If the reviewer's conclusory passages were deleted from this comparison, most readers of this board would rank the cars very differently based on the stated observations and perceptions. It appears to me the order should be (1) M45 (2) GS 430 (3) RL.
Further, the reviewer shows no real awareness he's comparing apples to oranges with the M45 being "stripped."
Thank you for rewriting the article and rankings for everyone here.
I'll take the reviewers comments and rankings as presented. You would make a great scientist, perform a test and then ignore the results and rerank the results based on a bunch of posts on a discussion board.
Let's give the reviewers their due, they spent a week with the cars and had objective evaluation criteria.
I am not an Infiniti, Lexus, or Acura sales person, nor am I am owner. In fact, I own an MBZ, which is not all that reliable, but I still like the car.
All of the issues that I mentioned can be found at Audiworld, plain and simple.
"You would make a great scientist, perform a test and then ignore the results and rerank the results based on a bunch of posts on a discussion board."
I am a scientist, and we all know that scientific results can often be interpreted differently. IMO, it is best we leave science out of car discussions.... Here, what we have is a difference in opinions. Personally, I haven't driven any of these cars (yet) so I'd withhold my opinion on the ranking. But for those who have driven all of these cars, they should provide their ranking.
Now, I am a huge Lexus fan, but after driving the GS300 and M35, there is no way I'd rank the Lex above the Infiniti. The M beats the GS hands down ! Of course, imo.
Now, you have your 4 point spread right there. Now if their title read $50K Luxury Sedan Comparison Test. May be those recommended ratings could be justified. But this was a "$50K Sport Sedans From Japan Comparison Test" and their primary gripe with M45 was it is too sporty.
So their objective rating wasn't really all that objective.
I don't think any of these comparison tests are fully objective. If not why would Infiniti win most of Motor trend's comparos (at least since the G35) & lose all Edmund's comparos.
I do admit being a G35 owner I am biased towards Infiniti, but so are these reviewers.
Edmunds tells Infiniti that they are doing a $50k SPORT sedan comparo, so Infiniti gives them their sportiest sedan closest to $50k (a M45 Sport with no options).
Then Edmunds gives the win to the LEAST sporty $60k vehicle. Sure makes a lot of sense...
I figured it out. Edmunds' reviewer (male) wrote the basic article, noting relevant guy things like power, braking, handling, steering. Then, perhaps from fatigue, illness, or whatever, he let his wife or girlfriend finish off with the conclusions, and she really, really liked that cushy leather and pretty wood in the Lexus and Acura.
Lesson to Infiniti: forget about the metal bits and get to the stylin'.
Hah, I think beating one would be pretty simple on any road with some curves, considering the GS430 would be "coming to a literal dead stop on a tight turn" with the nanny system blaring. What a great sports sedan. Again, WHY did this car win?
I feel compelled to reply to these statements on the new A6.
The listed "issues" are only problems that, in most instances, one person has experienced. They have not been evaluated and verified by any mechanics. For instance, the "memory defragmentation" was a theory one C6 owner had for his MMI working slowly at times. It has not been investigated in any way and the blanket statement that A6's have memory defragmentation problems is ridiculous.
As to the keyless entry problems, there are few reports on AW about that (in fact, there are many posts here on Edmunds in the RL section on their own similar problems). Many of the supposed issues resolved when the owner actually placed his/her foot on the brake (required to activate the keyless button). I.e. it was the owner's lack of understanding, and not a mechanical issue.
As to the assertation that keyless entry can actually "start the car" while your gone, that's just ludicrous. How a computerized key that allows activation of the actual starter button can press the button by itself is beyond me. That would be the same as saying the key started the steering column in a regular car. The keyless feature only allows the car to be started by pressing a button. It does not start the car itself and never could. Again, spreading unsubstantiated rumors, IMO.
I'm not saying that the C6 A6 has had a spotless, error-free debut, but to post a blanket statement alleging the posts are actual issues when they have not been investigated at all is inappropriate and a disservice to the forum readers.
I've had my car now for 4 months and am loving it. I have not experienced any of the "issues" listed above, nor has my salesman heard of any such problems with any of the other cars sold in the area.
All right, I'm throwing my "unbiased" (large tongue in cheek) opinion into the mix here. Unbiased because I have already purchased and picked up my new M45 Sport. I have test driven the other vehicles mentioned in this report along with a few others though. So my unbaised opinion is... "What was this guy smoking?" Ok, now that I have that off of my chest, I do understand that any car review has a lot of subjective observations in them. And, I know that what I look for in a vehicle is different than what someone else might. But, having driven all of these vehicles now (and purchasing the M45), I am totally perplexed by this outcome. The M45 has got to be the best Sports Sedan in this group. I agree with other posters that the edge in this review could go another way if you were looking for the best luxury sedan (not that I would concede that very easily on my opinion). However, there is no way these cars exceed the M in the Sports market. As a quick aside, I recently posted in the M35/M45 forum that I was amazed at how smooth of a sports suspension this car has. I drive over a very rough railroad crossing everyday, and the first time I crossed this track in the new M, I was surprised how nice the encounter was. Add to that my impression of handling on a few small mountain roads I get to traverse, and I am truly amazed.
We all know the M won that comparo. How can you name the GS as #1 when Edmunds admitted that there is no way to stop the car smoothly with its brakes? And a car that professes to be a sports-sedan with a stability system that you cannot shut off designed to shut the car down when you attempt to take a turn the way a sports sedan should? Where's the exhilaration? What in heaven's name were they thinking? That we only drive fast in a straight line? Even so, we would still have to use those cursed brakes which nobody from Edmunds was really happy about.
It's actually kinda entertaining to read the "Second Opinion".
