560 (67 pounds heavier) - 7.9 vs. 7.1 (0.8 seconds slower to 60)
530i vs. 330i: - 3472 vs. 3417 (55 pounds heavier) - 6.4 vs. 6.1 (0.3 seconds slower to 60)
530xi vs. 330xi: - 3638 vs. 3627 (67 pounds heavier) - 6.6 vs. 6.3 (0.3 seconds slower to 60)
What I find interesting here is the fact that while the 530i and 530xi are only 55 and 67 pounds respectively heavier than their 3-Series siblings, and only three tenths of a second slower to sixty, the x25 numbers are kind of all over the map. After all, given that a 525i outweighs a 325i by 143 pounds and is only six tenths slower to sixty, one would assume that the acceleration difference between the "xi" versions would be much narrower given a weight difference of only 67 pounds. Yup, that's what I would assume, however, according to BMW; the 525xi is eight tenths slower to sixty. What gives? Answer (probably): Gearing.
I think you are correct, the answer in part is FDR, final drive ratio.
Given the price differences and lease sub-venting, at least thus far and in the US and in Cincinnati, I can see little reason to go for the 525 even with the stick shift.
You know, though, I got the 3.2 Audi thinking it was going to be less than every other car in the class. Even though the differences between my personal two finalists were under one second, I do note that the A6 3.2 is what I would call adequate.
So I drove the STS V6 RWD and the 530i (both with the automatics) -- the Audi feels and sounds quicker and more V8 like.
Now, at just under 15K miles, the Audi is, actually, plenty quick. But I do miss my 2.7T allroad with the 6spd manual and I long for the rush (but I know it was not as quick) of my 1995 S6 Audi.
My current 3.2 makes me miss the 4.2 a lot less than I would ever have imagined.
The 530xi with the manual would have to be THE choice for a new LPS car -- the fact that the vast majority are autos is confusing, for if you test a 530xi and have test driven an Audi A6 3.2 Sline and both are automatic trans, the Audi clearly would be the sportier, more performance LPS car of the two.
But OHHHHHH that stick shift.
I made my wife a bet -- if she finds a 530xi with a stick shift, I will give her, on the spot a hundred bucks.
Saw three of them today -- my money clip remains full.
Saw a bunch of C class Mercedes (4 or 5 of them) ALL 4matics which means all automatics, BTW.)
Prediction: the car mfrgs have to be selling significant numbers of AWD versions. They will, eventually, all offer real sport packages.
I'm hoping GM selling the Saab brand to Toyota, a la Fuji Industry / Subaru, so that I can service my two cars at the same dealership some day . . . well, I might not keep either of them that long, with kids on the way etc.. Saab used to have BMW-like sporty reputation back in the 80's, then the company owners got greedy, decided to milk the I4 for as long as they could even after the displacement maxed out at 2.3 liter, progressively turning up the turbo pressure, instead of engineering for a new engine block altogether. Hopefully the same thing is not now being played out at BMW. Ironicly, Saab sales is setting new records in the past few years after a decade-long slump . . . probably having something to do with GMAC lease subsidies and the old joke about GM usually get all the kinks worked on a car model only after a few years then promptly terminate the production . . . in the case of 9-5, the same basic platform indeed has been going on for ever. It's one of the most reliable European cars if not the most reliable in the surveys. In my personally experience, it's been far more reliable than any of the other European cars that I have ever had, but still have nits from time to time that the Highlander does not have. No dealer visits besides oil changes for the last couple years on either car; had to change a head light bulb on the Saab myself because I already had a stash from earlier experience ;-)
According to GM, they have absolutely no intention of selling. GM had about 10% less of a financial stake in FHI\Subaru as Ford does in Mazda, so it was simple enough to just dump the shares. Saab is a totally different story. They are as much a part of the GM empire at this point as is Opel or Holden, not the kind of thing they can just cut loose because of poor performance.
Whats unfortunate, is that Saab will most likely become (it basically already is) just another anonymous GM franchise, lost in the rebadge shuffle. I can see it now, a Saabalt, Saaquinox, Saailblazer, and Saalibu. Why not have a minivan?
The last Saab version of an ultimate driving machine that I drove was the 9-3 Viggen. What a monster that was, even with torque severly cut in first and second gear, it had the worst torque steer of any car that I've ever driven. It makes the TL 6-speed seem like a kitten by comparison.
If you prefer to drive a manual transmission, then the decision is easy, get the 5er. If all you want is an automatic, then I'm unable to offer an opinion as I've yet to learn to drive a car without three pedals under the dash. ;-)
no one as yet give me a clear answer on which would be better to own.
Two of the most critically important questions that every man faces throughout his lifetime are:
1) What is the Meaning of Life? 2) What Car should I Buy?
