Aside from whatever deficiencies the RL may have from an engineering or sporting perspective, I think it was also hurt by the immediate launch of the M and new GS. All three hit the scene within a few months of one another.
Another death blow is the Avalon. If you want something in this size class, it is a lot of car for the money. Not a BMW killer in handling, but neither is the RL.
Put an Avalon touring (or whatever the sporty model is) next to an RL, and it's hard to justify the extra 15K on the sticker.
Good point about the Avalon, Stickguy. In fact, I even remembered seeing the Avalons at the Philly auto show, and being really impressed. Almost tempted, actually, until you brought me back to reality by asking me if I'd really want one when I could get the Charger for the same or even less! :shades:
The current Avalon has also taken off, sales-wise, compared to the '00-04. And those sales have most likely come at the expense of something else. And it doesn't look like they're coming from the Camry!
The current Avalon has also taken off, sales-wise, compared to the '00-04. And those sales have most likely come at the expense of something else. And it doesn't look like they're coming from the Camry!
Just shoot me if I ever stray that far into BuickLand. It would truly be a justified mercy killing.
Seriously, the fact that the Japanese as a whole can't seem to put up anything to compete with a BMW 5-series at the $45k+ level for the serious enthusiast's dollars doesn't mean I'm going to have a lobotomy or worse and take the best they have. I'll take a 530i 6-speed at the lower end or the 550i 6-speed at the upper end.
"Seriously, the fact that the Japanese as a whole can't seem to put up anything to compete with a BMW 5-series at the $45k+ level for the serious enthusiast's dollars doesn't mean I'm going to have a lobotomy or worse and take the best they have. I'll take a 530i 6-speed at the lower end or the 550i 6-speed at the upper end."
Not that it applies to your personal situation, but I don't think Honda ever intended to compete with the 5 series in terms of providing the qualities a driving enthusiast is after. Acura was trying to squeeze into the segment using technology. Infiniti is probably the only one of the three which was serious about approaching the market from a perspective that sporty.
You may be right, but the old Legend GS 6-speed was probably closer to 5-series competition (of it's day) than anything by the current crop of $45-$60k+ Japanese offerings. Had that car been RWD, it would truly have been a "Legend".
Personally, I think this market segment could use a little more competition. There are precious few alternatives to a 5 series for someone like me who likes to drive and hasn't lost the use of their left foot. Virtually everbody else - Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Jaguar, Volvo, etc. - puts out very nice comfortable luxury sedans, some with more than ample horsepower, but few that can really compete with the driving dynamics of a 5-series (and none with a manual transmission).
If I were in the market for that kind of car (which I'm not), the RL would be my first and only choice. It's a great luxury touring car with AWD. It's not a sports car, and was never intended to be one. It's merely the most luxurious and comfortable sedan Honda/Acura has ever made.
I despise the exterior but at least it has the proper amount of heardroom for a 50K car. The front of it looks like a late 90's Pontiac.
On the original M45 it looks Nissan hired the 1980's design team from Oldsmobile. I thought it looked like an old Oldsmobile when the original M45 popped up in the market. In one of the car mags they said the original M45 handled like an old Cadillac.
I have to respectfully disagree on the "intent" of the RL. No sedan is a "sports car" - not even the 500 hp V10 M5. But Acura went a very long way in their marketing and advertising to position the RL as the Acura answer to the BMW 5-series in the "sport sedan" segment. Every print and video advertisment prominantly features "300 horsepower" (which they now have to admit was an overstatement), and "super handling". The ads are eerily similar to the 5-series ads in showing the car carving up winding roads. Unfortunately, the reality doesn't quite match the image.
The RL might indeed be a very nice alternative to the Avalon for someone like you. But it is clearly not a performance oriented, fun to drive alternative to the 5-series for soemone like me. Whether or not the car is ultimately successful in sales and profitablity is to be determined. But I think it is safe to say that the RL missed Acura's own intended target market - at least if you read/watch their advertisements.
I saw most often for the RL - ran for ages and ages - was the one where the driver uses the real-time traffic update system to avoid the crowded freeway and drive on the parallel road instead.
It is a mistake to try to sell a car on the gizmos, IMO. Gizmos are great, but people care about performance, safety, durability, and price more. All that talk of the fabulous DVD-based audio system in the RL (I saw claims that was an industry first - not sure if that is correct) hasn't helped much to sell cars, it seems.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon, I remember that ad, but if it's any consolation to Acura, I looked at it a different way. I thought the driver was trying to find the back road not because he wanted to avoid the crowded freeway necessarily, but because he wanted to find some back roads and really have some fun with his car!
In my case at least, I looked at it as trying to push the handling/performance characteristics of the car, and not all the fancy doo-dads.
Acura and Lexus have a bad habit of saying "we're building a BMW beater!" and then actually building a competitor to the E-class or A6. I have a lot of respect for say... the Citroen C6, a luxury car that doesn't claim to have any sport in it, yet it's modern and scary to old people.