The first guy said that he was almost regretting giving the GS the winning points. The second guy implied that if he were younger he'd have picked the M, but now that he was getting more senior and bald, his pick is the GS.
Another nitpick about the review: based on my experience, the M is roomier than the GS by almost any measure, especially with regard to front seat headroom and rear seat legroom. Somehow, it didn't get any extra points for that.
I agree with the review regarding refinement though. The GS is definitely more refined than the M.
It seems to me that Infiniti is more in touch with the real world in the $50,000 sports sedan segment than Lexus. I truly hope they sell a lot of M35/45's. Thanks to competition from the G35 and Acura Tl, I can lease a 2005 BMW 330i now for what I leased a 2002 325i for 3 years ago when BMW seemed to be "the only game in town." and had very high money factors to prove it. But that was a long time ago. Go Infinity!
Granted the G35 has given BMW some much-needed competition, but probably the major reason you can now get a good deal on a 2005 330i lease is because the 2006 redesign will be out in a couple of months!
Very interesting reading the fallout about Edmunds comparo. I must say that overall I'm not surprised. I think the GS won (without even have read it yet) because it provided the best combination of everything, but not the best at anything? Make sense? I hope I'm explaining this correctly.
The M45 has me leaning towards my theory that Nissan in general is rushing cars to market without nessecary refinement needed to compete against the best in their respective classes, they seem to emphasize sport and hp above all else. Every commercial is about outperforming that and outpowering this.
Lexus will never produce and unrefined car, never. Refinement is their calling card. Edmunds was just won over by this it seems, only to seemingly go against their own criteria (sport) for this test. I think you'll see quite a different outcome with these and the Germans/American entries are tested by other magazines, watch for inevitable C&D comparo.
Now I'll read the article in a few. Anyone see what I'm saying or no?
Yep because "sport" wasn't what they were really looking for considering the outcome.
I couldn't help but think of you reading about how grabby they said the GS430's brakes are. Welcome to the brake by wire brake world. It seems that Lexus hasn't sorted them out either, having the longest stopping distance and being grabby in feel/modulation.
The part of the Edmunds review that focuses on the lack of value in the M35/M45 is a misrepresentation of the truth that borders on a complete journalistic fabrication. As a source of factual automotive information, Edmunds should do some fact checking regarding the truthfulness of their assertions. Any apples to apples price comparison of an M35/45 build to your specifications will be cheaper with equal or better options to the RL and GS. (Power rear sunshade being the only exception since Infiniti only included that in the 10k premium package for no good reason).
While the Edmunds editors may have preferred a well-equipped 6-cylinder as a better value than a entry level 8-cylinder, implying that this makes the RL a better value completely ignores the fact that a well equipped M35 exists. Add the fact the M35 AWD similarly equipped to the RL costs $1500 less and Edmunds is clearly distorting the truth. A lie of omission this large is inexcusable from a trusted source of automotive information.
I still love the forums here at Edmunds. However, I used to regret that Edmunds comparison tests are much less frequent now than 3-4 years ago. After seeing this deceptive comparison, I think Edmunds should leave the comparisons up to the professionals.
"While the Edmunds editors may have preferred a well-equipped 6-cylinder as a better value than a entry level 8-cylinder, implying that this makes the RL a better value completely ignores the fact that a well equipped M35 exists. Add the fact the M35 AWD similarly equipped to the RL costs $1500 less and Edmunds is clearly distorting the truth. A lie of omission this large is inexcusable from a trusted source of automotive information."
Yep, it seems Edmunds and Autoweek (autofile article) are on the same page, forgetting the cars that would possibly beat the RL on value and definitely outperform it at the sametime.
The "real" comparos will be conducted by C&D and Road and Track.
They either should've compared the RL to the M35x and GS300 AWD, or not included it at all. Compared to the V6 league that it actually plays in, the "full options, full price" of the RL seems less of such a "awesome deal". To be honest, Edmunds reviews in general were better 3 or 4 years ago, especially the first drives. The current first drives include essentially NO useful information whatsoever.
Agree with you completely. Lexus has balance and refinement, the best combo of everything. I've mentioned that myself earlier. Also agree with your remarks about Nissan. I've said that Nissan seems to want to be the Japanese Pontiac, stressing power and boy racer styling and very unsubtle touches like "Infiniti" embroidered in large letters on the seat backs, which Edmunds found (and I agree) rather tacky. Lexus would never do that. If anything, Lexus is understated; Infiniti hits you over the head. If Infiniti wants to join the prestige club at the top, they have to adopt the cool and restrained culture that characterizes that class.
Well the IS300 in all fairness was a rush job Toyota for the U.S. market.
I'm curious to know what is unrefined about the RX330, one of Lexus' darlings. I know it has lousy directional stability and dynamics, but unrefined? Unless you're counting those things I just mentioned?
"Add the fact the M35 AWD similarly equipped to the RL costs $1500 less and Edmunds is clearly distorting the truth. A lie of omission this large is inexcusable from a trusted source of automotive information."
I totally agree with you. The M ranked dead last in "features", which accounts for 20% of the scoring, and yet you could load up an M35x similar to the RL and still be about the same price. The M clearly should not have been knocked in the "features" category, when those features are out there at a very good value.
Now, I understand putting up the RL against the M45 and the GS430 if it had similar acceleration as the V8s, but that is simply not the case. In fact, I bet the M35x will outaccelerate the RL. Since they were throwing in the V6 RL into the comparo, why not throw in a loaded $50k M35x. Maybe the M35x will have finished first, and the M45 Sport last...
It really makes me wonder if the reviewers actually do research into these cars.
The GS is clearly a superior vehicle in terms of refinement and ergonmics though, there is no denying that.
