Luxury Performance Sedans



  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes the new G's interior is mightly improved. The M's interior doesn't do anything for me though, its the big ATM like buttons I think.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Sales (US):

    "AUBURN HILLS, MI – Audi of America, Inc. set sales records during December 2006 and for the calendar year 2006, eclipsing the previous annual sales high set three years ago. Audi sold 11,897 vehicles in December, bringing the brand’s annual total sales to 90,116.

    Audi’s December 2006 record sales were 34.6% ahead of year-ago sales. The calendar year sales represented an 8.5% increase over 2005."

    Followed by:

    "Audi A6 Is Number One in Germany - Sport and dynamics paired with high-quality functionality: that is the secret to success of the AUDI A6. This combination makes the Audi Germany’s best-selling vehicle for the first ten months of 2006 in its segment. Both with the new registrations in the over-all passenger car market in Germany the AUDI A6 has a nose in front of the competition as well as in fleet business in the executive-class category. 52,299 AUDI A6s were registered in the first ten months of 2006 in Germany."

    Audi USA (and Audi generally) probably wishes for BMW and Mercedes (USA) numbers, but overall, I would assume Audi (here and there) execs are celebrating. Don't cry for me Argentina, er, or something like that.

    Torque Vectoring:

    I am ONLY a couple of paragraphs more (apparently) into reading about TVT than some other folks, so that makes my observation worth about $.02. But, the first MULE using the TVT is an Audi (the technology will be able to be purchased and installed in other mfgr's products, this is NOT solely an Audi thing, i.e.) The company's web site and all the press kit info I can find does not lead one to the conclusion that this is NOT a full time AWD system.

    My interpretation is that it seems somewhat like the reverse of ESP in that ESP works mainly by braking one or more wheels and/or cutting power in an attempt to control yaw or rate of yaw. The TVT seems to be to be able to take quattro (et al) at least one or two steps better (again, kind of like what ESP did -- it took ABS a step or three better.) This means "active, anticipatory, instantaneous torque distribution" -- power is distributed to the wheels based on the driver's intentions as telegraphed and detected via hardware and software, etc. If I said any more at this point it would go from some speculation to a "lot" of speculation. The company's web site, written by an engineer apparently, does not, to me, suggest anything less than full AWD would be the consequence of Audi's adoption of TVT.


    The 3.6L is already putting out 280HP, my guess is that will be the smallest rating of this engine we will ever see in a (US bound, at least) Audi so equipped. I dunno about anything for sure for sure actually being turbo'd, I would just like to have the chance to buy a 3.2T FSI someday. Who knows?

    Yep, 4" is the engine set back I have read about, too.

    A better balanced Audi? That would seem to me to be very able to threaten the Munich guys, just a tad. :surprise:
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I'd say the new G's interior is actually better than the M's.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I agree. The M's -- at the time when it was NEW -- used to be so much nicer than the G's (which was really kinda cheapo looking), now, not so much.

    And the beat goes on.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    'd say the new G's interior is actually better than the M's.

    You may be right about that. The M has almost all of its secondary controls on the top panel, which isn't really ideal. The G has just the NAV buttons on the little panel below the NAV screen, with the audio and climate controls where they should be. The new VW-ish gauges are also much better than the old orange ones. I think the G and 3 series currently have the best in class interiors, while the M's is somewhere in the middle.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 3,856
    I'll respectfully disagree re: G vs TL interiors. One of the reasons I chose the '05 TL (non-nav. Yes, it is just slightly less graceful sans the nav-screen. Plain, but functional) over the '05 G was the interior. I found the TL to be of higher quality materials and more ergonomically and stylistically pleasing. I do wish the TL had a couple of the Gs interior features, notably the adjustable steering wheel/instrument pod and moreso the driver's seat ingress/egress feature (my Chrysler 300M had that!). The Gs seat may have been a bit better padded, too, but not enough to sway me. I'm not a fan of the TL "plood," hence my interior choice included the faux carbon fiber (with real aluminum).