I fell for the SH-AWD hype. It made me think of Honda's SH Preludes, and of Nissan's ATTESA-ETS all wheel drive system... true performance monsters. Maybe one day it will be, but if you market it for safety nobody's going to care if it's SH-AWD or on-demand AWD.
That's a tough thing to do. Right now you can get real-time traffice updates for any number of portable NAV systems that cost under a grand. So that steals some of the thunder from the RL.
It's like the Passat ad with the hidden umbrella, few people cared. Have you seen the subsidized lease deals? $299 a month now?
Very tough to market one feature like that.
Timing was bad, agree about that. RL came out and looked spectacular, then the GS and M came out shortly thereafter and remain in short supply to this day.
For someone like me? I''m picking up a new 5-speed WRX Limited wagon in a few days. I do know and appreciate sports sedans/wagons.
I still stand by my statement. I see the RL positioned against E350 4-Matics, 5-Series AWD models, or A-6 Quattros. I'd pick the RL in a NY minute over any of those cars. In that type of vehicle I'm looking for comfort, convenience and reliability; not carving up corners.
except for the a-6 the rest are niche vehicles. the a-6 has a very established identity. the rl needs to do better than the others to get into the game.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Even the Camry has an ad where the car is shown churning wheels and sliding 180 to a stop.
I do think that Acura missed the mark with the RL, but I don't think it's the performance that's hurting it. The RL is short on style and interior space. The performance would be fine if they'd fixed those issues and hadn't hit the market at the same moment as two strong competitors.
Again, I'm not disputing that the RL would be the right car for you, if you were comparing it to the cars listed. But remember, with the exception of the low volume A6, the others (E350 4-matic, 530ix) are even lower volume niche models geared mostly towards snow belt buyers looking for an all season (non-sport) sedan.
What the RL completely fails to do IMO is give someone like me a reason to consider it over a 550i 6-speed or even a 530i sport. And, while I am sure Acura would be grateful to have your loyalty, I suspect they had counted on a few buyers in my segment as well.
Put it in another perspective. The FWD TL 6-speed is not fully capable of matching the handling and performance of the RWD 330i. But it is close enough - and offers other amenities, more room and the "comfort, convenience and reliability" you describe - such that Acura won me over with the TL. The fact that they (finally) made a 6-speed version with an upgraded suspension and Brembo brakes was absolutely critical to capturing me. And it paid off with the halo effect that at least 3-4 of our friends have bought automatic TL's after hearing my positive reviews.
But the RL is just too far short of the driving dynamics of a BMW 5 series for me. You may be happy with an Acura badge on the equivalent of a Buick Avalon. For my $50k+, I'd actually like something that is at least as fun to drive as my $33k TL. When I had an RL as a loaner several months ago, I looked forward to getting back my TL 6-speed. That's not a good sign for Acura, no matter how you spin it.
We could continue our debate - but let's just see how the RL does in the marketplace in it's current form. My belief is that if Acura were to upgrade the performance side of the RL - better suspension & brakes, 350 horsepower V8 (real German style horsepower, not Acura ponies) and offer a "sport" version with a close ratio 6-speed, they would have the ONLY Japanese competitor in the serious sport sedan market that BMW owns. That would probably uplift the RL sales significantly, even for the non-sport versions/buyers. It certainly has worked for the new TL.
What the RL completely fails to do IMO is give someone like me a reason to consider it over a 550i 6-speed or even a 530i sport. Realize that Acura hasn't marketed RL with the sport package. So, I'm not sure how it could have failed. There is one trim and one price (okay, two, if you throw in the new technology package). Sport package? Isn't there.
Acura clearly has not tapped into "sport" arena with the RL. No harm in it. Perhaps that should be left with TL, throw in SH-AWD, sport suspension and its got the 6-speed. To me, the TL is far more comparable to the old Legend.
What the RL completely fails to do IMO is give someone like me a reason to consider it over a 550i 6-speed or even a 530i sport.
Unlike the Euro-brands you mentioned, it won't nickel-and-dime you death once it's out of warranty—which is something most of their customers are concerned about. However, as you say, with your "sporting desires," the RL is not for you.
I think Acuras are for people with minor sporting pretensions - and I mean that in a good way.
The TSX is a nice alternative to a 3-series, but it is clearly no 3-series. Same with the TL.
The RL is a nice alternative to the 5-series for someone who wants a little sport with their sedan.
Frankly, when I drove my wife's 3-series on weekends I was often thinking, this sure is boring to drive next to my 300ZX. Now that she has a minivan, I feel like I am in a sports car in my G35. But I know I am not. And I know I would rather be driving a 911 or an S2000 or various other cars that won't comfortably and safely hold me and my young ones.
It is all relative, and if you need a reliable all weather sports sedan, the RL is a great choice for a lot of people.
