Luxury Performance Sedans

hpowders

So how do you like your 2005 545i? I drove one yesterday and thought it was awesome.
What kind of gas mileage are you getting?

lexusguy

"Why do you think MB or BMW would be bad if she wanted NAV?"

Because this woman is a technophobe, and you have to use COMAND or iDrive in order to actually use the Nav systems in BMW or MB cars. You cant tell me that these complex, multi-button systems are easier to use than a Lexus or Acura touch screen.

"In truth, the current ES is reputedly even more of a yawn than the previous generation (1997-2001) & I'd rather not get one."

Have you taken one for a drive? It actually isnt. I've driven both at length (my Lexus dealer uses ES loaner cars). The new one is quite an improvement, especially if you order the Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) option. The '97-'01 car is one of the most boring cars I can ever remember driving. The current one really isnt all that bad. Don't dismiss it without at least giving it a try. It received a freshening for '05 with a bunch of new equipment. The press release for the '05 ES330 can be found here: http://www.lexus.com/about/press_releases/popups/2004/pr_08_06_a.html

sergeym

Overall it is a better car than a 2002 540i Sport I had before. I love engine power, active steering and contrary to the public opinion the I-drive. AS is not perfect but I cannot imagine driving a car w/out it anymore. The same can be said about the I-drive. When the number of choice/buttons exceeds the certain level the direct access does not work anymore. You need some kind of indexed access and that what the I-drive is and I like it very much. Mileage is not as good as I expected. It is about 17mpg (70% city/30% highway) and 26mph on the highway.

hpowders

Sounds like much better mileage than the M45. I've read claims of only 13 and 15 mpg from some M owners.

jimbres

"Have you taken one for a drive? It actually isnt. I've driven both at length (my Lexus dealer uses ES loaner cars). The new one is quite an improvement, especially if you order the Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) option."

Thanks for the tip. As you can probably guess, I haven't driven a newer ES & I'll suggest to my wife that she test-drive one. When it comes to interior amenities, no other car in the entry-level luxury class touches it. (But I'd still rather see her buy the M or the RL.)

hpowders

So tell me, no annoying computer glitches? No iDrive items that refuse to be inputted?

sergeym

Not easy questions to answer. Steptronic transmission does behave strange sometimes but it may be by design. E.g. On the highway as soon as I move the lever to the sport mode the tranny downshifts to a gear that would result in 3,500 RPM (max torque?). When coming to a full stop unless you slow down gradually and smoothly the tranny will hold the starting gear (3rd I think) till 3,500-4,000 RPM when accelerating from the stop. It also downshifts when going downhill and braking. I used to own a 2002 Acura TLS that would downshift on braking so I was not surprised but had to adjust to such behavior by releasing the brake pedal slightly. As to the I-Drive I had no problems setting lighting preferences, speed limit and a couple of other settings. I heard that some "parked car vent settings" do not work but I've never tried to use them. On the move I most of the time talk to the car to bring the screen I need up, e.g. "Vent settings" and then adjust the settings.

bobcatman

The Germans build the best cars for sitting in repair shop and dropping trannies at 30K miles like no one else does. They are yesterdays news, washed up quality wise. INFERIOR to ASIA's best. 2nd rate products priced like Tiffanys. Too bad their getting steam rolled by Japan Inc. like the domestics currently are AGAIN...

The next LS will send them back to the drawing board like the original article did and leave them chasin their tales. COUNT ON IT. :mad:

kdshapiro

Nothing like a great big generalization with a bit of hubris thrown in to intellectually stimulate a discussion. :P

sergeym

You've forgotten about 469bhp E55 and 500bhp M5 not to mention 604bhp S/SL 65 and German horses are bigger.

jjacura

yes every so often we see these little bombs dropped off...and the author runs. Reminds me of my pet dog when she was a puppy. (Bite and Run!)

lexusguy

One of the reasons I like Edmunds is generally there arent too many posts like the above. Places like Autospies for example, its nothing but pointless crap like that.

kdshapiro

Yes agreed. The discussions do run very well, especially given we are all a passionate bunch.

jeff721

The GS fell out for me over price. The AWD was over 50K and there was little movement. Trunk was smaller and rear visibility was not as clear. The deal ($ : Features) on an M35x was simply better that the GS and close but slightly lower in price than the RL. I take delivery of my M35x today and I cannot wait. Drive the RL and the M extensivly. I also keep my are till their used up. MY 95 Saab 9000 is being retired.

