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Comments
I would happily buy all of the Ferrari 430's I could get my hands on at $30k over MSRP and immediately make another $45k to flip them. I would agree with you that patience will get you significant discounts for most mass produced cars where the supply can be dialed up to meet demand. But there are some desireable cars in which the demand has exceeded supply for extended periods of time (Honda S2000 form 1999 to 2002+ fell into that category). Given that tradeoff, I think it's better to buy a great car at a fair price than a fair car at a great price. Even though I got a discount, I wouldn't have thought twice about paying full MSRP for my Porsche 911S over taking a Chevy Corvette at $10k below invoice.
"Tell me what you think about my suggestion for TL (the Type-S) above?"
Completely unnecessary. The TL 6-speed already has a stiffer "sport" suspension, Brembo brakes and a very crisp, short throw 6-speed. It is far more sporting in comparison to the TL automatic than the former TL-S compared to the base TL ever was. The one thing Acura could do to make the TL 6-speed significantly better is switch it to RWD, but I'm not holding my breath.
"Acura’s prelim TSX sales target was just 15K units (18K units for RL which, BTW, it will exceed)."
I don't have actual facts to dispute those figures, but those seem like extraordinary low targets for mainstream mass produced cars. Those figures you are quoting are a tiny fraction of 5-series, E-class or Lexus sales. And, if those targets are so low, the fact that the RL is already selling at invoice is even more indicative of poor demand.
The RL's should have been higher (weren't they 20K, not 18?), but they can get away with sales that low because it is so derivative of the American Accord, and by extension the TL. As such, there are less development costs associated with it than other manufacturers have with their mid-lux sedans.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In retrospect, Acura's success with the Legend looks "legendary" compared to the former and current RL, which has never sold as many units, in spite of having infinitely more gadgets and a price that, in real 2005 dollars is considerably less than the 1995 Legend. If I'm not mistaken, the 1995 legend sold 30,000+ units, in it's next to last year of production. The former RL, introduced in 1997, had a list price $3k less than the 1995 Legend GS, and sales dropped like a rock. The $55k Lexus LS took over as the biggest premium seller from Japan. Acura stole defeat out of the jaws of victory.
It is in the historical context of the old Legend GS 6-speed that I continue to believe that Acura as a nameplate has the heritage to put up a $50-60k alternative to the 550i and E500 Sport. But I'm not sure how long this window of opportunity will remain open.
I don't think the RL should play that role today, though, it's too heavy and luxurious. Let the TL do it, or maybe even the TSX (bring a coupe version of that).
And you have to wonder if they made any money on those high-end Legends.
-juice
Then suddenly Lexus and Infiniti are on the scene, as are near-lux nameplates from more plebian brands, like the Mitsubishi Diamante and the Mazda 929. Acura launched the Vigor to slot in between the Integra and Legend, but it did very little to help. The lion's share of Acura sales were Integras.
Something had to be done, and it was obvious that if they stayed their course they would be destined for oblivion. People were buying Integras, but weren't moving up to Legends. And the name "Acura" had very little brand value. That's actually the main reason that they started dumping real names and giving them letter designations, to put the emphasis on the brand name "Acura" and not model names like "Vigor" or "Legend"
The Vigor was re-worked into the TL, where it became a success. The Legend sedan was replaced by the RL, where it WAS competitive...at first. And the Legend coupe was more or less replaced by the CL. Acura was turned around and popular again, but most of that popularity came from improved redesigns of the Integra and TL. The CL, while it improved greatly in its later years, was just another victim of the declining coupe market. For some reason they just seemed to sit on the RL though, and it became more stale as the years went on. Meanwhile the TL has improved so much that the RL, even with its newest design, just got lost in the shuffle.
I saw a new RL yesterday in the mall parking lot. It just has a diminutive, wallflower look about it. No presence whatsover. It looks like a $20K car, and not a $50K car. In contrast, the TL at least LOOKS like a $30K car IMO! Now, I don't think there's any way to define what a $50K car "should" look like, but the new RL ain't it!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm sure today the TL+RL combined sell more than the Legend+Vigor did back then. Acura may not be happy about the shift towards more affordable cars but overall I'm sure they sell more.