On a side note, I was disheartened by how much they found the VDIM to be intrusive. Hopefully, there will be a way to change the setting so that you can "tone" it down in future models and in the IS.
I was also disappointed by the relative acceleration performance of the GS430 vs. the M45. I thought the GS weight advantage and extra gear would make it closer. The GS460 will fix that, no doubt.
Clearly I'm not going to argue in favor of a Lexus or about an SUV. I can't stand them myself, but I was surprised to see anyone say a Lexus was unrefined.
Yes I do consider SUVs in general to have appalling road manners and offensive dynamics, only a precious few FX,Cayenne,Touareg drive worth anything to me.
Bartalk3, I have to take issue with some of your statements.
Nissan/Infiniti is just doing what any good firm in 2nd or 3rd place would do- they are differentiating themselves. Just like Target wants to position themselves as the "upscale" alternative to Wal-Mart. Infiniti wants to be the Japanese BMW. They want to be the performance/luxury Japanese alternative to Lexus' focus on luxury. If Infiniti tried to go up directly point for point against Lexus' models that would probably be a recipe for disaster. The facts speak for themselves, Infiniti's sales have nearly doubled in the last 3 years.
To play catch up in their market segment, Infiniti had had to take some chances- most have worked- the G35 has been a huge hit and sales continue to grow for that model 3 years after introduction. Not everything is a hit however, I think the styling of the FX is overdone. I don't like the Infiniti name stitched on the seats. But big picture the Infiniti strategy is working and the M35/45 will no doubt be another success (the fact the GS/M battle is a toss up speaks volumes- this the 3rd generation tweaked and refined Lexus going against a brand new model).
For Lexus, they are already successful, they already have massive sales and a large following they can afford to "refine" their cars and make "incremental" improvements without taking any chances to offend anyone. I think for Infiniti that similar move to refinement will come in a few years when they too instead of introducing new cars trying to grab market share are introducing the 2nd generation G35, FX, M etc. Then you will see similar efforts to refine from Infiniti like we are seeing from Lexus with the 3rd generation of the GS. This is not to say the existing M is not a great car just to react to the point about Lexus being "more restrained."
Nevertheless, I think you will continue to see Infiniti's outperform Lexus in speed, handling, etc. as that is the fundamental building block of the marketing effort from Infiniti. To have the better speed and handling the trade off is a less cushy ride, etc. This is basically the same dynamic between BMW and M-B that has been going on for decades. Overall, as a fast growing car line, Infniti has had some misses but the positives far outweigh the negatives and the consumers voting with sales agree. But at its core, Infiniti is not trying to out Lexus' Lexus they are going after a similar but more performance oriented customer. I don't think Infiniti is stealing sales so much from Lexus but rather the Europeans and maybe Acura.
As an aside, Acura had the chance for this market position. Going back 3 or 4 years ago, Infiniti was a distant 3rd in the Japanese luxury segment and nobody much thought of them. Acura rested on its laurels and was too hard headed about moving to RWD platforms and bringing in V8s. Now Acura is generally seen not to have the performance of Infiniti or the luxury of Lexus. The main thing Acura brings today is a lower price point (kind of like Infiniti a few years back) and the MDX- I don't think the MDX really has a direct competitor from Infiniti or Lexus once pricing is factored in.
As to your comments about the parent companies, the same dynamic holds- Nissan wants to be the more performance oriented alternative to Toyota. Again there have been some misses (Quest) but mostly hits (see the Altima and the Titan truck). This has really always been true- think of the Z cars back in the 70s- Toyota was not really even in that market segment. What is notable is for about 5-7 years in the mid to late 90s Nissan went into hibernation due to massive financial woes to due missteps from the previous management. What we are seeing today is a revitalized Nissan re-asserting itself in the market place with many new models. They are basically getting back to where they were in the 70s and 80s- a very viable competitor to Toyota albeit smaller.
IMO the key for Nissan/Infiniti is to get their quality/reliability ratings back on track. With all the brand new ground-up new models introduced in the last 36 months and the new plant in MS, quality has suffered. If this is a short term issue (and I think it is) no big deal. I would expect Consumer Reports Auto issue for April 2006 to show some nice improvements as by this year the quailty of all the new models should be refined.
All of this is by no means a gripe at Toyota or Lexus they are the hands down "superbowl" winners in the industry. They are the best of the best but I like underdogs and it is fun to watch a scrappy Nissan/Infinti get back on its feet after looking down for the count about 5 years ago. Plus as I have said before, I like a more performance oriented product so I am very pleased Infiniti has introduced its line-up to the market to give us all an alternative.
Sorry for the long post. I am as much a fan of the industry as the cars themselves.
"Yes I do consider SUVs in general to have appalling road manners and offensive dynamics, only a precious few FX,Cayenne,Touareg drive worth anything to me."
German-car lover, perhaps you haven't driven the X3 yet? If this is not the case, I would thank you for an explanation. Personally, I put the X3 at the top of that heap as a driver's vehicle.
The RX330, in my opinion, has a rough, vibrating idle and too much road noise for a Lexus. In my opinion, the Highlander is a better vehicle as far as smoothness and refinement goes. The RX300 was a much better vehicle than the RX330, in my opinion. It just simply doesn't "feel" like a Lexus, in my opinion.
I have to agree with rboyd4. To say that Infiniti is the Japanese pontiac is a major insult to Infiniti. Pontiac is a rather pathetic company of supposedly "sporty" Chevy rebagdes and until recently "body cladding king of the world". You'll still see miles of those hideous Grand Ams at every airport in the country for many years to come though. Infiniti doesnt make FWD pretenders (...well, not anymore). The M35 and M45 are the ONLY real competitors to the 5 series. What does Pontiac have that competes with BMW anything? Lexus has said they want to compete with BMW, but theres a big difference between saying it and making a product that does it.