The two question above can never be clearly answered by anyone but yourself. Other people can only provide you with suggestions but never ever clear answers.
My suggestion: If automatic then get the Infiniti M35. If manual then my suggestion would be identical to Shipo's.
The clear answer is what car do you yourself love driving the most?
My own experience is a bit different, as my first car in 1990 was a 190 E 2.6 , which 160 HP were considered as a lot at that time in my country. This was easily the triple of the average HP and price of the average first car.
It seems the trust my parents placed in me at that time was not betrayed as the car and the driver got through without any scratch.
My view is that giving a nice car to a first time driver may have some good aspects, because he/she maybe likely to be extra cautious with a cherished car than with a wreck.
If you will only consider an automatic and your choice is a 525i, not a 525xi vs an A6 3.2 quattro with the SLine package (and on both models, I assume the common option grouping, such as Premium package, perhaps technology grouping and hopefully sat navigation (which I would argue for my son or daughter, should be considered in part for its safety component) AND voice command (and pushbutton start, too, I didn't forget.)
The 525i (or xi for that matter) when equipped with the automatic is far less "spirited" a performer than the A6 3.2. The SLine package is a real sports suspension and makes the best out of the Audi's assets and minimizes the effects of one of its minor shortcomings (it is nose heavy, when compared with the Bimmer, that is.)
Under the broadest of ranges of driving (normal, standard, not on the race track, that is) the SLine equipped Audi with its greater power, AWD and sport suspension, wheels and tires will run away from the 525i (with or without sport options which if you were looking at the xi wouldn't include any performance improvements whatsoever.)
The A6 is a little bigger if that is important.
The A6 will be AWD which can be a plus in lower coefficient of friction circumstances (er, rain and snow, e.g.)
The A6 will be (in cash) a better "bargain."
The A6 will be a less common car than the BMW (there are 3 times as many BMW 5's sold as A6's, i.e.)
If you will not consider a stick shift version, period, end of story -- an A6 3.2 SLine would be the pick between these two cars as you have outlined.
Since I have no clue what the real budget is, I can tell you one additional data point. It is quite possible to configure a 525 that costs the same as an A6 SLine 4.2 V8.
If you want a "very well balanced Audi" with a great suspension the 3.2 is supreme.
Footnote: the BMW 5's have much to recommend them. And, literally the Audi A6 does have a heavier nose than does the BMW 525. However, I can think of no time when these two cars when driven on normal, standard, US highways and streets that the Audis nose heaviness will be a problem especially when you factor in AWD and the Sport Suspension that comes with the SLine.
Recommendation: get the Audi A6 3.2 quattro SLine.
Question #1: why won't you consider the stick shift? :confuse:
Question #2: the two cars under consideration were/are the 525i (not xi) and the A6 3.2 quattro SLine, correct?
I didn't say I wouldn't give a nice car to a first time driver; to the contrary, I said I would. My 92 ES is no beater. It has spent its whole life (until I bought the 5er) in the garage, and I have treated it well.
What I won't give to a novice is a powerhouse that might be too much car to handle. This does not mean I don't trust my daughter. It means I remember what it was like to be a teenager, and I understand that even the wimpiest car is a deadly weapon under the right (wrong?) circumstances.
In my book, buying a brand new luxury performance car for a teenager is an ill-advised overindulgence.
no one as yet give me a clear answer on which would be better to own.
But I think many people did give you their advise.... Drive both and decide for yourself. The two cars are different, and some people like Car A and some like Car B. You can't choose a car based on what people tell you. Choose for yourself.
None of us actually knows the circumstances pertaining to the teenager we have been, sincerely I think, trying to advise.
It seems, however, that for most of us "earning" an LPS car is "part of the fun." There are no really good reasons to have an LPS car anymore than there are good reasons to have a Tag watch or Prada shoes or -- fill-in-the-blank Lux item.
We went to Venice, IT with another couple, last September. These folks are in their early 50's as are we. Both my wife and my friend's wife are lawyers. My friend's wife bought a Gucci purse, on sale, for $2,000. It isn't very big -- but it will hold her most prized possession, her BlackBerry -- and it has a nice silver (I assume REAL) chain on it. What do I know from purses, it looks OK to me, but I couldn't see $2,000 for it, no matter what.
Yet, in my shirt pocket is a MontBlanc ball point pen with a rose-gold clasp and a tiny tiny tiny diamond at the top of the clasp -- and then there's the literal top of the pen, which is mother of pearl (the traditional MontBlanc "star" or snow cap) -- the pen was $675. I have had it probably for 6 or 7 years. I like it. I get refills at Staples or Office Max (MontBlanc refills, but you get the point.)
Who am I to suggest someone cannot or should not "splurge" if they have earned it?
Yet, I do share your concern that while the parent may have earned it that the son (in this case) probably has not earned enough to afford a $50,000+ car with his own money. But, you know, we could be wrong.