"And I know I would rather be driving a 911 or an S2000 or various other cars that won't comfortably and safely hold me and my young ones."
For the record, since September 15, I've put 3,800 miles on our 911 with a substantial number of those miles with 1,2, or all three other family members "safely" buckled in. Over the same period, the TL has only had about 800 miles added to its odometer. I'm sure that will change with the weather. The old S2000 was a different story.
"It is all relative, and if you need a reliable all weather sports sedan, the RL is a great choice for a lot of people."
I would probably agree, although I think the use of the term "sports" is a bit liberal. The question I raised was whether that was Acura's intended target market. Every advance review of the RL that I read went to great lengths to describe the RL's "SUPER HANDLING" AWD system. Well, frankly, it isn't that super. And if you look at the summer rubber that Acura puts on the wheels of the RL, it isn't the first choice for an all weather car either.
The fact that we are all debating the intent of the RL probably means that Acura didn't do a particularly good job of matching their advertising and marketing with the product itself. Or else I just read too much into their advertising and thought they really did want to position the RL as a true sport sedan. Which is entirely possible, given that I have been guilty of reading too much into things on other occassions.
Every advance review of the RL that I read went to great lengths to describe the RL's "SUPER HANDLING" AWD system. Well, frankly, it isn't that super.
Edmunds Full Test (not an "advance review") on SH-AWD...
"We flogged the RL on both wet and dry roads, and found the car's handling unaffected by standing water even at high speeds. Most full-size sedans will slide when pitched around a wet curve, but the RL held its line without a hint of traction loss. Handling was completely neutral, and the tires didn't howl or complain even once."
Try to look at things the way they are meant to be.
Ditto. The weight and suspension are the culprits, not the AWD system. And the name is lame.
As for the advance material, what else would they do? They've created a highly advanced AWD system. It's essentially a new toy for the automobile market. Are you suggesting they NOT sell it like it's a big performance booster?
Of course, Acura is starting to offer performance tires and suspension upgrades in the form of their A-Spec packages. But they've done a lousy job of marketing those and, because they're dealer installed by request, people taking test drives don't get to try them out.
I wish I could work that out. I wonder if you can properly put a car seat in the back of a 911. Have you done it?
I had two car seats in the back of an RX-8, but I got tired of the little ones kicking the back of the seats and complaining that they were sitting in a hole and couldn't see anything. My oldest girl, 5, said she hated the car and there was nothing cooler than her mom's minivan. How can you respond to that? I was lucky to get away with a 4-door sedan as a compromise.
When I was little I thought nothing was cooler than my friend’s VW Camper Van. It was like being on a ship, galley and all! Sure, I liked the way Lamborghinis looked, but going on field trips was when we kids would decide what we liked to be in. And minivans were the best for field trips, by far. Spending time in them was fun.
Oh and at the SF Auto Show, I couldn’t help but squeeze into the back of a 911. I’m 5’ 7”, 145lbs. Technically, I fit! My legs were sorta wrapped around the passenger seat, and I had to duck my head, but I was more comfortable than when I tried the Mustang out (couldn’t squeeze my legs between the back and front seats in that one).
==
And to respond to other posts, I agree SH-AWD was misnamed. The Prelude gave rise to the "Super Handling" (SH) moniker and that's what got my expectations all high... they've also sullied the SH badge now. They have time to redeem themselves though, since the RL hardly gets mentioned.
I agree too. If Acura is to be faulted in any way, it's because they didn't also offer a RL-S, with a firmed up suspension, and a 6-speed manual option.
Just offering one version of the RL, with a soft suspension, has left the door open for all the critics to walk in. Again... it's Acura's decision to "tune" the suspension for a soft ride that's the culprit, not the SH-AWD (again, dumb name).
The dealer-built A-spec versions don't cut it IMO. It should have been a factory trim level, not a dealer option.
and brought one home overnight to see if we liked it. It was a nice car. The NAV system is awesome. The engine was smooth and the interior definitely had a high quality feel to it. On the downside, it didn't feel significantly different than our 04 EX-L Accord. Not a bad thing all together because I do consider this generation of Accords one of the best yet in terms of mechanicals and driving feel. However, I expected more out of a $50,000 car. If Acura eventually goes the route of Phaeton and offers substantial rebates we will consider it again. Until then we are quite happy driving our other vehicles.
"I wish I could work that out. I wonder if you can properly put a car seat in the back of a 911. Have you done it?"
I haven't tried a car seat. My daughters are 7 & 10. The nice thing about the rear seats of the 911 is that they are contoured to hold them almost like a car seat and the shoulder / lap belt is well positioned. They also sit well inboard of the doors/sides.