To me the RL was a softer side car and the M was a sportier car. Both will serve the purpose of a first rate lux cruser. I thinbk its a matter of taste, dealership experiece and driver expectation. Can't go wrong with either.

pat

The reason there "aren't too many posts like above" around these parts is that folks here generally know when not to feed the trolls.

Hint, hint ...

:confuse:

mexibec

Being looking for a few weeks for a "sport luxury" sedan, I narrowed my choice on the 545i and M45. Other than sport & luxury, reliability was very high on my requirements list. So the Infiniti had an edge (and I was blown away when I test drove it). But having driven BMW for the past 10 years, it was hard to let go BMW. But I went to test drive the 545i (stunning handling as usual), I noticed a transmission glitch, which was diagnosed and fixed by reprogramming the day after. Not to mention that when I tried to use iDrive, the sale rep urged me to "forget about it for now". But that put an end to my search, and I immediately bought an M45. Car is fantastic, all menus are no-nonsense and can be accessed by the knob or a steering wheel button. I browsed them all and within 10-15 minutes, I had set my preferences and I can forget about them. Now, what I use daily (climate, navigation & radio) are all accessible by buttons or voice. IMHO, an excellent implementation of today's car technologies in a well-rounded package.

hpowders

Yeah, but don't you miss the BMW balance and steering? I know I would, having driven them both.

pat

Cars, people ... CARS!

:sick:

lexusguy

Enjoy! IMO, if the M45 cost as much as a 545i, then I would go BMW. (I'm excluding the GS and RL here, I wouldnt really go BMW). But when you combine all of the things the M does better than the 5, and that it gives up very little in at the limit handling, and manages to cost so much less, the choice is obvious.

markcincinnati

You say potato and I say potaato. . .

I call that the value proposition. If the M35X cost as much as the Audi A6 3.2, I would be waiting on my ship to cross the Atlantic rather than the Pacific.

Of course there are American cars that could catch my attention, too, for the right value proposition.

I have learned over the years, that this is deeper than "a price issue" -- but suffice it to say, lexusguy, you hit the nail on the head.

sergeym

That is true if you buy. If you lease the 545 is (was in March) a little bit cheaper. The free maintenance save about $20 month too.

kyfdx

On a Honda it would save $20/mo... On a BMW, it is probably closer to $40-$50/mo....

mexibec

> Yeah, but don't you miss the BMW balance and steering? I know I would, having driven them both.

When I drove the BMW, I immediately felt at home, and yes the car lives up to anyone's expectation in terms of handling (steering, braking, cornering, name it). But neither quality nor ergonomics are there yet (although I appreciate the iDrive initiative, and I believe that it's heading in the right path). Those two were what turned me down. Price was not an issue, piece of mind was. I felt the M45 was a bit below BMW in terms of handling (but only when pushed quite hard), but engine and braking are excellent. M45's ergonomics may not please everyone, but no one will despise them. And the M45's rear view camera (especially with the guide lines) is outstanding. Taking into account all the factors that define "driving", the M45 is a superior package for me.

sergeym

I meant that BMW is about $20/month cheaper to maintain than Infiniti. I do not remember exact numbers I used but M would need 4 oil changes a year, 15K and 30K services and possibly new brakes before the lease end (45K miles). BMW needs nothing but I usually add 1 unscheduled oil change a year. I remember that w/out the brake job for Infiniti it ended up being $20 month less for the BMW.

kyfdx

Yeah.. I guess if the BMW is "free", then the comparison should be with the Infiniti's costs, not the BMW's...

I'd still think the spread was bigger... I spend almost $25/mo. on Hondas...