    Exterior too. I find the TL to be a very handsome, agressive design. Especially for a Honda!!!

    New G, big improvement. If the '08 CTS is anything like the '07 SRX, big improvement (I love nicely styled analog clocks!). And yes, Audi and Lexus interiors can be things of beauty. But I don't think the TL interior is wildly outclassed by any of 'em. Especially the BMW 3. Quality materials but a bit of a depressing presentation.

    YMMV and does... :)

    A fond, but bittersweet adieu to my '13 Jaguar XF. And so, I present this laurel, and hearty handshake to the new boss; '21 Audi A7 PHEV. '09 Jag XK , '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco ; all special to me. And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... I've yet to buy a car I didn't like. Although, do I really want to drive a car that would have someone such as me as its owner?

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I suck at posting links, sorry. It says that the A5 will be introduced at the Geneva show. The suspension/setup will have selections for understeer, or oversteer. I guess done electronically, via a switch?

    Anyway, cool car. Can't wait to read about. Anyone else excited, Mark?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Especially the BMW 3. Quality materials but a bit of a depressing presentation.

    I only like the 3 series in tan leather with the natural wood finish. I'm not a fan of the black\black\black combo of many recent BMWs, its like a cave.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'd say the new G's interior is actually better than the M's.

    It definitely is from a styling standpoint, I haven't been in the new G to see if the materials are. They got rid of the big ATM buttons for one thing.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I may be wrong, but I think the praise for the G interior is for the new, refreshed for '07 iteration.

    I would agree, the '05 G wasn't exactly in the near LPS league. And, were it not for the torque steer (my wife and I had tested a fully optioned manual transmission version of the Acura -- on a rainy day) well the Acura probably would have been a contender, even without AWD.

    The thing had torque steer second only to an old Saab Aero we tested -- the steering wheel simply made "suggestions" to the front end. Sometimes it took the suggestion, on a rain slicked road, not so much.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Here's the A5 link: Klik Here for A5 Spy
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    "That Audi number is somewhat of a letdown, such a car should sell much better than that."

    Comparos, such as that in Car and Driver this month, might, gradually shift place of A6 in minds of LPS buyers. MB E63 AMG and Audi S6 rated well ahead of M5. S6 summed up as "a fast and sexy sweetheart priced to near irresistibility." Main negative: underpowered. Mark, can you put some pressure on Audi to get us further up the ladder in the HP/torque race?
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    thanks Mark.

    Also, I started a thread on future Audi platforms if interested.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    True, but magazine comparos only carry so much weight. There are probably hundreds of thousands of car buyers that don't have a clue about C&D comparos or any other magazines for that matter. Audi's biggest problem is their image and marketing, because the cars are excellent by most measurements. Audi just needs more exposure, to get on more luxury car buyers shopping lists. We can debate the how all day long, but that is what they need.

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The thing had torque steer second only to an old Saab Aero we tested -- the steering wheel simply made "suggestions" to the front end. Sometimes it took the suggestion, on a rain slicked road, not so much.

    The idea of the Type-S 6MT is just that much scarier. Somebody should do a comparison between that and the 9-3 Viggen to see who wins the award for worst torque steer ever. The TL's other big problem is its turning circle, 40ft in standard guise. I'm sure the Type-S is much worse. My wife's RX300 was about the same, that's the one thing she always hated about the car.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 3,856
    I agree that the TLs turning radius is a (minor) annoyance, it is large! As is torque steer, which by all reports is much, much less noticeable in the slushbox TL vs. the stick. I believe that every review mentions that fact. But, as a FWD driver all my life, it doesn't really bother me. I am just aware of it, so if it's time to light 'em up, well, I hold on! I've driven/owned Saabs, all naturally aspirated 4s, so torque steer really was never an issue there...!

    Yes, the new G interior appears to be a big step up in my limited experience with it. But I still think the TL interior can play in the same ballpark as any of its peers. Except, of course, for the CTS. That is just in a league of its own, interior style/material-wise! :P

    My next car, maybe it's time to let go and go RWD: BMW 3 Convertible or rumored Lexus IS Convertible???

