Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx

Well. they are estimating 184 lbs.. so, that leaves a lot of room for improvement... Both engines have the same displacement..

And, I said... it will still be slower than the M35... twice.. lol..

designman

The old M had what, 340 hp? They weren't lining up around the corner to buy that one.

merc1

I think they may have had to do more with the dumpy design and complete lack of advertising. Plus the press killed the car upon its arrivial anyway, so far they're singing the praises of this one. The old M45 even lost to a bunch of 6-cylinder cars.

M

oac

The old M had the same fate that befell the old and current (and all iterations of) Q45. Dumpy, poor performing, sport-lux-sport-whatever Infiniti exec decided on any given day. This new M is much better, but I'll have to get into a M45 to conclude how much better. All reviews so far shows no genre relationship except the engine, with the old M. Thank God....

designman

A-ha. Can’t slip nothin’ by these two crackerjacks. Dumpy, aye? Actually, I kind of like the styling of the old M. Reminds me of cars like the old Barracuda.

oac

"Actually, I kind of like the styling of the old M. Reminds me of cars like the old Barracuda"

Old Barracuda, eh ? How 'bout a head-to-head comparison of the old-v-new:

Old M45



New M45



Hmmmmmm...... Maybe the old ain't that bad looking afterall....

untrue

I only have one problem with the new M. The rear is too large for the size wheels they put on it. And by large I mean fat. Larger wheels are not necessarily better, BMW achieves their nice hunkered down look by using wider rims in the rear. The effect is amazing. The M needs that. If I bought one that would be my first change but I think the sport version should have that as an option.

lexusguy

Yes it is. A poor asian intepretation of a muscle car is not what this class requires.

merc1

Actually the second picture of the new M45 is the concept car not the actual production vehicle. The old M45 did have a unique look, no question.

M

untrue

Oh, that's why it looks so much better than the other M pics I've seen.

anon2

Aside from power in the M35, does the BMW 525i drive better? Would you choose the 525i because of that?

tjpyles

Well I may not have the best comparison for your situation. But, my 528i I traded in was a 2000 model. I have not driven the new model 5 series, but I have driven the new M's from Infiniti and the 2000 528. I found the handling in the new M's to be every bit as good as my 528. Cornering was very tight, and I always felt like I had complete control. I traded my 5 a little over a year ago, so I'm going on memory and an older model than you are speaking of, but I found my driving experience (handling and power) in the M's to be every bit as good if not better. P.S. I drove a sport model of both the M35 and M45. Handling wise I'm not sure I could tell much of a difference. In one of the car mag reviews I read they claimed to be able to notice better cornering from the rear active steering in the 45.

matt5

I've been looking seriously at the various sedans in this category (BMW530, RL, M35 and GS300). I've critically driven them all. I don't claim to be an "expert driver", but I can honestly say that I'm pretty unbiased and really have no "allegiance" to any brand. Bottom line is that they're all good cars with pros and cons, but the several E60 BMW530's that I've tested are CLEARLY SUPERIOR in the handling and 'feel' department. Again, the bimmer has it's "controversial" side with idrive, styling (subjective, tho) and all, and I still can't get myself to fork over 52K+ on one....but it's clearly the hands-down winner in that dept. M35 has powerful engine, but as said previously, HP is just one of the variables when it comes to a sophisticated sport-lux sedan. Just my 2cents.

jlbl

Agility is the word that defines 2004/5 BMW 5 Series.

May be is not the more powerful car of the niche, or the more luxurious. May be you are not driving sporty most of the time or any time at all. But, in my one year experience with it, the car combines to my satisfaction the power with the drivability and the feeling of security. No matter if you drive it along highways, winding roads or town streets. No matter the speed.