As far as "sitting in a hole", that all goes away with the top down. I am sure a 911 Coupe would get far worse reviews. Your 5 year old may still be salvageable from mini-van hell, however. When my youngest was 4 and we had an S2000, I'd occasionally take her on quiet side streets to school in the passenger seat (8 mph max). She quickly mastered the 1-2 and 2-1 shift, with me working the clutch. When we bought an MDX (our first automatic) she gave the dealer grief when he tried to explain that you couldn't get one with a 6-speed. Somehow I don't see a mini-van in her future.
Try to look at things the way they are meant to be.
Believe me, I'm trying. I sincerely thought by Acura's own marketing of the RL and the carefully written advance press releases, that the RL would be a performance oriented luxury sports sedan. As opposed to just an all-weather luxury sedan.
As for why I don't consider the RL's AWD system "Super", it has less to do with it's wet weather advantages and more to do with what it costs the car on dry pavement. The RL weighs 4,000 lbs, about 200 lbs more than the V8 545i 6-speed and as much as a former M5. And a massive 500+ lbs more than the nimbler, quicker, nearly as large and luxurious TL 6-speed. That extra weight stresses the limits of the already soft suspension. And even more severely stresses the 300hp (oops, 290 hp) V6.
Given that I have purchased two Acura's in the last 18 months, I think I qualify as a loyal customer. But, in order for me to remain loyal, the RL has to do better than (as someone else suggested) a $50,000 version of a Honda Accord in terms of its overall driving dynamics. Great rain handling and techno gizmos out the wazoo are not enough for me.
I am perpetuating this discussion in part because I think Acura has the best chance of all of the Japanese manufacturers of putting up a car that can take on the 5-series. I had no reservation about buying a Honda S2000 over a Porsche Boxster in 2002. And, although some might give Infiniti the edge on performance orientation, they just don't have their engineering or aesthetic act together, IMO. You couldn't have given me a 3,500 lb. 350Z back when I was debating between the S2000 and Boxster. And their new M45 still looks like it could have been produced by Cadillac. So I sincerely hope that Acura reaches a bit higher with a serious "performance oriented sports sedan". We already have an MDX for the rain and snow.
I like the 350Z, but it is so heavy. Of course when you build a two seater and a big V8 SUV on the same platform, concessions will be made.
I get tired of hearing how the 300ZX became so huge and bloated in the final generation. The 300 was on the heavy side, but the 350Z is smaller on the inside and weighs even more than the NA 300ZX. And don't even get me started on how much better the interior was on the 300ZX.
I much prefer a Boxster or an S2000 for driving pleasure, but I like coupes (and preferably 2+2 seating).
HONDA NEEDS TO GET SOME RWD PERFORMANCE CARS GOING!
:-P
I would agree Honda is the best suited of the first-tier Japanese to take on BMW and the like, but they won't do it with FWD cars.
And if the future is to be AWD at Honda, that is a poor second. AWD should be an option on otherwise RWD cars.
I used to buy the standard line that Honda is a smaller company than Toy/Nis and can't afford all the R&D to turn its cars back into rear drivers, or develop a special rear-drive platform for Acura, but I dunno: they did it for the S2000, a car selling in such tiny numbers it is ludicrous that they don't exploit the chassis for other vehicles.
A RWD TL 6-speed, with say a 20-30 hp bump, and selling at $37K equipped the way it is today, would just eat all its competition alive. Find a V-8 to stuff in the same-size RL along with the 6-speed, and the RL would do the same to ITS competition.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
seems to me that RWD wold be a piece of cake if they can do AWD on the platform. How hard would it be to take out the front half shafts? Although I guess they should also rotate the engine 90 degrees.
I think Honda's reasoning was always that they put packaging above all else. They don't want to build compromised rear seats like the 3-series has. But then there's the Prelude... FWD, practically a 2-seater, and they came up with all kinds of trickery to make it as good as RWD on a track. Clever stuff, like accelerating the outside in a turn, and four wheel steering... taking the hard way like a proper engineer.
But now that they make larger cars... it's time. The RL loses room anyway, though not as much as if it had a longitudinal engine.
I guess Honda's happy to be more like Audi. Odd, given their racing heritage and the occasional supercar. I guess what they've done with the TL and TSX has been low-investment, high-yield enough to lull them into complacency.
IMO, the biggest advantage to a RWD platform is the fact that you can balance its weight. Without needing to drive the front wheels, they can be shifted forward to achieve a 50/50 balance. You're not going to get that simply by eliminating the front half-shafts.
I think the RL tried to be what many other Hondas are... 2nd best in all categories. Seldom do we see a Honda that is the best in any one particular category. They tend to be a solid blend of all things. It's not sexy, but it works well in the mass market. Trouble is... when you get to the higher rungs of the luxury tier, buyers expect something to brag about.
I think the RL tried to be what many other Hondas are... 2nd best in all categories. Seldom do we see a Honda that is the best in any one particular category. They tend to be a solid blend of all things. It's not sexy, but it works well in the mass market. Trouble is... when you get to the higher rungs of the luxury tier, buyers expect something to brag about.