Life can be easy, sometimes. Getting to the stage of being able to "overindulge" myself with an LPS car has not always been easy -- but I would be fibbing if I said I walked uphill both ways to/from school in the snow and sacrificed and suffered. My parents paid for my tuition for my Bachelor's degree -- but nothing else. Beyond that, I had to pay for my Master's degree and all the stuff that it takes to get oneself set up to be on track to spend MY money for an LPS car.
Perhaps our younger soon to be LPS owner too has gotten himself to this point, through both pluck and luck -- again none of us know the circumstances.
My concern would be, in real life, whatever that means, "things don't often come that easily" (unless perhaps your dad has the initials "DT.")
I hope our youngest (?) poster continues to participate.
I'll tell you one thing, even if I could have had the Submariner I wear every day or the President I take out for special occasions as a 15 year old kid, I dont think I would want them. I would feel pretty rediculous.
For the price of a stripper 5, a 330i or IS350 could be loaded to the gills. Is the space of an A6 really necessary? I know I didnt have any clients to drive around when I was 15.
If it were me though, I would be very worried about a 1992 car's lack of basically any modern safety features. Does it even have a passenger side front airbag? After seeing all of the reports showing cars without side airbags failing their side impact tests there is no way I would want my kid (if I had one) in a car without at least front side airbags and curtains, which even the Civic has now.
I'm sure that if a 92 ES was tested using current IIHS standards, it would probably fail the frontal test, and would definitely fail the side and rear tests.
"I'll tell you one thing, even if I could have had the Submariner I wear every day or the President I take out for special occasions as a 15 year old kid, I dont think I would want them. I would feel pretty rediculous."
Pretty funny. Back in, ummm, 1973 I got "bumped" by a pickup truck while riding my bike down the road. The bump caused me to leave a fair amount of clothing, skin, blood, handlebar tape, steel and other bike metal AND the face of my favorite Timex watch in a long streak down the blacktop. Oddly enough, the thing that I was most upset about was the watch as I had saved for quite a while to buy it in the first place.
A friend of mine said, "Here, have my old watch, it's kind of ugly and doesn't have a day/date function or anything but at least it's a watch." I gratefully accepted it and began saving for another Timex.
Twenty years later I came across a box of stuff from back when I was in High School and decided to poke through it before I tossed it in the trash. My (then) lady friend was teasing me about going down memory lane and was suggesting that I should just "Throw the damn thing out" without even looking in it.
"Hurrmph!" I thought to myself, and continued poking around the bottom of the box. That's when I found the old watch that was given to me as my hold over between my two Timex watches. Funny thing, this one ended in an "x" too. "What the hell is a Rolex doing in here?" I exclaimed.
"Oh you're so full if it. Let me see that." I handed it over to her and she nearly fell off of the chair that she was sitting on. ;-)
I had it appraised and it turned out to be a pre-WWII Rolex Oyster-Perpetual worth about $3,000.
I further agree..Great story...Further when I was young, around sixteen or so...my friend was given a Porsche...Back then it wasn`t nearly so expensive, and neither were Rolexs....Man was I jealous, but as he and I were close, the car was almost as though I owned it also...We had such good times....I hope our young poster also has that type of experience...First time is the best, and it only happens once...Tony ps Life catches up
my dad isnt trying to spoil me. the fact is that he wants me to have a nice big car. he wont give me something like the m5 or s4 lol. but he will give me a nice car that has a 215-255 hp engine. and anyways i am a good driver. i have been friving since i was 6. i dont think that i will be crashing the car much. and anyways someone said that i will look stupid in sucha nice car in my school parking lot. but the fact of the matter is that my schools paring lot has the nicest cars on the orads(kids parking lot only) but these cars would looke average in the parking lot.
I think a 200 + HP engine is fair enough and won't disappoint for a a first car. And with current US Speed limits, This won't be much of use.
Your words seems to show to care a lot about what other think about yourself. Buying a car is an important step in a man's life, so it has to please to you first. If you buy it depending upon the other's view only/mostly, you may regret it later.
Here are links to two contrasting opinions: Pro-DSG view against the Pro-Slushbox vieew. Both are interesting to read but IMO both opinions are wrong since the manual approach is the best approach.
You're right, they're both wrong as they both miss the key point of how a true manual transmission is the only transmission that is fully 100% linked into the consciousness (or better said, the sub-conscious) of the driver. Once a manual transmission is mastered, all the driver has to do is subconsciously think about the type of shift that they want and "Presto", it happens. Until somebody develops a neural connection to the thought processes of a human driver, the automatic will always play second fiddle, and even then it won't be as much fun. ;-)
I know I'm late to the game, but I throw something out there too.