Such a big car is such a feather and, at the same time, so stubbornly precise! It fits you upon condition that your primary (but not the only one) desire for a car is that it gives you back driving happiness. ;-)

Jose

bsc1

Just drove the M35xAWD and loved it. Soft leather seats, great gadgets, amazing sound system with speakers on the seats next to the headrests. The car drove nice and tight- great handling around curves and was able to easily pass any car I needed to.You really feel the 280hp and the AWD kick in. Lots of fun- adding it to the list along with GS and A6

anon2

Anyone know what the difference between the 2005 and 2006 E320 is? And also, do people like the E Class? Is it worth the money?

Thanks

maxhonda99

The E320 becomes the E350 for 2006 with a more powerful 268bhp V6.

drewsrx

I have driven both the GS430 and M45. I am a current Lexus owner and previous Infiniti owner. IMO, the M surpasses every car in this segment for overall best. Except for the fact that it cannot be had with a manual transmission, it handles and drives just as good as the Steptronic 5-Series.

lexusguy

Yes, people like the E class. No, its not worth the money.

harwin310

Have you test driven the new Audi A6 V8? Would be interested in the comparison as well? Pricing is very close to the M45 and they offer scheduled maintenance.

drewsrx

harwin310,

I have driven the new A6 V8. I would put this car somewhere close to the class leaders, but I have a lot of reservations. The interior quality of the A6 still remains at the top, but IMO the steering lacks feel and the handling isn't as good as the previous generation car. It feels more solid, but not as fun to toss around. The 4.2 is a nice engine, but doesn't feel as strong as a 545i or M45. IMO, Audi went too far towards the luxury side with this new model. Looks are always subjective, but I thought that the previous car was a nicer design. You can't go wrong with any car in this class, but I prefer more sports oriented cars. The 545i and M45 deliver.

merc1

You forgot the "IMO" in your post. Obviously if people like it and buy it enough numbers for the E to outsell every other car in this class, they feel its worth the money.

M

lexusguy

Well, when you ask if a car is "worth the money" that implies an opinion. But yes, in my opinion, the E costs too much.

jrock65

Speaking of the E, the 2006 E350 is now up on mbusa.com. Looks like MSRP has gone up about $1500. So a well-equipped E350 RWD is about $60,000. The RWD comes with the 7 speed auto transmission, and the AWD comes with the 5 speed auto transmission.

They're estimating 6.5s 0 to 60 for the E350 RWD. That is faster than all the other cars in this class except the M35.

The interior of the E is very tasteful and pleasing, although it's a bit smallish. Impressive car, my main gripe is the price.

lexusguy

Exactly, 60 grand can get you into a V8 from Lexus or Infiniti.

oac

"Exactly, 60 grand can get you into a V8 from Lexus or Infiniti"

But does it buy you the cache of an MB ?

lexusguy

Well, I guess "cache" just isnt worth 10 grand to me. I have other things to spend 10 grand on.

richcream

Just drove both the M35awd and Audi A6 3.2 today and I've gotta say that this is a TOUGH decision. These are both great cars, with great styling and great interiors...Infinity REALLY stepped it up both inside and out (especially in.) The Infiniti is faster and a little noisier, the Audi is smooth, but still quick (more so in "sport" mode). I am really torn between the two. Someone, anyone, please post as many reasons as you can as to why I should buy one over the other...let me in on some insider knowledge...something like "infiniti/audi is planning major recalls on all the m35's/a6's so stay away" otherwise i'm going to just have to flip a coin or something...maybe buy one and trade for the other in a year or so. Thanks in advance.

cdnpinhead

or not.

richcream

If by herd you mean "People who want a luxurious car that delivers performance for around $50,000" then all I can say is:
"BAAA BAAAA"
Just out of curiousity, what do you like Mr. Trendsetter? Seeing as how you are in an Infiniti M35 forum???

jrock65

This thread isn't really an M35 forum. It's also in the other cars' forums as well.

If you like the A6 and the M35 equally as cars, I'd go with the M35, only because its predicted reliability is much better than the A6.

richcream

Like i said, it's a tough decision (Infiniti's absolute current refusal to budge off of an MSRP with a 10%/$5,000 profit margin aside).

