Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy

"the A4 will have the best residual of any German car"

Hah! Yeah if BMW and Mercedes didnt exist. Most of the Japanese even beat Audi. Residual value primarily comes from 2 very important factors: reliability which determines future ownership costs, and name plate prestige, the latter of which seems to count more than the former. BMW and Mercedes especially get their awesome residual values from the name plate. Lexus gets theirs from industry leading reliability. Audi has neither. You can pick up a fairly recent Audi A8 for pocket change.

merc1

Well you know a car salesman is the last person to trust about information on a competitor, usually.

A Saab salesman once told me that Saabs were made in Germany "right along with Mercedes and BMW". Imagine my reaction to this.

The best one yet was back in the day when my Aunt was looking at some Biucks. I asked about the Reatta convertible they had on the floor. The salesman told me that it an exclusive model that competed with the Mercedes SL and Porsche 911. I couldn't stop laughing.

M

lexusguy

Even Bob Lutz seems to think that Cadillac is the American BMW (quite a stretch) and that Buick is the American Lexus (a hilarious pipe dream). The LaCrosse may have ripped off some GS cues, but nobody will mistake it for an ES330.

I think the Germans reaction to competition from Japan, or lack of a reaction, is a natural response to being in the lead. They arent used to Japan even being on the radar. They've grown fat, happy, complacent that they rule the world.

Things are very different when you're say Infiniti, out for German blood. Infiniti salesmen (at least in my experience) are VERY aware of the latest German models, and would be more than happy to share with you performance figures and how Infiniti knocks them on their fat, happy, very surprised tails. (According to the Infiniti salesman of course).

merc1

Well I had such respect for Bob Lutz but he's fallen into the GM trap, very little substance and lots of bragging. None of the cars that he said would be world beaters have been anything close to that.

I just meant car salesman in general, not the whole company and certainly not the Germany vs. Japan issue.

The car companies themselves I'm sure are very much aware of their competition. The problem is that in Europe none of the Japanese luxury car makers are represented in decent numbers or sold at all for the Germans to even notice them.

Nissan/Infiniti is pushing boundaries on all fronts, but I worry that they won't be able to keep up such an assult, all new models will all age at the same time too.

Also, I believe this new M will be a hit, but the next Q is what I'm waiting to see.

M

lexusguy

"but the next Q is what I'm waiting to see"

You and me both. Frankly Im not sure why Nissan is even bothering. If I were them, I would focus more on the cars that need attention: Maxima, Quest, Murano, etc. The Q has been a big fat failure for 15 years running. They tried to do sport with the original, that didnt work. They tried to fight the LS400 with the '97 version, that didnt work either. They went in a new direction with the current model, and again, didnt work. Whats left?

jrock65

I think the Q (or its successor) is important since a successful $60k flagship can go a long way toward raising brand cachet, which Infiniti sorely needs. So they should keep trying; it'll be hard though.

Face it, without the success of the LS, Lexus would just be known as a company that makes a nice tarted up Camry (ES) and some nice SUVs.

warthog

But BMW built its rep on the 3 and 5. I don't think it depends on the 7 for any of its cache. (At least it better not, given the sorry current iteration of that model.) Why do you think Infiniti can't do the same with the G and M? Looks to me like they're off to a pretty good start.

lexusguy

Thats what I'm thinking. BMW is the company with driving excitement as its core philosophy. It has the 7 series because otherwise those sales would go to Audi or Mercedes Benz. Theres only so much sport you can put into a car that big. Thats why there has never been an M7. The 7 is sporty for a full size lux car, but nobody will mistake it for an M3 CSL.