    A fond, but bittersweet adieu to my '13 Jaguar XF. And so, I present this laurel, and hearty handshake to the new boss; '21 Audi A7 PHEV. '09 Jag XK , '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco ; all special to me. And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... I've yet to buy a car I didn't like. Although, do I really want to drive a car that would have someone such as me as its owner?

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Until very recently, Audi, [non-permissible content removed] for tat, was bringing cars to market with BMW numbers under the hood, at least.

    The BMW 530 was making do with 225HP while the A6 was offering 255HP -- this disparity went beyond 7 months as I recall.

    The Lexus GS was really low and late to the HP race and despite a 300HP (rated) V6, the Acura RL couldn't get no respect in the grunt dept either.

    Audi, across the line, has played in the same HP league as its rivals most of the time. Indeed, for a long time an Audi 4.2L A6 was the same price as a i6 Bimmer 5 series.

    And, the Audi S6 in the comparo's is HOW many thousands OVER $10,000 less than the BMW and Merc?

    Audi still came in first and second in two auto mags comparos both times bettering in the rankings the BMW.

    Audi seems to be waiting to offer us an RS6 again, but one can only speculate that when it does it will offer wrath of god kind of HP and torque, once again upping the ante.

    Why wait?

    I dunno.

    The RS4 seems to be well respected and reviewed yet, to me, it is hard to justify its price.

    The S6, by comparison, seems like a bargain.

    My current burning concern is there is no counter-punch to the "35" BMW engine.

    The V10 S6 is the new winna and champeen from my point of view especially at its price point.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I agree that Audi's biggest problem is exposure.

    I just sent an email to AOA railing them for their ridiculous ED program. It's not even close to BMW's in price, or content yet BMW is their biggest competitor.

    I think they shoot themselves in the foot often times by not being competitive with leasing, and such.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I've always believed that if more people knew about and test drove an Audi they'd buy.

  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    I test drove A6 three times against BMW 530xi and picked BMW every time although it will cost me almost $12K more. Audi single mode "old lady" Servotronic steering kills the entire otherwise great car. See, if I don't want driver's car, there is always reliable, luxurios Lexus GS350 AWD. If I didn't buy Lexus, then there was a reason to that. Audi offers Lexus-like steering (and somewhat handling) and yet claims it competes with BMW. Yeah, right. On the other hand, if Audi wants to be "German Lexus", then make the car as reliable as Japanese. If you can't, then offer something exclusive so people will tolerate lower reliability and higher price.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I read the line "single mode 'old lady' Servotronic steering kills the entire otherwise great car" with keen interest.

    You see, in 2005, after months of test driving cars from Europe, Japan and the US, we came to find that both BMW and Audi had some vehicles we could really enjoy. The BMW sub-venting machine was offering a $47K vehicle for $581 per month for 36 months 45K miles with no upfront money essentially. Audi for a less than $45K vehicle was about $100 more, same deal.

    We liked the BMW just fine and, well, the $100 was enough motivation.

    A series of back to back test drives in BMW's without Servotronic led us to configure and order a new BMW EXACTLY as we wanted it. We did not, however, order the car with Servotronic.

    A friend of ours who worked as an intern at the local BMW dealership told us we should have ordered the car with Servotronic which would "transform" the car from good to great. A further google of Servotronic, BMW+Servotronic, etc, led us to specific reviews of Servotronic equipped vehicles and specific reviews of the car we had ordered with Servotronic.

    For example, "The optional Servotronic steering is flat-out wonderful. It's speed-sensitive, adding more assist at low speeds, and invisibly altering the steering ratio, so the car turns more with less steering input. Parallel-parking is a breeze, as are quick, mid-block U-turns. As speed increases, assistance diminishes and the ratio slows, making for good on-center feel and sure lane changes. Perhaps most telling about the Servotronic steering is its transparency; unless a driver moves directly from the [Servotronic equipped BMW] to another vehicle without the feature and suddenly has to crank in more steering at slow speeds, it'll likely not be noticed at all."