As the owner of both an RX330 and LS430 I must disagree with your opinions regarding "a rough, vibrating idle and too much road noise for a Lexus" and "It just simply doesn't "feel" like a Lexus, in my opinion." Compared to my ML 500 the RX330 is as smooth as, well, as Lexus.
A-ha, X5, great vehicle as far as those big elephants go. But IMO BMW did a fantastic job bringing their signature ride and steering to the SUV with the X3. As a matter of fact I think it is the only vehicle in their new lineup that is right on-mission with what we were previously used to seeing from them. It's nonsense-free, a pure driver's vehicle. The only moans I hear about it pertain to its off-road capabilities. But I'm originally from the Bronx. Anyone care to tell me what off-road means? Does that have something to do with all those pothole-laden streets in Riverdale or something?
All this vitriol about Edmunds' biased review of the RL shouldn't surprise. What manufacturers do when they have a 'bomb' - in this case, an unremarkable, but decent 6-cylinder that was sadly mis-priced (and I've noted that in Canada, they added insult to injury by adding another CAD$11K over the US price just to see who would pay it)- is to pull out all the stops with 'journalists' or other pseudo-organs of distribution hype. Now you REALLY know Honda/Acura realizes that it's in trouble with this model. So relax - the "50-something/$70K+ male" demographic these cars are aimed at aren't taking the Edmunds propaganda (designed to salvage some truly ugly sales numbers) too seriously, so why should you??
I don't really disagree with you on any of this. I haven't driven the M cars yet, so everything I say is based on feelings and conjecture. I agree that Infiniti is not trying to out-Lexus Lexus. They tried that with the Q45 and it failed. I would say that Infiniti is to Lexus what Pontiac is to Cadillac. Also Infiniti is obviously appealing to a younger buyer. I am sure when the stats are in, the GS buyers will turn out to be significantly older than the M buyers. As part of that more mature group myself, there's something about the boy racer quality of the Infinti that turns me off. I clearly care more for luxury than speed, Completely subjective, age related, though I certainly wouldn't buy an Avalon. Handling is important. I own a '97 Nissan Maxima SE and love it, but the most recent Maxima I find garish, over the top, ostentatious, tacky, vulgar. Some of that may (I don't know, maybe just a prejudice) have seeped into the G35 and the M's, compared, say, to the quiet "dignity" of the GS.
I believe off-road means when on a highway and you miss your exit, instead of getting off at the next exit and turning around, you just drive across the grassy, rock-filled median and merge into the traffic flow on the other side of the median. Well that's what the SUV's in Tampa do. Breathtaking adventure!
"I would say that Infiniti is to Lexus what Pontiac is to Cadillac." - bartalk3
And I would say: "That statement is an over-the-top knock if I ever heard one." For the love of God man, Pontiac? If you're gonna disparage them at least keep it somewhat reasonable. Say Chrysler.
As far as the age-appeal, I would agree that the Infiniti M is geared toward a younger demographic than the GS...that is, if you are referring to the previous GS. Have you seen the new one? I would say that Lexus is also displaying that "boy racer quality" that turns you off.
Maybe a nice Lincoln LS, or Zephyr (?), can deliver the "quiet dignity" you crave.
I hear where you are coming from. I can't say that I am in love with Nissan/Infiniti styling across the board but I think they will tone things down and hone in a little better in the next couple of years. Sales are way up and profits are way, way up so they now have the resources to start refining the style, etc. now that most of their product line has been rolled out. For the full size trucks Nissan needs to emphasize size and power to compete in this segment as a Japanese player. They learned by Toyota's mistake with the positioning of the Tundra.
Styling has been hit and miss to some extent but not all the models hype this boy racer thing you cite. I think the M looks very acceptable and not over the top in any way with the exception of the stitched name in the seats. Same for the G35 not garish or over the top in any way. Now for the FX or to a lesser extent the Q56, I think they pushed the style envelope a little too far. As it pertains to the M, for my taste, I think the GS looks a little better. But I am not a superficial buyer so, although looks are important, the performance characteristics of the M outweigh the style or incremental luxury of the GS for me.
Although the GS looks quite good and has softer leather, Lexus is not immune to putting their version of style over function. Please note the numerous complaints about the headroom in the GS. Who wants a $50,000 sedan where your buddy cannot sit in the back seat without his head touching the ceiling? Why have a cavernous trunk if as Edmunds says you have to use a "mail slot" to access it? Lexus gets lots of kudos for having an uncluttered dash compared to the M but this is mainly achieved by having a hidden panel that that swings out when you need it. This sounds good in theory but then think about the practical implication of putting the trunk release in this panel. Personally I like having easy and quick access to the trunk release button. I don't want to have to push a button and wait a couple of seconds for a panel to swing out and then push a second button to simply pop the trunk. So sure, at the dealership the look of the GS interior is much cleaner but on a day to day practical basis I, for one, would rather have all the buttons in plain sight and easy to see and manipulate (I am sure not everyone will agree on this).
But even though I am trying to find common ground I cannot quite agree with your Pontiac to Cadillac comparison. Sure this might sort of relate to the Infiniti FX compared to the Lexus RX but for the G35 or the M's I think they are quite comparable to Lexus maybe not quite as luxurious but pretty darn close.
As for the Q, the ironic thing is that when the newest version was introduced I remember two car comparos with the LS and the Q won both times. So, at least as far as Car and Driver etc. was concerned the Q was quite good. I think what killed the most recent Q was indeed the styling. It just did not have the "presence" a car in that price range should have. Relatively speaking the first generation Q sold quite well but Infiniti in the mid to late 90s did not have the resources to effectively expand upon that product line and compete against Lexus.
