You wrote: "Anyone here know how they could keep the deposit? (Answer to first question, other than a credit app, I signed nothing)."
You signed the check, didn't you? Probably with some notation on the memo line? If so, you may have entered into a contract under the UCC and the dealer can not only keep your deposit but sue for his profit. Now, in the real world, kyfdx is probably right that they won't bother. However, . . .
I would think that if they tried to keep your money, you could sue them for non performance or maybe breach of contract...ie: not getting you your car in a reasonable amount of time...buy, then again maybe they have something in contract that doesn't limit them to guarantee a certain delivery date. I would think it all boils down to "did you specifically give them anything in writing that said non-refundable receipt?". I have never seen a dealer keep a deposit. And, if it neither said refundable or not, then it should be assumed that if you change your mind, that the money should come back to you. Beleive me, they will have no trouble selling the car you didn't take...and knowing how you negotiate, they will probably make more money on someone else anyway. So you did them a favor by cancelling.
I don't see how they can keep your deposit if you haven't taken delivery of the vehicle. If it was put on a credit card , and Infiniti balks,and IF the transaction is less than 60 days old FROM the time you received your credit card bill, you can simply cancel the charge by writing a letter to VISA.
As Devil's Advocate, I point out that Mark says delivery was for August. How, then, is the dealer in breach for untimely delivery when it's only June? As to whether the writing, if any, says "non-refundable" or not, your assertion is just bad law. If Mark made a contract to buy a car, then it's binding and doesn't have to say non-refundable. There's no assumption that Mark can simply change his mind. Again, however, the business reality is that the dealer will probably refund it. I just get bothered by self-serving justifications for breaching a contract (assuming Mark made a contract).
Your position is completely unsupported in the law. Maybe the CC company will refund the money, but Mark is still committed to buy the car, assuming he initially made a contract to do so. Mark's mode of payment is irrelevant to his obligations to the dealer.
How much was this deposit to the dealer...are we talking $1500 or less? Just curious. If they are going to keep his money, he should get a credit to the Infiniti dealer and buy accessories...then sell them on Ebay for a fair price and he should recoup some of his money. Just an idea!!!!
Interesting developments. While ultimately you should get the car that you want, I have to tell you I'm a little bit disappointed because it sounds like the M35x is being put back in the box and returned to the store. I was looking foward to reading your posts on the car after you had owned the M for a few months coming from so many Audis. Ohhhhh well.
When I bought a car last year, it was a Toyota Sienna XLE Limited and they were charging full sticker plus for the Limited as they were hard to come by. I live in Florida and ordered from a Toyota dealer I found online which has a great policy...$100 over invoice and they post list price vs price they sell it at online for you to see. Anyway, the name of the dealer is Autofair in Manchester New Hampshire...I called them up and over the phone ordered a minivan. The vans are made in Indiana. They only required a $100 deposit to make one for me at the factory. Ordered it, they started it in February and they shipped it down middle of March. Even though it was only $100, they told me verbally (not in writing) that if for any reason I changed my mind, they would refund the deposit. Again, I'm not clear if you signed a contract or just gave them a check. Also, I would think it matters what state you're in...as far as a buyers order being a binding contract. I would think that if there is no damage to the dealer, meaning the car will sell at no less than you were going to pay, than they should not keep your money. Your car isn't there yet and you didn't take them out of the market. Don't tell them you bought a new Audi and give Manager at Infiniti a sob story that you just lost your job and can't afford to buy a new car at this time. Tell them you need the money to help pay your mortgage this month...come on, pour it on strong!!!
I respectfully disagree. Mark has NOT taken ownership of the merchandise. It wasn't ordered with his name "engraved" on the door handle and "embroidered" into the leather seats. This is a standard issue vehicle. He isn't buying a Rolls-Royce where every detail about the car is custom ordered .Unless the credit app he signed said specifically "no refunds", and he hasn't taken ownership, he will get his deposit back. Also, the vehicle in question isn't licensed in his name yet, in fact, it may not even be built yet!!
I run a specialty retail store and have had many cases through the last 21 years where items were "special ordered" so to speak, and the customer cancelled (for a variety of reasons) before delivery. My receipt says "no refunds" and I offer the customer an in store credit toward other merchandise. If his application does have the no refund clause, receiving an "in-store" credit w/ Infiniti would be the next best thing, of course, assuming he decides not to go through with the deal.
. . .this is NOT a done deal. If the dealer has a leg to stand on, I would not be at all unhappy to move forward with the M35X. The Audi deal is an improvement in money (depending on how you value the free maintenance, lower monthly payment, couple miles per gallon, etc. -- the Audi is probably at least $2,000 less money over 36 months.) This in the larger scheme of things IS not, changing and WILL not change things.
Both my wife and I, while pleased that Audi came through in the 11th hour, are still somewhat miffed that it came about this way. Having said that, I am NOT going to court -- there will soon be a car on a boat heading for the US that is what I had ordered. I am not pitting one company against the other at this stage for yet another price cut from Infiniti. I had made my "public" piece here (and elsewhere) and as y'all must know, I would have gone with the Audi had they been even a little MORE than the Infiniti way back in March when I made the decision and then on April 1 when I gave the deposit and filled out the credit app.
Background:
When we ordered my wife's new BMW (that, too, had to be built and shipped to the US), she filled out a credit app, configured and negotiated the upfronts and monthly payment. When the paperwork was presented to her she read ALL of it (she is an attorney). She told me the BMW paperwork said that the dealer had the right to the refund of the deposit -- at the dealer's discretion -- once the car actually arrived. I guess this means that the dealer could say AFTER the car was on his lot and the customer refused it, "I'll keep $500 for my trouble." Or, "I'll refund the $1,000 and sell the car to someone else." Or, "Under the agreement you signed, I'll keep the entire $1,000 -- tough luck, lady."
The typical dealer will -- or so says my dealer -- NEVER keep the deposit. However, the dealer may keep the deposit UNTIL the car that you ordered in Lime Green Metallic without air conditioning and an AM radio is sold.
My Audi dealer is a Porsche dealer. Once in some 25 years did they temporarily hold the deposit of a person who did order a completely stripped Porsche in a less than popular color. They claim the delay in the refund of the deposit was 3 weeks.
