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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I've seen this same argument on a dozen different threads here. You made negative comments about the car I like, therefore I'm going to get angry because you didnt drive the car. If driving a car was a requirement for posting about it here, these conversations would be mighty slow, and dull.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hey folks, let's keep the personal comments out of this. We all are entitled to express our opinions about the cars (as opposed to other community members' behavior!) and no, there is no requirement that a car be driven before one can form and post an opinion about it.


    And as was pointed out, scrolling past messages that you feel have no value is the thing to do rather than making a personal challenge as to one's "right" to hold an opinion. If you really have a problem with a post, the only acceptable response is to drop me an email and let me handle it.


  • formulaformula Posts: 17
    Maybe we should just require people to disclose their experience with the car before expressing an opinion. Something like:


    "I have not driven this car, I don't own this car, my opinion is based solely on what I have read in biased magazine articles, meanlingless statistics, and my own bias toward another car that I really like."
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Better yet, I'll get my lawyer to make a statement before each post.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Cars, people ... cars!




    Again, there is no reason to require certain criteria be met before someone posts an opinion - whether those criteria have to do with first-hand knowledge of the vehicle itself or any kind of posting/disclosure rules or anything else. All opinions on the vehicles are welcome. If you find reason not to value any given opinion because any of the criteria which are important to you have not been met, then just skip it. It really is that simple.


    Now it is time to move on and get back to what we are here to talk about which is the uh, well, I think you've gotten the idea!
  • jtt1jtt1 Posts: 7
    As the owner of a 2000 Acura RL, I thought I was just waiting until the new RL was out to upgrade. A Fed-Ex truck ended the wait so I had to buy something several months ago. Decided to buy a V6 Accord and wait to see how the segment shakes out. Having now seen and sat in all the contenders I am leaning toward the M35/M45. I may be the only one, but the idea of having to deal with the lawyer message on the nav system every time I start the car is enough to keep me away from any cars with Nav standard. M looks like the best bang for the buck. Now the question is V6 (smart choice) or V8 (macho choice)?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The question with M35\45 seems to be wether you want really fast, or REALLY fast. The lowly M35 has enough grunt to keep up with an E430 or the old A6 4.2. Quite an achievement for Infiniti.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Answer: M45.


  • It is ridiculous to say that the criticisms that some have of the RL are not valid just because someone has not driven the car. I have driven the car and feel that the comments about back seat and trunk space and mediocre braking/performance are on target.


    Those observations have also been made even by Car and Driver which put it in their top 10 and by several others on the RL forum (some who like the car and some who don't). It is amusing to see defenders of the car deny measurements and side by side comparisons people have done at recent auto shows.


    To me, the SH-AWD is nice but alot of the other technology the car offers is a poor substitute for having some of the deficiencies noted. It looks like the M series (or even a TL with AWD) could compare very favorably.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "or even a TL with AWD"


    The history of TL and RL makes me think that Acura may not give the TL AWD specifically for this reason. The TL has always killed the RL in sales, and has always been a significantly better value. While the RL is no longer the stodgy, over-priced Toyota Avalon that it once was, I dont think it offers enough over the TL to justify a $17,000 hike.


    In the days when Infiniti was a joke, Acura had an easier time as the fun, value priced Lexus alternative. Now Infiniti is a stronger force than Acura, and they've carved out the perfect sporty Ying to Lexus' luxury Yang. It puts Acura in a very uncomfortable spot somewhere in the middle, in a similar situation that Audi is in vs. BMW and Mercedes.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    I, too, faced the choice of the V6 or V8. As I am in the snow belt, the 6 with AWD made more sense. (Although my sense can be doubted since I ordered it without a test drive). If I lived about 300 miles south of here, the 45 sport would have won out.


    I got a call from my dealer yesterday. They are receiving their first two M's on 2/17. The pre-ordered (at least here in west MI)cars will arrive the first week in March.
  • We've owned or leased a vehicle from each of the above brands over the past ten years. We've been happy with each car, however each lends itself to a particularly different experience.


    Lexus was plush, reliable as all get-up, and the best service experience (we were hardly there, but when we were it was 1st class). A little boring on the ride (LS 400), but silky smooth.


    Audi (A6 and A8) was a great experience- a little spotty on the reliability, as there seemed to be middling little problems every couple of months that would require a half day at the dealership. But the service department was excellent, and probably the second best sales dealer experience.


    Acura was a nice experience (TL, with our best friends and neighbors owning the new RL). Solid car, nothing too fancy. A shade over the "luxury line", if you will.


    Infiniti was the best sales experience we had anywhere- to this day. I35, which is a nice but not great car. No reliability issues whatsoever. Looked at the G35, but too small. LOVE what I've seen/heard about the M- it may be my next car. Inherited a '91 Q45, and it was a great car while we owned it.


    BMW is what I am currently driving- an '05 530i. LOVE the car- but am having some initial spotty service. Not a reliability issue- a problem loading software. It's a service issue, but not a reliability- that's a big difference IMO.


    So.......I really think ALL of the current offering of the luxury manufacturers are excellent vehicles. Some may be faster than others, some more luxurious, some with a better repair history, etc.... But we are in an age where 40-60k is going to allow you the choice between close to a dozen fabulous sedans. Compare that to a decade ago. Not even close.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371


    2006 GS300 AWD with Nav 49999 (without levinson stereo)


    2006 GS300 AWD w/out Nav 47024 (without levinson stereo)


    2006 GS430 RWD w/Nav and chrome 58743 (nav and chrome are standard)


    The above was posted by someone else in another forum. I can't vouch for the authenticity.
  • kirby2010kirby2010 Posts: 136
    I've driven three of the cars on the list - BMW 530, MB 320, and my A6 (2.7T, w/speed). Still quite happy with the Audi. Based on several factors it was - at least for me - the clear first choice. Quattro was a clear discriminator in this price range. 6-speed, features, comfort all weighed in the decision. I felt the MB was over priced and the BMW too tight in the shoulders and a bit over-hyped.