I think that is a very good assessment of Honda's mainstream strategy. They took a different approach with the S2000, for which they received much critical acclaim, but it wasn't more than a footnote on their income statement.
With respect to the RL however, I think there is a fundamental business reason why they should reconsider repositioning the car. Namely, with all of the competition in the non-sport luxury sedan market, it is exceptionally difficult for the current RL to distinguish itself to capture significant market share and volume. It's not that big of a pie to begin with, and Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, Volvo, Infiniti, lexus, etc. are all competing with "nice" luxury offerings.
I am prepared to concede that as an "enthusiast" seeking a fun-to-drive performance oriented luxury sedan, I'm in the minority compared to the "non-enthusiast" driver who is happy with nice leather and a quiet ride. But for me, there aren't 8 or 10 choices. There is essentially one - a manual transmissioned BMW 5-series.
I think the RL could generate significantly more sales if it upped the ante and became a real contender for the enthusiast driver. There can (and probably should) still be a slushbox equiped standard non-sport model for those ladies (and men) that think a clutch is a small purse to take to the opera. But if Acura could get me in the door to consider a $50-$60k performance oriented luxury sport sedan that had the same relative level of performance engineering and commitment that they made to the $32k Honda S2000, they would have a winner, IMO.
For the most part, hasn't Honda's mantra always been value? Especially w/Acura models, more solid content for the buck. The same definitely applies to the S2K. That is a car that could easily have been priced higher. I still remember dealer gouging on that one.
As Varmint suggested, Honda for the most part has been Jack of all trades, master of none. I have no problem with that. It's generally been a good 'bang for the buck' for most models, with the extra bonus of great reliability (real or perceived).
With respect to the RL, I agree that it would be a good decision to have a sport orientated model and trumpet that through marketing. Make sure to stick to the Honda value principle, even if it's a 'Jack of all trades, master of none.' If nothing else, as you imply, it could get people to the lot. If a few enthusiasts sing it's praise, it would create a 'buzz' (which is NOT happening with the current RL). I would think this would increase the sales of the automatics, and RL sales overall. Buyers in this segment hate to miss the boat.
W/R to exterior styling, which I didn't see any in your post, I've read tons of posts calling it bland. If I had a buck for every time I've heard that of Honda models...
Around here, I've seen 3 RLs, all black (and only two I've noticed w/different drivers), and I must be in the major minority. :confuse: I like the style, as it reminds me of TLs bigger brother. Is that a bad thing?
I've seen white (not so good for the RL) and silver. It's a great silver, somehow. While the silhouette and details are kinda plain, the car has the best stance of any out there. I think the interior is my favorite in its class too, but not by much.
Mugen played around with it and gave it a racing 4.0L V10, RWD manual transmission. Mugen needs to play a larger role with Honda...
I like the RL styling too. Its ONLY weak point is its non-descript rear end treatment. It doesn't stand out as much as it should. The front is quite classy. And like most Hondas, it looks better up close than from a distance (or in pictures).
What Honda does need, if sales volume is a concern, is a lower starting price tag, and aggressive marketing. Relying completly on engineering prowess and assuming people will understand it, doesn't work, especially in a class where badge matters more than anything else around it.
Comments
Put an Avalon touring (or whatever the sporty model is) next to an RL, and it's hard to justify the extra 15K on the sticker.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The current Avalon has also taken off, sales-wise, compared to the '00-04. And those sales have most likely come at the expense of something else. And it doesn't look like they're coming from the Camry!
Think Buick, Infiniti I35, Mistubishi Diamante, Mazda Millenia...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Seriously, the fact that the Japanese as a whole can't seem to put up anything to compete with a BMW 5-series at the $45k+ level for the serious enthusiast's dollars doesn't mean I'm going to have a lobotomy or worse and take the best they have. I'll take a 530i 6-speed at the lower end or the 550i 6-speed at the upper end.
Not that it applies to your personal situation, but I don't think Honda ever intended to compete with the 5 series in terms of providing the qualities a driving enthusiast is after. Acura was trying to squeeze into the segment using technology. Infiniti is probably the only one of the three which was serious about approaching the market from a perspective that sporty.
Personally, I think this market segment could use a little more competition. There are precious few alternatives to a 5 series for someone like me who likes to drive and hasn't lost the use of their left foot. Virtually everbody else - Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Jaguar, Volvo, etc. - puts out very nice comfortable luxury sedans, some with more than ample horsepower, but few that can really compete with the driving dynamics of a 5-series (and none with a manual transmission).
Bob
On the original M45 it looks Nissan hired the 1980's design team from Oldsmobile. I thought it looked like an old Oldsmobile when the original M45 popped up in the market. In one of the car mags they said the original M45 handled like an old Cadillac.
