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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • gregisgod13gregisgod13 Member Posts: 27
    this is such a hard decision. this is becuasr both cars are so similar. the bmw wins exterior looks. audi wins interior. the audi has a 30hp bigger engine but it also is heavier so that becomes easier. they are both 54,000 after i customize them. they both got all the similar accecories. the one thing that audi wins on is the sline package. but the bmw wins on prestigness. all my friends have split the picks 50-50. this will really be a hard decsision.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I still say get the 525i with the manual transmission. Talk about "prestigness", all of your friends will say, "Hey dude, nice BMW! Damn! I didn't know you could drive a stick. You da man!" ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "they are both 54,000 after i customize them......this will really be a hard decsision."

    Maybe I've been out of the market for awhile, but I have to ask, are you NUTS??? :surprise: $54,000 for a 525i (or A6 for that matter)? Tell me that's in Canadian dollars, Rubbles or something other than US greenbacks. Please. :cry:

    I briefly considered an M5 before electing to keep our TL 6-speed and get a fun car (911S Cab). I also priced out a 550i 6-speed. With sport package, premium sound, navigation, cold weather package and another goodie or two, the 550i 6-speed came in at an MSRP of $67k +/-, an invoice price of $61k +/- and a negotiated European delivery price of $58,750.

    If you can afford $54,000 for a 525i, certainly you can scrape together another $5,000, cash in some frequent flyer miles, and get a top of the line 550i. And have a car that performs nearly as well as the previous generation M5, with better gas mileage to boot.

    I am a big fan of BMW but there is no way I could justify $54k for a 530i, let alone a 525i.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    If you can afford $54,000 for a 525i, certainly you can scrape together another $5,000, cash in some frequent flyer miles, and get a top of the line 550i. And have a car that performs nearly as well as the previous generation M5, with better gas mileage to boot.

    I am a big fan of BMW but there is no way I could justify $54k for a 530i, let alone a 525i.


    Everyone has their opinions, obviously.... but for some people, it just isn't about the engine. Some people would rather have the neat-o options and features. Some would rather have the "L" than the "P" in their LPS. It's not up to us to tell someone what is most important to them....
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My 2005 A6 3.2 without Sline was $53,286.

    The BMW would be my choice were it a stick and the 525xi.

    With the stipulation that it has to be an auto. An Sline A6 vs an RWD auto 525 is not a competion were it my bucks.

    Go for the stick and the x drive or don't go BMW -- if all you want is prestige, well I guess the BMW does win on that count.

    But man with that much MSRP to play with, you will regret no AWD and IMHO no stick.

    Live a little -- the stick is the real prestige.

    But, Sline with the 255hp and 243 pd ft of torque will be the performer.
  • gregisgod13gregisgod13 Member Posts: 27
    im not gonna get a stick shift becuase it wouldd be to much to deal with so i want an automatic. i think i like the a6 with slone package alot. what are the statisticds to amounnt of audi a6 vs the bmw 525 in number sold?
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    If it were me though, I would be very worried about a 1992 car's lack of basically any modern safety features.

    Oh come on, it's a 92, not a 62. The car has ABS and a driver's side airbag. Since my daughter will not be driving any friends, at least not initially, I am not concerned about passenger side airbags.

    Anyway, safety is a relative thing. It might not have the most recent safety innovations, but that doesn't make it unsafe. For that matter, my 02 doesn't have all the latest safety innovations, either. Should I ditch it too?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Everyone has their opinions, obviously.... but for some people, it just isn't about the engine. Some people would rather have the neat-o options and features. Some would rather have the "L" than the "P" in their LPS. It's not up to us to tell someone what is most important to them...."

    I agree. And so long as gregisgod13 doesn't tire of the car in less than 8-10+ years, he will be fine financially. But based upon my observations, a 525i loaded up with every extra cost option and do-dad in the book will sell or trade in 3-4-5 years for a huge discount relative to that original $54k MSRP. There just isn't that much demand for a (relatively speaking) excessively optioned entry level 525i that approaches or exceeds a well optioned 550i or 530i in price.

    I'm sure someone could figure out a way of turning a $20k Accord into a $45k RL through options and aftermarket add-ons, but I'd probably be questioning the financial purdence of that, as well.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    In the US the BMW 5 sells about 3 times as well as the Audi A6. In the homeland, they sell about the same, recently the A6 outsold the 5 there, and it wouldn't be a shocker if the tables turn again and again.

    If you want the popular car based on numbers you must go BMW, if you want the car that is slightly more "rare" in the US the Audi wins.

