Luxury Performance Sedans

docnukem

Well, of course I like to see my choice in cars validated by others, but I am the first to agree that CR is weighted towards reliability rather than other factors which many/most on this board think of as more important (performance, particularly).

I would rather have my car shown to be the best performer, rather than the most reliable (I think it performs pretty darn well, though). And suprise! I still think my old 328 was just as much fun to drive (and probably performed just a smidge better--weight and all that, you know).

I was merely objecting to your blanket statement that the results are a reflection of the readers', rather than the editor's biases.

dewey

was merely objecting to your blanket statement that the results are a reflection of the readers', rather than the editor's biases

I admit it was a blanket statement. But let me clarify and say that the CR results are not 100% biased and not 100% true.

kyfdx

It is a survey that records the data the survey respondents reply with...

How can that be "not true"..

Unless you are saying that CR somehow corrupts the data?

Or... that only Japanese car owners reply to CR surveys?

There must be plenty of Euro and American car owners replying... Otherwise, where do they come up with all of those black dots?

regards,
kyfdx

bdr127

They dont. CR has a bias about reliable cars. Japanese cars are the most reliable. Therefore...

LOL!... When a car mag writes about another BMW winner, then it's BMW bias. When CR writes about Japanese cars, it's just "fact."

How about I just respond with "Car mags such as Motor Trend, Road and Track, et al, have a bias about fun-to-drive, performance cars."

bdr127

I'd like to mention that on one of these forums someone pointed out that the new Lexus IS250/350 was given an "excellent" reliability rating, yet the new BMW 3-series was given "N/A" based on it being a "new model." Interesting, because the 3-series has actually been out longer. Not to mention that CR gave the previous generation 3-series great reliability ratings, so there goes that explanation, too... Strange, eh?

Bias?.... no, of course not! :P

moxie

I agree - and it's not as if CR is the only ratings source which deems German cars less reliable. Others such as J D Power corroborate the unreliability factor.

moxie

I agree that to be consistant, the IS and E90 should be rated N/A since they are both new models with new power plants. If I'm not mistaken however, the E46 didn't receive good ratings until recently while I don't recall Lexus ever being rated at less than "good". (Someone may be able to correct me on this.)

docnukem

Please....let us not go past this event horizon again.

The black hole of Japanese reliability vs European styling/performance is sucking........(or it just sucks).

(I kinna give ya any more, Capn'....she's givin' ya everything she's got and then some)

gregisgod13

is the a6 with the sline package the best car in this group???

hpowders

but I have reported to CR religiously and truthfully over the last 12 years that my BMWs have had absolutely no problems over the years. I sure I can't be the only lucky one here.

Sure proof of CR's Japanese bias:

When the new M35 was reviewed, reliability was predicted as excellent.
How can they assume this with a completely new model?

Also the relatively new Honda Accord Hybrid with completely untested for the long-term technology was predicted as excellent in reliability-even more reliable then the Accord V6 which is established and whose owners have given CR plenty of feedback.
Now how the heck would they know that the Hybrid has excellent reliability-based on what???

To say CR has no Japanese bias borders on the absurd.
Open your eyes, folks.

Read it like you live. :shades:

markcincinnati

Much as I want to reply 100% in the affirmative -- I think the best and most appropriate answer is "it all depends."

The SLine package is a true sports suspension, performance wheel and tire upgrade PLUS some shiny and pretty bits and perhaps some possibly usable air dam kinda do hickeys.

But, if you do not see the need for AWD, certainly the BMW also can be had with a real sports package as can the Infiniti. Apparently the Lexus and Acura don't offer the performance suspension pieces from the factory.

Mercedes of course, through the high zoot high buck AMG variants certainly offer high perf, but again only in 2WD.

Cadillac isn't part of this discussion but suffice it to say there are performance option groups for the STS that seem to be real, not simply cosmetic.

If you like the looks of the SLine, rest assured that the package does improve performance and some say makes the ride too stiff, some say nonsense to that.

I miss the sport set up personally, since I just went with the $1,000 optional wheels and tires instead of the $1,250 wheels, tires and suspension bits (that are from the SLine, but don't include the trim bits or the RS6 wheels.)

Best? Some folks are first and foremost concerned with reliability and no matter how much I brag about the fit, finish and so far so good quality/reliability of my 15,000 mile old 2005 A6, it will not count at all for some folks and only a little for other folks.