If your dad is going to buy you a 50,000 car, have him buy two. The first one WILL get destroyed. If you survive the first one, you can drive the second. I'm not being flippant. I'm being a realist.
For a 16yo, go with something like the new Civic Si. It's quick, easily modifiable both inside and out, is reliable and seems to do well in crashes. But the vehicle is small enough that a little bit of healthy fear/defensive driving would be in order. There are a LOT of forums on here for cars better suited to that age group, NOT an LPS.
Heck, if I was 16 now and my parents would buy me anything, a Honda S2000, or that new Saturn convertible might get my attention. Perhaps even the Scion line would warrant a look see.
However, when I was 16, I was totally totally into cars, having subscriptions to whatever car mags were out at that time.
No way, no way, no way, would I have taken anything -- if given such a choice -- other than some pretty high zoot cars from both the US and Europe.
I recall liking Porsches and Mercedes and a fully decked out V8 and power everything Dodge Charger (which in some ways would be the LPS car of my youth.)
Heck, if it were offered, I would probably have taken the original TV Batmobile. And, I also remember the Green Hornet's Chrylser Imperial as a fave.
But, when I saw the huge V8 equipped Olds Toronado, I think I had an epiphany -- the first couple of years of THAT car were just what I wanted.
I would have killed myself in that thing, no doubt.
I drove a VW beetle and then a Plymouth Valiant (both with a stick shift.) Then I got the hand me down Chrysler Newport with the huge V8 -- the thing would lay rubber like crazy. Ahhhhhh Torque Flite 3 speed automatic with pushbutton controls a 4Track (not 8Track) stereo tape player and AM Radio with a front AND rear speaker.
I used to take the air cleaner off the thing, fill it up with $.25 per gallon "Swifty" gasoline and floor it just to hear that Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! sound from under the hood.
I was such a nerd.
Probably still am.
You are correct in your conclusions, otherwise.
Our soon to be LPS driver apparently already got shot down for the Audi S4 -- trying to devolve, I guess that would be my choice too. Dad is probably rightly concerned that the S4 would be trashed and crashed and that prying the son off the pavement with a spatula is something he would rather pass on.
A powerhouse like the E55 or M5 is definitely a bad idea for a teen. However, I dont think something like a 525i or A6 3.2 is so bad. These cars are not really any faster than a V6 Accord or Camry, so its not like excess power is making them dangerous.
Also, if something were to go wrong, these cars are about as safe as they come, definitely a lot more so than any S2000 or Scion coupe.
Until somebody develops a neural connection to the thought processes of a human driver, the automatic will always play second fiddle, and even then it won't be as much fun
More spooky than fun. It would be like owning a car with telepathy. :surprise:
Zetsche said Mercedes’ benchmark for productivity and quality is Lexus, the luxury division of Japanese auto-maker Toyota.
Talk about a humble confession, especially from a Marque that had a history of being the benchmark for quality.
Some may view such a confession as a weakness, but I view it as a MB strength. Juergen Schremp seemed to be oblivious to MB's problems. At least Zetsche is fully aware of what MB is faced with. That in itself is positive
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The market place evolves over time . . . if GS350 and M37 are not in that short list, does that mean they do not belong when they come out? Does the short list also mean the new STS does not qualify because it is not in there? Also, why are the German offerings listed in general model ranges but Japanese offerings listed in specific models?
The only consistent qualification would be three objective qualification tests:
(1) midsize sedan
(2) luxury (either by content or cost)
(3) performance (both accelearation and handling have to qualify)
Current M3's do not pass the first test because they are neither midsize nor sedans. . . as 3 series gets larger, especially witht the introduction of 1 series under it, 3 series may qualify in the future, but not yet.
5 series wagons do not qualify because they are not sedans.
ES and 525i do not qualify because neither have the performance level to justify their inclusion . . . nor for that matter on cost basis when you examine the actual monthly cost or purchase price whichever is lower (i.e. the most likely way they are acquired).
That's the problem I have with the original list of Feb sales numbers. BMW 5 series is more than double the runner-up because more than half of all 5 series sold are not even in this luxury performance category, either by performance or by luxury (cost basis). If we were to include 525i in the sales numbers, we may as well bring in ES, G and TL; not that I think they should be included, but all (including 525i and wagons) should be excluded.
Yeah, I agree... putting big large hunks of steel around you is not any safer. Just look at those HUUUUGE SUVs that don't get good ratings. If it was all about size and weight, they'd win in a landslide... but they don't.
Actually, rather than Volvo, I'd look at VW and Audi. They had a bunch of models make the IIHS Top 10 list.
Volvo is living off an old reputation. Granted, their cars' safety ratings are not bad, by any means. But they are certainly no where close to being better than everyone else anymore. They didn't even get any models in the IIHS Top 10.