    I wouldn't get a car in the LPS group based on either popularity or unpopularity -- the cars are all pretty good. Even the least popular is a good car and the middle selling cars are too.

    For some folks, the Germans which hold the top two sales spots are not their cup of tea for a variety of reasons.

    I am concerned, but I am the lunatic fringe, that you think the stick is too much to deal with. In what way?

    Hopefully you would NEVER use a NON hand and eyes free phone while driving then, since THAT would be the real definition of too much to deal with.

    Manual transmission = more control, more performance and two components of safety (not all the components, but two of them) ARE control+ performance. Plus the stick is, shall we say more satisfying and fun to boot.

    Might I add, that the stick will cut the cost of the BMW 525xi by some $1200.

    The Sline package, however, will improve the performance and control of the Audi too.

    Decisions, decisions.

    I certainly hope you have at least taken a stick shift out for a long long long test drive on all kinds of roads.

    :shades:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I'm thinking he's never driven a stick and the "too much to deal with" is learning the stick at the same time he's learning to drive his new car.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well, then, if that is true, "there's no time like the present!" :surprise:
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    I am thinking that ol' Greg is putting us on and having some fun with us. And there is nothing wrong with that. We all have our dreams.

    Greg, on the 1% chance that you are telling the truth, please show some common sense and tell your dad that you would prefer to have a nice 2 or 3 year old Honda civic coupe to begin your car ownership with.

    Half the fun of owning a car at your age is "messing with it", taking things apart and putting them back together to learn how they operate and what they do.

    Starting out with the car of your dreams at 15 gives you nothing (carwise) to look forward to. Best of luck to you in the future.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Fortunately when I bought my first new car (88 Acura Integra) I was too financially deprieved to afford the extra $$$ to acquire the option of automatic. My dad had to pick up my Integra since I did not know how to drive with a stick.

    Ironically today I am willing to spend extra money for the option of driving a manual car.

    I am so grateful that I was not able to afford a automatic Integra, otherwise I would have become one of those avid slushbox fans that buy up 90 percent of our autos in N. America :D
  • acctprofacctprof Member Posts: 41
    I am thinking that ol' Greg is putting us on and having some fun with us.

    As many times as it has been suggested, Greg has never given any indication that he has been to a dealer to drive any of these cars.

    Len
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well there is the fact that he is underage, technically.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    1) Will this nightmarish organization called VW have no negative effect whatsoever on the future of Audi?

    It appears VW may try again in selling premium luxury cars like the Phaeton. IMO GM's Roger Smith looks like a genius when compared to Piech. VW's highest wages, lowest productivity and the least reliable autos in the industry are the least of VW's worries when compared to having such an incompetent chairman as Piech in the helm.

    businessweek

    Pischetsrieder's recent move to steer Volkswagen down-market -- reversing the premium strategy that Piëch himself carved out for the German auto maker during his tenure as CEO in the 1990s -- has bred resentment between the two men.

    The last straw might have been Pischetsrieder's recent decision to yank Piëch's pride and joy, the $70,000 Phaeton luxury sedan, from the U.S. market, where it suffered from dismally low sales.

    Analysts fear that if Piëch gets to crown a new CEO -- some believe it could be Audi boss Martin Winterkorn -- he could shift gears again, investing in more up-market models in a bid to rival BMW and Mercedes.


    2) I have never ever seen such a creative auto ad like the one linked below. Unfortuantely it is not a LPS ad ---click on the "watch" bar at the bottom of the screen. THen watch the British Honda Choir simulate car sounds.

    Greatest Ad in Automotive History
  • gregisgod13gregisgod13 Member Posts: 27
    u really think i am messing with u. that is really funny. comical even. why would i be so bored to do something like that. i think that ur kinda jelouse cuase u had a honda civic as ur 1st car.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Get your dad to buy you a BMW 545 or 550 if he can.
    Blows away anything else talked about on this forum.

    As for the sentiment that you have so many years to grow into and appreciate finer vehicles, you can get hit by a bus tomorrow.
    Life is fragile. There are no guarantees.
    Get the best car you can now.
    Live for the present.
    Experience now what the best in life has to offer and that happens to be BMW, vehicularly speaking, in this price category.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I think Greg would be closer to God with a Porsche ,although BMW would not be much further away, particularly with a back seat..Tony
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Greg, I meant no disrespect, just curious and I know how 15 year olds like to put us old guys on.

    By the way, my first car was a 1953 Nash Rambler. My folks bought it for me in 1959 at a cost of $700. I was 16 at the time. It was one great car, mainly because it had reclining front seats. It was a 3 speed manual with overdrive, so effectively it was a 4 speed. I loved it!!