Having had 28 Audis, I can say this one is the best so far -- but maybe at 20,000 miles the thing will blow up.

The BMW outsells all the others and outsells the Audi by about 300%.

The Acura RL has had its detractors, but the reviews of the car from a driving perspective have been almost universally very good.

All that, just to end where I started: "It all depends."

The Infiniti M35X was an awfully tempting car back in May or June of 2005.

The 530xi because it alone can be had with a 6 speed manual is perhaps the only truly sporting intentioned car of the lot. Yet the SLine does more than add decoration.

Drive it like you live. :shades:

bdr127

Sure prooff of a Japanese bias:
When the new M35 was reviewed, reliability was predicted as excellent.
How can they assume this with a completely new model?

Also the Honda Accord Hybrid with new untested for the long-term technology was predicted as excellent-even more reliable then the Accord V6.
Now how the heck would they know that?

To say CR has no Japanese bias borders on the absurd.

I think that the "long-term reliability" is the key... Everyone here defending Japanese cars is talking about surveys of customers. With a relatively new (or brand new!) model, there's no way to know long-term reliability... yet they still get an excellent score. Even with relatively new technology in the Accord Hybrid, it gets a higher rating than even the V6? Something is surely wacky here....

hpowders

It's a no-brainer to me.

moxie

I think they predict the reliability of a new model based on their overall past experience with the Manufacturer's product line. It's not brain surgery.

hpowders

No it's not brain surgery. It's just dishonest and shows CR to be hypocritical-as it violates one of their credos-thou shalt not predict reliability for a new model of vehicle.
They seem to have no trouble in throwing what they profess to stand for out the window when it comes to unestablished Japanese vehicles.

markcincinnati

CR takes the fun out of cars, if you asked me -- which you didn't.

Now did you see their rating on the new Sears Kenmore Dishwashers, though. Now that's compelling. Wash times, number of cycles and hush a bye mode.

Be still my heart.

We be talking about $50,000 cars here -- I would imagine that we place a high premium on a lot of subjective and emotional issues pertaining to LPS cars first and foremost.

Reliability records are fine -- but they appeal (to me) not at all to the right brain.

Buying these cars is not Mr. Spock logical it is illogical, it is Dr. McCoy or Mr. Scott.

I am certain CR would pick the Borg while I'm on the Star Trek tangent.

CR has its place. I still maintain I would use this here board far more heavily than CR to make my choice.

I credit y'all with getting me to test drive the Infiniti M and then moving on to putting money down on one. None of us way back then could've had any info on the reliability of the brand new model -- yet the car punched all the right buttons.

CR is seldom useless, it is rarely useful, however.

Reminds me of asking a stranger, "where am I" and having the stranger reply "you're standing on the sidewalk."

True, accurate and pretty un-helpful.

I'll shut up now. :surprise:

ilas

The problem with CR is that they do not publish any information about sample sizes. Suppose only 2 readers write in for one car, and one of them has more than a few problems. The car gets a poor rating, even though a sample of 10 may have only showed one problem car. I know this may sound extreme, but without any knowledge concerning the reliability of their own statistics, I would have a hard time buying only based on CR reliability ratings.

I think all cars are closer in reliability than they ever have been. Some of the reliability discussion is silly to me.

Come to think of it, so is the "soul" discussion that seems to be perpetuated by the car mags. It kills me when they say that german cars have souls and Japanese cars do not (MT said the RL has tons of tech but soul). Is someone going to say that the Lexus engineer in Japan is any less enthusiastic about his/her job than the BMW engineer in germany. What about the factory workers. Well, my Acura has the souls of Ninjas past on board, so there

By the way, I had a terrible BMW 325 with recurrent engine and cooling problems, but then I traded it on a Subaru outback, which was horrific and threw an engine pully at 60,000 miles.

Sorry for the rant....

moxie

I am not anti-fun when it comes to cars. One of my cars is a Porsche Boxster - so there While the Boxster has been absolutely trouble free since new 5 1/2 years ago and has been ridiculously low cost to maintain, I have friends who have other German makes who have had nightmares with them - and I just don't think the subject of reliability should be swept under the rug - on any car forum.

