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No large business has time to go to small claims court over matters like $500 or $1000 deposits... They would lose money over time..
Now, if you had special ordered that fuschia metallic with the lemon interior.....
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You signed the check, didn't you? Probably with some notation on the memo line? If so, you may have entered into a contract under the UCC and the dealer can not only keep your deposit but sue for his profit. Now, in the real world, kyfdx is probably right that they won't bother. However, . . .
I run a specialty retail store and have had many cases through the last 21 years where items were "special ordered" so to speak, and the customer cancelled (for a variety of reasons) before delivery. My receipt says "no refunds" and I offer the customer an in store credit toward other merchandise. If his application does have the no refund clause, receiving an "in-store" credit w/ Infiniti would be the next best thing, of course, assuming he decides not to go through with the deal.
Both my wife and I, while pleased that Audi came through in the 11th hour, are still somewhat miffed that it came about this way. Having said that, I am NOT going to court -- there will soon be a car on a boat heading for the US that is what I had ordered. I am not pitting one company against the other at this stage for yet another price cut from Infiniti. I had made my "public" piece here (and elsewhere) and as y'all must know, I would have gone with the Audi had they been even a little MORE than the Infiniti way back in March when I made the decision and then on April 1 when I gave the deposit and filled out the credit app.
Background:
When we ordered my wife's new BMW (that, too, had to be built and shipped to the US), she filled out a credit app, configured and negotiated the upfronts and monthly payment. When the paperwork was presented to her she read ALL of it (she is an attorney). She told me the BMW paperwork said that the dealer had the right to the refund of the deposit -- at the dealer's discretion -- once the car actually arrived. I guess this means that the dealer could say AFTER the car was on his lot and the customer refused it, "I'll keep $500 for my trouble." Or, "I'll refund the $1,000 and sell the car to someone else." Or, "Under the agreement you signed, I'll keep the entire $1,000 -- tough luck, lady."
The typical dealer will -- or so says my dealer -- NEVER keep the deposit. However, the dealer may keep the deposit UNTIL the car that you ordered in Lime Green Metallic without air conditioning and an AM radio is sold.
My Audi dealer is a Porsche dealer. Once in some 25 years did they temporarily hold the deposit of a person who did order a completely stripped Porsche in a less than popular color. They claim the delay in the refund of the deposit was 3 weeks.
Unlike my wife, I did not sign such an agreement. I signed a credit app and they faxed me a Purchase Order with the specific breakdown of the car and the agreed upon price. No where in any document I signed was there "contract" language that (like the BMW agreement) specified the "dealer's discretion." Indeed the Purchase Order did not even mention the deposit.
I used a Debit/Credit MasterCard for the deposit. I have the electronic and hard copy notice from the Bank/Card showing the deposit was made to such and such Infiniti dealer -- that's it.
This, as far as I am concerned, is NOT worth a fight. If there is any reason for the Infiniti dealer to legitimately (let's call it ethically NOT legally under some interpretation of the UCC that I am not aware of -- and I am NOT a lawyer, just so you know) keep the deposit, well "sweet home Infiniti it shall be for me."
I will, however, not be happy if the Infiniti dealer simply goes silent. This seems to be the approach at this time (2 days of silence after 2 voice mails, one person to person call and an email.)
The person to person call was to the Internet sales manager who apparently has to get everything, including carry out pizza, approved (not that this makes him in any way anything other than a victim, he seems like a nice guy.)
The tale continues, and I thank you all for your input.
However, as I've said all along, most vendors as a matter of good will would refund the deposit.
As far as your statement about ordering and following through, I wish every customer had your sense of business responsibility. Unfortuneately, the "no refund" statement is a necessary and vital part of doing business in this litigous society that we live in. Customers change their minds on a minute by minute basis, and the seller /buyer must have some guidelines upon entering a transaction.
Delivery of an automobile IS the most critical issue of all. I challenge you to check w/ the AG office of your state and inquire as to the law pertaining to the return of pre-delivery deposits versus after delivery returns of motor vehicles.
I bet Ifiniti changes the way they do business on the Internet after this, you will now see "no refunds" plastered all over the P.O.!!
"Mark, I see you have been buying Audis since 1977 and I know that we would do everything in our power to keep a long-term customer like you, too."
End.
Putting a deposit down on your toilet paper, and then deciding not to follow-through with the purchase when the toilet paper arrives, and abandoning the deposit...? Well... Unless an agreement was signed stating the non-refundable status of the deposit, I don't believe the purveyor of toilet paper would have much of a case to hold the deposit unless he can prove that the toilet paper has a lesser value on the market than the price he paid for it. eg. the toilet paper was 60 grit which noone but this customer had an interest in prior to the special order.