The RL might indeed be a very nice alternative to the Avalon for someone like you. But it is clearly not a performance oriented, fun to drive alternative to the 5-series for soemone like me. Whether or not the car is ultimately successful in sales and profitablity is to be determined. But I think it is safe to say that the RL missed Acura's own intended target market - at least if you read/watch their advertisements.
It is a mistake to try to sell a car on the gizmos, IMO. Gizmos are great, but people care about performance, safety, durability, and price more. All that talk of the fabulous DVD-based audio system in the RL (I saw claims that was an industry first - not sure if that is correct) hasn't helped much to sell cars, it seems.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In my case at least, I looked at it as trying to push the handling/performance characteristics of the car, and not all the fancy doo-dads.
I fell for the SH-AWD hype. It made me think of Honda's SH Preludes, and of Nissan's ATTESA-ETS all wheel drive system... true performance monsters. Maybe one day it will be, but if you market it for safety nobody's going to care if it's SH-AWD or on-demand AWD.
It's like the Passat ad with the hidden umbrella, few people cared. Have you seen the subsidized lease deals? $299 a month now?
Very tough to market one feature like that.
Timing was bad, agree about that. RL came out and looked spectacular, then the GS and M came out shortly thereafter and remain in short supply to this day.
-juice
I still stand by my statement. I see the RL positioned against E350 4-Matics, 5-Series AWD models, or A-6 Quattros. I'd pick the RL in a NY minute over any of those cars. In that type of vehicle I'm looking for comfort, convenience and reliability; not carving up corners.
Bob
They try to be all things to all people and just get too complex.
-juice
I do think that Acura missed the mark with the RL, but I don't think it's the performance that's hurting it. The RL is short on style and interior space. The performance would be fine if they'd fixed those issues and hadn't hit the market at the same moment as two strong competitors.
What the RL completely fails to do IMO is give someone like me a reason to consider it over a 550i 6-speed or even a 530i sport. And, while I am sure Acura would be grateful to have your loyalty, I suspect they had counted on a few buyers in my segment as well.
Put it in another perspective. The FWD TL 6-speed is not fully capable of matching the handling and performance of the RWD 330i. But it is close enough - and offers other amenities, more room and the "comfort, convenience and reliability" you describe - such that Acura won me over with the TL. The fact that they (finally) made a 6-speed version with an upgraded suspension and Brembo brakes was absolutely critical to capturing me. And it paid off with the halo effect that at least 3-4 of our friends have bought automatic TL's after hearing my positive reviews.
But the RL is just too far short of the driving dynamics of a BMW 5 series for me. You may be happy with an Acura badge on the equivalent of a Buick Avalon. For my $50k+, I'd actually like something that is at least as fun to drive as my $33k TL. When I had an RL as a loaner several months ago, I looked forward to getting back my TL 6-speed. That's not a good sign for Acura, no matter how you spin it.
We could continue our debate - but let's just see how the RL does in the marketplace in it's current form. My belief is that if Acura were to upgrade the performance side of the RL - better suspension & brakes, 350 horsepower V8 (real German style horsepower, not Acura ponies) and offer a "sport" version with a close ratio 6-speed, they would have the ONLY Japanese competitor in the serious sport sedan market that BMW owns. That would probably uplift the RL sales significantly, even for the non-sport versions/buyers. It certainly has worked for the new TL.
Realize that Acura hasn't marketed RL with the sport package. So, I'm not sure how it could have failed. There is one trim and one price (okay, two, if you throw in the new technology package). Sport package? Isn't there.
Acura clearly has not tapped into "sport" arena with the RL. No harm in it. Perhaps that should be left with TL, throw in SH-AWD, sport suspension and its got the 6-speed. To me, the TL is far more comparable to the old Legend.
Unlike the Euro-brands you mentioned, it won't nickel-and-dime you death once it's out of warranty—which is something most of their customers are concerned about. However, as you say, with your "sporting desires," the RL is not for you.
Bob
The TSX is a nice alternative to a 3-series, but it is clearly no 3-series. Same with the TL.
The RL is a nice alternative to the 5-series for someone who wants a little sport with their sedan.
Frankly, when I drove my wife's 3-series on weekends I was often thinking, this sure is boring to drive next to my 300ZX. Now that she has a minivan, I feel like I am in a sports car in my G35. But I know I am not. And I know I would rather be driving a 911 or an S2000 or various other cars that won't comfortably and safely hold me and my young ones.
It is all relative, and if you need a reliable all weather sports sedan, the RL is a great choice for a lot of people.
Bob
For the record, since September 15, I've put 3,800 miles on our 911 with a substantial number of those miles with 1,2, or all three other family members "safely" buckled in.
"It is all relative, and if you need a reliable all weather sports sedan, the RL is a great choice for a lot of people."