Cheers.

gregisgod13

does the audi a6 come with keyless go?

tagman

the Boxster has been absolutely trouble free since new 5 1/2 years ago and has been ridiculously low cost to maintain,

You'll appreciate this. I was number one on the waiting list for the original Boxster back when that car was to be introduced. I placed a deposit in 1994 . . . YEARS in advance . . . immediately after reading a report about the car, and seeing the first prototype photo. I'll never forget that the salesman didn't believe that the car would actually be built. Of course, history proved different.

I finally sold it last year. The experience was nice, with exceptional cornering, although, IMO, the car needed more power, and thus the "S" was born shortly thereafter.

The maintenance was reasonable, with one major repair to the engine, because it suddenly stopped running, fortunately covered under an extended warranty I had purchased. As well, all early Boxsters did have some recalls, which I assume you took care of, as well.

Overall, not perfect, but well worth the good times . . . especially the first year or two when it was so unique. After that, unfortunately, all Porsches started to look too darn much alike.

TagMan

warthog

gregisgod13 asks: "is the a6 with the sline package the best car in this group???"

Before asking such a scattergun question, you might read a few hundred of the posts here. Then you won't ask that question. You'll ask many better questions.

moxie

Actually Tagman, mine has not had any issues although admittedly, it is very low mileage for a model year 2000. I am aware that there have been some issues with leaks from the real main seal but from following Porsche web boards, I am also aware that Porsche has been very good about covering those, even "out of warranty" if you can believe it! Boxster is a true "drivers car" and highly recommended as an addition to any LPS in readers respective garages.

Cheers.

markcincinnati

Yes but you can ignore it.

markcincinnati

No rug sweeping intended, I just want to find out from the folks here and on the other Inet Blogs rather than CR.

I wouldn't buy a totally efficient but ineffective car.

I would like as much efficiency as possible AFTER the effectiveness has been achieved. For me, effectiveness includes a huge dose of "fun" as it relates to me.

To each his/her own.

Of course I say this also believing that these cars are moving closer and closer to be a LOT alike.

Only the BMW marches to the drummer of maintaining the stick shift. And then no one buys them.

Lunatic fringe, I know you're out there. :shades:

markcincinnati

You said it so much more succinctly than I, but I think we sort of said "it all depends."

And, I agree, read, read, read, read.

Then test, test, test, test (drive.)

NB: when you test, use the same route for all the cars and make the same moves in terms of starting, stopping and cornering.

tagman

Actually Tagman, mine has not had any issues although admittedly, it is very low mileage for a model year 2000.

Well, that explains a lot! The original was a '97 model that had a few minor "out-of-the-gate" issues. Yours is well past that. Incredible cornering, don't you agree?

My previous one to the Boxster was an '88 Carrera Targa. I still miss that one a lot. It was fairly dependable except for the synchromesh. I drove it very hard back then and it delivered a style of performance that perhaps by today's standards isn't incredible, but there was just something about it I truly loved at the time. I think I will always have fond memories of that Porsche.

Enjoy your Boxster! You like the Cayman's styling? I do.

TagMan

pat

We had a post that had an email address as the subject line and it had a couple of replies. We have a policy against posting email addresses (see the comments atop the post box) and we have this term included in our Rules of the Road (linked on the left):

8. No "Email Me" or Email Addresses in Posts

One important key to a successful, vibrant online community is having the conversation take place where everyone can benefit from the questions and answers. Therefore, we highly discourage "email me" requests within a post. As we like to have the discussion in the Forums, these posts will be removed. An email exchange of answers deprives the community of valuable information. Including your email address in posts also risks your security by exposing it to those who will use it maliciously. If you would like your address available to other registered members, click on 'Preferences' and mark your email address 'public'.

So I had to remove the posts that contained the email address as the subject.

Drop me an email if you have any questions ... thanks for your understanding.

dewey

How can that be "not true"..
Unless you are saying that CR somehow corrupts the data?
Or... that only Japanese car owners reply to CR surveys?

Oh no, I am not claiming a conspiracy theory related to CR corruption. Even if CR is 100 percent honest and all Japanese, German and Amercian car owners are 100 percent sincere in their surveys you still can end up having the problem I noted in post #6530.