    I often think that all those old cars from back then would have driven much better if we had had radial tires. They came along later. Anyway, I hope you get what you want.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexus confronts German sales barriers:

    Toyota, meanwhile, aims to boost sales of the high-end Lexus LS hybrid in Germany.

    The carmaker sold more than 130,000 vehicles in Germany last year, increasing its market share there to about 4%. But lifting Lexus sales, which totaled slightly less than 3,000 units last year, will not be easy.

    This is due to a structural factor. More than half of the customers in Germany's 1-million-unit luxury car market are corporate clients, which are loyal to BMW AG and other local automakers. In addition, it is estimated that more than 70% of midsize and large luxury cars there are powered by diesel engines. This means that Toyota, which does not sell a midsize or large model with such an engine, can compete for just 300,000 to 400,000 vehicle sales.

    To strengthen its push for the LS hybrid, Toyota will seek to impress high-profile drivers. Specifically, the automaker will offer test drives and discounts to state environmental ministers and officials of major nongovernmental organizations promoting environmental protection, hoping they will purchase the eco-friendly car and promote it in influential circles.


    link title
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The only 2 things I can find fault with in my 545 are the "urge to surge" and the ridiculously unnecessary and complicated steps to change radio frequencies when one travels interstate.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Take the $50k from the old man, get a loan for $10k and step up to a 545 or 550.
    You will blow them all out of the water.
    You will be disappointed with the 525's acceleration.

    I would choose the non-nav. 330i with sport package over the 525 any day.
    Without navigation in the 330i, you can avoid getting iDrive.

    BMW should phase out the 525i. For a $50k LPS, you should expect to be driving a rocket.
    The 525 sadly is anything but.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Take the $54K and get the S4 would be my advice, but then again you knew I wouldn't suggest an RWD car.

    He has it down to two choices. He claims he will not even consider a stick shift.

    Of the two choices, given the limitations he has placed on this, the Sline A6 is the winna. If he would even consider the stick shift, the 525xi stick would be plenty fast, but not as quick as the Audi, but for my $54K pretty darn cool and FUN.

    Greg is not keen on a stick shift -- so the lunatic fringe just can't be heard.

    "I know you're out there. . ."
  • gregisgod13gregisgod13 Member Posts: 27
    yes i have taken great consideration on getting a 330xi instead and save the extra cash for the colage fund lol. but the fact ia that there are exactly 9 330's at my school and only one 525, and no audi a6's. but there are alot of mercedes s55 amg's. so thats another plus for the audi. and or 525.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    he doesn't want a pure sports machine and the effort required to learn how to drive one, so I would eliminate the S4 and M3.

    I'm sure he would love a 330i sport or if a 5 series-at least a 530i sport-both cars available with a steptronic tranny-if you must.
    The 525i is a waste of money, IMHO.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the M35 either.
    I will be taking another look at it when my signature begins to fade on my 545 lease in 2 years.

    I notice that CR gave a perfect 100 to the Porsche Boxster. Wow!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If I had to make a choice between a 525i and Audi A6, I would definitely choose the Audi.
    The 525i is over-priced for what you get-weak engine, so-so interior.

    The Audi interior is very handsome and the exterior is also very nice. You won't find many of them around.
    You can probably get a great deal too, since it hasn't been selling too well in the USA.