I can sympathize with the argument that a new driver is best served with an old non-turbo Volvo RWD wagon barely making 100hp and too slow to get into accident; however, such a Volvo lacks many modern safety features, and is a bear in the snow.
As for cost consideration, in many parts of the country, it costs $200-$250/mo to insure a 16yr old new driver, even if his car is a used Yugo. If you are already tossing away that much every month in insurance, what's another $450/mo for a 525i? That's the thinking I went through when buying my first car. . . although it was a used 535i, it cost me about $400/mo in repair bills in the first two years . . . leasing cost more back then . . . nowadays with 525i at about $460/mo, it only makes sense to get a new one. Although as a soon-to-be parent, I would probably get my kid a fully loaded Highlander (only way to get all the airbags) or stripped RX or X5 in the same price range just to be safer in a side collision with SUV's.
It's interesting to note how many posters automaticly associate BMW with speed. The reality is that I can't even think of a single current luxury car slower than a 525i with automatic (is the S-type 3.0 still made anymore?) If one is inclined to believe that premium cars have better safety features (used to be true), 525i is probably as slow as they get. OTOH, IMHO, today's loaded Camcords are just as safe as 525i's in collisions of the same speed; but they are also quicker and more powerful than 525i's as well. Every argument used against getting a BMW in regard to speed can probably be turn upside down here. 525i probably represents the lowest horse-power-to-weight and airbags ratio on the market. All the family sedans with as many airbags and vehicle stability controls are actually more powerful, much more powerful in most cases. Like I said, 525i is a family sedan with a BMW badge.
Another hidden advantage of giving the kid a 525i is that he will learn humiliation the first time he races the bimmer against classmate's Integra or Mustang. He will learn that the creatures of the multi-faceted world are not neatly lined up in a single line from the best to the worst. The most expensive does not mean the best in every way . . . a valuable lesson that took me owning two BMW's to learn ;-)
The definition ON THIS INTERNET WEB LOG is what it is.
If we all agree that we will ONLY discuss, for example, cars with 250+ HP, X number of speeds in the transmission, certain levels of content and so on, I am certain within the latitude we are provided here we can continue along nicely.
I do not know if over 50% of the 5 series are 525's (where did you find that info?) -- I don't know where that info is offered, even. Another thing I would like to know is how many of the BMW 5's are x-drive models, how many of the Infiniti M's are X models, M45's etc., how many E classes are 4Matics, how many A6's w/V8's, and so on to better determine what is really going on in this market space.
For the time being, the BMW 525 is a member of the Premium class or as edmunds has dubbed it, the LPS class.
We may debate the merits of its continued inclusion in the class, but until the models are segregated beyond what they are currently (which is really not at all), well it is what it is.
Thats not true at all. The 9-3 is based on the Malibu\G6 Epsilon platform. The 9-5 is based on an old Opel design, and dates all the way back to 1999, years before the Malibu and G6 existed. Mostly because of its age, the 9-5s crash scores are mediocre.
I would say that in real world crashes Volvos are probably a little better than Audis. Just a smidge when it comes certain types of accidents. You really can't go wrong with a Volvo, Mercedes, Audi or Saab when it comes to safety IMO.
M
The number of 525i sales is not even close to 50% of 5 series sales.
YTD Feb 2006 figures
525 sales 2963
Total 5 series sales 8839
525 percentage of sales =33.5 percent
Total 2005 Figures
525 sales 18906
Total 5 series sales 52722
525 percent of sales = 35.8 percent
Here is the link to the source of my figures:
2005
YTD 2006
There are a total of 7 current Volvo models (not counting the C70), but only two have been completely tested by the IIHS. All the remaining models remain potential award winners - i.e, none have been eliminated by the tests performed to date.
A much bigger point is that 3 simple crash tests can provide only a glimpse of what occurs in the complex variety of real-world crashes. Crash tests are simplified to live within technology, costs and other constraints. And there are far too few tests.
The NHTSA has proposed changes in side impact testing, including a new 75-degree pole test - the world's first gov't/3-party angled pole test. It simulates crashes into things such as trees and utility poles, which are fairly common and quite dangerous.
The IIHS objects to specific details but is generally in favor of the new test. Contradictory isn't it, given that the IIHS claims in effect that its single test already tells us which cars are safest in side-impact crashes?
The NHTSA subjected a number of cars to the new test. These cars were already certified for sale in the US; so they all passed the existing 90-degree tests. Some of the cars failed the test miserably because the head curtain airbags failed to deploy - hence massive head injuries.
The NHTSA's conclusion is that the crash sensors were so finely tuned for 90-degree crashes that they failed to detect a 30-mph crash into a pole at 75 degrees!
This is the difference between building cars to pass a few crash tests,and building cars based on observations from numerous real-life crashes. Volvo's focus is on the latter and they have been analyzing individual accidents in detail for over 35 years at an average rate of 1000/year.