Infiniti is trying to reinvent themselves from a company with rebadged Nissans to also putting the driver first. So.. why make a full size car? Infiniti sales are still going to be primarily in the US for many years to come, and the new S-class and new LS4xx will have the full size market pretty much carved up to themselves. Getting any sales in that market will be significantly harder than sales for the new M. Infiniti would be much better off, in my opinion, with the Skyline GT-R as their flagship, rather than what will almost inevitably be another "me too" boat from them that will flop.

jrock65

I disagree. Even though most of its sales come from the 3 and the 5, the 7 gives BMW a lot of its cachet as an upper-level luxury brand. Without the 7, BMW would not even be mentioned in the same breath as MB, in terms of brand. Same goes for Lexus and the LS. Cache is the main reason that BMW offers the V12 760i and 760Li, even though the sales of those models are really low.

A successful G was the first step, and a successful M is the second step. Good job by Infiniti on those cars. A successful Q (or successor) is the final step, in terms of sedans. Yes, they have failed for 15 years (although the very first Q was semi-successful), but I think they should keep trying.

3, 5, 7.
C, E, S.
A4, A6, A8.
ES/IS, GS, LS.
G, M, Q(?).

bartalk3

What's been completely ignored in this discussion of lux-sporty cars is the potential impact of the new BMW 330i, coming in May. Initial reviews have been raves. It will probably revive BMW's reputation after disastrous 5's and 7's, and scramble the whole rating system here.

lexusguy

I'm not saying that Infiniti should NEVER do a Q, I'm just not entirely sure that they need to follow up on the current flop with an all new car. Not 100% of the Nissan product portfolio is roses. There are several models that need attention, and I dont think a super niche product is where I would be devoting my resources at the moment. I'd let the Q take a break, let people forget about it, and then introduce a new one a few years down the line.

mg808

Has anybody made any decisions with all 3 cars nearing general availability? RL vs. GS vs. M35x.

I am leaning towards the RL over the GS, but need to see the M35x in person. I'm looking for AWD sedans..

BTW, didn't even want to visit BMW, Mercedes or Audi. Very afraid on dropping $50K+ on a unreliable car. My buddy at work dropped $60K+ on a E500 4matic and his NAV display has been replaced 2 times and has numerous climate control issues. Cachet only takes you so far....

kyfdx

I just saw all three of them within 60 feet of each other at the car show on Saturday..

They are more similar than dissimilar.. You'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart going down the street without the grills and badges..

Personally, I'd buy whichever one seemed to "fit" me best.. They are likely to be within a couple of thousand of each other, comparably equipped, and all are likely to be very reliable..

The M and the GS can be outfitted with fewer options, if you are looking to save money that way..

regards,
kyfdx

rcf8000

I wonder if Infiniti realizes the opportunity they have with the Q. All of the European cars that are potential competitors to the LS430 are much more expensive and have other drawbacks, as have been fully discussed above. No US manufacturer has anything even on the drawing boards, that I'm aware of, that will compete with the LS430. Acura is no competition without a V8. Therefore, an opening exists for Infiniti to exploit this opportunity. The M45 is a step in the right direction, but I drove an M45 Sport, and it needs more refinement and cleaner styling to compete with Lexus. It's a lot of car for the money, but if that was really important to LS430 buyers the Q would be selling a lot better than it is.

lexusguy

A Jaguar XJ8 and Audi A8 are in the same price league as the LS430. A couple of grand price difference is just not that important to people shopping for new cars in this league. There are already 4 german entries if you cant the Phaeton, plus Jaguar, plus Lexus, for a VERY small piece of the market. How is this any different than the last time Infiniti introduced a new Q45 and no one cared?

rcf8000

The Q45 has never come off well in comparison tests, unlike the new M. Many comparison tests have not even bothered to include it. What's different is that with the M35/M45 Infiniti finally has an entry that at least deserves being included in comparison tests. The XJ8 and A8 are a lot more than a "couple of grand" more than an LS430, and can't begin to compare when it comes to reliability and dealer experience, imo.

merc1

Very good arguments in favor of Infiniti keeping the faith and doing another Q45. You're right without it they'd seem incomplete as a brand like Lexus and BMW would without their top-level sedans. Didn't think about it like that. The only question is how do they do it? Sport like a 7-Series or luxury like the LS or S-Class? Could they simply supersize the current M35/45 platform? I doubt it. I guess we'll know for sure for 2007-08.

What is really telling is that the current Q45 got a facelift for 2005 and there has been absolutely no mention of it. I've seen more ads for the VW Phaeton than I have for the refreshed Q45.

M

lexusguy

The problem is comparison winning skid pad results are not what shoppers look for in the ultra lux class. People want refinement, prestige, and luxury, none of which Infiniti can beat anyone else at.

carnaught

I too drove both and I agree with your impression(s). The GS's interior, although nice, exhibited very un-Lexus-like cheap looking vinyl on the dash and upper sections of the door panels. In my eyes (surprisingly in person), the exterior favors the GS over the M. With all factors considered though and the GS being more expensive and the 300 being a slug, my nod overall goes to the Infiniti.

oac

A while back on the "Future Vehicle" forum, Merc1, lexusguy and I discussed this issue (see oac, "2007 Infiniti Q series" #24, 30 Jan 2005 7:32 pm

I agree with jrock and Merc1 that Infiniti needs a Qxx to shore up the brand image, but the market has been cornered by Lexus and MB that it will be almost impossible for Infiniti to make a dent. But, a sleeker designed Q, with ~400bhp V8 motor, mated to a 6-speed stick/manumatic/auto tranny, build and refinement quality of an LS, driving dynamics of a 745, and exterior looks of an S-class, then Infiniti will ascend the ladder to hang with the top dogs in the lux class. What are the odds of Infiniti being able to mesh all the great attributes of these competitors into a single car ? Almost impossible.

That's why I think the opportunity is lost, and Infiniti may forever remain 2nd tier behind the pack leaders - MB, Lexus, BMW, for quite sometime. Just mho, of course.

oac

ckelly:

Wanted to get your thoughts on my experience with an Audi salesman yesterday. This guy wouldn't stop with the BMW comparisons

I can only echo Merc and Lexusguy here, to say that these people are not the source of knowledge that they often claim. Sometimes, you can get a real good one tho'. At the Infiniti shop I took my M35 test drive, the sales guy pointed at a Q45 and told me what a crappy car that was. He said nobody wanted one. He was unusually frank with me. Of course, he was on his way to delivering a G35 to a new buyer.

At the San Diego auto show in January, I asked a Lexus sales guy about the 3.5L motor scheduled to debut in Japan this year. With an air of authority and arrogance, he responded that Lexus does not have an engine of that size. I said sure, [non-permissible content removed] !

pearl

I am definitely in the market for a car in this class. I own a 97 528 (122K miles) which I dearly love, but I am finally ready for something new. I had hoped to trade it on a new E60, but was so turned off by the Banglized interior and exterior, plus the I-drive, that I've given up on that one. So I am now down to doing research plus comparo drives of the new RL, M, GS, A6, E350 and STS. So far I have driven all but the E350 and A6, and have not found any single one that "blew my socks off". Don't get me wrong, they are all very nice cars and have much to recommend them depending upon one's individual tastes and desires, but to me, while there are positives for each, there are also negatives (e.g. GS - nice looks, nice interior, materials, etc, but lack of head room and overall interior space, handling and power (300) not up to others, etc). I am definitely going to get one of these cars, so after all drives and research, I'll probably narrow it down to two and go from there.

mqueen1

Today I test drove the Acura RL, The GS300 and the M35x back to back within two hours. For exterior I give the GS300 the win. The RL second and the Infiniti third. The Lexus looks better in real life than the pictures. I do not think that it is a good looking car, it is just the best of the three. All of these cars do not ignite any type of passion in me.

For interior I rank the the RL first, the M35x second and the Lexus last. The GS300 had the touch screen navigation and cheap looking buttons. Also I hate wood steering wheels. The RL was crisp and very clean looking inside. The M35 was a close second with the very elegant wood paneling, but I did not like the logo on the seats and the gauges which were orange or yellow.