Unlike my wife, I did not sign such an agreement. I signed a credit app and they faxed me a Purchase Order with the specific breakdown of the car and the agreed upon price. No where in any document I signed was there "contract" language that (like the BMW agreement) specified the "dealer's discretion." Indeed the Purchase Order did not even mention the deposit.
I used a Debit/Credit MasterCard for the deposit. I have the electronic and hard copy notice from the Bank/Card showing the deposit was made to such and such Infiniti dealer -- that's it.
This, as far as I am concerned, is NOT worth a fight. If there is any reason for the Infiniti dealer to legitimately (let's call it ethically NOT legally under some interpretation of the UCC that I am not aware of -- and I am NOT a lawyer, just so you know) keep the deposit, well "sweet home Infiniti it shall be for me."
I will, however, not be happy if the Infiniti dealer simply goes silent. This seems to be the approach at this time (2 days of silence after 2 voice mails, one person to person call and an email.)
The person to person call was to the Internet sales manager who apparently has to get everything, including carry out pizza, approved (not that this makes him in any way anything other than a victim, he seems like a nice guy.)
The tale continues, and I thank you all for your input.
At this point, Infiniti is not returning your calls because they are probably trying to "stall" you until the 60 days from the time you receive your MC statement/bill is up, most likely within the next couple of days. If Infiniti isn't returning your calls now, just think of the poor service you will receive when the car arrives w/ scratches and or mechanical issues. I believe a dealer is generally more motivated to take care of a customer that originally bought from them and have had personal experiences with this issue.
Perhaps we should take this discussion elsewhere, as it's pretty far afield from the cars, but from a purely legal standpoint (which was Mark's original query), you're wrong. No paper needs to say "no refund", licensing is irrelevant and delivery doesn't matter. If I order a roll of toilet paper I'm bound to buy it or pay the vendor damages in the amount of his expected profit.
However, as I've said all along, most vendors as a matter of good will would refund the deposit.
I would agree with you that most dealers would and should (as a matter of good will) return the deposit on a non-delivered non-custom built vehicle.
As far as your statement about ordering and following through, I wish every customer had your sense of business responsibility. Unfortuneately, the "no refund" statement is a necessary and vital part of doing business in this litigous society that we live in. Customers change their minds on a minute by minute basis, and the seller /buyer must have some guidelines upon entering a transaction.
Delivery of an automobile IS the most critical issue of all. I challenge you to check w/ the AG office of your state and inquire as to the law pertaining to the return of pre-delivery deposits versus after delivery returns of motor vehicles.
I bet Ifiniti changes the way they do business on the Internet after this, you will now see "no refunds" plastered all over the P.O.!!
. . .a very gracious Infiniti General Manager and I just spoke. He APOLOGIZED to me for not being able to win my business. The deposit is "happily" refunded and "I hope we have the opportunity next time to earn your business."
"Mark, I see you have been buying Audis since 1977 and I know that we would do everything in our power to keep a long-term customer like you, too."
Well, there you go... Ifiniti "came through" w/o any drama, and who knows, you might be enticed by their product line 3 years from now and be wooed away from Audi by how they treated you today.
A Westlaw internet search of the North Carolina General Statutes does not turn up any statute pertaining to deposits paid on the sale or order of motor vehicles. This being the case, normal contract law applies and I stand by my previous statements (which included the assumption that Mark actually made a contract to purchase the Infiniti, about which he has not provided sufficient information to make a determination).
Very well. In real estate, deposits are always placed by the purchaser with contract, at the opening of escrow. Many deals "fall out of bed" and full refunds given, unless the seller can make a claim against it. We hold Security Deposits for renters of apartments, which are refunded on vacancy, minus damages. That's with fairly standard contracts, as you know.
Putting a deposit down on your toilet paper, and then deciding not to follow-through with the purchase when the toilet paper arrives, and abandoning the deposit...? Well... Unless an agreement was signed stating the non-refundable status of the deposit, I don't believe the purveyor of toilet paper would have much of a case to hold the deposit unless he can prove that the toilet paper has a lesser value on the market than the price he paid for it. eg. the toilet paper was 60 grit which noone but this customer had an interest in prior to the special order.
As you said, we would have to review Mark's paperwork more closely.
I went back into my "car" file to find the order sheet I had signed and placed a deposit on a car that was two months out for delivery. Nowhere does it state the deposit was "non-refundable". You being the attorney, must be able to argue the flip side of the coin... how would you have represented Mark had Infiniti kept his deposit without producing any contract stating said deposit was non-refundable?
BTW, I shouldn't have been so flip earlier with the JD question, I enjoy getting others' blood to boil. But your constant dropping the "legal" "law" bombs, and general negative tone, implies a lack of tact. Anyway, each state is different in regards to contractual law.
Has anyone noticed the new Edmund's Pricing for the '06 Audi A6? The S-Line & Tech packages start sending the price way above where I had previously priced it out... Just when you thought they would try to reel the clients back in... Maybe they assume all Edmund's forumites would march behind Mark's return to the "Vorspung durch technik"!
You must decide for yourself if the apparent treatment that I received (or so it seems) was a series of unfortunate events or something else altogether.
My first reaction is to say "good for Audi!" After all they have restored my faith in the value of "customer/vendor loyalty." On the other hand, there is a less positive spin on this. The negative spin could be that they had to be forced into doing this, they really don't value loyalty, but they got themselves in a situation where they had to do something.
The "channels" of communication in a company could be cited as the reason for the slow to respond to my requests (early on) for a competitive situation. One small step -- they came through with a willingness to value a customer's loyalty; and, I happen to be that customer.
I cannot see the future so I probably should not assume this was a less than genuine response. I have no evidence that it is. There was, apparently, a rush to recognize the value of being a customer since 1977. I may be miffed that I went through this process, but ultimately pleased that it worked out the way I had stated I wanted all along.
My immediate response is to say thanks right back at them. Does this mean I will "automatically" acquire Audi #29? No. But it does mean I will automatically shop for another Audi about 30 to 32 months from now. The automotive landscape has changed so much in just the last 3 years, I can only imagine it will accelerate even more in the next 3.
Until or unless I find this really was an imperfect act, I will say this experience (and I still don't have the car YET) has restored my faith in the value of loyalty and a "reasoned" approach.