As you said, we would have to review Mark's paperwork more closely.
I went back into my "car" file to find the order sheet I had signed and placed a deposit on a car that was two months out for delivery. Nowhere does it state the deposit was "non-refundable". You being the attorney, must be able to argue the flip side of the coin... how would you have represented Mark had Infiniti kept his deposit without producing any contract stating said deposit was non-refundable?
BTW, I shouldn't have been so flip earlier with the JD question, I enjoy getting others' blood to boil. But your constant dropping the "legal" "law" bombs, and general negative tone, implies a lack of tact. Anyway, each state is different in regards to contractual law.
Bedtime in California, Cheers.
My first reaction is to say "good for Audi!" After all they have restored my faith in the value of "customer/vendor loyalty." On the other hand, there is a less positive spin on this. The negative spin could be that they had to be forced into doing this, they really don't value loyalty, but they got themselves in a situation where they had to do something.
The "channels" of communication in a company could be cited as the reason for the slow to respond to my requests (early on) for a competitive situation. One small step -- they came through with a willingness to value a customer's loyalty; and, I happen to be that customer.
I cannot see the future so I probably should not assume this was a less than genuine response. I have no evidence that it is. There was, apparently, a rush to recognize the value of being a customer since 1977. I may be miffed that I went through this process, but ultimately pleased that it worked out the way I had stated I wanted all along.
My immediate response is to say thanks right back at them. Does this mean I will "automatically" acquire Audi #29? No. But it does mean I will automatically shop for another Audi about 30 to 32 months from now. The automotive landscape has changed so much in just the last 3 years, I can only imagine it will accelerate even more in the next 3.
Until or unless I find this really was an imperfect act, I will say this experience (and I still don't have the car YET) has restored my faith in the value of loyalty and a "reasoned" approach.
On the other hand, I certainly owe a thanks to the Town Hall here and one or two additional Internet web log sites for allowing me the opportunity to learn and share experiences, facts and opinions pertaining to cars.
The deal currently is, Infiniti has without issue accepted my order cancellation and refunded my deposit; Audi, in turn, has taken a deposit from me and claims this will be a "done deal" for THE car (as noted in a previous post) within a week or so.
The car, fresh off the boat -- so to speak -- is physically in Detroit. MI car dealers are NOT open on Saturday, the day I placed the deposit on the new Audi after the call from the Infiniti dealer came through as noted.
The initial call came into me on Thursday. It seems to be moving with all deliberate speed on everyone's part. The reason for the no returned call on Friday was simply that it was the manager's day off, it has come to pass.
Initial lesson -- there can be value in being loyal to a brand. At least this adventure thus far is one small step in that direction. And, one big leap in my favor.
I have heard this for half of my life, hang in there!
Good luck with the A6. It's a great car and I truly think you will be happier with the Audi than the Infiniti even though the M is also a great car.
Keep us informed.
In March the apples to apples deal (for two new cars a new A4 3.2 and an A6 3.2) was $293 (combined) more than "the competition."
Many folks here were publishing their buying experiences -- the press was loving the Acura, Inifinit and even the new Lexus. Sure the Audis were receiving their share of positive press, but rarely were the new Audis "in the American Car Magazine" comparos topping the class.
I concluded that the new A4 and A6 were the best Audis ever. But I also concluded (and was persuaded in no small measure by some of the posters here on edmunds) that I should at least look elsewhere in this new batch of LPS cars for an alternative.
I came to feel that as good as the Audis were (and that has not changed) that they were not competitive in the new league in which they had, finally, earned entry into (Premium -- just so we're on the same page.)
The "value proposition" seemed out of wack (to me). The sales figures in "the class" indicated that the Audi (which as often as not had a lower MSRP or could be had with a V8 when the comparable "competitive" car had a 6) was fundamentally not competitive from a leasing standpoint (and I was told that 43% of Audis are leased, I can assume that means a minority are actually purchased in cash).
Anyway dealer treatment and dealer service department treatment was never an issue. $300 a month MORE for somewhat less content was the issue from both my wife's and my perspective.
If Audi is meeting their sales objectives, I guess they don't need me. Over the past three months, however, unbeknownst to me, apparently, my long term sales rep had carried my message "through channels" until last Thursday the right person got the message and said "we value our long term customers."
Today I should find out if all the ducks are in a row and if this really will play out as I hope and have been told.
I know there have been dealer issues (with several brand names), the dealer here in Cincinnati "The Audi Connection" (formerly known as Northland Audi) has been and remains exemplary.
Although this STILL isn't a done deal, it will be or should be done this week.
Of course, I will dutifully report on the process.
For those of you who may think I am not aware of what I will not get with this A6 vs the M35X, I assure you I am aware that the Audi is 255HP, the Infiniti is 280HP. The Infiniti with the Technology Package will have advanced cruise control and lane departure warning. The Audi will have Parktronic the Infiniti will have a rear camera.
The Audi will have no extra charge maintenance, the Infiniti will not. The Audi will probably get a mile or two better gas milage.
The differences are real and for the most part, subtle. The Audi has heated front and rear seats, the Infiniti has heated and cooled front seats only. The list of differences did not escape my consideration.
After all was said and done, despite the fact that I had mentally resigned myself to leaving Audi and moving to Infiniti, the two cars are about as close as possible to each other in content as could be arranged. Perhaps if the Audi could have had the V8 (and all the other stuff) the feeling of victory would have been greater.
Since I had selected the Audi as my first choice -- until it became too pricey -- I am now, essentially, where I wanted to be all along.
A somewhat small nit: I had wanted Green Pearl (#1 choice) or Silver Metallic (#2 choice). Infiniti does not offer green, Audi does. I wanted Amaretto, Infiniti calls theirs Bourbon. Instead of a silver/bourbon M35X, I ended up with my #1 choice of green/amaretto. You give up a little, you get a little.
The Audi has the 6spd transmission (may have tip lag); the Infiniti has a 5spd (it too may have lag). The Audi has bi-xenons, the Infiniti just on the low-beams.
My biggest gripe with the Audi all along, excluding the value proposition, was the 0-60 mph acceleration figures. The Audi is published at 0-100 kph as 7.1 seconds. The Infiniti publishes their numbers in mph. It still seems, though that the Infiniti will be ~ 1/2 second quicker.
It is a bone of contention -- once again, I ask Audi marketing "what were you thinking bringing a $50K car to the market that couldn't be 0-60mph at 6.9 seconds?"
To repeat, full reports will follow.
I do owe thanks to this board and the edmunds people for essentially sponsoring a great and powerful tool for commerce, truth, justice and the American way (was that over the top?)
The Audi, as I recall, weighs a bit more. The Audi, probably due to its transmission and final drive ratio (and one would hope FSI engine) "ought to" get a couple miles per gallon more.
The performance is reasonably close -- but like the post above said, Audi's ~ $50K 2.7T S-Line had 265HP and about 280 lb feet of torque at a sub 2,000 RPM engine speed. It was able to sprint in the low 6's to 100kph (~62mph).
Audi replaces, at the price point, the 2004 A6 2.7T with the 2005 A6 3.2 -- and drops over 1/2 second in quickness in a field of cars where sub 7.0 times are considered "standard, normal expectations."
I've (we've) hammered this to death -- if ever I see one of you folks in your "insert LPS car name/brand here," I seriously doubt we'll have a drag race.
It will just remain a small bone of contention -- I would hope the upcoming A6's will come to market a hair (or hare) quicker.
While I'm in wish mode, I would also wish for a better weight balance and while I'm spending Audi's engineering money, would also hope that they will bias slightly the torque to the rear (just to shut the writers at C&D and R&T, etc up). The fact that the quatttro is nominally 50 50 bias (but can shift torque when needed F or R) is a much smaller nit than the 0-60 times (speaking only for myself, that is.)
The Volvo and Acura AWD systems, so I have read are 95% FWD and 5% RWD but can apportion torque appropriately and instantly as circumstances call for. Yet, the car magazines do have a point about the RWD bias offered by BMW and Mercedes (and Infiniti) to name a few. So, Audi -- next gen quattro, how about a 40 60 split and better weight balance? Thanks, Hans!
And, "no" I do not think leaving the shift in "S" will make it quicker than simply flooring it from a full stop. My impressions are that S mode simply tends to eliminate/reduce tip lag since each gear is held longer before upshift, keeping the revs (hence the torque) at full boil.
I have owned a BMW in the past ('89 525 full Hartge package). And was always well taken care of at Long Beach BMW, CA.
I recently helped a friend buy a CPO, '03 Z4 3.0 (600 miles) from Herb Chambers BMW, Boston, MA. When it was taken into Inskip BMW, RI for warranty repairs, she was told that "free" loaners are only provided if, a) you purchase the car from them, and
Based on my experience at Long Beach BMW vs. Inskip, I called BMW USA to confirm their acceptance of the Inskip policy and was told that the availability of loaners, free or otherwise, is at the discretion of the dealers!
I suppose the irony of this "free" loaner policy is lost on the folks that run Inskip BMW but make sure you ask what the service policy is at the dealership you purchase from. Even the free BMW service isn't free if you have to pay for the loaner.
I would "skip" Inskip if shopping for a BMW in RI/MA/CT.
FYI: Part A is the same policy at Tulley BMW in Nashua NH (free loaner only if you buy the car there). I don't know about Part B (having to buy the premium service package), but I'll ask. I took out a 525i a few hours ago, and I think I'm going to move up to a 530i. During the next test drive, I'll bring it up.
Thanks for the info!
The Lexus sure spoiled me...free Lexus loaners.
The Audi store has "X" number of Audis and if you get there at the right time you will get an Audi. Otherwise you get an Enterprise car, but it is usually a "mid size" not the cheapie you mentioned. Indeed, the Enterprise loaner I got once or twice was a Volvo S40!
I don't know how many loaners you would have to have to always always always get THE loaner of THE brand -- perhpas Lexus has it down to a science that Audi does not.
Thus far we've always gotten an X3 when my wife's X3 is in for service -- I don't know if we're just lucky or if all their loaners are X3's -- somehow I doubt it, though.
Audi, once or twice let me take an S4 home for the overnight when my allroad was in for service. My wife has been given a TT previously when her TT was in for service too -- usually though it is just a "nice" A4 quattro with the 4 cylinder du jour. Lots of A4 1.8T's as loaners these days.
At this price level, I would expect a loaner, not necessarily one of the same mark, though it would be preferred. VW use to give me a loaner when in for warranty work. My GTI would get swapped for Passats or jettas.
Cheers.
I agree that these cars are less than one would expect at this price level, but when the alternative is walking home, who am I to complain?
markcincinnati, my Lexus dealer also runs out of Lexi and goes to enterprise, but I have always managed to get there in time for a Lexus. (Except once when I got stuck with a Saturn, and it was hilarious...my son couldn't figure out how to open the nonpower windows!) :P
Looked at Autofair's website, seemed clear and to the point.$550 for freight is not out of line and it does seem that you were satisfied with the so-called Internet/telephone buying experience.
For the record, my Volvo T5 was purchased and serviced at South Bay Volvo in Torrance, CA and provided I called in advance I would always have a free loaner, usually, if available, a higher level vehicle than the one being serviced.
From a strictly marketing point of view, a smart dealer (those that monitor these forums for customer feedback?) as mentioned in other responses, would use the free loaner as an opportunity to get their customers into more expensive vehicles and possibly make a future sale (sell up); The loaner is appreciated, and engenders customer loyalty, a concept that brands boast about all the time, but that (many) dealers don't seem to get or only pay lip service to.
One other observation from a marketing point of view, Enterprise have a pretty effective program going by putting outlets into dealership service bays around the country.
I wonder how much rent and/or kickback the dealers get for giving them a few feet of floor space?
Free scheduled maintainence would be nice, but not having to kill an hour and a half to get to the dealer and back is better.
“The Audi has the 6spd transmission (may have tip lag); the Infiniti has a 5spd (it too may have lag). The Audi has bi-xenons, the Infiniti just on the low-beams.” - Mark 20 June
Ummm – so this would mean you are (willingly) going with the 6 speed Tip – vs. the manual trans. (As you would have gone with a 5 speed “Tip equivalent”? in the M35x.)
Mark - Have you given up on a manual trans. completely? (And yes, I understand that AoA does not currently offer a manual with the 3.2 in the A6.)
And are you reasonably convinced (through test drives, reading, etc.) that the infamous and long discussed “Tip Lag” will not be an issue for you in this A6?
Are you convinced (resigned?) that an occasional “fix” from driving The Lawyer’s BMW w/manual will work for you?
In any case, sincere best wishes with Audi # 2X – and I do hope the driving experience is ‘better than’ the purchase experience . . .
- Ray
Just VERY curious . . .
I fully expect some "tip" lag from the Audi. I also expected it from the Infiniti.
This is different from saying I "like it" or I "want it" -- I do know how to somewhat to mostly mitigate it. I didn't want a BMW 5 series x or non-x. The US transmissions (as would be in the Cadillac STS AWD) might not have "tip" lag -- I would NOT be surprised if they too had the same issue.
An Audi S4 was my more distant third choice: #1 A6, #2 M35X and #3 S4.
My 1997, 1999, 2000 and 2001 Audis all had 5 speed automatics and they all had lag.
It's nice knowing my car will be just over 1/2 the cost of those reviewed here, could appreciate in value instead of depreciate, & will easily walk away from any of them up to well over the ton, where the Malibu's frontal area will minimize it's top speed. I am well aware of the safety & luxury advantages of the newer cars. The cost in taxes, registration & depreciation are also enormous.