Driving- M35x wins this. The steering was much more firm than the other two, with the Lexus and The RL feeling overboosted for my liking. The power of the M35 was also the best. The Lexus was the smoothest and softest overall. Seemless shifting and the quietest of the three. The Acura seemed to not have much power and the gear shifting was the weakest of the three being kind of clunky.

I did not test the navigation on the RL but I thought the Nav on the G35 was better than the Lexus because of the "birds eye" view in the split screen.

Overall I would rank them as M35x, RL and GS300.

I was expecting more of a distinction between these car but they all seemed to be cut of the same cloth. I wonder how many Japanese spies and double agents are working on each of the design teams. It seems remarkable that they could be so similar. As not one of them ignited any passion in me I will wait to see the new 3 series.

merc1

I've seen your view on the M and GS, but what do you think of the E-Class and/or the A6?

M

jrock65

The last time I drove an E320 was about 2 years ago. Very solid car, with that heavier Euro steering and drive feel. The 3.2 felt fine at that time, but I'm sure it'll feel relatively sluggish now. Am eager to test drive the E350.

The car overall is elegant, but I'm not a big fan of ovoid, separate headlights in general. Excellent materials inside as well as tasteful yet conservative inside design, but I think the ergonomics good be better (but I may be biased towards the Japanese in this regard). Wasn't impressed at all with the stereo.

I guess my main gripe is the price. I really don't see anything compelling to command the $10k premium, other than obviously the prestige premium, and that's something I personally don't care about.

The A6 is a good sleek looking sedan, and a good value. Underpowered though. Excellent interior materials, but I'm not a big fan of the interior design.

lexusguy

I've never liked the COMAND system. I remember my wife and I testing an ML320, and I couldnt figure out how to change the radio station. I'm someone who works with computers all day long, so for me to not be able to figure out something technical, its just bad design. The salesman says press the pound sign. Ah yes, pound equals radio, that makes TOTAL sense. My WIFE is supposed to be able to use this mess?

jrock65

"ergonomics good" is "ergonomics could"

merc1

Gee guys its a good thing I didn't ask about BMW's 5-Series and idrive.

M

lexusguy

What can I say, Germany cant design a user interface that doesnt require several manual reads to figure out. Acura and Lexus have been showing the world how to integrate a simple to use NAV system since 1998, and Germany STILL cant get it right. The A4 and A6 had to wait until '06 to get something more than a joke, and many brand new VWs are still coming out with CD based NAV systems. Ugh.

laurasdada

I tested a Mercedes E320 vs. Infiniti G35x and Acura TL. I was hoping I could really see, feel and touch the $15k-$20k price difference to justify purchasing the MB. I am a big fan of it's sporty, elegant and understated exterior and love the interior. But in the end, I just couldn't (over "near-luxury" sedans, much less "luxury"!) reconcile the price differential. My New England frugality (and quietly disapproving evil wife?!) took over and I bought the (wonderful) Acura TL. I'm sure the wife will figure out what to do with the $$$ I didn't spend...

jjacura

I chuckle over this post because I see similarities in your thought processing...this was me 4 years ago when I bought the TL. Then I became more seasoned in my retirement and my comfort level demands changed. So I bought the new RL...(Despite the Mid-Western depression laden parental background and conservative but not-so-evil wife's influence!) Lord help me if I ever get interested in the Porsche Carrera GT ...I would need a loan from LexasGuy to pull that one off! ;-)

bsc1

I have a GS300 and I'm almost ready for a new car. I love the RL with all features standard and I also love the A6. I'm going to see the new GS tomorrow. Why do you say the Audi is unreliable?
Which of these 3 cars (RL, GS, or A6) would anybody recommend?

syswei

For reliability data on individual models I suggest http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp

For the 2004 model year cars you can see "initial quality" ratings (based on survey data). For longer-term reliability ratings you have to look at 2001 or so model year data.

lexusguy

You should also consider the Infiniti M35\M35x. Nobody really has any substantial info on the new A6 yet, but the previous generation car was a MAJOR quality stinker. Multiple recalls to fix the same problem, tons of mechanical issues, a NJ\PA lemon law "all-star" and on CR's list of worst used cars. Not exactly something that would give me a lot of confidence.

bsc1

Thanks- I was just reading posts about the A6, and there seems to be alot of unhappy Audi owners and alot of very happy RL owners. This might make my decision a little easier.

lexusguy

You really should check out the M though if you havent already. It outruns, outhandles, out interior rooms, matches features (if you opt for all the packages) and outprices the RL.

merc1

I agree the Japanese are really ahead in the interface game, but on the flip side they imo still can't figure out how to make a good looking car and they're just really getting the dynamics right via Infiniti.