On the other hand, I certainly owe a thanks to the Town Hall here and one or two additional Internet web log sites for allowing me the opportunity to learn and share experiences, facts and opinions pertaining to cars.
The deal currently is, Infiniti has without issue accepted my order cancellation and refunded my deposit; Audi, in turn, has taken a deposit from me and claims this will be a "done deal" for THE car (as noted in a previous post) within a week or so.
The car, fresh off the boat -- so to speak -- is physically in Detroit. MI car dealers are NOT open on Saturday, the day I placed the deposit on the new Audi after the call from the Infiniti dealer came through as noted.
The initial call came into me on Thursday. It seems to be moving with all deliberate speed on everyone's part. The reason for the no returned call on Friday was simply that it was the manager's day off, it has come to pass.
Initial lesson -- there can be value in being loyal to a brand. At least this adventure thus far is one small step in that direction. And, one big leap in my favor.
I have heard this for half of my life, hang in there!
In the end, I don't see how the local (or long distance) Infiniti organization could possibly match the personal service you have received and have so graphically described the past year or so from Northland Audi, they seem to be about as good as a dealer can get!
Dealer service has always been at least an "8" and based on a lot of the posts I read here and elsewhere -- my dealer has from time to time been a 9.999. That was never the issue just in case you're just tuning in (not you marleybarr).
In March the apples to apples deal (for two new cars a new A4 3.2 and an A6 3.2) was $293 (combined) more than "the competition."
Many folks here were publishing their buying experiences -- the press was loving the Acura, Inifinit and even the new Lexus. Sure the Audis were receiving their share of positive press, but rarely were the new Audis "in the American Car Magazine" comparos topping the class.
I concluded that the new A4 and A6 were the best Audis ever. But I also concluded (and was persuaded in no small measure by some of the posters here on edmunds) that I should at least look elsewhere in this new batch of LPS cars for an alternative.
I came to feel that as good as the Audis were (and that has not changed) that they were not competitive in the new league in which they had, finally, earned entry into (Premium -- just so we're on the same page.)
The "value proposition" seemed out of wack (to me). The sales figures in "the class" indicated that the Audi (which as often as not had a lower MSRP or could be had with a V8 when the comparable "competitive" car had a 6) was fundamentally not competitive from a leasing standpoint (and I was told that 43% of Audis are leased, I can assume that means a minority are actually purchased in cash).
Anyway dealer treatment and dealer service department treatment was never an issue. $300 a month MORE for somewhat less content was the issue from both my wife's and my perspective.
If Audi is meeting their sales objectives, I guess they don't need me. Over the past three months, however, unbeknownst to me, apparently, my long term sales rep had carried my message "through channels" until last Thursday the right person got the message and said "we value our long term customers."
Today I should find out if all the ducks are in a row and if this really will play out as I hope and have been told.
I know there have been dealer issues (with several brand names), the dealer here in Cincinnati "The Audi Connection" (formerly known as Northland Audi) has been and remains exemplary.
The dealer in Detroit has agreed to let me have the car (otherwise another search or a factory order would have to be placed). The estimated time of PDI (the car has not been PDI'd yet) and shipping, etc is ~ 3 or 4 days. I can pick up the car on Friday or Saturday. They have a $500 deposit from me. I have the VERBAL from my long time salesman on the exterior and interior and options (and the mo pay). The sec dep is $0.00.
Although this STILL isn't a done deal, it will be or should be done this week.
Of course, I will dutifully report on the process.
For those of you who may think I am not aware of what I will not get with this A6 vs the M35X, I assure you I am aware that the Audi is 255HP, the Infiniti is 280HP. The Infiniti with the Technology Package will have advanced cruise control and lane departure warning. The Audi will have Parktronic the Infiniti will have a rear camera.
The Audi will have no extra charge maintenance, the Infiniti will not. The Audi will probably get a mile or two better gas milage.
The differences are real and for the most part, subtle. The Audi has heated front and rear seats, the Infiniti has heated and cooled front seats only. The list of differences did not escape my consideration.
After all was said and done, despite the fact that I had mentally resigned myself to leaving Audi and moving to Infiniti, the two cars are about as close as possible to each other in content as could be arranged. Perhaps if the Audi could have had the V8 (and all the other stuff) the feeling of victory would have been greater.
Since I had selected the Audi as my first choice -- until it became too pricey -- I am now, essentially, where I wanted to be all along.
A somewhat small nit: I had wanted Green Pearl (#1 choice) or Silver Metallic (#2 choice). Infiniti does not offer green, Audi does. I wanted Amaretto, Infiniti calls theirs Bourbon. Instead of a silver/bourbon M35X, I ended up with my #1 choice of green/amaretto. You give up a little, you get a little.
The Audi has the 6spd transmission (may have tip lag); the Infiniti has a 5spd (it too may have lag). The Audi has bi-xenons, the Infiniti just on the low-beams.
My biggest gripe with the Audi all along, excluding the value proposition, was the 0-60 mph acceleration figures. The Audi is published at 0-100 kph as 7.1 seconds. The Infiniti publishes their numbers in mph. It still seems, though that the Infiniti will be ~ 1/2 second quicker.
It is a bone of contention -- once again, I ask Audi marketing "what were you thinking bringing a $50K car to the market that couldn't be 0-60mph at 6.9 seconds?"
To repeat, full reports will follow.
I do owe thanks to this board and the edmunds people for essentially sponsoring a great and powerful tool for commerce, truth, justice and the American way (was that over the top?)
Well, the A6 3.2 is competitive with the GS300 and RL. The only difference is the last RL and GS300 were a lot slower, where as the 2.7T was faster, so Audi is the only one that took a step backward.
The Audi has less torque and horsepower. Having said that the final drive ratio seems to be slightly taller on the Audi (which tends to make it less quick, too) -- and the Audi has 6 speeds. The Audi "ought to be" in its sweet spot slightly more of the time because of the additional gear.
The Audi, as I recall, weighs a bit more. The Audi, probably due to its transmission and final drive ratio (and one would hope FSI engine) "ought to" get a couple miles per gallon more.