I would probably agree, although I think the use of the term "sports" is a bit liberal. The question I raised was whether that was Acura's intended target market. Every advance review of the RL that I read went to great lengths to describe the RL's "SUPER HANDLING" AWD system. Well, frankly, it isn't that super. And if you look at the summer rubber that Acura puts on the wheels of the RL, it isn't the first choice for an all weather car either.
The fact that we are all debating the intent of the RL probably means that Acura didn't do a particularly good job of matching their advertising and marketing with the product itself. Or else I just read too much into their advertising and thought they really did want to position the RL as a true sport sedan. Which is entirely possible, given that I have been guilty of reading too much into things on other occassions.
Edmunds Full Test (not an "advance review") on SH-AWD...
"We flogged the RL on both wet and dry roads, and found the car's handling unaffected by standing water even at high speeds. Most full-size sedans will slide when pitched around a wet curve, but the RL held its line without a hint of traction loss. Handling was completely neutral, and the tires didn't howl or complain even once."
Try to look at things the way they are meant to be.
They should have called it Super Traction-AWD, something like that. Or Intelligent-AWD, perhaps.
-juice
As for the advance material, what else would they do? They've created a highly advanced AWD system. It's essentially a new toy for the automobile market. Are you suggesting they NOT sell it like it's a big performance booster?
Of course, Acura is starting to offer performance tires and suspension upgrades in the form of their A-Spec packages. But they've done a lousy job of marketing those and, because they're dealer installed by request, people taking test drives don't get to try them out.
I had two car seats in the back of an RX-8, but I got tired of the little ones kicking the back of the seats and complaining that they were sitting in a hole and couldn't see anything. My oldest girl, 5, said she hated the car and there was nothing cooler than her mom's minivan. How can you respond to that? I was lucky to get away with a 4-door sedan as a compromise.
Hence the rearrangement of CVCC to... Civic.
Oh and at the SF Auto Show, I couldn’t help but squeeze into the back of a 911. I’m 5’ 7”, 145lbs. Technically, I fit! My legs were sorta wrapped around the passenger seat, and I had to duck my head, but I was more comfortable than when I tried the Mustang out (couldn’t squeeze my legs between the back and front seats in that one).
==
And to respond to other posts, I agree SH-AWD was misnamed. The Prelude gave rise to the "Super Handling" (SH) moniker and that's what got my expectations all high... they've also sullied the SH badge now. They have time to redeem themselves though, since the RL hardly gets mentioned.
Just offering one version of the RL, with a soft suspension, has left the door open for all the critics to walk in. Again... it's Acura's decision to "tune" the suspension for a soft ride that's the culprit, not the SH-AWD (again, dumb name).
The dealer-built A-spec versions don't cut it IMO. It should have been a factory trim level, not a dealer option.
Bob
A-Spec and HFP just don't cut it. Maybe they can't do anything like M or AMG, because it'd hurt either Mugen or Spoon?
I don't know what the relationship is between the three, but something better can be done.
I haven't tried a car seat. My daughters are 7 & 10. The nice thing about the rear seats of the 911 is that they are contoured to hold them almost like a car seat and the shoulder / lap belt is well positioned. They also sit well inboard of the doors/sides.
As far as "sitting in a hole", that all goes away with the top down. I am sure a 911 Coupe would get far worse reviews. Your 5 year old may still be salvageable from mini-van hell, however. When my youngest was 4 and we had an S2000, I'd occasionally take her on quiet side streets to school in the passenger seat (8 mph max). She quickly mastered the 1-2 and 2-1 shift, with me working the clutch. When we bought an MDX (our first automatic) she gave the dealer grief when he tried to explain that you couldn't get one with a 6-speed. Somehow I don't see a mini-van in her future.
Believe me, I'm trying.
As for why I don't consider the RL's AWD system "Super", it has less to do with it's wet weather advantages and more to do with what it costs the car on dry pavement. The RL weighs 4,000 lbs, about 200 lbs more than the V8 545i 6-speed and as much as a former M5. And a massive 500+ lbs more than the nimbler, quicker, nearly as large and luxurious TL 6-speed. That extra weight stresses the limits of the already soft suspension. And even more severely stresses the 300hp (oops, 290 hp) V6.
Given that I have purchased two Acura's in the last 18 months, I think I qualify as a loyal customer. But, in order for me to remain loyal, the RL has to do better than (as someone else suggested) a $50,000 version of a Honda Accord in terms of its overall driving dynamics. Great rain handling and techno gizmos out the wazoo are not enough for me.
I am perpetuating this discussion in part because I think Acura has the best chance of all of the Japanese manufacturers of putting up a car that can take on the 5-series. I had no reservation about buying a Honda S2000 over a Porsche Boxster in 2002. And, although some might give Infiniti the edge on performance orientation, they just don't have their engineering or aesthetic act together, IMO. You couldn't have given me a 3,500 lb. 350Z back when I was debating between the S2000 and Boxster. And their new M45 still looks like it could have been produced by Cadillac. So I sincerely hope that Acura reaches a bit higher with a serious "performance oriented sports sedan". We already have an MDX for the rain and snow.