How does that equate to being too slow?
Could we all please use the same language?
And here in the US even the speed is limited to 130mph is that not fast enough?
Get behind the wheel of a 525 xi 6pseed and run it around.
It is not as quick as the 530 but here in the Midwest it is still fast and quick enough.
BTW I am not suggesting I would buy one, despite this assertion.
Let me translate what I said in terms of the time it takes to reach 60mph . I read two reviews where a 325xi Touring reaches 60mph in 8 seconds. I can just imagine what a 525xi achieves and I am sure it is not that impressive.
Having said that there is more to a car than 5 to 60, but if I want to pay the $$ for BMW performance I do expect something that will be superior to mainstream or even economy cars.
I dont think that is expecting too much. But it appears 35 percent of 5 series buyers do not have such high expectations. And as mentioned in Seinfeld: "There's nothing wrong with that, really"!
Get behind the wheel of a 525 xi 6pseed and run it around.
No I never did run one around. And maybe it would change my opinion, but most likely with 99.9999963% certainty I will not be impressed with the 525. And "there is nothing wrong with that too" :P
IMO I would rather save my money and buy a 330 over a 525 any day.
Hmmm, there is definetly something screwy with BMW's numbers regarding the differences between the E90 and the E60. Assuming that I've gotten the numbers correct I've discovered the following differences (or lack thereof):
525i vs. 325i:
- 3428 vs. 3285 (143 pounds heavier)
- 7.3 vs. 6.7 (0.6 seconds slower to 60)
525xi vs. 325xi:
- 3627 vs. 3560 (67 pounds heavier)
- 7.9 vs. 7.1 (0.8 seconds slower to 60)
530i vs. 330i:
- 3472 vs. 3417 (55 pounds heavier)
- 6.4 vs. 6.1 (0.3 seconds slower to 60)
530xi vs. 330xi:
- 3638 vs. 3627 (67 pounds heavier)
- 6.6 vs. 6.3 (0.3 seconds slower to 60)
What I find interesting here is the fact that while the 530i and 530xi are only 55 and 67 pounds respectively heavier than their 3-Series siblings, and only three tenths of a second slower to sixty, the x25 numbers are kind of all over the map. After all, given that a 525i outweighs a 325i by 143 pounds and is only six tenths slower to sixty, one would assume that the acceleration difference between the "xi" versions would be much narrower given a weight difference of only 67 pounds. Yup, that's what I would assume, however, according to BMW; the 525xi is eight tenths slower to sixty. What gives? Answer (probably): Gearing.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Given the price differences and lease sub-venting, at least thus far and in the US and in Cincinnati, I can see little reason to go for the 525 even with the stick shift.
You know, though, I got the 3.2 Audi thinking it was going to be less than every other car in the class. Even though the differences between my personal two finalists were under one second, I do note that the A6 3.2 is what I would call adequate.
So I drove the STS V6 RWD and the 530i (both with the automatics) -- the Audi feels and sounds quicker and more V8 like.
Now, at just under 15K miles, the Audi is, actually, plenty quick. But I do miss my 2.7T allroad with the 6spd manual and I long for the rush (but I know it was not as quick) of my 1995 S6 Audi.
My current 3.2 makes me miss the 4.2 a lot less than I would ever have imagined.
The 530xi with the manual would have to be THE choice for a new LPS car -- the fact that the vast majority are autos is confusing, for if you test a 530xi and have test driven an Audi A6 3.2 Sline and both are automatic trans, the Audi clearly would be the sportier, more performance LPS car of the two.
But OHHHHHH that stick shift.
I made my wife a bet -- if she finds a 530xi with a stick shift, I will give her, on the spot a hundred bucks.
Saw three of them today -- my money clip remains full.
Saw a bunch of C class Mercedes (4 or 5 of them) ALL 4matics which means all automatics, BTW.)
Prediction: the car mfrgs have to be selling significant numbers of AWD versions. They will, eventually, all offer real sport packages.
Now, if BMW will only retain the stick.
http://shows.autospies.com/gallery/AS/audi-s6-lg/S6060053.jpg?undefined
http://www.autotrend.com/pic/8076.jpg
They can't get them as bright, yet, as Xenons, but they work fine for aux lighting like the fogs.
Insofar as the styling cues, well, you are right, but I dunno if it was inspired by AM.
Heck, for all I know, it might have been inspired by Night Rider.
Night Rider?
Or maybe it was Knight Rider, a tricked out Pontiac named "Kit?"
KIT
I'm so old. . . .
Whats unfortunate, is that Saab will most likely become (it basically already is) just another anonymous GM franchise, lost in the rebadge shuffle. I can see it now, a Saabalt, Saaquinox, Saailblazer, and Saalibu. Why not have a minivan?