Infiniti vs. Lexus is a lot more BMW vs. Mercedes than Pontiac vs. Cadillac. Im not even sure what that means, as Pontiac doesnt compete with Cadillac at all. Pontiac has a minivan, and a bunch of mediocre FWD cars. I'm really not seeing the resemblance here. Infiniti has some quirky styling in some cases, (as does BMW) and Infiniti lacks some of the class vs. Lexus (as BMW does vs. Benz) but they make up for it with raw performance and that fun to drive quality that makes people choose a 3 series of a C320.
"All this vitriol about Edmunds' biased review of the RL shouldn't surprise."
Speaking of vitriol. You seem to have some issues. In fact, you sound a bit bitter. Everyone of your posts seems to center around the pricing of the RL in Canada. The price is what it is. Get over it.
If you would like to talk objectively about the merits of the RL or any other car including the M or GS or E or anything else. I'm listening.
I'm wondering what others here think about this new crop of sport/lux sedans (GS/RL/M) in comparison to the 5 series. I just test drove the new GS. I really wanted to like it...lexus reliablity, refinement and all, but the driving dynamics seemed just a bit sluggish IMO. Furthermore, will it actually be a reliable car even tho its a lexus...completely new engine apparently, which worries me a bit.
The review claims that the GS is the best sport sedan from Japan yet it was beat out by the M45 in almost every performance measure. The GS also has poor and grabby brakes and VDIM that cannot be turned off and is too aggressive in its operation. It almost makes the car stop in high performance situations. How in the world can they call a car like this the best from Japan?
Why didn’t they test the M45, non-sport version? It has a smoother ride, is quieter, and can be loaded with all of the features of the GS430 and more. It probably still would have beaten the GS430 in every performance measure. They didn’t bother because they are completely Lexus biased and they seem to dislike everything made by Infiniti.
The reviewers at Edmunds have absolutely no integrity as journalists at all. I cannot believe that they would publish a comparison review with so many flaws in it. I think it is funny that they are getting complete backlash on the forums for their ridiculous and child-like comparison test. The person who did this review should be fired.
They didn't like the G35 that much either when it first came out and it lost in their comparison test as well. But guess what, the G35 was a smash hit for Infiniti and it now selling better than ever. This just shows you Edmunds reviews completely lack credibility.
I too will wait for the "real" comparison tests that will be conducted by Car and Driver and Road & Track.
"I believe off-road means when on a highway and you miss your exit, instead of getting off at the next exit and turning around, you just drive across the grassy, rock-filled median and merge into the traffic flow on the other side of the median. Well that's what the SUV's in Tampa do. Breathtaking adventure!"
Interesting how this forum jumped into macho SUV talk, breaking all the rules. If you are going to do that then I was going to recommend the MDX... better yet...you may as well go full tilt and pitch a "HUMMER" in, complete with reinforced armor side panels.
Back to the cars men. The 2005 RL still stands at the top of the pack in this comparo. In My Opinion
Very well written and concise post #957, and I agree. Infiniti can't out do Toyota at what Toyota does best so they are playing the sport card. I had mentioned this before, but Infiniti is going to be to Lexus what BMW is to Mercedes-Benz, the sportier alternative, which is why Acura and Audi really have a hard time gaining any new ground.
I still think that Nissan is rushing some products to market without that last bit of detail that makes the difference in some cases.
Yes, their quality could be better too especially U.S. made Nissans.
designman,
I have never driven the X3, I couldn't get past the black baby-buggy bumpers or the seemingly cheap interior, compared to ther BMWs. Dynamically I've read mixed reviews. Some say it has a terrible ride, like they said about the first year FX35/45 from Infiniti. I just can't stand SUVs in general so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask. The only ones the tug at me from a styling/drivng standpoint are the FX and Cayenne S. For a regular non-sporty SUV I like the Touareg V8 a bunch. I got over the X5 years ago.
I stopped by the Infiniti dealer here tonight just to take a peek at the M35/45. It is amazing how a car can look so different from an auto show floor (Detroit and Chicago) compared to a dealer's lot and in real life surroundings.
Yes the M is a little boy racerish, but overall it looks much better than either the RL or GS, imo. What I can't stand is the center console that shoves all those ugly buttons into your peripheral vision. I simply can't stand this feature. The doors of the car don't thunk like a German cars either, or like the GS', seemed very flimsy to me. Other than that I predict another winner for Infiniti. Very sporty and both demos were out on test drives so I didn't get a chance to do any driving.
The RL just screams Accord to me and I'm no longer impressed by it. On paper it looked to be a winner, but it isn't imo. A V6 with 300 underperforming horses and a trick Nav system don't make up for down-market styling and other deficiencies all IMO of course.
Comparing the RL to the Accord is an opinion that doesn't wash. I believe you have to own one to understand. I have owned Hondas since 1984. I have owned Acuras since 1992. This 2005 RL is the best ever. No Honda product before ever came close, period!
Comments
Further, the reviewer shows no real awareness he's comparing apples to oranges with the M45 being "stripped."
Pretty disappointing.
I'll take the reviewers comments and rankings as presented. You would make a great scientist, perform a test and then ignore the results and rerank the results based on a bunch of posts on a discussion board.
Let's give the reviewers their due, they spent a week with the cars and had objective evaluation criteria.
Are you an Audi sales person?
I am not an Infiniti, Lexus, or Acura sales person, nor am I am owner. In fact, I own an MBZ, which is not all that reliable, but I still like the car.