    If you were willing to step up to at least a 530i sport, then I would say go with the BMW.
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    After my wife crashed our '04 rx330, we got several rentals to drive for more than one month each: '05 e320 wagon, '05 e320 sedan, '05 fx35, and an '05 m35. In context of MB quality, I must agree with Zetsche's assessment of a noticable gap in quality between his cars and Lexus. That said, I think Zetsche is a great leader and communicator. His acknowledgement of what's wrong and clear vision of where to go will bring this storied marque to new heights. I predict he will restore the lustre and shine to the hallowed tri-star. Investors take notice.
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    This reminds me of Daedalus giving wings to his son, Icarus. If his dad buys him a 545 or 550, he will get hit by a bus or train. Life is fragile, and even more precarious by dropping an adolescent behind a wheel of a very fast and rwd sedan. For that money, his dad should get him the heaviest hunk of steel (suburban) to ram into the civics he'll be hitting.
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    My '01 911 has backseats--albiet for midgets or rhesus monkeys. If I were Greg, I'd beg for an 03 viper gts then "settle" for an '02 cpo 996c4s.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sure, the practical move for a starter would be a 4 cylinder Corolla or Civic-preferably a used one.
    This young man is very status conscious, however, and the cars in his school parking lot are all BMW's and the like.
    One has to hope he will be responsible.
    Not all young people are defendants on Judge Judy and/or have a death wish.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    A couple of thoughts on the driving dynamics front which most people on this particular thread are concerned with.
    The BMW has slightly superior steering feel and handling. That said I feel BMW's can tend to be a little nervous. Audi's to me have a more planted feel.[Like growing grass under the wheels.] Audi's have a beautiful quality to them that allows you to drive them all day and not feel beat up. You will lose a little of that "at the limit telepathy" that the bimmer offers.
    So, have you driven them? The biggest advice I can say to you is, when you are driving a car with the capabilities, and reputation that these two auto makers have earned, you are either driving them out of an educated decision, or as a poser who drives whatever the "cool people" drive.
    Don't be another moron who bought a bimmer cause it's cool. Buy it as an educated car enthusiast who can answer the questions asked by non- car peasants :P. Understand that a fine German automobile is an experience. Most other makes are a tool for point A to B.
    Now, no more questions until you have driven them both. :mad:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Not all young people are defendants on Judge Judy and/or have a death wish.

    If every 15 year old in the world was showered with gifts like a A6 or BMW5 , then there would be no need for any youth to face Judge Judy or have a death wish.(unless ofcourse if daddy changes his mind and buys his son a Corolla instead, then things might get homicidal)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    It's sad but true. Go to any wealthy suburban HS student parking lot and the cars you will see will be BMW's and Corvettes.
    The Corollas will be found in the teachers' parking lot.
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    Go to any wealthy suburban HS student parking lot and the cars you will see will be BMW's and Corvettes.

    And how many memorial pages are there in the yearbook?

    Call me the stick in the mud if you insist, but I'll repeat what I said before. Even the wimpiest car is a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands at the wrong time. Or even the right hands at the wrong time. Careful, experienced drivers die too, even when they're driving carefully, because you just never know what the other guy is going to do. So why look for trouble unnecessarily? Inexperience plus a powerful engine is an ill-advised combination. My children are way too precious to me to take that chance.

    YMOV.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    go tell a kid you're getting him a used Civic when fellow classmates are driving 330i's.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My TV comes on at 7AM to the Today show. Although my alarm had gone off 30 minutes earlier, I was a bit in a fog still and heard Katie say something about a "girlie man."

    I am a tech-weenie, so you will pardon me for having Tivo in my bedroom. Well it was actually 7:12AM and I rewound and fast forwarded whilst having a cup of coffee until I found the reference to "James Bond, Aston Martin, Stick Shift and Girlie-man."

    The new James Bond, so says Katie or Matt, is being forced to "drive a Ford" since he can't drive the Aston Martin with the stick shift (hence Katie's comment that any [Bond} man who can't drive a stick is a "Girlie-man.")

    Then it hit me -- the paucity of stick shifts in THE place or at least A place where I would expect them to be "universally" offered (the LPS cars, natch) has nothing to do with their suitability or even appropriate-ness in this class, it simply is (or must be) that driving a stick shift is a skill that has for all practical purposes atrophied.

    No wonder the [high school] "boys" (and there are some "girls," too) at my local full-service car wash seem un-phazed by my assertions (hopefully delivered and taken in good nature) that "real men" (and "real women") can drive sticks. I tell them not to EVER admit they can't drive a stick and to make haste to learn to drive one.

    "Buggy whips will be back again, you mark my words!" :surprise:

    I used to get a rise out of these "kids" when I would needle them as they attempted to find the correct match of engine RPM and clutch slippage to move my car foward starting out in 5th gear (amid the smell of burning clutch and whisps of bluish smoke) as I ran toward the car yelling "stop! stop! I'll take it from here!")

    No more.

    Stick shifts are officially off the "cool-dar" apparently. For if even James Bond cannot drive a car with a stick, what are the rest of us to do to even attempt to perpetuate this drive line?

    Ahhh -- James driving the Audi 200 turbo quattro in "The Living Daylights" (with a stick of course) and now James driving a Ford whatchamacallit instead of an Aston Martin, signifies the end of an era.

    I'm turning my Audi in right now and getting, wait a minute, I already have become the "girlie man" of my nightmares, what with my lousy two-pedal emasculated but still pretending LPS car. Luxury Posing as Sport is the new TLA don't you think?