Does that mean CR results are bogus. Absolutely not! It just means there may be some bias in the CR results.

gohorns1

Wow, what a tremendous amount of psychoanalysis regarding CR. So what the heck, let me throw my neurons into the discussion (at my own risk). Do we actually know that there are fewer German Car Owners (GCO) subscribing to CR because they don't like their review of their cars? I suspect there are plenty of GCO who receive the magazine, maybe not for the cars but for the other info. Why would only the upset GCO respond to the survey and not the content owners. If I were a ticked off GCO regarding CR and their evaluation of "my car", perhaps I would be more inclined to fill out their survey with a positive light and this could actually tilt the German car responses falsely positive. Remember, the surveys are about the car one drives, not their opinion regarding another car. Given this thought process, which is just as unscientifically derived as to say that GCO avoid CR, perhaps the German cars are even less reliable then CR reports. OK this is a little twisted thinking and I know I am about to be pounded by a large hpowder hammer :sick: , but it is something to consider.....(or not)

gregisgod13

yes, srry i accidently pressed autofil and it put it there without me seeing it. srry

moxie

"You like the Cayman's styling? I do."

Yes - I haven't tested the Cayman yet but it is a fine looking machine. Some people I have talked to think that Porsche priced it a bit too high as it costs more than the Boxster "S" which is of course a convertible, and convertibles usually cost more - not less. Performance is about the same.

As long as I have a Porsche, the "P" in LPS won't have as big a weighting as it might with many of my fellow boarders here.

Cheers.

merc1

Well what you listed is pretty much it. The E500 will become the 382hp E550, but the E350 should stay the same. I don't think the new direct-injection 3.5L V6 will make it in time for our 2007 model year cars. Lastly, yes the E320CDI will get the new V6 making 4Matic an option for the first time on a E-Class diesel. There should be some interior tweaks and some updates to the chassis if the recently facelift SL is anything to go by. Mercedes has a lot riding on this car so I think the FL will go a little deeper mechanically than the usual lights/bumpers/wheels stuff, IMO of course.

M

merc1

I found something about the 07' E-Class. This little article says that they've also worked on the driving qualities also. They don't usually change the chassis much during a FL, but considering what they've done with the SL I figured the E would get a more through facelift.

M

vchiu

Right on spot!

With Direct injection, we may even get better EPA figures than the non turbo engine, like the VW 2.0TFSI compared to the 2.0FSI

300 HP and 400 NM are exactly the figures I was dreaming for my ideal 3 serie . I would choose the estate version and an auto gearbox for the ultimate smoothness.

I can't wait to see it

vchiu

>I had great regret leaving my beloved inline 6 for the more powerful but less refined BMW V-8.

Whoa? L-6 more refined than V8 with BMW? Do some people have similar experience?
I have a 740i and I wouldn't qualify the powertrain as unrefined or disappointing in this respect.

I shortly tested a 328 and a 728 and I found both to be noisier and a bit coarse in comparison. No experience with the latest L-6 or V8 though. Power output disregarded

any other views?

warthog

There was a recent spate of posts on the topic of an inline 6's superior balance. See, for example, post #6291.

hpowders

is occasionally the V-8 when idling and then just giving it a little gas wants to sprint ahead-can be dangerous pulling into a garage a few feet from the wall when you want to pull in a wee bit closer.

Never had this problem with the I6. Smooth and refined.

markcincinnati

Diesel plus 4Matic -- almost a Homer Simpson "pork chop" moment for me.

Now can we get Audi and BMW on/in the hunt!?!

lexusguy

And of course Lexus completely blew their chance to compete with a Diesel 4Matic Benz with their boneheaded move to make the GS450h RWD.

dewey

There seems to be a spread of AWD euphoria in this forum?

So a AWD Lexus GS450H is going to be significantly more successful than the upcoming RWD GS450H? I dont think so.

AWD is not the key attribute that will define any car's success(with the exception of Audi and Subaru). You want proof? Look at the Acura RL. Nor do I think the prospects of a hybrid AWD RL will improve, especially when compared to a Lexus RWD GS450H.

dewey

Good rebuke and you may be right.

So now I am going to quit my psychologybabble and focus more on metal and tires.

dewey

The following article from USAToday indicates that this is as good a time as it will ever get in terms of buying a new reliable LPS.

David Champion, head of auto testing for the magazine, says the quality plateau probably is due to increasing use of electronics in cars. "The electrical and electronic features tend to be problematic, so they could be causing a leveling off of reliability even though the rest of the car is getting more reliable," he says.