The last Saab version of an ultimate driving machine that I drove was the 9-3 Viggen. What a monster that was, even with torque severly cut in first and second gear, it had the worst torque steer of any car that I've ever driven. It makes the TL 6-speed seem like a kitten by comparison.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Two of the most critically important questions that every man faces throughout his lifetime are:
1) What is the Meaning of Life?
2) What Car should I Buy?
The two question above can never be clearly answered by anyone but yourself. Other people can only provide you with suggestions but never ever clear answers.
My suggestion: If automatic then get the Infiniti M35. If manual then my suggestion would be identical to Shipo's.
The clear answer is what car do you yourself love driving the most?
I vote for the A6, if you really want an outside viewpoint, but your own feeling is the most important.
It seems the trust my parents placed in me at that time was not betrayed as the car and the driver got through without any scratch.
My view is that giving a nice car to a first time driver may have some good aspects, because he/she maybe likely to be extra cautious with a cherished car than with a wreck.
The 525i (or xi for that matter) when equipped with the automatic is far less "spirited" a performer than the A6 3.2. The SLine package is a real sports suspension and makes the best out of the Audi's assets and minimizes the effects of one of its minor shortcomings (it is nose heavy, when compared with the Bimmer, that is.)
Under the broadest of ranges of driving (normal, standard, not on the race track, that is) the SLine equipped Audi with its greater power, AWD and sport suspension, wheels and tires will run away from the 525i (with or without sport options which if you were looking at the xi wouldn't include any performance improvements whatsoever.)
The A6 is a little bigger if that is important.
The A6 will be AWD which can be a plus in lower coefficient of friction circumstances (er, rain and snow, e.g.)
The A6 will be (in cash) a better "bargain."
The A6 will be a less common car than the BMW (there are 3 times as many BMW 5's sold as A6's, i.e.)
If you will not consider a stick shift version, period, end of story -- an A6 3.2 SLine would be the pick between these two cars as you have outlined.
Since I have no clue what the real budget is, I can tell you one additional data point. It is quite possible to configure a 525 that costs the same as an A6 SLine 4.2 V8.
If you want a "very well balanced Audi" with a great suspension the 3.2 is supreme.
Footnote: the BMW 5's have much to recommend them. And, literally the Audi A6 does have a heavier nose than does the BMW 525. However, I can think of no time when these two cars when driven on normal, standard, US highways and streets that the Audis nose heaviness will be a problem especially when you factor in AWD and the Sport Suspension that comes with the SLine.
Recommendation: get the Audi A6 3.2 quattro SLine.
Question #1: why won't you consider the stick shift? :confuse:
Question #2: the two cars under consideration were/are the 525i (not xi) and the A6 3.2 quattro SLine, correct?
What I won't give to a novice is a powerhouse that might be too much car to handle. This does not mean I don't trust my daughter. It means I remember what it was like to be a teenager, and I understand that even the wimpiest car is a deadly weapon under the right (wrong?) circumstances.
In my book, buying a brand new luxury performance car for a teenager is an ill-advised overindulgence.
But I think many people did give you their advise.... Drive both and decide for yourself. The two cars are different, and some people like Car A and some like Car B. You can't choose a car based on what people tell you. Choose for yourself.
It seems, however, that for most of us "earning" an LPS car is "part of the fun." There are no really good reasons to have an LPS car anymore than there are good reasons to have a Tag watch or Prada shoes or -- fill-in-the-blank Lux item.
We went to Venice, IT with another couple, last September. These folks are in their early 50's as are we. Both my wife and my friend's wife are lawyers. My friend's wife bought a Gucci purse, on sale, for $2,000. It isn't very big -- but it will hold her most prized possession, her BlackBerry -- and it has a nice silver (I assume REAL) chain on it. What do I know from purses, it looks OK to me, but I couldn't see $2,000 for it, no matter what.
Yet, in my shirt pocket is a MontBlanc ball point pen with a rose-gold clasp and a tiny tiny tiny diamond at the top of the clasp -- and then there's the literal top of the pen, which is mother of pearl (the traditional MontBlanc "star" or snow cap) -- the pen was $675. I have had it probably for 6 or 7 years. I like it. I get refills at Staples or Office Max (MontBlanc refills, but you get the point.)
Who am I to suggest someone cannot or should not "splurge" if they have earned it?
Yet, I do share your concern that while the parent may have earned it that the son (in this case) probably has not earned enough to afford a $50,000+ car with his own money. But, you know, we could be wrong.
Life can be easy, sometimes. Getting to the stage of being able to "overindulge" myself with an LPS car has not always been easy -- but I would be fibbing if I said I walked uphill both ways to/from school in the snow and sacrificed and suffered. My parents paid for my tuition for my Bachelor's degree -- but nothing else. Beyond that, I had to pay for my Master's degree and all the stuff that it takes to get oneself set up to be on track to spend MY money for an LPS car.