The Audi has IMO, a better exterior, while the Infiniti, as crazy as it might sound, again IMO, has a superior interior...you really hafta see it to believe it. It absolutely puts the interior of the BMW 530 to shame, shame i say!

It comes down to "Faster & Furious-er" (m35) VS. "Smooth and Refined" (A6). Were the m35 a tad quieter (it is loud and that could get very irritating) or the A6 a bit faster (you really hafta step on it) either one would be a no-brainer.

Thanks for the advice, it's a valid point. If the new A6 is anything like the last few generations, then recalls will be aplenty.

-Still undecided

kfhmail

I was able to get inside a GS 300 a couple of days ago.

I am 6'1"...not sure if there is enough headroom...I tried to adjust the seat, but my head kept touching the roof...will go back and test drive and try the seat one more time.

On Ventilated seats...The salesman said the "ventilation" did not come from the A/C but from fans under the seat. These fans just blow the internal air through the seats.

Can anyone confirm this and is this how all "ventilated" seats work for other manufacturers?

I guess that is why it is called ventilated seats instead of cooled seats.

Thanks for any info.

jrock65

I'm not certain about the seats in the other cars, but the ones in the M35/45 are definitely "cooling". In other words, the air that comes through is cooled air conditioned air.

lexusguy

Go for the M. I tried the A6, its nice, but all that Quattro weight just takes the fun away.

rayainsw

"Have you test driven the new Audi A6 V8? Would be interested in the comparison as well? Pricing is very close to the M45 and they offer scheduled maintenance. "

I drove the first (demo only) A6 V8 at my dealer last fall. And I drove the first M45 Sport at my Infiniti dealer.

The test numbers suggest that there is (what I’d consider) a large difference in acceleration ability between the A6 4.2 (C+D: 0 – 60 = 6.3 SS Quarter = 14.8 at 97) and the M45 Sport (C+D: 5.6 / 14.2 at 101, R&T: 5.3 / 13.8 at 101.6).

These are differences I’d expect most enthusiast drivers would immediately be able to notice.

And yet, oddly, I was not nearly as impressed with the M45 Sport acceleration as the published numbers led me to believe.

My current vehicle is pegged as a 14.8 – ish SS Quarter machine. And the M45 did NOT feel appreciably quicker in several acceleration runs – from a dead stop and roll on from 30 to 60.

The A6 V8 acceleration is certainly ‘sufficient’ for any real ‘need’. Yet what I want is the acceleration I felt with this same motor in the smaller and lighter S4.

For what that might be worth . . .
- Ray
Admittedly addicted to acceleration . . .

pasgener

I agree with you: I actually preferred the M35's interior. And while the M35's exterior styling is somewhat bland, I don't think the A6's is a home run. While their starting prices are similar, I think if you compare option for option, the M35 is cheaper (particularly if you option them both to the max), and at least in my area, the lease deals are better with the M35.

jjacura

Realizing that the M and A6 are hot discussion right now and the RL was introduced over 4 months ago....I risk treading on thin ice here right now, but is there anyone in here that feels as I do, that the RL interior competes favorably to these cars.

jrock65

I feel that the RL has the best interior design of all the cars, but the others are not far behind. In terms of materials, all the cars are equally top-notch for the most part.

In terms of interior room, however, the GS and especially the M have the RL beat. The RL kind of felt small inside.

mikestevens

Obviously, in this price range the interiors are all pretty darn nice and it comes down mostly to personal preference. That said, having spent a little time in each at the Chicago Auto show, I was surprised by how much I disliked the M35 interior. I just didn't care for that "shelf" look of the dash, and I though the placement of the MMI knob (or whatever Inifiniti is calling it) was too high, requiring one to reach up to use it.

I prefered the RL interior, although I think it's a little too cluttered. I for one like the fact that it's a little snug, but that's probably because I'd be driving it primarily alone....

I still think the A6 interior easily beats all comers, but again IMHO...

lexusguy

The RL isnt bad, its certainly better than BMW by a long shot, but I think the GS has the best interior in the segment. I dont like the A6. The previous version had a great interior, and they ruined it this time with all that gray "in your face" vertical switch gear. The dash just seems very cold and computerized to me, which is not the impression I got the last time I drove a 2.7T.

senneca01

Before any of you decide on purchasing the new Audi A6, you should be aware of the problems that owners have been reporting thus far:

1. After returning to their parked cars, a few Advanced Key owners have actually found their cars running with the doors locked. No one has been able to figure out how or why this happens.
2. There are some heated seat malfunctions which are related to the metal connectors inside of the seat.
3. Sirius radio linking errors messages with Audi audio interface. Also, poor XM radio reception.
4. Memory fragmentation with Audi's MMI interface. Needs a reboot for it to work fast and smooth again.
5. Very slow power window speed, related to window seals.
6. Charge system light upon startup malfunctioning and blinking for no reason even with 100% charge showing on MMI. Cold weather startup problems could be related.
7. MMI problems have been reported, ranging from reboots to strange noises coming from speakers when switching functions. Also, not being able to get to the correct CD or radio station to select.

If you must have the new A6, I would wait 1.5-2 years until all of the bugs have been worked out, otherwise it could be a nightmare.

If you are looking for long term reliability, get the Infiniti-M. Infiniti has the best reliability statistics after the first year of ownership, even better then Lexus. Might be hard to believe, but it is true according to Consumer Reports.

Check the PDF below for more info:

How Cars Hold Up Over Time

kgary

Where were the 7 problems with the 2005 A6 in your posting "reported". While I have heard about tip-lag on this and other forums, as well as bluetooth cell phone interface problem, this is the first time I have heard about the 7 problems "reported" in your posting. The pdf linked in your posting deals with cars built in 2003 and before, not the 2005 Audi. I am concerned because I am taking delivery on a 2005 A6 4.2 in a few weeks.

jmatthe

All German cars are nightmares the first year of model change. I have owned 4 first year German cars. If your dealer is good and close, who cares, they will fix it when they figure out how to, but you will be irritated regularly. I went from BMW to Acura (2005 RL)and have been ovewhelmed with the excellence of service. Acura has proactively "fixed" known issues before I even experienced them! You will not see that with MB, Audi or BMW unless they are safety issues. The car is great and has features you can't even get on the others. Worth consideration and in comparision tests has beat the others excepting the M35.

lexusguy

Edmunds has posted their comparison of the RL, M45 and GS430 today. Here are my thoughts on it. (short version, I dont agree).

Very interesting reading, I have to say I was more than a little surprised by the results. I was certainly not expecting a 3rd place for the M45 sport. Apparently its too "sporty" of a sports sedan, if that makes sense. I'm surprised the Lexus won, ranking last in the fun to drive factor. Apparently sports sedans shouldnt be fun to drive? Im sorry was this a test of the GS or LS? The Edmunds guys seemed to have their priorities a little messed up. Normally an out right slaughter in all performance tests wins you a comparison when you're up for best sports sedan. Not this time, its all about how the buttons are easy to understand, and the steering wheel looks so pretty!

jrock65

I thought that their praise and gripes about each car were pretty fair. The M was the best for sport, the GS was the best for luxury, and the RL had a good combo of both. Apparently, Edmunds likes luxury over sport, so the win went to the GS.

However, this statement just baffles me:

"It's the best sport sedan from Japan in its price range."

How can it be the best "sport" sedan, when it ranked dead last among the 3 in sport? Maybe they meant the best "luxury" sedan in its price range.

One thing, the RL should really have been pitted against the GS300 and the M35, not the V8s.

Also, looks like they tested a fully loaded GS430 vs. a bare bone stock M45 Sport. No wonder the GS got better rankings for features, stereo, and ultimately personal preference.

I'm not really surprised though. No Infiniti has EVER won an Edmunds comparo...

rboyd4

I agree with your basic comments. Of course by Edmunds' own admission the gap was only 4 points from top to bottom but it seems a greater emphasis should have been placed on vehicle performance which, per Edmunds, the M45 won hands down. It seems like the felt like the Lexus was more luxurious and it won on that basis (no surprise). However, from that perspective the M45 was at a disadvantage because the M45 was as they called it a "stripper" with basically no options ($10K less than the Lexus in price as tested). It had the lowest of 3 Infiniti sound systems, no navi, etc. So given how the Infiniti lost you would wonder if it would have picked up a point or two with more options as tested. Also, I noticed that Edmunds liked a little more luxury and a little less sport. Little doubt that the base model M45 (not M45 Sport) would have also won all the performance categories but with a slightly softer suspension and more supply handling and with a rosewood interior instead of the aluminum. Based upon the Edmunds' comments, I strongly suspect a M45 similarly optioned to the Lexus with the more refined rosewood interior would have won.

The bottom line is they are all great cars. For me, I want a little more performance and a little less luxury so I lean toward the M (my European point of comparison would be BMW). Lexus is more Mercedes like- good performance but more luxury. No shame either way you go.

The same group of cars tested by a different group of writers could have easily flipped the order. Motortrend did a similar test in which the M won this month although the new GS was not in the group tested (BMW, Audi, Acura were represented among others).

PS I was surprised to see that Edmunds thought the Infiniti had slightly better interior materials than the Acura. Historically this has been a point of weakness for Infiniti but they are improving.

lexusguy

Good points. I was disappointed that Infiniti didnt send a maxed out M. I actually value the opinions of Edmunds audio reviewer quite a bit, so I was sorry that he wasnt able to put the top Infiniti 5.1 system against Lexus' latest Mark Levinson offering. One thing is for sure, the sound systems in all three cars will easily mop the floor with those of BMW, Mercedes, and Audi.

kgary

When I went shopping for a new car in November, the RL was at the top of my list. After I drove it, it dropped to third place behind the A6 4.2 and the 530. The RL rode like an Accord, the back seat was too small and the dashboard was a bit gimmicky. Having driven Japanese products for 20 years, I know that they are reliable, but the RL lacked any spirit. So I will take my lumps with the Audi. The dealer is 3 miles from the house and 8 miles from the office.

liy

Interesting. As an owner (along with my spouse) of four (4) Audi automobiles over the past six years, including a two week old A6, 3.2, I would not take significant issue with the findings in the CBS pdf attached to your post. However, for the record, I traded in a 1999, Audi A6, 2.8, with 141,000 miles on it, never a serious engine or transmission problem, BUT, several recalls (service performed quickly and efficiently by Criswell Audi, Annapolis, MD), a timing belt, and some brakes. (My wife's A4 2.8 and A4 Cab have proven to be very reliable automobiles - and note that Consumer Reports now lists the A4 a recommended vehicle). Loved the car!!

My newest Audi is much better than the old A6 - better acceleration, handling, outstanding interior - everything works. With regard to the seven problems you list, my take on them is as follows:

1. The "key" with advance key is to turn the vehicle off before exiting. A good habit to get in is to press the off button twice; once to turn the engine off, the second press turns off all electronics and locks the steering wheel.

2. I have read one report of seat heater malfunction. The seat heating of all of our Audi automobiles has been superb - continuously variable between settings of 1 and 6, and heating both the bottom and back of seat. I believe this to be a reliable, time-tested component in an Audi auto.

3. I have Sirius radio. Its great. Reception is fine,except in the garage, under an overpass, or in a tunnel. Seriously doubt that there is any peculiar problem between Sirius, Xm and the Audi interface.

4. MMI has functioned flawlesly. Of course, "reboot" is easily accomplished should you feel you just gotta.

5. Power windows are slower than on my previous Audi's; assume this was due to the new anti-pinch protection feature - not a big deal, really!!

6. Have not read of any reported problems with charge system light, and have experienced none.

7. I am not aware of any of the MMI problems you list and have experienced none - works great!! BTW, so does the voice recognition - correct CD and radio station every time!!!

Finally, are you an Infiniti, Acura or Lexus salesman?

LIY