I am willing to go a step further and predict that reliability will go downhill as electrical/electronic features become more complex. And yes my prediction does include Japanese LPS marques.

Bad news for the Germans:

For instance, Porsche is the least-reliable brand sold in the U.S., the magazine says. But that is because of the poor record of just one model, the Cayenne SUV.

No Mercedes-Benz vehicle earns a "recommended" from Consumer Reports. Mercedes-Benz also is worst in the list of how well five-year-old vehicles held up. Mercedes-Benz did not respond to requests for comment.

German brands BMW, Audi and Volkswagen also are in the bottom half of the reliability rankings, and relatively few of their models earn a "recommended."

I guess the German translation for services is OUCH!!!

link title :sick:

bdr127

Do we actually know that there are fewer German Car Owners (GCO) subscribing to CR because they don't like their review of their cars?

I don't think that not as many German car owners or enthusiasts don't subscribe to CR because the writers don't like their cars...

I think they don't subscribe as much because they don't agree with the criteria CR uses to evaluate and "recommend/not recommend" all cars. It's a general philosophy about what should be the emphasis for a car review, and CR does not give the emphasis GCO care as much for.

markcincinnati

Euphoria sounds so much better than Lunatic Fringe, but part of the reasons I would cite, beyond my own experiences, that is, include what I call the "Megatrends" effect.

From Automobile, Autoweek, Car and Driver, CNN, MSN/MSNBC, Road and Track -- and the other pubs like Money, the New York Times, USA TODAY and Field and Stream -- the number of mentions of AWD as "a" necessary criteria to be considered on the LPS (or as they often say, Premium Class) list continues to grow "apace."

Indeed, I believe the majority of these publications have at one time or another proclaimed AWD is "the fastest" growing "must have" feature even if at this juncture it hasn't risen to be "the most important feature."

Apparently, having a V8 is right up there, though, which is funny since most of the guys selling V8 versions sell at least 80% of their offerings with the lesser power plants.

Perhaps the inability to GET an 8 cylinder engine has done Acura some harm, despite the fact that even if they had one it would probably only represent 5 to 20% of sales.

Go figure.

Megatrends 2005 - LPS cars must come with (available) 8 cylinder power plants and AWD. And thus it has manifested itself to be.

Chicken or Egg? Beats me. :confuse:

lexusguy

I dont think there's really that much interest in the GS450h. It's rear drive. Its supposed to have around 300hp. Lexus already has that car, its called the GS430.

Since you cant get a GS430 AWD (or as far as I know, 460 AWD) why not electrically drive the front wheels on the 450h, instead of making a car that is essentially a GS430 with a few more mpg, for a few more thousand dollars? Who really wants that?

Edit: Apparently the 450h will start ar $56K, and have 339hp. An AWD version would've given them a model to compete with the other V8 powered, AWD cars. Instead, Japan will remain 0 for 3. I still say its a dumb move.

moxie

Wow - is that LINK a vindication of CR's methology or what ?

A senior executive of Ford Motor Co. saying the magazine is not biased !!

dewey

Well at least the German executives are dignified enough not to respond to this article. These CR stats are not even worthy of their attention. Especiallly when German car sales keep on booming independent of JD Power and CR results. :P

In addition those dismal CR results will have no impact whatsoever on my decision to buy a German sports sedan.

dewey

It appears Dr. Phil who considers himself an auto enthusiast is not so keen about manual trannies.

The first of the two sports cars is a 2002 Ferrari 360 Spider that Dr. Phil bought as a gift to himself after learning that his television show would be aired nationally. Featuring chrome modular wheels, a stunning titanium paint, Challenge Stradale grills and a blue top with matching interior, it is one of the best-looking 360s on the road. The car's F-1 style paddle shifter helps put the enormous 400 horsepower to the road, making it an incredibly fast and capable supercar.

The other Dr. Phil-owned car is a 2001 Gemballa Porsche Turbo. A pristine specimen with only 8,159 miles, the Gemballa Turbo comes with every option available, including a Tiptronic transmission

link title

bdr127

lol! This is almost as bad as saying that "Bill Gates drives a LS430, so what does that say about the car!"

Ha! Dr. Phil.... *(shakes head)*

moxie

I too am not precluded from buying a German sports sedan - in fact I have owned several! I'm not sure however, that Mercedes sales have in fact have "boomed".