The performance is reasonably close -- but like the post above said, Audi's ~ $50K 2.7T S-Line had 265HP and about 280 lb feet of torque at a sub 2,000 RPM engine speed. It was able to sprint in the low 6's to 100kph (~62mph).
Audi replaces, at the price point, the 2004 A6 2.7T with the 2005 A6 3.2 -- and drops over 1/2 second in quickness in a field of cars where sub 7.0 times are considered "standard, normal expectations."
I've (we've) hammered this to death -- if ever I see one of you folks in your "insert LPS car name/brand here," I seriously doubt we'll have a drag race.
It will just remain a small bone of contention -- I would hope the upcoming A6's will come to market a hair (or hare) quicker.
While I'm in wish mode, I would also wish for a better weight balance and while I'm spending Audi's engineering money, would also hope that they will bias slightly the torque to the rear (just to shut the writers at C&D and R&T, etc up). The fact that the quatttro is nominally 50 50 bias (but can shift torque when needed F or R) is a much smaller nit than the 0-60 times (speaking only for myself, that is.)
The Volvo and Acura AWD systems, so I have read are 95% FWD and 5% RWD but can apportion torque appropriately and instantly as circumstances call for. Yet, the car magazines do have a point about the RWD bias offered by BMW and Mercedes (and Infiniti) to name a few. So, Audi -- next gen quattro, how about a 40 60 split and better weight balance? Thanks, Hans!
And, "no" I do not think leaving the shift in "S" will make it quicker than simply flooring it from a full stop. My impressions are that S mode simply tends to eliminate/reduce tip lag since each gear is held longer before upshift, keeping the revs (hence the torque) at full boil.
This information may not sway the brand decision but it might affect where you purchase your car:
I have owned a BMW in the past ('89 525 full Hartge package). And was always well taken care of at Long Beach BMW, CA.
I recently helped a friend buy a CPO, '03 Z4 3.0 (600 miles) from Herb Chambers BMW, Boston, MA. When it was taken into Inskip BMW, RI for warranty repairs, she was told that "free" loaners are only provided if, a) you purchase the car from them, and purchase a premium service package that will include a "free" loaner. This policy applies to all of Inskip's brands, Volvo, Audi, Mercedes, etc. I dont know about you, but to pay the kind of money they want, and to have to pay for a loaner for warranty repairs (which is probably billed back to BMW anyway) goes beyond the pale.
Based on my experience at Long Beach BMW vs. Inskip, I called BMW USA to confirm their acceptance of the Inskip policy and was told that the availability of loaners, free or otherwise, is at the discretion of the dealers!
I suppose the irony of this "free" loaner policy is lost on the folks that run Inskip BMW but make sure you ask what the service policy is at the dealership you purchase from. Even the free BMW service isn't free if you have to pay for the loaner.
I would "skip" Inskip if shopping for a BMW in RI/MA/CT.
she was told that "free" loaners are only provided if, a) you purchase the car from them, and purchase a premium service package that will include a "free" loaner.
FYI: Part A is the same policy at Tulley BMW in Nashua NH (free loaner only if you buy the car there). I don't know about Part B (having to buy the premium service package), but I'll ask. I took out a 525i a few hours ago, and I think I'm going to move up to a 530i. During the next test drive, I'll bring it up.
Even free loaners aren't all they're cracked up to be. Where I take my car, they give you a free loaner regardless of where you bought; you need only to have made an appointment. But they have a contract with enterprise, and what you get is the cheapest of the cheap cars. At least it's something to drive at no cost to me and I appreciate having it, but to go from my 5er into a Corolla is quite a shock. Fortunately, I have my Lexus to fall back on, and I use the loaner only to go back and forth to the dealer.
My dealership here in the suburbs of Chicago provides free loaners regardless of where you bought the car. The loaner is always a BMW even if they have to use a rental car company to provide one. Last time I needed one they used a rental company and gave me an X3 (a very base-model X3). So I guess it's not standard across the board.
The BMW store here in River City lets you have a BMW when you take your car in, even on Saturdays.
The Audi store has "X" number of Audis and if you get there at the right time you will get an Audi. Otherwise you get an Enterprise car, but it is usually a "mid size" not the cheapie you mentioned. Indeed, the Enterprise loaner I got once or twice was a Volvo S40!
I don't know how many loaners you would have to have to always always always get THE loaner of THE brand -- perhpas Lexus has it down to a science that Audi does not.
Thus far we've always gotten an X3 when my wife's X3 is in for service -- I don't know if we're just lucky or if all their loaners are X3's -- somehow I doubt it, though.
Audi, once or twice let me take an S4 home for the overnight when my allroad was in for service. My wife has been given a TT previously when her TT was in for service too -- usually though it is just a "nice" A4 quattro with the 4 cylinder du jour. Lots of A4 1.8T's as loaners these days.
The Lexus dealer in Marin always asks if I'll need a loaner during maintenance etc. It's a good way to test drive their other models. I think Infiniti of Marin also has a similar contract with Enterprise (or was it Audi who had the agreement?). I have to agree, going from an LPS to a cheaper car [edited] is an ego crusher... or a modesty strengthener...
At this price level, I would expect a loaner, not necessarily one of the same mark, though it would be preferred. VW use to give me a loaner when in for warranty work. My GTI would get swapped for Passats or jettas.
My Lexus dealer only schedules so many maintenance/warranty jobs to do on a given day. They do tend to fill up their loaner orders quickly, but if you schedule in advance, they're quite accomodating.
I believe Infiniti has a nationwide program of no extra cost service loaners. Audi,unfortuneately, does not. Here in Minneapolis/St. Paul, service loaners by Enterprise are provided as courtesy loaners only if the Audi was purchased locally. Even though both Audi dealers are owned by the same holding company, buying in Minneapolis and servicing in St. Paul, and (vice a versa) will not produce a no-extra cost loaner vehicle. Both Audi dealers run an apparently independent business here and don't encourage cross operations for the Audi owner.
I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't a big savings. I didn't want Jim Moran earning his extra 5 state markup on me. I paid $550 to have it trucked down (on a huge car carrier which picked up my car in New Hampshire but originated in Massachusetts). When they said they had two dropoffs before mine at Mercedes of Ft. Lauderdale, it made me feel better that a local dearer was using them too. All the arrangements for trucking and financing were handled by Autofair. Go to their website and go to Toyota and they list the price they will sell you the vehicle for. Great experience buying a car. BTW, we wound up saving net of shipping a total of about $2300, which basically was like buying the car tax-free.
The shock isn't so much to the ego as it is to the hands and feet (and the nervous system, for that matter)--sloppy steering, brakes that need the force of an elephant to stop the car...the Corolla (which used to be a fairly decent car way back in the early 80s) was a sad disappointment. I couldn't wait to get home and get out of it. The Dodge Stratus was not great either, but it sure beat the Corolla.
I agree that these cars are less than one would expect at this price level, but when the alternative is walking home, who am I to complain?
markcincinnati, my Lexus dealer also runs out of Lexi and goes to enterprise, but I have always managed to get there in time for a Lexus. (Except once when I got stuck with a Saturn, and it was hilarious...my son couldn't figure out how to open the nonpower windows!) :P
Am I to assume that warranty issues will be taken care of by your local Florida Toyota dealer where you did not purchase the car? This doesn't sound like a bad deal since Toyota has no policy of "free loaners" anyway, unless the vehicle has to stay overnite, or something like this.
Looked at Autofair's website, seemed clear and to the point.$550 for freight is not out of line and it does seem that you were satisfied with the so-called Internet/telephone buying experience.
When I called the local Audi dealer where I go for service and have been going for years, I spoke to the person in charge of lease turn ins. He told me because I leased my new Audi A6 at a different dealer, I have to turn my old A6 in where I leased the new one. Apparently, the Audi dealer where the car was originally leased is the only one that HAS to take my old lease back. If another dealer will take it back as a courtesy turn in, it's up to that dealers discretion. This was straight from Audi financial. I told them take my car in or I will service new one elsewhere. Bottom line is after I spoke to a manager, they took my old lease back. Also, something else I learned is that if the check engine light is on when you turn your old lease in, Audi automatically charges you $500 plus tax. My light was on at preinspection and he told me of this problem. I took it to Audi to get it shut off...got the turn in bill yesterday. The $500 is still on bill plus the $30 tax. Called them today and faxed over receipt for shut off of light. You'd think they would have looked at the car and seen the light isn't on anymore. Hope this helps somebody as it probably applies to many brands of cars, not just Audi.
Looks like there is no consistant loaner program in effect at any brand.
For the record, my Volvo T5 was purchased and serviced at South Bay Volvo in Torrance, CA and provided I called in advance I would always have a free loaner, usually, if available, a higher level vehicle than the one being serviced.
From a strictly marketing point of view, a smart dealer (those that monitor these forums for customer feedback?) as mentioned in other responses, would use the free loaner as an opportunity to get their customers into more expensive vehicles and possibly make a future sale (sell up); The loaner is appreciated, and engenders customer loyalty, a concept that brands boast about all the time, but that (many) dealers don't seem to get or only pay lip service to.
One other observation from a marketing point of view, Enterprise have a pretty effective program going by putting outlets into dealership service bays around the country.
I wonder how much rent and/or kickback the dealers get for giving them a few feet of floor space?
My Lexus dealer is also a Toyota and Scion dealer. Its a one stop TMC shop, I think thats pretty rare. Anyway, if either our LS or RX is in for service, we usually get ES330s, or sometimes Avalons. No complaints. If its my wife she'll drive the loaner, but if its my car the loaner just sits in the driveway, waiting for the guy from Lexus to come back and get it.
Free scheduled maintainence would be nice, but not having to kill an hour and a half to get to the dealer and back is better.
“unhook the Inifiniti deal and go with a new Audi A6 3.2 with all the bells and whistles.” – Mark 17 June 2005
“The Audi has the 6spd transmission (may have tip lag); the Infiniti has a 5spd (it too may have lag). The Audi has bi-xenons, the Infiniti just on the low-beams.” - Mark 20 June
Ummm – so this would mean you are (willingly) going with the 6 speed Tip – vs. the manual trans. (As you would have gone with a 5 speed “Tip equivalent”? in the M35x.)
Mark - Have you given up on a manual trans. completely? (And yes, I understand that AoA does not currently offer a manual with the 3.2 in the A6.)
And are you reasonably convinced (through test drives, reading, etc.) that the infamous and long discussed “Tip Lag” will not be an issue for you in this A6?
Are you convinced (resigned?) that an occasional “fix” from driving The Lawyer’s BMW w/manual will work for you?
In any case, sincere best wishes with Audi # 2X – and I do hope the driving experience is ‘better than’ the purchase experience . . .
I have never had a problem getting a loaner from Acura when the MDX is in for service (usually a TL, one time a new one with 7 miles on the odometer). Nor have loaners been an issue with Infiniti when my FX35 is in for service.
In any current car from any of the LPS companies (BMW ONLY excluded) the only choice is an auto.
I fully expect some "tip" lag from the Audi. I also expected it from the Infiniti.
This is different from saying I "like it" or I "want it" -- I do know how to somewhat to mostly mitigate it. I didn't want a BMW 5 series x or non-x. The US transmissions (as would be in the Cadillac STS AWD) might not have "tip" lag -- I would NOT be surprised if they too had the same issue.
An Audi S4 was my more distant third choice: #1 A6, #2 M35X and #3 S4.
My 1997, 1999, 2000 and 2001 Audis all had 5 speed automatics and they all had lag.
For this being only slightly related to the subject cars. I'm doing a resto-mod on a '80 Chevrolet Malibu coupe. Compared to the earlier Malibus that are usually restored, this vintage is lighter (3350 lbs), smaller outside, & larger inside. It will have many performance, comfort & luxury upgrades including but not limited to Flofit bucket seats, similar in build & design to the better import brands. Drivetrain is a 385 hp/385 lb-ft emissions legal V8 & a 4-speed A/T operated via a B&M Pro Ratchet Shifter. The shifter offers regular operation like any automatic or positive manual selection of any gear. It is impossible to miss a gear when manually shifting because each time you hammer the shifter it simply moves up (forward) or down (rearward) to the next adjacent gear. Any manually selected gear is positively maintained till the next adjacent gear (or "D") is selected.
It's nice knowing my car will be just over 1/2 the cost of those reviewed here, could appreciate in value instead of depreciate, & will easily walk away from any of them up to well over the ton, where the Malibu's frontal area will minimize it's top speed. I am well aware of the safety & luxury advantages of the newer cars. The cost in taxes, registration & depreciation are also enormous.
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No large business has time to go to small claims court over matters like $500 or $1000 deposits... They would lose money over time..
Now, if you had special ordered that fuschia metallic with the lemon interior.....
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You signed the check, didn't you? Probably with some notation on the memo line? If so, you may have entered into a contract under the UCC and the dealer can not only keep your deposit but sue for his profit. Now, in the real world, kyfdx is probably right that they won't bother. However, . . .
I run a specialty retail store and have had many cases through the last 21 years where items were "special ordered" so to speak, and the customer cancelled (for a variety of reasons) before delivery. My receipt says "no refunds" and I offer the customer an in store credit toward other merchandise. If his application does have the no refund clause, receiving an "in-store" credit w/ Infiniti would be the next best thing, of course, assuming he decides not to go through with the deal.
Both my wife and I, while pleased that Audi came through in the 11th hour, are still somewhat miffed that it came about this way. Having said that, I am NOT going to court -- there will soon be a car on a boat heading for the US that is what I had ordered. I am not pitting one company against the other at this stage for yet another price cut from Infiniti. I had made my "public" piece here (and elsewhere) and as y'all must know, I would have gone with the Audi had they been even a little MORE than the Infiniti way back in March when I made the decision and then on April 1 when I gave the deposit and filled out the credit app.
Background:
When we ordered my wife's new BMW (that, too, had to be built and shipped to the US), she filled out a credit app, configured and negotiated the upfronts and monthly payment. When the paperwork was presented to her she read ALL of it (she is an attorney). She told me the BMW paperwork said that the dealer had the right to the refund of the deposit -- at the dealer's discretion -- once the car actually arrived. I guess this means that the dealer could say AFTER the car was on his lot and the customer refused it, "I'll keep $500 for my trouble." Or, "I'll refund the $1,000 and sell the car to someone else." Or, "Under the agreement you signed, I'll keep the entire $1,000 -- tough luck, lady."
The typical dealer will -- or so says my dealer -- NEVER keep the deposit. However, the dealer may keep the deposit UNTIL the car that you ordered in Lime Green Metallic without air conditioning and an AM radio is sold.
My Audi dealer is a Porsche dealer. Once in some 25 years did they temporarily hold the deposit of a person who did order a completely stripped Porsche in a less than popular color. They claim the delay in the refund of the deposit was 3 weeks.
Unlike my wife, I did not sign such an agreement. I signed a credit app and they faxed me a Purchase Order with the specific breakdown of the car and the agreed upon price. No where in any document I signed was there "contract" language that (like the BMW agreement) specified the "dealer's discretion." Indeed the Purchase Order did not even mention the deposit.
I used a Debit/Credit MasterCard for the deposit. I have the electronic and hard copy notice from the Bank/Card showing the deposit was made to such and such Infiniti dealer -- that's it.
This, as far as I am concerned, is NOT worth a fight. If there is any reason for the Infiniti dealer to legitimately (let's call it ethically NOT legally under some interpretation of the UCC that I am not aware of -- and I am NOT a lawyer, just so you know) keep the deposit, well "sweet home Infiniti it shall be for me."
I will, however, not be happy if the Infiniti dealer simply goes silent. This seems to be the approach at this time (2 days of silence after 2 voice mails, one person to person call and an email.)
The person to person call was to the Internet sales manager who apparently has to get everything, including carry out pizza, approved (not that this makes him in any way anything other than a victim, he seems like a nice guy.)
The tale continues, and I thank you all for your input.
However, as I've said all along, most vendors as a matter of good will would refund the deposit.
As far as your statement about ordering and following through, I wish every customer had your sense of business responsibility. Unfortuneately, the "no refund" statement is a necessary and vital part of doing business in this litigous society that we live in. Customers change their minds on a minute by minute basis, and the seller /buyer must have some guidelines upon entering a transaction.
Delivery of an automobile IS the most critical issue of all. I challenge you to check w/ the AG office of your state and inquire as to the law pertaining to the return of pre-delivery deposits versus after delivery returns of motor vehicles.
I bet Ifiniti changes the way they do business on the Internet after this, you will now see "no refunds" plastered all over the P.O.!!
"Mark, I see you have been buying Audis since 1977 and I know that we would do everything in our power to keep a long-term customer like you, too."
End.
Putting a deposit down on your toilet paper, and then deciding not to follow-through with the purchase when the toilet paper arrives, and abandoning the deposit...? Well... Unless an agreement was signed stating the non-refundable status of the deposit, I don't believe the purveyor of toilet paper would have much of a case to hold the deposit unless he can prove that the toilet paper has a lesser value on the market than the price he paid for it. eg. the toilet paper was 60 grit which noone but this customer had an interest in prior to the special order.
As you said, we would have to review Mark's paperwork more closely.
I went back into my "car" file to find the order sheet I had signed and placed a deposit on a car that was two months out for delivery. Nowhere does it state the deposit was "non-refundable". You being the attorney, must be able to argue the flip side of the coin... how would you have represented Mark had Infiniti kept his deposit without producing any contract stating said deposit was non-refundable?
BTW, I shouldn't have been so flip earlier with the JD question, I enjoy getting others' blood to boil. But your constant dropping the "legal" "law" bombs, and general negative tone, implies a lack of tact. Anyway, each state is different in regards to contractual law.
Bedtime in California, Cheers.
My first reaction is to say "good for Audi!" After all they have restored my faith in the value of "customer/vendor loyalty." On the other hand, there is a less positive spin on this. The negative spin could be that they had to be forced into doing this, they really don't value loyalty, but they got themselves in a situation where they had to do something.
The "channels" of communication in a company could be cited as the reason for the slow to respond to my requests (early on) for a competitive situation. One small step -- they came through with a willingness to value a customer's loyalty; and, I happen to be that customer.
I cannot see the future so I probably should not assume this was a less than genuine response. I have no evidence that it is. There was, apparently, a rush to recognize the value of being a customer since 1977. I may be miffed that I went through this process, but ultimately pleased that it worked out the way I had stated I wanted all along.