A Type S would, being factory installed it would be perceived as the halo model for the line. It would command more of a premium at resale time.
Why not acquire Mugen (an established name) like Mercedes did with AMG?
-juice
I get tired of hearing how the 300ZX became so huge and bloated in the final generation. The 300 was on the heavy side, but the 350Z is smaller on the inside and weighs even more than the NA 300ZX. And don't even get me started on how much better the interior was on the 300ZX.
I much prefer a Boxster or an S2000 for driving pleasure, but I like coupes (and preferably 2+2 seating).
To me, the A-spec cars look a little JC Whitney with their spoilers and ground effects. I prefer them without.
HONDA NEEDS TO GET SOME RWD PERFORMANCE CARS GOING!
:-P
I would agree Honda is the best suited of the first-tier Japanese to take on BMW and the like, but they won't do it with FWD cars.
And if the future is to be AWD at Honda, that is a poor second. AWD should be an option on otherwise RWD cars.
I used to buy the standard line that Honda is a smaller company than Toy/Nis and can't afford all the R&D to turn its cars back into rear drivers, or develop a special rear-drive platform for Acura, but I dunno: they did it for the S2000, a car selling in such tiny numbers it is ludicrous that they don't exploit the chassis for other vehicles.
A RWD TL 6-speed, with say a 20-30 hp bump, and selling at $37K equipped the way it is today, would just eat all its competition alive. Find a V-8 to stuff in the same-size RL along with the 6-speed, and the RL would do the same to ITS competition.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But now that they make larger cars... it's time. The RL loses room anyway, though not as much as if it had a longitudinal engine.
I guess Honda's happy to be more like Audi. Odd, given their racing heritage and the occasional supercar. I guess what they've done with the TL and TSX has been low-investment, high-yield enough to lull them into complacency.
I think the RL tried to be what many other Hondas are... 2nd best in all categories. Seldom do we see a Honda that is the best in any one particular category. They tend to be a solid blend of all things. It's not sexy, but it works well in the mass market. Trouble is... when you get to the higher rungs of the luxury tier, buyers expect something to brag about.
I think that is a very good assessment of Honda's mainstream strategy. They took a different approach with the S2000, for which they received much critical acclaim, but it wasn't more than a footnote on their income statement.
With respect to the RL however, I think there is a fundamental business reason why they should reconsider repositioning the car. Namely, with all of the competition in the non-sport luxury sedan market, it is exceptionally difficult for the current RL to distinguish itself to capture significant market share and volume. It's not that big of a pie to begin with, and Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, Volvo, Infiniti, lexus, etc. are all competing with "nice" luxury offerings.
I am prepared to concede that as an "enthusiast" seeking a fun-to-drive performance oriented luxury sedan, I'm in the minority compared to the "non-enthusiast" driver who is happy with nice leather and a quiet ride. But for me, there aren't 8 or 10 choices. There is essentially one - a manual transmissioned BMW 5-series.
I think the RL could generate significantly more sales if it upped the ante and became a real contender for the enthusiast driver. There can (and probably should) still be a slushbox equiped standard non-sport model for those ladies (and men) that think a clutch is a small purse to take to the opera. But if Acura could get me in the door to consider a $50-$60k performance oriented luxury sport sedan that had the same relative level of performance engineering and commitment that they made to the $32k Honda S2000, they would have a winner, IMO.
As Varmint suggested, Honda for the most part has been Jack of all trades, master of none. I have no problem with that. It's generally been a good 'bang for the buck' for most models, with the extra bonus of great reliability (real or perceived).
With respect to the RL, I agree that it would be a good decision to have a sport orientated model and trumpet that through marketing. Make sure to stick to the Honda value principle, even if it's a 'Jack of all trades, master of none.' If nothing else, as you imply, it could get people to the lot. If a few enthusiasts sing it's praise, it would create a 'buzz' (which is NOT happening with the current RL). I would think this would increase the sales of the automatics, and RL sales overall. Buyers in this segment hate to miss the boat.
W/R to exterior styling, which I didn't see any in your post, I've read tons of posts calling it bland. If I had a buck for every time I've heard that of Honda models...
Around here, I've seen 3 RLs, all black (and only two I've noticed w/different drivers), and I must be in the major minority. :confuse: I like the style, as it reminds me of TLs bigger brother. Is that a bad thing?
Apologies for the long post.
Mugen played around with it and gave it a racing 4.0L V10, RWD manual transmission. Mugen needs to play a larger role with Honda...
What Honda does need, if sales volume is a concern, is a lower starting price tag, and aggressive marketing. Relying completly on engineering prowess and assuming people will understand it, doesn't work, especially in a class where badge matters more than anything else around it.