All of the issues that I mentioned can be found at Audiworld, plain and simple.
I am a scientist, and we all know that scientific results can often be interpreted differently. IMO, it is best we leave science out of car discussions.... Here, what we have is a difference in opinions. Personally, I haven't driven any of these cars (yet) so I'd withhold my opinion on the ranking. But for those who have driven all of these cars, they should provide their ranking.
Now, I am a huge Lexus fan, but after driving the GS300 and M35, there is no way I'd rank the Lex above the Infiniti. The M beats the GS hands down ! Of course, imo.
Now, you have your 4 point spread right there. Now if their title read $50K Luxury Sedan Comparison Test. May be those recommended ratings could be justified. But this was a "$50K Sport Sedans From Japan Comparison Test" and their primary gripe with M45 was it is too sporty.
So their objective rating wasn't really all that objective.
I don't think any of these comparison tests are fully objective. If not why would Infiniti win most of Motor trend's comparos (at least since the G35) & lose all Edmund's comparos.
I do admit being a G35 owner I am biased towards Infiniti, but so are these reviewers.
Then Edmunds gives the win to the LEAST sporty $60k vehicle. Sure makes a lot of sense...
Lesson to Infiniti: forget about the metal bits and get to the stylin'.
The listed "issues" are only problems that, in most instances, one person has experienced. They have not been evaluated and verified by any mechanics. For instance, the "memory defragmentation" was a theory one C6 owner had for his MMI working slowly at times. It has not been investigated in any way and the blanket statement that A6's have memory defragmentation problems is ridiculous.
As to the keyless entry problems, there are few reports on AW about that (in fact, there are many posts here on Edmunds in the RL section on their own similar problems). Many of the supposed issues resolved when the owner actually placed his/her foot on the brake (required to activate the keyless button). I.e. it was the owner's lack of understanding, and not a mechanical issue.
As to the assertation that keyless entry can actually "start the car" while your gone, that's just ludicrous. How a computerized key that allows activation of the actual starter button can press the button by itself is beyond me. That would be the same as saying the key started the steering column in a regular car. The keyless feature only allows the car to be started by pressing a button. It does not start the car itself and never could. Again, spreading unsubstantiated rumors, IMO.
I'm not saying that the C6 A6 has had a spotless, error-free debut, but to post a blanket statement alleging the posts are actual issues when they have not been investigated at all is inappropriate and a disservice to the forum readers.
I've had my car now for 4 months and am loving it. I have not experienced any of the "issues" listed above, nor has my salesman heard of any such problems with any of the other cars sold in the area.
What in heaven's name were they thinking? That we only drive fast in a straight line? Even so, we would still have to use those cursed brakes which nobody from Edmunds was really happy about.
The first guy said that he was almost regretting giving the GS the winning points. The second guy implied that if he were younger he'd have picked the M, but now that he was getting more senior and bald, his pick is the GS.
Another nitpick about the review: based on my experience, the M is roomier than the GS by almost any measure, especially with regard to front seat headroom and rear seat legroom. Somehow, it didn't get any extra points for that.
I agree with the review regarding refinement though. The GS is definitely more refined than the M.
I truly hope they sell a lot of M35/45's.
Thanks to competition from the G35 and Acura Tl, I can lease a 2005 BMW 330i now for what I leased a 2002 325i for 3 years ago when BMW seemed to be "the only game in town." and had very high money factors to prove it.
But that was a long time ago.
Go Infinity!
The M45 has me leaning towards my theory that Nissan in general is rushing cars to market without nessecary refinement needed to compete against the best in their respective classes, they seem to emphasize sport and hp above all else. Every commercial is about outperforming that and outpowering this.
Lexus will never produce and unrefined car, never. Refinement is their calling card. Edmunds was just won over by this it seems, only to seemingly go against their own criteria (sport) for this test. I think you'll see quite a different outcome with these and the Germans/American entries are tested by other magazines, watch for inevitable C&D comparo.
Now I'll read the article in a few. Anyone see what I'm saying or no?
M
I couldn't help but think of you reading about how grabby they said the GS430's brakes are. Welcome to the brake by wire brake world. It seems that Lexus hasn't sorted them out either, having the longest stopping distance and being grabby in feel/modulation.
M
While the Edmunds editors may have preferred a well-equipped 6-cylinder as a better value than a entry level 8-cylinder, implying that this makes the RL a better value completely ignores the fact that a well equipped M35 exists. Add the fact the M35 AWD similarly equipped to the RL costs $1500 less and Edmunds is clearly distorting the truth. A lie of omission this large is inexcusable from a trusted source of automotive information.
I still love the forums here at Edmunds. However, I used to regret that Edmunds comparison tests are much less frequent now than 3-4 years ago. After seeing this deceptive comparison, I think Edmunds should leave the comparisons up to the professionals.
Yep, it seems Edmunds and Autoweek (autofile article) are on the same page, forgetting the cars that would possibly beat the RL on value and definitely outperform it at the sametime.
The "real" comparos will be conducted by C&D and Road and Track.
M
I'd like to dispute that claim. Please allow me to enter into evidence the IS300 and, to a lesser extent, the RX330.
I'm curious to know what is unrefined about the RX330, one of Lexus' darlings. I know it has lousy directional stability and dynamics, but unrefined? Unless you're counting those things I just mentioned?
M
It's an SUV.
I totally agree with you. The M ranked dead last in "features", which accounts for 20% of the scoring, and yet you could load up an M35x similar to the RL and still be about the same price. The M clearly should not have been knocked in the "features" category, when those features are out there at a very good value.