-juice
Also, the Accord grew up quite a bit, in price, power, and accoutrements, from 1992 to 1998, whereas the Vigor/TL seemed like it stayed pretty much stagnant.
Nissan has changed that in the past 4-5 years. Newer models are getting their own platforms or significantly revised versions of the same platform. Lexus is starting to add more platforms in addition to those shared with Toyotas. The IS250 for example.
So, Honda/Acura is starting to lag behind in this area, but it's not like Lexus and Nissan have been doing this differently from a historic perspective.
Now that Lexus plans to go global, it will start getting truly unique products. That's necessary to gain respect in Europe and among enthusiasts here.
-juice
Detroit thinks the "run has NOT run out."
Which has not helped it to sell well. At least I trust in Honda not to "pull a GM" here and axe it after year two just because of low sales. If they go the distance with it, maybe add a hybrid with more power or something, DEFINITELY smooth out that front end, sales might eventually pick up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well... all those cars were actually developed for Lexus first, and then rebadged as Toyotas to be able to sell them in Japan. They were based off existing Toyota platforms, but the IS and GS were very different from any other Toyotas so I don't think it's fair to call them rebadges. (The IS shared a platform with the Cressida's Japan-only successor, and I don't know about the GS.)
The ES was made for Americans as a Lexusized Camry. Then it got rebadged "Toyota Windom" and sold in Japan because it was considered sufficiently different to not be a trim level of the Camry. Yeah, it's arguable.
To the trained eye (ours), the previous TL and CL are almost as close to the Accord as the ES and Camry are. The first Legend looked like an Accord with fender flares and other improvements; the beltline kink at the rear window gives it away. (On the other hand the new RL looks like what an Accord could look like, but it doesn't really look like an actual Accord.)
Acura's finally going to Japan and that'll let Honda develop separate design languages just like Lexus has. It's about time. Hopefully they use the new TL's styling cues everywhere... but I'd like to see how this affects the European Accord, and if that'll be too different from the future Acura look to use as a TSX.
I'm waiting to see if Honda can take the North American Car & Truck of the Year awards, though. Those are voted on by various publications, so they carry a pretty good snapshot of what the press thinks is the next big thing.
I'm surprised the RAV4 hasn't received any of these awards, it's not even in the top 3 for North American Truck of the Year!
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
I love the TL - just wish it was $30K. Its more.
Honda's run is far from running out. Its just starting to accelerate at the expense of Ford's and GM's demise.
You've got RAV4s near $33k sans a 3rd row or NAV, Passats at $38k without 4Motion, and A3 Quattro hatchbacks in the mid 30s.
-juice
The EX-L Accord I just got for ~20K has more than enough goodies for any semi-sane person. Really hard to justify an extra 15K to move up to something noticably better.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
My sentiments exactly.
At some point, I will look into some suspension pieces (shocks, bushings, anit-roll bars, whatever makes sense on a car with bones), the lip spoiler ight be neat (although pricey at $599) Just to make it look a little sharper, and firm up the handling a bit.
Another reason to get something nice. It's more likely you will keep it for a long time, making some upgrades more reasonable.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
So yeah, a bit over $30K, but still on the low end, and still seems like a lot of car for the money.
J/K by the way. Autos are fine in the marketplace.
-juice
Ironic thing is, while the stick was excellent when I bought the car, I've changed the tranny fluid to GM synchromesh which made it buttry slick. I bet the GM diehards would be shocked to hear a GM product helped improve a Honda... :shades: It is an awesome product.
I don't find Toyo sticks to be that special, certainly not Honda like which are some of the best in the industry. As far as Autos go, I prefer the action of Toyo's over Hondas though.
And as far as styling goes on the exterior, I am not a fan of the next gen Camry. A bit overdone IMO. But the interior is A+ and is certainly on par with the Accord.