    At the time, I had a 2003 Audi allroad that was coming off lease. One of the things the Audi lacked was road speed sensitive steering boost. Indeed, it seemed, in the Audi, that the steering boost was ENGINE speed sensitive. I guess the theory is that when the car is in the first two or three gears (mine was a 6 speed manual) the RPM's are higher hence the boost would be higher at lower speeds.

    Sort of true. But the thing is, as the Audi went faster and faster (road speed), the RPM's even with the 6 speed also climbed above 2,000 and the effect was [apparently] the steering boost remained. This, then, might account for an "old lady" personality in any car so equipped.

    I cannot verify that this 2003 Audi called this Servotronic. Indeed, Servotronic is typically capitalized because it is a technology that Audi, BMW and other manufacturers purchase and implement on their vehicles.

    My experience with our new BMW as of May, 2005 was that "Servotronic" was a major improvement in road feel at speed and a welcome assist at low, slow or no speed. We were able to alter our ordered car to ADD Servotronic steering since our order was less than a week old.

    When I then ordered a new Audi A6 3.2, I noted the brochure specified that Servotronic (capitalized and trade marked) steering came standard in US bound versions of this, the latest and newest generation of Audi A6's.

    My impression is that BMW charges extra (not much in the case of our 2005 BMW) for Servotronic and that many of the dealer's agents (like our intern friend) know that it is a transforming (in a positive sense) technology that they, for their own personal BMW's, would not forego.

    "OLD LADY?" heck, I don't know if there is "BMW Servotronic" and "Volvo Servotronic" and "Audi Servotronic," or not, but I do know that our two 2005 MY German cars both have Servotronic and that a back to back drive with a BMW that has it vs one that does not is eye opening. Drive the Audi A6 with it and a BMW without it and the BMW feels "less nimble."

    Now, does this rise to the characterization of "old lady"? I guess this may be in the hands and arms of the individual, but I would urge anyone buying one of these cars to check off the Servotronic option (if such is on an option list), NOT avoid it.

    With only these experiences and the reviews of some folks who write about cars for a living as my guide, I return to the question, is there such a thing as "servotronic" and "Servotronic" steering and that one implementation (Audi's apparently) is "old lady" like and others' not so much? :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Some auto reviewers, like Clarkson, have complained that regular Audis lack road feel. I dont remember seeing comments about Audi steering being too light and over-boosted. The steering didn't feel that way to me in the Audis I've driven. I certainly wouldn't call them the "German Lexus". The Phaeton is the closest thing there is to that.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    The little seat time I've had in the A8/A6, led me to the conclusion that the steering felt a little "over boosted" for my taste. However, the overall traits of the car, more than make up for this IMO.

    I've thought that in the Q7 as well. Now the X5 [07] has wonderful steering, but is to "enthusiastic" [nervous] IMO to make it a worthy, long road trip vehicle.

    I think Mercedes gets bashed a lot for heavy steering, with no feel, but that's what makes them great touring cars. No need for constant corrections.

    All of these are a better alternative to Lexus which is like eating a fine meal, on a paper plate. [with an excellent waiter]
  • allagarooallagaroo Member Posts: 88
    I have a '03 A6 2.7T coming off lease shortly and fully intended to get another Audi. I'm not, partially because the lease cost is up almost 200 per month and primarily because I can get competitive AWD cars for less money. The 530Xi was app.$50 a month less due to higher residuals. I thought the Audi steering at low speeds was too light and didn't have the road feel of my '03. I didn't have the opportunity to test it at higher speeds. The engine didn't feel as quick as my twin turbo that reached max torque at 1800RPM. The M35X was quick , better technology, better handling, far less money to lease($120 per month less than the Audi) but didn't have the refinement and "planted feeling" of the Quattro. The GS 350 is fast with numb steering, small but very quiet and refined feeling. Frankly, other than the technology, I liked driving my current Audi better than any of them. Leaning towards the M! Cost, handling, steering, tech. I don't mention looks because that is individual preference.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My situation almost exactly when I plunked down a deposit to order an M35X.

    Lower lease payments, MORE technology (don't know about "better," though) and "close enough" to German feel for jazz (at $200 per month less, hell yes!)

    Then Audi, for an almost $3K more expensive model came in UNDER the Infiniti price on the lease -- and "all I had to do" was threaten to buy the Infiniti, which I sort of already had done. The phone rang, the dealer said "what will it take and some $200 in monthly payment melted away as if by magic.

    That was then, this may be different.

    But, I came off a 2003 allroad with a mo pay of about $790 (including tax) and went to a $53,286 A6 for about $640 including tax. The Infiniti was $677 same deal.

    The Audi, the German cars generally, have a feel, a taughtness and with Audis expertise in AWD an "edge" that no Infiniti (at this point), no matter how high up the food chain doesn't quite match.

    Yet, to be clear, the Infiniti was close to that BMW/Audi feel, so close that for the price diff the Infiniti went from being #2 to #1 and ONLY when Audi dropped the price per mo did my former #1, return to #1.

    My Audi A6 3.2 with all options save sport suspension :cry: is the best Audi I have ever had in almost every way. My most loved and fun Audi, however, remains my 1995 S6 -- but from a technology, quality and fit and finish standpoint, the C6 A6 is lightyears ahead of the '95. There was just something about that RUSH of power from the 5 cylinder 20v turbo, that causes me to mist up.

    In other words, I hear you, I was there, I've been there and done that. If Audi will come down in price for you would you reconsider? :shades:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Leaning towards the M! Cost, handling, steering, tech. I don't mention looks because that is individual preference.

    If you can, try and spend a few hours with the M on a highway. The M is a blast on curvy two-lanes, but its highway ride and noise levels are definitely not for everybody.
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    "Servotronic" is Audi name, "Active steering" is BMW, etc. Actually, almost all high end cars have variable assist. However, the difference is in software, i.e. how much assist is there at certain speed. BMW steering gets harder faster than A6. A6 gets good feel at highway speeds, but feels anemic at 25 - 40 mph. On the ather hand, variable assist in S6 is excellent and the only difference, I believe, is in software that defines how much assist you get at which speed.

    When you enter turn at a speed in A6 steering has one feel. Speed drops as you turn so when upon the exit you are returning wheel to the neutral position, steering has completely different feel. Quite odd feeling. I didn't feel that say, in Acura RL, which supposedly also has variable assist.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've hated every experience I've had with Active Steering. Zero road feel, and the variable ratio kept throwing me off course. No thanks, regular BMW steering is just fine.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Servotronic is an Audi name? Servotronic is a purchased technology, Audi and BMW purchase it from ZF (and anyone else who wants BRAND NAME Servotronic or Servotronic II does too -- fur instance Cadillac.)

    OK, if this is wrong and if your assertion is the proper case, wouldn't you think BMW would avoid using that name or if they did, they would have to give credit where credit is due?

    E.g., ESP is a Bosch product (but it was, according to the Mercedes fine print, developed in "cooperation" with Mercedes.)

    So, one configures a new BMW X3 and right there pops up Servotronic (not Audi Servotronic) as an optional extra -- $250. Configure a new 3 series and for $1275 you can opt for Active Steering.

    Ask the BMW dealer (and I did just an hour ago) what the difference is, and the first quip is, "about $1000."

    But seriously?

    No, they are not identical, Active Steering does two things, Servotronic does one, Active Steering effectively incorporates Servotronic (not an Audi or BMW invention apparently.) Here is what you gets when you checks the option box for Active Steering: Servotronic which is ROAD SPEED sensitive boost, the lower the road speed the higher the boost and vice versa, with Active Steering you also get ratio variability. As the car changes road speed the speed at which the wheel turns changes. At one speed a 1/4 turn of the steering wheel yields "X" turn of the road wheels, at a different speed, it may take 1/2 a turn of the steering wheel to generate "X" turn of the road wheels, at yet another speed, it may only take 1/8 a turn to generate "X" turn of the road wheels.