Now, I understand putting up the RL against the M45 and the GS430 if it had similar acceleration as the V8s, but that is simply not the case. In fact, I bet the M35x will outaccelerate the RL. Since they were throwing in the V6 RL into the comparo, why not throw in a loaded $50k M35x. Maybe the M35x will have finished first, and the M45 Sport last...
It really makes me wonder if the reviewers actually do research into these cars.
The GS is clearly a superior vehicle in terms of refinement and ergonmics though, there is no denying that.
On a side note, I was disheartened by how much they found the VDIM to be intrusive. Hopefully, there will be a way to change the setting so that you can "tone" it down in future models and in the IS.
I was also disappointed by the relative acceleration performance of the GS430 vs. the M45. I thought the GS weight advantage and extra gear would make it closer. The GS460 will fix that, no doubt.
Yes I do consider SUVs in general to have appalling road manners and offensive dynamics, only a precious few FX,Cayenne,Touareg drive worth anything to me.
M
Nissan/Infiniti is just doing what any good firm in 2nd or 3rd place would do- they are differentiating themselves. Just like Target wants to position themselves as the "upscale" alternative to Wal-Mart. Infiniti wants to be the Japanese BMW. They want to be the performance/luxury Japanese alternative to Lexus' focus on luxury. If Infiniti tried to go up directly point for point against Lexus' models that would probably be a recipe for disaster. The facts speak for themselves, Infiniti's sales have nearly doubled in the last 3 years.
To play catch up in their market segment, Infiniti had had to take some chances- most have worked- the G35 has been a huge hit and sales continue to grow for that model 3 years after introduction. Not everything is a hit however, I think the styling of the FX is overdone. I don't like the Infiniti name stitched on the seats. But big picture the Infiniti strategy is working and the M35/45 will no doubt be another success (the fact the GS/M battle is a toss up speaks volumes- this the 3rd generation tweaked and refined Lexus going against a brand new model).
For Lexus, they are already successful, they already have massive sales and a large following they can afford to "refine" their cars and make "incremental" improvements without taking any chances to offend anyone. I think for Infiniti that similar move to refinement will come in a few years when they too instead of introducing new cars trying to grab market share are introducing the 2nd generation G35, FX, M etc. Then you will see similar efforts to refine from Infiniti like we are seeing from Lexus with the 3rd generation of the GS. This is not to say the existing M is not a great car just to react to the point about Lexus being "more restrained."
Nevertheless, I think you will continue to see Infiniti's outperform Lexus in speed, handling, etc. as that is the fundamental building block of the marketing effort from Infiniti. To have the better speed and handling the trade off is a less cushy ride, etc. This is basically the same dynamic between BMW and M-B that has been going on for decades. Overall, as a fast growing car line, Infniti has had some misses but the positives far outweigh the negatives and the consumers voting with sales agree. But at its core, Infiniti is not trying to out Lexus' Lexus they are going after a similar but more performance oriented customer. I don't think Infiniti is stealing sales so much from Lexus but rather the Europeans and maybe Acura.
As an aside, Acura had the chance for this market position. Going back 3 or 4 years ago, Infiniti was a distant 3rd in the Japanese luxury segment and nobody much thought of them. Acura rested on its laurels and was too hard headed about moving to RWD platforms and bringing in V8s. Now Acura is generally seen not to have the performance of Infiniti or the luxury of Lexus. The main thing Acura brings today is a lower price point (kind of like Infiniti a few years back) and the MDX- I don't think the MDX really has a direct competitor from Infiniti or Lexus once pricing is factored in.
As to your comments about the parent companies, the same dynamic holds- Nissan wants to be the more performance oriented alternative to Toyota. Again there have been some misses (Quest) but mostly hits (see the Altima and the Titan truck). This has really always been true- think of the Z cars back in the 70s- Toyota was not really even in that market segment. What is notable is for about 5-7 years in the mid to late 90s Nissan went into hibernation due to massive financial woes to due missteps from the previous management. What we are seeing today is a revitalized Nissan re-asserting itself in the market place with many new models. They are basically getting back to where they were in the 70s and 80s- a very viable competitor to Toyota albeit smaller.
IMO the key for Nissan/Infiniti is to get their quality/reliability ratings back on track. With all the brand new ground-up new models introduced in the last 36 months and the new plant in MS, quality has suffered. If this is a short term issue (and I think it is) no big deal. I would expect Consumer Reports Auto issue for April 2006 to show some nice improvements as by this year the quailty of all the new models should be refined.
All of this is by no means a gripe at Toyota or Lexus they are the hands down "superbowl" winners in the industry. They are the best of the best but I like underdogs and it is fun to watch a scrappy Nissan/Infinti get back on its feet after looking down for the count about 5 years ago. Plus as I have said before, I like a more performance oriented product so I am very pleased Infiniti has introduced its line-up to the market to give us all an alternative.
Sorry for the long post. I am as much a fan of the industry as the cars themselves.
German-car lover, perhaps you haven't driven the X3 yet? If this is not the case, I would thank you for an explanation. Personally, I put the X3 at the top of that heap as a driver's vehicle.
:-)
A-ha, X5, great vehicle as far as those big elephants go. But IMO BMW did a fantastic job bringing their signature ride and steering to the SUV with the X3. As a matter of fact I think it is the only vehicle in their new lineup that is right on-mission with what we were previously used to seeing from them. It's nonsense-free, a pure driver's vehicle. The only moans I hear about it pertain to its off-road capabilities. But I'm originally from the Bronx. Anyone care to tell me what off-road means? Does that have something to do with all those pothole-laden streets in Riverdale or something?
Breathtaking adventure!
And I would say: "That statement is an over-the-top knock if I ever heard one." For the love of God man, Pontiac? If you're gonna disparage them at least keep it somewhat reasonable. Say Chrysler.