Perhaps our younger soon to be LPS owner too has gotten himself to this point, through both pluck and luck -- again none of us know the circumstances.
My concern would be, in real life, whatever that means, "things don't often come that easily" (unless perhaps your dad has the initials "DT.")
I hope our youngest (?) poster continues to participate.
:shades:
For the price of a stripper 5, a 330i or IS350 could be loaded to the gills. Is the space of an A6 really necessary? I know I didnt have any clients to drive around when I was 15.
I'm sure that if a 92 ES was tested using current IIHS standards, it would probably fail the frontal test, and would definitely fail the side and rear tests.
Pretty funny. Back in, ummm, 1973 I got "bumped" by a pickup truck while riding my bike down the road. The bump caused me to leave a fair amount of clothing, skin, blood, handlebar tape, steel and other bike metal AND the face of my favorite Timex watch in a long streak down the blacktop. Oddly enough, the thing that I was most upset about was the watch as I had saved for quite a while to buy it in the first place.
A friend of mine said, "Here, have my old watch, it's kind of ugly and doesn't have a day/date function or anything but at least it's a watch." I gratefully accepted it and began saving for another Timex.
Twenty years later I came across a box of stuff from back when I was in High School and decided to poke through it before I tossed it in the trash. My (then) lady friend was teasing me about going down memory lane and was suggesting that I should just "Throw the damn thing out" without even looking in it.
"Hurrmph!" I thought to myself, and continued poking around the bottom of the box. That's when I found the old watch that was given to me as my hold over between my two Timex watches. Funny thing, this one ended in an "x" too. "What the hell is a Rolex doing in here?" I exclaimed.
"Oh you're so full if it. Let me see that." I handed it over to her and she nearly fell off of the chair that she was sitting on. ;-)
I had it appraised and it turned out to be a pre-WWII Rolex Oyster-Perpetual worth about $3,000.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Your words seems to show to care a lot about what other think about yourself. Buying a car is an important step in a man's life, so it has to please to you first. If you buy it depending upon the other's view only/mostly, you may regret it later.
Trust yourself.
Pro-DSG view
Pro-Slushbox view
Best Regards,
Shipo
If your dad is going to buy you a 50,000 car, have him buy two. The first one WILL get destroyed. If you survive the first one, you can drive the second. I'm not being flippant. I'm being a realist.
For a 16yo, go with something like the new Civic Si. It's quick, easily modifiable both inside and out, is reliable and seems to do well in crashes. But the vehicle is small enough that a little bit of healthy fear/defensive driving would be in order. There are a LOT of forums on here for cars better suited to that age group, NOT an LPS.
Heck, if I was 16 now and my parents would buy me anything, a Honda S2000, or that new Saturn convertible might get my attention. Perhaps even the Scion line would warrant a look see.
-Paul
However, when I was 16, I was totally totally into cars, having subscriptions to whatever car mags were out at that time.
No way, no way, no way, would I have taken anything -- if given such a choice -- other than some pretty high zoot cars from both the US and Europe.
I recall liking Porsches and Mercedes and a fully decked out V8 and power everything Dodge Charger (which in some ways would be the LPS car of my youth.)
Heck, if it were offered, I would probably have taken the original TV Batmobile. And, I also remember the Green Hornet's Chrylser Imperial as a fave.
But, when I saw the huge V8 equipped Olds Toronado, I think I had an epiphany -- the first couple of years of THAT car were just what I wanted.
I would have killed myself in that thing, no doubt.
I drove a VW beetle and then a Plymouth Valiant (both with a stick shift.) Then I got the hand me down Chrysler Newport with the huge V8 -- the thing would lay rubber like crazy. Ahhhhhh Torque Flite 3 speed automatic with pushbutton controls a 4Track (not 8Track) stereo tape player and AM Radio with a front AND rear speaker.
I used to take the air cleaner off the thing, fill it up with $.25 per gallon "Swifty" gasoline and floor it just to hear that Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! sound from under the hood.
I was such a nerd.
Probably still am.
You are correct in your conclusions, otherwise.
Our soon to be LPS driver apparently already got shot down for the Audi S4 -- trying to devolve, I guess that would be my choice too. Dad is probably rightly concerned that the S4 would be trashed and crashed and that prying the son off the pavement with a spatula is something he would rather pass on.
Also, if something were to go wrong, these cars are about as safe as they come, definitely a lot more so than any S2000 or Scion coupe.
More spooky than fun. It would be like owning a car with telepathy. :surprise:
Talk about a humble confession, especially from a Marque that had a history of being the benchmark for quality.
Some may view such a confession as a weakness, but I view it as a MB strength. Juergen Schremp seemed to be oblivious to MB's problems. At least Zetsche is fully aware of what MB is faced with. That in itself is positive
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