M

anon2

so after this big discussion, what would you all choose, the BMW 525i or the new M35? I have to make a choice between these two and find it very hard. What would everyone choose and why?

merc1

If we're talking about a 525i and a M35 there is no contest, the M35 all the way. I like the 5-Series look and all, but the 525i is underpowered by far.

M

tjpyles

I will second the M35 over the 525i. I traded in a 528i about a year ago, and I have recently test driven both the M35 and M45. I really think the only thing the 525 has going over the M35 might be interior. The technology packages that come with the new M's and their power really do outclass the 525. There is no doubt in my mind that the M35 I drove had far more power and pick-up than my 528, and I would say handling was as good if not a little better also.

jrock65

not to jump on the bandwagon, but I'd go with the M35 as well.

lexusguy

Considering the M35 shows its tail lights to the 530i, I'd say get the M. The 525i is like the Cayenne V6. Great handling, no power.

kyfdx

The new '06 525 (which will be out soon), will have a new 3.0 litre engine with 215 HP.. That is more than the old 528i.. Still won't keep up with the M35, but power isn't everything..

regards,
kyfdx

lsu1

I am in the market and I have a very convenient Lexus and Infinity dealership near my work and home. A few days ago I test drove the GS300 (only special add on was special wheels) and yesterday I test drove a M35 with journey & technology package and a M45 with Sport, Journey & Technology.

The GS300 was VERY quiet and smooth but not very powerful. Am I wrong but the trunk entrance is smaller and seems to be an issue in putting any size luggage or golf clubs, etc. Since it did not have the Nav or ML... I can not comment on those features.

BOTH the M35 and M45 had the same technology and journey packages and they were impressive.

The M45 was smooth and very powerful and it was more quiet than I expected since I had driven the M35 first.

They Ms appear to have more trunk space and equal technology to GS.

The one issue that I had was the growl/noise of the M35 when I was aggressive in acceleration. It seemed louder than you would like, almost intrusive to the interior noise level.

Do I need to drive it again or is this indeed any issue.

Other than the noise on the M35, the trunk/acceleration/handling/technology do make me lean to the M.

Any others experience that issue.

jrock65

More hp, but less torque. The old 528i is probably faster than the new 525i.

oac

My golf bag is always in my LS, so imagine how disappointed I was in the trunk space of the GS. 'Nuff said.

The M35 is the obvious choice unless you want more insane power, then get the M45. About the only thing I can fault Infiniti on these cars is the amount of sound-proofing. It needs to be improved. Some people do like the growl of a sweet sounding V6 or V8 tho', so that may be a positive to some, a negative to others. YMMV.

jrock65

Infiniti likes to give that growl to the VQ V6 in its cars. Ever heard an FX or a G35 Coupe go by?

I think they like to market to an audience to an audience that likes some growl when you step on it.

To Lexus, silence is golden.

kyfdx

I'm betting that the torque number they are putting out for the 3.0 litre is extremely underestimated... They are using the same numbers that they are giving for the 2.5 litre engine that is used in the rest of the world...

Sounds like sandbagging to me.. I expect it to be much faster than the current 525i, and faster than the old 528i..

But, like everything else... only my opinion.. Either way, won't be as fast as the M35..

jrock65

Even the new 530i won't be as fast as the M35, although the manual form may be able to match it.

lexusguy

How much can they possibly underestimate by? The new 30i engine has only 220ft.lbs, so it will still have the class's lowest torque.