    Or don't you? :confuse:

    Apparently, you aren't out there, Lunatic Fringe. :cry:
  • acctprofacctprof Member Posts: 41
    I'm turning my Audi in right now and getting, wait a minute, I already have become the "girlie man" of my nightmares, what with my lousy two-pedal emasculated but still pretending LPS car. Luxury Posing as Sport is the new TLA don't you think?

    Thirty years ago I made fun of my boss (delicately, of course)for driving a Jaguar with an automatic. I told him that no sports car should come with an automatic.

    He replied "They stopped making sports cars when they put in A/C and rollup windows."

    You are one of a dieing breed. The rest of us are why the L is first in LpS. I'm sorry for your loss.

    Len
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Imagine never being able to experience what must be the incomparable pleasure of driving an S4, M3, Porsche Boxster or 911, etc; all because one never took the time to learn how to drive a stick.
    And for those for whom the above is an impossible dream, one can still test drive these vehicles.
    Can you imagine ordering any of the above with automatic?
    Absolute heresy, I say.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    on order is with a stick. I don't think they make a real S4 without one. I think those may be called an Audi S4*
    "Lunatic fringe reporting for duty sir"
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Imagine never being able to experience what must be the incomparable pleasure of driving an S4, M3, Porsche Boxster or 911, etc; all because one never took the time to learn how to drive a stick.

    I agree that it would be sad to not be able to experience the joy of driving a true sports car with a stick on a hilly and winding country road because you never learned how to use a stick. But I still think that Mark and you other "purists" are missing the point that a stick is neither fun nor beneficial to use in bumper-to-bumper urban traffic, when you are creeping along going somewhere between 0 and 15 mph with your left foot riding the clutch. I would bet Mark doesn't spend much time doing that in Cincinnati, but move to LA or NYC or DC and try it, and I think you'll change your perspective on this.

    Len's correct: should we give up electric windows just because it is harder to adjust the space of the opening exactly as much as you want than it is with roll-down windows? There are trade-offs to many technology upgrades, but people are willing to weigh those trade-offs and make a decision based on their own needs.

    Mark is not a lunatic on the fringe; he is just in a minority of drivers in how they want to drive their everyday cars (most people don't have the luxury of having a sports car in their garage for weekend driving only).
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    You will be disappointed with the 525's acceleration.

    A 15 year probably has no prior experience to compare to.... A 525i will seem absolutely fine if he doesn't jade himself by driving a 550i.

    When I was 16, I got my first car... a used 1987 Mazda 323 LX sedan (stick, of course!), and I never thought twice about its power. Of course, I got a new Nissan Maxima as my first car out of college... only then did I realize the Mazda was pretty weak!
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    go tell a kid you're getting him a used Civic when fellow classmates are driving 330i's.

    All it takes is a spine.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Then what does the P stand for "Pampered?"
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    My main concern for a 15yr old car would be the reliabilty of airbag deployment. Don't quote me on this, but from what I read years ago, the gunpowder/explosive charge in the airbag system was designed to be good for only 6 years or so. But then again, hopefully it never comes to using airbags ;-)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Re the wimpy-ness of the 525xi.

    I will try, I mean really try, to take a 525 i or xi for a test drive this Saturday whilst our X3 3.0 stick is in for its first oil change @ 17,000 miles.

    Oh, BTW, I mean ONLY a manual version of this car, I have no doubt it is less than fun with the auto and the lower powered engine.

    Unfortunately, we have plenty of grid lock here in our big town (or, if you like small city) -- yet the stick would still be my pref.

    Listen, I only want the choice -- I really want us each to have what we WANT.

    I am given little choice is my point.

    An S4 just isn't quite big enough.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That's why IMHO 525i is a good choice: all the safety features, yet slower than a Civic Si or V6 Accord. An X5 3.0 would be even better; more survivability in a crash with SUV's, and more room in the back for making out ;-)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Exactly. Nor would any LPS make for a satisfying weekend sports car. LPS and automatic are a very natural match indeed; that's why the overwhelming majority LPS's are sold with automatics.
  • acctprofacctprof Member Posts: 41
    "Nor would any LPS make for a satisfying weekend sports car. LPS and automatic are a very natural match indeed; that's why the overwhelming majority LPS's are sold with automatics."

    Exactly on point. LpS.

    BTW, my boss was lamenting the loss of the bolt-on windows, as in the 1950's MGs. Roll-ups did not belong on a sports car.

    Len
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sure. I agree. Unfortunately, practicality must prevail over fantasy, which is why I ordered my 545 with steptronic transmission.
    Ideally it would be great to have 2 vehicles-an Accord with automatic for daily city driving and a 911 stick for exhilarating weekend jaunts.
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