JM2C...
You don't have to take it. But people who shift pretty badly on most cars (like me) seem like masters shifting a Honda.
I thought the TL's brakes were too grabby though.
We've had a 1979 Honda Accord 5-Sp HB (Dad's hand me down), 1986 Honda Civic DX 5-Sp HB (Sis), 1986 Honda Accord LX-i 5-Sp HB (Bro), and a 1990 Honda Accord LX Auto Sedan (Mom).
After those not one of us have ever bought another. They used to be practical, inexpensive, fun to drive, unique transportation. Lately they have been none of those things. It's unfortunate. We've even stopped buying their motorcycles.
Yes they had some problems, yes they fell apart, were raher expensive to repair, and NO the new one's weren't heading in the right directions. :sick:
Here's hoping Honda gets back on the stick and gives the American buyer the basics again!
The shift feel is one of the big things that crossed it off our shopping list.
-juice
After a bad experience with a 1987 Acura Integra, I thought I was gone from the Nonda/Acura camp forever. The problems started at 60k miles and ate me alive until I finally handed the keys to Salvation Army at 115k miles.
It's replacement, a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed, was an excpetional car. So much so that after 10 years and 150k+ miles, I couldn't bear to trade or sell it, so I relocated it to our second home. Unfortunately, in 2004, Nissan's Maxima had gone backwards in quality and sportiness and Infiniti's G35 was interior design by committee. So we gave the TL 6-speed a chance and after 20k miles, I couldn't be much happier. Prior to that, we owned a Honda S2000 and since then we purchased an MDX. All have met or exceeded my expectations. Especially the S2000 and TL.
Sorry you had bad experiences with Honda back 15-20 years ago. I'm glad I was able to overcome mine.
Try them. It's only $215 there. They are easy to install yourself too. When we buy our Hondas new we usually spec em out with all accessories included. It's just easier that way.
Oooh! Why does Acura have to go to Japan? THe great exterior of the TL was designed here in the USA in California I think so where are they moving Acura design to Japan?
I don't see how Lexus has a sperate design langauge from Toyota since the front of the 06 Camry looks like the current front end of the 2002 Es300/330.
The First generation TL I think ran through 1996-1998. It didn;t have the sales success of the 99-03 or 04+ model though.
"as just a tarted up Accord. Looking at the '92-94 Vigor, and the TL which ran up through 1998, it looks like they just took a 1990-93 Accord and tried to turn it into a 4-door hardtop."
THe 1st generation TL had huge headlights that were more remeniscent of the 96-97 Accord's front end styling theme than the 90-93 Accord's. The Vigor I never liked it because it looked boxy.
Oh I don't mean the design studios should move. I mean that if our Acuras are sold as Hondas in Japan (and Europe), then Hondas and Acuras have to share a family look. And that's bad for Acura; they should look very different from Hondas.
The TL and MDX are only for the American market. The RL is global, so it has to look like a Honda and well, it does! But it shouldn't! And it won't!
As for Lexus, the current ES is old and pre-L-Finesse; the next one should look pretty different. I don't see much L-Finesse in the new Camry; it shares details with the Avalon that don't look very L-Finessy. I guess we can expect Lexus and Toyota to keep some similarities, since they are family. But some of those are just general design trends throughout the industry, like thinner headlights.
But, yeah, I agree. Adding Acura to the world market should allow them to further differentiate the styling of Honda and Acura products.
The Lexus/Toyota similarities which seem most obvious to me are the front ends on the IS250 and the Scion tC.
-juice
The Acura TL is having these same issues as well. The 99 TL(first year of the previous generation TL) had an excellent reliability rating for body integrity. The 04 TL had a below average reliability for body integrity. The 05 TL has an average reliability for body integrity and I should note its not made in Japan. The TL is made in the US.
"Body Integrity" has to do with sqeauks & rattles in cars. You know if an owner of a car hears a sqeauk or rattle in their car. I think "Body Integrity" has to with water leak issues in an individual owners car as well.
-juice