(I do that extra oil change on the BMW, also... just can't make myself wait 15K)

hpowders

For me the driving experience is everything. The radio, bluetooth, backup camera, the interior, the exterior-all irrelevant to me.
I am willing to put up with some occasional glitches and frustrations because I know every time I drive a 3 or 5 series, I smile.

lexusguy

So if BMW made a bright yellow banana car, with milk crates for seats, but it was the best handling BMW ever, would you still buy?

hpowders

Yes. As long as they were the sport milk crate seats with side bolsters. What's wrong with banana yellow? I saw an Audi S4 in banana yellow and thought it looked quite cool.
Come on man, get with the program! :lemon:

lexusguy

You said the exterior was irrelevant, so I meant a car literally shaped like a banana.

hpowders

If it was shaped like a banana, I would have to order the limited slip differential!

bondguy1

You are showing either your stupidity or your ignorance. Yes, the M45 is a super car and the Lexus LS is a fine automobile. For a car that has been around for so many years, how come the Lexus doesn't win awards every year?
It's styling is boring and looks like every other "big" Japanese sedan on the road. In fact, it looks like they tried copying the Mercedes S Class. Yes, they are coming out with a new LS ( I think the 600). Saw a picture of it on Autospies. But, Mercedes is coming out with a totally new S class next year too. To generalize and say that all Japanese cars are better than German cars and all German cars break down and their trannies go bad at 30,000 miles is shallow minded. I don't care how quick the M45 is or how much gadgetry you put in that Infiniti. When my money's on the line, even for the difference, I'll take the 545 or M5 from BMW every time. I know the BMW will drive like it was brand new 5 years from now while your Japanese car will either be outdated by one or two style changes or driving like a five year old car.
Also, if Japanese cars are such good quality, why don't they include maintenance like BMW and Audi do? Even for routine items like brake jobs and regularly scheduled maintenance, not just for problems.
I have owned both over the years and there is a really big difference between isolating yourself from the road like the Lexus sedans do and feeling like you're in full control driving a car that lets you "feel" the road. By the way, there are a lot of 5-10 year old European cars on the road. How many 10 year old Infiniti's do you see on the road?
German cars are engineered to be driven...like on the Autobahn...fast...probably not too many "japanese" cars in Germany. The only great sports sedan to come from Japan right now is the M35 and M45. The Lexus GS is a joke...underpowered and even the new Toyota Avalon has 280HP engine...too bad Lexus didn't put that engine in the GS...maybe that would've helped sell more GS cars. Its funny how all of a sudden Japan comes up with one great car (Infiniti) and all Japanese cars are better than German cars. I don't think so!!!

hpowders

I must say the GS is a total failure in the performance category. I drove the GS430 4 times and I tried so hard to like it. But its flabby, gimmicky steering, ridiculously thin and slippery steering wheel and incredibly touchy brakes are not even close to what a sports sedan should be.
If this is what Japan thinks is a 5 series threat, they are sadly mistaken.
I think I can sum it up this way-when I got behind the wheel of the GS430, I felt OLD!
The exact opposite of how I feel driving a 545i.
What's the use of extreme reliability in a sterile environment?

markcincinnati

In a less acrimonious way, I said the same thing and somehow started a slew of postings that went awry and were all deleted. This is exactly what we all were saying about CARS!

One final point, virtually none of the LPS cars could be called anything less than very good -- despite our passions and biases.

At least that is what I have been able to determine by reading these posts and testing these cars personally (not to forget reading too much about them!)

Hopefully your post will not be deleted, for it is this kind of passion that makes this forum both civil and engaging (mostly).

bondguy1

Thanks~

lexusguy

Japan doesnt have a GS430, so the Japanese market got the GS350 from day one. We will get it to, as soon as the GS460 hits. For the record, even the 245hp GS300 is not any slower than the A6 3.2, and while I agree that the GS300 especially in AWD form, could use some more power, sales arent a problem. The GS is outselling the RL and A6 by more than 2 to 1, and it outsells the M by a large margin.

hpowders, despite all of Clements rhetoric about the GS and how awesome its performance was going to be, I pretty much expected what Lexus actually delivered. I didnt expect the bad packaging, but a 5 killer from Lexus? No. Japan's 5 killer is the M. The RL is an interesting experiment, but it too suffers from bad packaging (among many other things). At least they have the excuse of having to stretch the Accord platform into a mid size luxury car though. What is Lexus' excuse? The GS430 actually competes with the E500, not the 5.

The IS350 is the car to watch from Lexus. The GS unfortunately remains the akward car between the ES and LS.