My immediate response is to say thanks right back at them. Does this mean I will "automatically" acquire Audi #29? No. But it does mean I will automatically shop for another Audi about 30 to 32 months from now. The automotive landscape has changed so much in just the last 3 years, I can only imagine it will accelerate even more in the next 3.
Until or unless I find this really was an imperfect act, I will say this experience (and I still don't have the car YET) has restored my faith in the value of loyalty and a "reasoned" approach.
On the other hand, I certainly owe a thanks to the Town Hall here and one or two additional Internet web log sites for allowing me the opportunity to learn and share experiences, facts and opinions pertaining to cars.
The deal currently is, Infiniti has without issue accepted my order cancellation and refunded my deposit; Audi, in turn, has taken a deposit from me and claims this will be a "done deal" for THE car (as noted in a previous post) within a week or so.
The car, fresh off the boat -- so to speak -- is physically in Detroit. MI car dealers are NOT open on Saturday, the day I placed the deposit on the new Audi after the call from the Infiniti dealer came through as noted.
The initial call came into me on Thursday. It seems to be moving with all deliberate speed on everyone's part. The reason for the no returned call on Friday was simply that it was the manager's day off, it has come to pass.
Initial lesson -- there can be value in being loyal to a brand. At least this adventure thus far is one small step in that direction. And, one big leap in my favor.
I have heard this for half of my life, hang in there!
Good luck with the A6. It's a great car and I truly think you will be happier with the Audi than the Infiniti even though the M is also a great car.
Keep us informed.
In March the apples to apples deal (for two new cars a new A4 3.2 and an A6 3.2) was $293 (combined) more than "the competition."
Many folks here were publishing their buying experiences -- the press was loving the Acura, Inifinit and even the new Lexus. Sure the Audis were receiving their share of positive press, but rarely were the new Audis "in the American Car Magazine" comparos topping the class.
I concluded that the new A4 and A6 were the best Audis ever. But I also concluded (and was persuaded in no small measure by some of the posters here on edmunds) that I should at least look elsewhere in this new batch of LPS cars for an alternative.
I came to feel that as good as the Audis were (and that has not changed) that they were not competitive in the new league in which they had, finally, earned entry into (Premium -- just so we're on the same page.)
The "value proposition" seemed out of wack (to me). The sales figures in "the class" indicated that the Audi (which as often as not had a lower MSRP or could be had with a V8 when the comparable "competitive" car had a 6) was fundamentally not competitive from a leasing standpoint (and I was told that 43% of Audis are leased, I can assume that means a minority are actually purchased in cash).
Anyway dealer treatment and dealer service department treatment was never an issue. $300 a month MORE for somewhat less content was the issue from both my wife's and my perspective.
If Audi is meeting their sales objectives, I guess they don't need me. Over the past three months, however, unbeknownst to me, apparently, my long term sales rep had carried my message "through channels" until last Thursday the right person got the message and said "we value our long term customers."
Today I should find out if all the ducks are in a row and if this really will play out as I hope and have been told.
I know there have been dealer issues (with several brand names), the dealer here in Cincinnati "The Audi Connection" (formerly known as Northland Audi) has been and remains exemplary.
Although this STILL isn't a done deal, it will be or should be done this week.
Of course, I will dutifully report on the process.
For those of you who may think I am not aware of what I will not get with this A6 vs the M35X, I assure you I am aware that the Audi is 255HP, the Infiniti is 280HP. The Infiniti with the Technology Package will have advanced cruise control and lane departure warning. The Audi will have Parktronic the Infiniti will have a rear camera.
The Audi will have no extra charge maintenance, the Infiniti will not. The Audi will probably get a mile or two better gas milage.
The differences are real and for the most part, subtle. The Audi has heated front and rear seats, the Infiniti has heated and cooled front seats only. The list of differences did not escape my consideration.
After all was said and done, despite the fact that I had mentally resigned myself to leaving Audi and moving to Infiniti, the two cars are about as close as possible to each other in content as could be arranged. Perhaps if the Audi could have had the V8 (and all the other stuff) the feeling of victory would have been greater.
Since I had selected the Audi as my first choice -- until it became too pricey -- I am now, essentially, where I wanted to be all along.
A somewhat small nit: I had wanted Green Pearl (#1 choice) or Silver Metallic (#2 choice). Infiniti does not offer green, Audi does. I wanted Amaretto, Infiniti calls theirs Bourbon. Instead of a silver/bourbon M35X, I ended up with my #1 choice of green/amaretto. You give up a little, you get a little.
The Audi has the 6spd transmission (may have tip lag); the Infiniti has a 5spd (it too may have lag). The Audi has bi-xenons, the Infiniti just on the low-beams.
My biggest gripe with the Audi all along, excluding the value proposition, was the 0-60 mph acceleration figures. The Audi is published at 0-100 kph as 7.1 seconds. The Infiniti publishes their numbers in mph. It still seems, though that the Infiniti will be ~ 1/2 second quicker.
It is a bone of contention -- once again, I ask Audi marketing "what were you thinking bringing a $50K car to the market that couldn't be 0-60mph at 6.9 seconds?"
To repeat, full reports will follow.
I do owe thanks to this board and the edmunds people for essentially sponsoring a great and powerful tool for commerce, truth, justice and the American way (was that over the top?)
The Audi, as I recall, weighs a bit more. The Audi, probably due to its transmission and final drive ratio (and one would hope FSI engine) "ought to" get a couple miles per gallon more.
The performance is reasonably close -- but like the post above said, Audi's ~ $50K 2.7T S-Line had 265HP and about 280 lb feet of torque at a sub 2,000 RPM engine speed. It was able to sprint in the low 6's to 100kph (~62mph).
Audi replaces, at the price point, the 2004 A6 2.7T with the 2005 A6 3.2 -- and drops over 1/2 second in quickness in a field of cars where sub 7.0 times are considered "standard, normal expectations."
I've (we've) hammered this to death -- if ever I see one of you folks in your "insert LPS car name/brand here," I seriously doubt we'll have a drag race.
It will just remain a small bone of contention -- I would hope the upcoming A6's will come to market a hair (or hare) quicker.