    Servotronic, according to the BMW sales guy is a HUGE improvement over non Servotronic set ups since it decreases boost as the road speed increases (the opposite of previous generations of "power steering" which generally remained linear or simply changed in step with engine RPM.)

    Our BMW rep says Active Steering is an acquired taste and that Servotronic over a non-Servotronic set up feels "just right" (to him, obviously.)

    Reading test reports of BMW models that were offered with OPTIONAL Servotronic, one can glean a message, Servotronic is a "wonderful" set up. Test reports praising the Servotronic steering can be found for the X3, X5 and M5. Other reports, less complimentary, can be found, too -- refering here to Active Steering.

    Maybe both set ups are an acquired taste. The praise for the new S8's implementation and last year's M5 Servotronic implementation can be googled with ease.

    Yet, if you do not drive back to back to back the same model with and without and then again with, you would be hard pressed to notice the boost differences, since the boost declines slowly as road speed rises.

    The effect, once you become aware of what it feels like both ways, is better highway response without a rise in effort at low speed or when stopped.

    BMW is moving all their vehicles to Active Steering. The interesting thing is, at this point, is that the code to special order Servotronic is one lower than the Active Steering option, making one wonder if the current price of Active Steering isn't the aspect that is over-boosted.

    The US Audi A6 comes standard with Servotronic and the software that controls it seems to be quite like the software that controls the BMW implementation of Servotronic.

    The Party Line:

    Speed-proportional variable ratio steering from ZF

    "The best steering feel is always at your fingertips, regardless of the conditions. ZF Servotronic steering incorporates speed-sensitivity to provide agile steering for easier manoeuvrability at low speed and greater feedback and stability at higher speeds."

    The full report: and I swear I did not make this up!
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    I left my M with a stereo installer who put in a bunch of is a much nicer ride on the long interstate runs, yet you still hear the engine when you push it. I can hear the stereo better, and the voice recognition at speed is more reliable, too.
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    BMW system seems to be different as it is not changing torque required to turn the wheel and rather changes ratio.

    BMW Active Steering

    Don't confuse this with common variable-assist power steering, which merely makes the wheel feel lighter at slow speeds and firmer when going fast. The technology also links up with an electronic stability-control system for further advantage: If the car senses it's about to skid, an electric motor can automatically apply a subtle countersteer to stabilize the car.

    That's the difference: steering wheel still has meaty feeling, you just need to rotate it less. In A6 feel of the steering get lighter and ligher the slower you go. Sounds like standard variable assist to me.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    You are correcto-mundo! The A6 has Servotronic, the slower you go the greater the boost. Servotronic II by ZF apparently (since I have not driven a car with this) changes both the force required based on road speed and the reaction to steering wheel motions (also releated to road speed.)

    Audi, BMW, Cadillac, LandRover, Volvo all use Servotronic, some applications (in some models) use Servotronic II.

    I think I would like Servotronic II, but several car magazines and our BMW salesrep seem to say it is an acquired taste. Some of the magazines have even called Active Steering maddening.

    Since it, at this point, isn't free, I would suggest to anyone that they first test cars with and without it. It is, apparently, more and more likely that Servotronic (one) is making its way into more and more models from many manufacturers. I would suspect if ActiveSteering or whatever ZF calls their version when it is marketed to a willing buyer catches on, we'll see ever lighter steering feel and very little steering wheel input needed (at slow speeds) to cause a large turn in.

    I do feel the road -- in this technology (Servotronic I) -- unlike the GM and Chryco products I grew up with in the 60's which had super boosted steering that felt like I wasn't turning a darn thing and any road feel was probably my imagination.

    I will keep digging, but "if" Servotronic II is the underlying technology for Active Steering, it certainly appears that it varies both the torque and the ratio based on road speed. Cadillac literature actually uses the Roman Numeral II after the word Servotronic to describe, essentially, what is Active Steering.