As far as the age-appeal, I would agree that the Infiniti M is geared toward a younger demographic than the GS...that is, if you are referring to the previous GS. Have you seen the new one? I would say that Lexus is also displaying that "boy racer quality" that turns you off.
Maybe a nice Lincoln LS, or Zephyr (?), can deliver the "quiet dignity" you crave.
Styling has been hit and miss to some extent but not all the models hype this boy racer thing you cite. I think the M looks very acceptable and not over the top in any way with the exception of the stitched name in the seats. Same for the G35 not garish or over the top in any way. Now for the FX or to a lesser extent the Q56, I think they pushed the style envelope a little too far. As it pertains to the M, for my taste, I think the GS looks a little better. But I am not a superficial buyer so, although looks are important, the performance characteristics of the M outweigh the style or incremental luxury of the GS for me.
Although the GS looks quite good and has softer leather, Lexus is not immune to putting their version of style over function. Please note the numerous complaints about the headroom in the GS. Who wants a $50,000 sedan where your buddy cannot sit in the back seat without his head touching the ceiling? Why have a cavernous trunk if as Edmunds says you have to use a "mail slot" to access it? Lexus gets lots of kudos for having an uncluttered dash compared to the M but this is mainly achieved by having a hidden panel that that swings out when you need it. This sounds good in theory but then think about the practical implication of putting the trunk release in this panel. Personally I like having easy and quick access to the trunk release button. I don't want to have to push a button and wait a couple of seconds for a panel to swing out and then push a second button to simply pop the trunk. So sure, at the dealership the look of the GS interior is much cleaner but on a day to day practical basis I, for one, would rather have all the buttons in plain sight and easy to see and manipulate (I am sure not everyone will agree on this).
But even though I am trying to find common ground I cannot quite agree with your Pontiac to Cadillac comparison. Sure this might sort of relate to the Infiniti FX compared to the Lexus RX but for the G35 or the M's I think they are quite comparable to Lexus maybe not quite as luxurious but pretty darn close.
As for the Q, the ironic thing is that when the newest version was introduced I remember two car comparos with the LS and the Q won both times. So, at least as far as Car and Driver etc. was concerned the Q was quite good. I think what killed the most recent Q was indeed the styling. It just did not have the "presence" a car in that price range should have. Relatively speaking the first generation Q sold quite well but Infiniti in the mid to late 90s did not have the resources to effectively expand upon that product line and compete against Lexus.
Speaking of vitriol. You seem to have some issues. In fact, you sound a bit bitter. Everyone of your posts seems to center around the pricing of the RL in Canada. The price is what it is. Get over it.
If you would like to talk objectively about the merits of the RL or any other car including the M or GS or E or anything else. I'm listening.
The review claims that the GS is the best sport sedan from Japan yet it was beat out by the M45 in almost every performance measure. The GS also has poor and grabby brakes and VDIM that cannot be turned off and is too aggressive in its operation. It almost makes the car stop in high performance situations. How in the world can they call a car like this the best from Japan?
Why didn’t they test the M45, non-sport version? It has a smoother ride, is quieter, and can be loaded with all of the features of the GS430 and more. It probably still would have beaten the GS430 in every performance measure. They didn’t bother because they are completely Lexus biased and they seem to dislike everything made by Infiniti.
The reviewers at Edmunds have absolutely no integrity as journalists at all. I cannot believe that they would publish a comparison review with so many flaws in it. I think it is funny that they are getting complete backlash on the forums for their ridiculous and child-like comparison test. The person who did this review should be fired.
They didn't like the G35 that much either when it first came out and it lost in their comparison test as well. But guess what, the G35 was a smash hit for Infiniti and it now selling better than ever. This just shows you Edmunds reviews completely lack credibility.
I too will wait for the "real" comparison tests that will be conducted by Car and Driver and Road & Track.
Breathtaking adventure!"
Interesting how this forum jumped into macho SUV talk, breaking all the rules. If you are going to do that then I was going to recommend the MDX... better yet...you may as well go full tilt and pitch a "HUMMER" in, complete with reinforced armor side panels.
Back to the cars men. The 2005 RL still stands at the top of the pack in this comparo. In My Opinion
I still think that Nissan is rushing some products to market without that last bit of detail that makes the difference in some cases.
Yes, their quality could be better too especially U.S. made Nissans.
designman,
I have never driven the X3, I couldn't get past the black baby-buggy bumpers or the seemingly cheap interior, compared to ther BMWs. Dynamically I've read mixed reviews. Some say it has a terrible ride, like they said about the first year FX35/45 from Infiniti. I just can't stand SUVs in general so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask. The only ones the tug at me from a styling/drivng standpoint are the FX and Cayenne S. For a regular non-sporty SUV I like the Touareg V8 a bunch. I got over the X5 years ago.
M
Yes the M is a little boy racerish, but overall it looks much better than either the RL or GS, imo. What I can't stand is the center console that shoves all those ugly buttons into your peripheral vision. I simply can't stand this feature. The doors of the car don't thunk like a German cars either, or like the GS', seemed very flimsy to me. Other than that I predict another winner for Infiniti. Very sporty and both demos were out on test drives so I didn't get a chance to do any driving.
The RL just screams Accord to me and I'm no longer impressed by it. On paper it looked to be a winner, but it isn't imo. A V6 with 300 underperforming horses and a trick Nav system don't make up for down-market styling and other deficiencies all IMO of course.
M
Comparing the RL to the Accord is an opinion that doesn't wash. I believe you have to own one to understand. I have owned Hondas since 1984. I have owned Acuras since 1992. This 2005 RL is the best ever. No Honda product before ever came close, period!