While I'm in wish mode, I would also wish for a better weight balance and while I'm spending Audi's engineering money, would also hope that they will bias slightly the torque to the rear (just to shut the writers at C&D and R&T, etc up). The fact that the quatttro is nominally 50 50 bias (but can shift torque when needed F or R) is a much smaller nit than the 0-60 times (speaking only for myself, that is.)
The Volvo and Acura AWD systems, so I have read are 95% FWD and 5% RWD but can apportion torque appropriately and instantly as circumstances call for. Yet, the car magazines do have a point about the RWD bias offered by BMW and Mercedes (and Infiniti) to name a few. So, Audi -- next gen quattro, how about a 40 60 split and better weight balance? Thanks, Hans!
And, "no" I do not think leaving the shift in "S" will make it quicker than simply flooring it from a full stop. My impressions are that S mode simply tends to eliminate/reduce tip lag since each gear is held longer before upshift, keeping the revs (hence the torque) at full boil.
I have owned a BMW in the past ('89 525 full Hartge package). And was always well taken care of at Long Beach BMW, CA.
I recently helped a friend buy a CPO, '03 Z4 3.0 (600 miles) from Herb Chambers BMW, Boston, MA. When it was taken into Inskip BMW, RI for warranty repairs, she was told that "free" loaners are only provided if, a) you purchase the car from them, and
Based on my experience at Long Beach BMW vs. Inskip, I called BMW USA to confirm their acceptance of the Inskip policy and was told that the availability of loaners, free or otherwise, is at the discretion of the dealers!
I suppose the irony of this "free" loaner policy is lost on the folks that run Inskip BMW but make sure you ask what the service policy is at the dealership you purchase from. Even the free BMW service isn't free if you have to pay for the loaner.
I would "skip" Inskip if shopping for a BMW in RI/MA/CT.
FYI: Part A is the same policy at Tulley BMW in Nashua NH (free loaner only if you buy the car there). I don't know about Part B (having to buy the premium service package), but I'll ask. I took out a 525i a few hours ago, and I think I'm going to move up to a 530i. During the next test drive, I'll bring it up.
Thanks for the info!
The Lexus sure spoiled me...free Lexus loaners.
The Audi store has "X" number of Audis and if you get there at the right time you will get an Audi. Otherwise you get an Enterprise car, but it is usually a "mid size" not the cheapie you mentioned. Indeed, the Enterprise loaner I got once or twice was a Volvo S40!
I don't know how many loaners you would have to have to always always always get THE loaner of THE brand -- perhpas Lexus has it down to a science that Audi does not.
Thus far we've always gotten an X3 when my wife's X3 is in for service -- I don't know if we're just lucky or if all their loaners are X3's -- somehow I doubt it, though.
Audi, once or twice let me take an S4 home for the overnight when my allroad was in for service. My wife has been given a TT previously when her TT was in for service too -- usually though it is just a "nice" A4 quattro with the 4 cylinder du jour. Lots of A4 1.8T's as loaners these days.
At this price level, I would expect a loaner, not necessarily one of the same mark, though it would be preferred. VW use to give me a loaner when in for warranty work. My GTI would get swapped for Passats or jettas.
Cheers.
I agree that these cars are less than one would expect at this price level, but when the alternative is walking home, who am I to complain?
markcincinnati, my Lexus dealer also runs out of Lexi and goes to enterprise, but I have always managed to get there in time for a Lexus. (Except once when I got stuck with a Saturn, and it was hilarious...my son couldn't figure out how to open the nonpower windows!) :P
Looked at Autofair's website, seemed clear and to the point.$550 for freight is not out of line and it does seem that you were satisfied with the so-called Internet/telephone buying experience.
For the record, my Volvo T5 was purchased and serviced at South Bay Volvo in Torrance, CA and provided I called in advance I would always have a free loaner, usually, if available, a higher level vehicle than the one being serviced.
From a strictly marketing point of view, a smart dealer (those that monitor these forums for customer feedback?) as mentioned in other responses, would use the free loaner as an opportunity to get their customers into more expensive vehicles and possibly make a future sale (sell up); The loaner is appreciated, and engenders customer loyalty, a concept that brands boast about all the time, but that (many) dealers don't seem to get or only pay lip service to.
One other observation from a marketing point of view, Enterprise have a pretty effective program going by putting outlets into dealership service bays around the country.
I wonder how much rent and/or kickback the dealers get for giving them a few feet of floor space?
Free scheduled maintainence would be nice, but not having to kill an hour and a half to get to the dealer and back is better.
“The Audi has the 6spd transmission (may have tip lag); the Infiniti has a 5spd (it too may have lag). The Audi has bi-xenons, the Infiniti just on the low-beams.” - Mark 20 June
Ummm – so this would mean you are (willingly) going with the 6 speed Tip – vs. the manual trans. (As you would have gone with a 5 speed “Tip equivalent”? in the M35x.)
Mark - Have you given up on a manual trans. completely? (And yes, I understand that AoA does not currently offer a manual with the 3.2 in the A6.)
And are you reasonably convinced (through test drives, reading, etc.) that the infamous and long discussed “Tip Lag” will not be an issue for you in this A6?
Are you convinced (resigned?) that an occasional “fix” from driving The Lawyer’s BMW w/manual will work for you?
In any case, sincere best wishes with Audi # 2X – and I do hope the driving experience is ‘better than’ the purchase experience . . .
- Ray
Just VERY curious . . .
I fully expect some "tip" lag from the Audi. I also expected it from the Infiniti.
This is different from saying I "like it" or I "want it" -- I do know how to somewhat to mostly mitigate it. I didn't want a BMW 5 series x or non-x. The US transmissions (as would be in the Cadillac STS AWD) might not have "tip" lag -- I would NOT be surprised if they too had the same issue.
An Audi S4 was my more distant third choice: #1 A6, #2 M35X and #3 S4.
My 1997, 1999, 2000 and 2001 Audis all had 5 speed automatics and they all had lag.
It's nice knowing my car will be just over 1/2 the cost of those reviewed here, could appreciate in value instead of depreciate, & will easily walk away from any of them up to well over the ton, where the Malibu's frontal area will minimize it's top speed. I am well aware of the safety & luxury advantages of the newer cars. The cost in taxes, registration & depreciation are also enormous.