    One of the road tests of a BMW using this technology claimed ActiveSteering added "numbness" or subtracted road feel. Perhaps that is what you are commenting on?

    Going from a 2003 Audi to a 2005 Servotronic equipped BMW X3 then to another Servotronic equipped Audi, I enjoyed what I would characterize as "increased and improved responsiveness." Servotronic II seems (on paper) like it might be the best of all worlds -- unfortunately, at this time, the 530xi and the 3 series x's cannot be had with ActiveSteering, but the X3 can be had with Servotronic I and the X5 with ActiveSteering (with the sport package option.)


    Audi, on the other hand, will offer sport suspension (and remember with a 530xi you cannot get a sport suspension, but you can get a sport package that changes the seats and wheels) and Servotronic on their AWD cars (DOH!)

    A 535xi with a sport suspension ought to be a fantastic car, perhaps an even better choice with THAT engine than the current V8's BMW offers.

    After having driven the 335i, I am a believer in the new turbos from BMW -- and I would, I suspect, want one with Servotronic I or Active Steering if such would be offered.
  • allagarooallagaroo Member Posts: 88
    If the Audi lease came down $200 per month I would seriously consider it but I doubt if it will. My salesman retired last month and i wanted to order a fully equipped '07 A6 3.2. from him before he left. he knew I had a problem with the increased cost and was considering M35 so he worked at $600 over invoice which translated to $797/month. All leases are 36 months. I was paying $568 for my '03. I think I can get the M35X for mid 600's and GS350AWD for high 600's. The reports on the M's nav system and back up camera are very positive. I'm not sure how the sound systems compare. If the Audi had kept the twin turbo at 300HP I would have paid the increase. I love the acceleration of the GS350 but don't know if I can live with the steering and small trunk. Need to make a decision soon!!!!!!!!!! :confuse:
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    "If the Audi lease came down $200 per month I would seriously consider it"

    What acounts for the extra $150/month on the Audi over the M35? Interest rate (money factor) or sales price, or both?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    One of the road tests of a BMW using this technology claimed ActiveSteering added "numbness" or subtracted road feel. Perhaps that is what you are commenting on?

    C&D absolutely hated it in their 645i test. They called it "the ultimate driving simulation".
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Yeah, I hear you, but wanna bet something like this will make its way across many of the LPS car in the near future?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah, I hear you, but wanna bet something like this will make its way across many of the LPS car in the near future?

    Oh I'm sure it will. Now that they pretty much all have electric steering, the "next big thing" seems to be variable ratio. That is except for Infiniti, who seem to be more interested in steering with the rear wheels. Nissan has been playing around with that for a very long time.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,132
    "A 535xi with a sport suspension ought to be a fantastic car, perhaps an even better choice with THAT engine than the current V8's BMW offers" - markcincinnati

    BMW's press kit ( yesterday ) confirms the 535i & 535xi.
    The "Updated Styling" ( in the few pictures I have seen ) does not make the 5 any more arttractive to MY eyes, but YMMV.
    - Ray
    Looking forward to test driving the RWD version . . .
    2020 BMW M340i
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    You know, this whole breathed on I6 engine thing has got me to wondering. Would it be possible to transplant one of the new mills from the 335i/535i into a late E39 5-Series? Geez, what I wouldn't give to have my old 2002 530i with that mill stuffed under the hood. ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Wouldn't just adding some turbos or a supercharger be a lot easier? Its not as if the 335 engine is anything more than the 3.0L with turbos on it. It seems a little silly to transplant an entire engine for just that. Since overall displacement is the same though, I don't see how the 335 engine could have any trouble fitting in the space large enough for the 540i and M5.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Trust me, it's WAY more complicated than a simple blower installation. Consider the following points:

    1) The engine in the 2002 E39 was the previous style (and in fact many years old in its life cycle) aluminum block with the cast iron sleeves. Decent for its purpose, but hardly as robust as the new aluminum core/magnesium shell composite block that debuted with the introduction of the E90.
    2) Factory built turbocharged engines are typically reinforced (over that of the normally aspirated siblings) with the following goodies:
    - 2a) Higher strength crank, rods and pistons
    - 2b) Rod based oil squirters to cool the piston domes
    - 2c) Considerably greater cooling capabilities such as:
    - - 2cA) Larger radiator and the necessary plumbing
    - - 2cB) Additional and/or larger oil coolers and the necessary plumbing
    - - 2cC) Large size intercooler(s) and the necessary plumbing
    - - 2cD) Extra coolant plumbing to the bearings on the turbine houseing to keep them cool, especially at shutdown
    - 2d) Significant software remapping
    - 2e) Revised/more robust valve train
    - 2f) Higher flow intake and exhaust manifolds (2 in the case of the 335i)

    Did BMW do all of the above to the 335i engine? Probably. Would I trust the (bored out to within an inch of its life) 3.0 liter mill from an E39 to withstand the rigors of a 300 (320-340 by all accounts) HP turbocharging application? Not a chance. While the old 3.0 liter mill was certainly a good and robust engine for its intended output, there is only one word to describe what would happen to that engine when an intake charge 150% of design spec was fed into it. KABOOM! ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250

    After reading your post, I went to the BMW USA web site under Future Vehicles and read the overview and press release on the new 5 series.

    Does the press kit you mentioned have any additional information than the web site?

    In the overview, when describing the 550i sport package, they say " ... new 19” double spoke alloy wheels (non run-flat) ... " Does anyone know if this implies that versions other than the 550i SP will have RFTs?

  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,132
    "Does the press kit you mentioned have any additional information than the web site? "

    So far, I have only seen a batch of additional photographs - that I do not yet see on the web site.
    - Ray
    Semi-happy with my run-flats....
    2020 BMW M340i
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    An engine doesn't have to be made out of exotic metals to handle some serious boost. Take the Toyota 2JZ-GTE for example. Its an iron block, aluminum head SOHC straight six that dates back to the early '90s. Hardly state of the art. Normally aspirated it made 225hp. With twin turbos, it could do 500hp without serious modification. I know the S2000's engine can do well over 300hp with just 2.2L, and Honda did not design it with forced induction in mind.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "An engine doesn't have to be made out of exotic metals to handle some serious boost."

    Agreed, however, the old BMW engine was more than a little long in the tooth. Comparing an iron block Toyota mill or or the very high revving S2000 is rather apples to oranges. I've never torn one of the old 3.0 liter BMW engines down so I cannot speak from first hand knowledge, however, as I understand it, its been bored out to the point where keeping three hundred plus HP contained would be more than a little hard on head gaskets and such.

    Regardless, even if I was playing with one of the new mills I still wouldn't breath on it without a serious internal rework, including a lower mechanical compression ratio. Long story short, the only real way I'd ever attempt this would be to find a totalled 335i with the drive train still intact. Realistic? Probably not. :-(

    Best Regards,
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    I want 535d xi
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    A 6-Speed 535d SP (sans "x") sounds great to me too, especially given that I'm driving nearly 100 miles per day. That said, given the 300 (plus) hp on tap from the twin turbo gasser, oooh, I'd have a difficult time passing that one up. ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 197,739
    I read that the 535i will be here in March!

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  • allagarooallagaroo Member Posts: 88
    The Audi was app.$7200 more similarly equipped. Audi had a lower MF. Infiniti had a slightly higher residual.

    GUESS WHAT!!!!!!!
    Audi is now offering a $2500 owner loyalty on A6's until 3/5/07.
    36/12 50% res. .00027 MF. Added in Audi maintenance for $550 which raises res.1% to 51%. Added 18" wheels and ordered a blk/blk. May miss the acceleration of the M but there is someting about the "planted" secure feeling of the Quattro Audi that I wanted. With the wheels($900) paying $app.$%5 month less than before.
    I'm excited!!!!!!
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