Oh, as for the free scheduled maintainence issue, I think Lexus figures its the only way for their dealers to make any money at all. The Germans can count on big bucks for out of warranty cars. You dont take an old S420 to Jiffy Lube. Lexus cant.

cdnpinhead

While bobcatman (pick one) put something on the board meant to get a rise out of people, the "stupidity or ignorance" thing isn't especially likely to raise the bar.

As to why "free" maintenance is now being included, my put is that most of the people who drive cars in this price range lease them. There is absolutely no incentive to ever change the oil, or perform any other sort of scheduled maintenance that actually costs something. Drive it for 24/36/39 months, turn it in, and let the poor sap who gets it next deal with the total lack of maintenance.

Oh boy.

As to the rest of your discussion, let's reconvene in ten years. I should be on my next car by then.

hpowders

I agree that the M45 is a much more entertaining car to drive than the GS430.
Lexus shouldn't have made claims about the GS that they couldn't back up. This car is a major disappointment destined to be relegated to obscurity as the previous GS. It has no niche to fill. You want luxury, there's the LS. You want sport. There are other much better choices. There is no rational reason for the existence of the GS.

cstiles

There is no rational reason for the existence of the GS.

Quite a strong statement. Somewhat akin to "your kid is so ugly he should have never been born..."

A fair number of people are buying/leasing the GS, so it must be appealing to some sort of market. Perhaps people don't necessarily buy cars for "rational" reasons?

lexusguy

The '93 GS300 and the '98 GS300\400 were also hot cars when they launched. Two years later, not so much. Lexus thinks "3rd time's the charm" and will be launching several upgrades into the GS's life to keep it fresh this time. Wether its going to work, I dont know.

I think there is a point to the GS, especially now that the LS is moving into S600\760Li territory. What Lexus needed to do though, is deliver more than they did. Heck, just an off switch for VDIM would've made me like the car a lot more.

ksccts

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

mexibec

I don't think it boils down to studity or ignorance, but rather to a set of personal values. I do value top handling (that what brought to BMW in the first place 10 yrs ago), but even more so reliability, because IMHO cars are getting sophisticated enough that if you experience a problem which a diagnotic shows no fault for it, you'll have to learn to deal with it. That is especially true for German-engineered cars where limits are tested. Case in point: iDrive. I'm a firm believer in that kind of technology, but it's not there yet. We wouldn't be writing about it if it was. If I pay $50k+ for a car, I certainly do not want to cope with reliability/usability issues. Styling-wise, it's very much personal. But I must say that the notion that "it'll grow on you" is nonsense (this is the best BMW sale reps have come up with when I mention that the 5 styling is not the most pleasant to my eyes). I like the design or a car or I don't. That's my money, that's my choice. I want a reliable car, and market studies are there to show that German cars are missing the mark at this point. Free maintenance? A very well-thought markerting idea (which MB dropped btw because of costly reasons). The maintenance on both BMW and Infiniti are essentially oil changes, cabin filter replacement and check ups. No major cost either way. The Infiniti being about $8k cheaper than the BMW, a few $35 oil changes don't matter to me (and I change oil every 3k mi.) Price-wise, these cars being priced above $50k (base) and up, a $20 monthly difference is not relevant to me either. In terms of autobahn, there's none in SoCal. The Lexus GS430? A *fantastic* car, only designed and marketed for the usual Lexus driver, which is more concerned with reliability, brand name & comfort, than turning corners at 50 mph without body roll. Not my taste, but nonetheless a truly great car. But all in all, Infiniti has come up with a Sport Luxury sedan good enough that the difference between the best German cars and some top Japanese cars is getting thinner and thinner. To my very own surprise too, but not a bad one...

lexusguy

"The Lexus GS430? A *fantastic* car, only designed and marketed for the usual Lexus driver, which is more concerned with reliability, brand name & comfort, than turning corners at 50 mph without body roll. Not my taste, but nonetheless a truly great car."

Thats what the Lexus faithful like myself were hoping Lexus wouldn't repeat yet again for 2006. The GS has been that car since '93, and the market has proven that they dont really want the "Lexus" of sports sedans, if a Lexus by definition is not sporty. So what is Lexus to do? They can either exit the segment that traditionally they shouldnt be in, or they can make cars that are real shocks to the system and prove that Lexus CAN build a sports sedan that is more than swoopy styling. They got the IS300 half right. Unfortunately what they got right with the IS300 is exactly what they got wrong with the new GS. I'm hoping that they finally figure out how to combine the two with the IS350. We'll see.