    Now that it's time to trade I'm thinking Acura RL or even the Infinti FX45 (I know it's not in the list). I'm headed out to test drive it in the next week or so along with the Acura RL and the new A6. I did a side-by-side of specifications and features of the RL, A6, 320, and FX45. Lot in common and a lot in of great choices in this price range. At the end of the day, though, the Audi has sold me on AWD.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Every car in the segment now offers AWD, though that combined with a V8 is still rare.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Those prices for the GS300 seem very high and very uncompetitive, if true.


  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Not necessarily. It doesnt seem too much higher than a similar M35x or M45.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'd have to differ there especially cosidering how much the M35/45 appear to outperform the proposed GS300 and GS430, especially the GS300 with its smallish V6. I doubt their new 6-speed trannies are going to enable them to catch these hot new Infinitis. The Acura RL too appears overpriced imo compared to the M35, and even the base M45 sneaks in under the RL's 49K sticker. I think the Infiniti M's set the value standard in this segment.




    Was that the current 225hp 530i or the new 255hp model?


  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Agree, the M is definitely the segment benchmark.. for now. That may change when the GS gets its new engines though.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well from a value standpoint was my point in the above post, not the outright segment benchmark. One comparo win doesn't begin to make a an outright benchmark.


  • "I find it amazing how you seem to be able to comment on every car like you have experience with them yet you seem to have not driven any of them. Your opinion (to me at least) will only have some worth after you actually drive a car you talk about. The same holds true for anyone out there"


    "As for the new M, I still think its interior looks weak based on pictures. Horrible layout and I doubt its material quality is up to top standards."


    First you criticize a poster for commenting on a car without driving it first, then you go on to comment on the Infiniti's interior layout and material quality, based on pictures???? Doesn't your logic of driving the car before forming an opinion hold for you?????
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371


    It was the current 225hp, but it had the only manual tranny in the comparo.


    0-60 times


    RL 6.7

    Audi 7.3

    BMW 6.8 (manual)

    Cadillac 6.8

    M35 6.3

    Jaguar 7.8


    Apparently, this was the only negative comment about the M:


    "....some editors had issues with the layout of the secondary controls for the climate and audio systems on the center stack, particulary the ones atop the dash."


    Some other comments on the M:


    ".... superb weight balance and pinpoint steering make this sport sedan a willing partner on any road you care to choose. No wonder the M35 smoked the competition in acceleration test and tied for first with the sport package equipped 530i in braking and the figure eight test."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,817
    I wouldn't bet on it having a 3.0 litre engine.. even though the nomenclature suggests that..


    I can't imagine them coming out with a new $47K car, and not bumping up the numbers... I'd say, expect 250 hp ++


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • drewsrxdrewsrx Posts: 57
    I would bet on it, because this is directly from the Lexus USA website:


    "The next phenomenon from Lexus is coming. The entirely new GS 300 comes packed with the force of 245-hp in a 3.0-liter V6 engine. And a ferocious 300-hp, 4.3-liter V8 lives under the hood of the GS 430.


    The style is groundbreaking — sleek sculpted lines, slingshot windows and a longer wheelbase take the GS into uncharted design territory. An innovative push button starts the ignition. And to complement the powerful engines, the GS sports a six-speed sequential-shift automatic transmission.


    The phenomenon begins March 2005."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,817
    Didn't the last GS300 have a straight-six? Although the power bump is good, it is disheartening to see Toyota ditch the inline engine...


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • drewsrxdrewsrx Posts: 57
    Yes, the 1st and 2nd Gen GS300 did have an inline-6 engine. "Economies of scale", means it doesn't make financial sense to have the inline-6 engine around any longer, when they have a global V6 that produces more power, is more compact, has lower emissions, and is more fuel efficient. Nissan did not continue with the RB26 I6 on the new Skyline for the same reason. The 2JZ and RB26 were great I6's for modding potential, but they don't make USDM financial sense anymore. Besides, Nissan and Toyota both have impressive V6's with the VQ and GR series. The I6 is still a great configuration though. It can't be touched for smoothness and natural internal balance.
  • The Bimmer was the current 225hp 530i sport. But I do not believe it's 3rd place finish was due to a lack of power. The main gripes were the active steering(overly intrusive)i-drive(too many sub-menus) and what else, price.
  • I wonder why an E-class Mercedes was not included in the Motortrend comparo.
  • Acura Canada RL Sales Fall Off a Cliff....


    Guess what - now that the Infiniti M pricing is out (at up to $15K CAD LESS than the RL), the 2 people who actually bought RL's in Canada this year at the USD$48K sticker price plus the Acura Canada "Let's See If We Get a Sucker" extra premium of $11+K over current F/X (CAD$71,500) have had their drivers licenses revoked for being 'Sub-Normal' (IQ under 90).


    I've tested the RL, and I've sat in the M (in dealers in Canada by late Feb, for test drives). The M35AWD - also a 6 - has the best engine in its class, more/better 'gadgets' and feels far less claustrophobic. I can't imagine any more Subnormals willing to pay the "Canadian extortion premium" over the US pricing once the M is available for order - now.


    Of course, if you have to spend 72K CAD, you can consider the Lexus GS (CAD$66K) - something tells me lexus still has better fit and finish (and residual values) than boring Acura. (Ghosn has pulled the Infiniti brand way ahead of Honda/Acura on styling alone). If they sell more than 10 RLs in Canada at their dumb price grab, I'd be surprised.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah that really makes no sense. An Acura the most expensive Japanese sedan? WHAT?
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