I agree 100% about the Infiniti M, its definitely the most "German" sedan ever to come out of Japan. I am eagerly awaiting the next G and FX models, I think Infiniti is really going to shake things up with these cars.

bondguy1

Lexus screwed up IMO when they stopped making the SC series coupe hardtop a few years ago. The SC 300's and 400's were a reasonably priced sports coupe. When they went to the new hardtop convertible, they outpriced a lot of people into going with a different brand (perhaps a BMW 3 coupe). They should come out with another hard top non convertible coupe to compete in the lower price range.
To me, the new Lexus GS looks a lot like the current Nissan Maxima. As for Lexusguy, I would have to disagree with you in a big way about the current GS outselling the Infiniti M in a big way. If you have stats on this, please post. I'd like to see that. I don't own a Lexus now nor do I own an Infiniti. But, anybody who buys a GS over a Infiniti M should have their head examined.
I think the people who are going to buy the new Lexus GS are probably previous Lexus lessee's or owners who haven't taken the time to see what other cars are available in the marketplace. I personally just leased the new A6. I love the confidence it inspires as it has a heavy and solid feel to it from the sound of the doors slamming to the AWD Quattro provides in foul weather. I think it's a great looking car and now looks much more like the A8. IMO, the Acura RL has absolutely NO style to its exterior...but even the last two bodystyles of the RL have done absolutely nothing for me lookswise. I think that Acura's bread and butter car is probably the TL. They sold so many of the previous style and lease prices were very reasonably. In the 45 to 50K price range, I think the only two contenders are the Infiniti M and the Audi A6...If youre looking for the speed demon in those two, go for the Infiniti. If youre buying one of those two, go with the Infiniti (reliability). If you want a more unique car that is a little different, go with the Audi. I lease my cars so reliability isn't a factor for me. I have had Audi's before and had nothing but good experiences with them. Other people I know curse their Audi's. As far as included maintenance, somebody said nobody does it until they turn the car in for lease end. I don't know who would do that if it's all included. I always service car at dealership. I think just the opposite. They include it so people will actually do the service.

hpowders

Thamk you. Every once in a while it all comes together! :lemon:

kdshapiro

Very good points. I value handling/performance, reliability, styling,functionality in one package. Unfortunately it seems they are mutually exclusive goals.

1. Handling/performance - Europeans lead but the Americans and Japanese are learning.
2 Reliabilty - it's all a crap shoot and most cars are reliable. I know people who have had issues with the most reliable nameplate and no issues with "less" reliable nameplates. The Germans have better fit/finish and quality.
3. Styling - Germans have the edge. Better functional interiors.
4. Functionality - All cars

One more item: hp/$. Americans lead, Europe trails.

Now what will my next car be?

hpowders

Sounds like the 2005 545i.

ksccts

Well said! :shades:

maxhonda99

"Lexus shouldn't have made claims about the GS that they couldn't back up. This car is a major disappointment destined to be relegated to obscurity as the previous GS. It has no niche to fill. You want luxury, there's the LS. You want sport. There are other much better choices. There is no rational reason for the existence of the GS."

Yet you even bothered getting lease figures, etc., and even came 99% of the way to buying one? Almost buying a car you hate soo much! Who woulda figured that!

newaudilover

I think we should all quit our day jobs and go to work for (or better yet purchase) a multinational car dealership so we can rotate the types of cars we bring home every night. That way we get the best of all of these models depending on the driving mood we are in that day and there would be no concerns about if we have chosen the right car knowing the next day we can exchange it for a different model, color, or one with different options. What a nice dream.

hpowders

I tried to get myself to like it but I couldn't. I came to my conclusion after 4 test drives. That is how much I tried to force myself to like this vehicle. But, unfortunately, those things you quote me on happen to be true. It's not a driver's car. I tried to make it one but I couldn't.
One good thing about the GS. It has great lumbar support. So all you folks who couldn't give a darn about driving and have bad backs, do I have a car for you! :lemon: