"What Honda does need, if sales volume is a concern, is a lower starting price tag, and aggressive marketing. Relying completly on engineering prowess and assuming people will understand it, doesn't work, especially in a class where badge matters more than anything else around it."
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. The last thing I want to see is "more aggressive marketing" instead of some real "engineering prowess". That's precisely what is wrong with the current car. Too much marketing hoopla and not enough substance.
If you don't think relying on engineering prowess works, consider the Porsche 911 or Honda's own S2000 for that matter. I hardly recall ever seeing a television advertisement for either of those cars. Nor the BMW M3, M5 or any AMG models. When you deliver on substance, the right people will figure it out and reward you accordingly.
I know we live in an era where "aggressive marketing" is all around us, and thanks to Yahoo, Google, and the internet we practically have to go to sleep to stop having our eyeballs counted by some advertising agency nerd. Let's not propogate that as consumers by encouraging companies to be even more aggressive with marketing and less concerned about substance. We don't need more Nike's, we need more New Balances.
Actually, it all depends what you watch and read. There are some channels and magazines where Porsche (as a general brand) has a heavy presence (think Forbes, Fortune, Business Week, Wall St. Jrnl, some tennis and golf tournaments, etc.). There was a several-month long run of E55 AMG "beast" ad in 04, if I recall. Did not see many M ads, but haven't read any Fortune, Forbes magazines lately...
It all depends what they believe is their target customer. You'll unlikely see Bentley commercials in Super Bowl break, but step into some "trendy" jazz festival, you here it might be... (just an example, I actually have no clue what kind of music is Bentley's customer).
You need to get to a Hyundai dealer and see the new models especially the Tiburon, Sonata and Azera they are way ahead of Honda's styling. Honda has rested on its laurels and will now pay the price.
Funny, that's what some said in 2004, then 2005 and here we have the S2000 going into it's 6th year of production for 2006. And it still takes $60,000 in the form of a Boxster S to get a better handling, more fun to drive roadster.
Yes, as a limited production, hand built car, the S2000 hasn't exactly been financial workhorse for Honda. But consider that even in November 2001, two full years after the car was introduced, the Edmunds TMV was still $4,000 OVER MSRP. I fought like crazy to get one for $32k ($880 under MSRP) on the Saturday before Thanksgiving as snow was falling. You'd have to go to a Ferrari dealer to find any other car that sold at a premium for so long after it was introduced.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Fast and Furious series. I actually have three digits in my IQ which is one more than you are allowed, to get in. For all I know, that Dumb and Dumber demographic thinks a 911 is a chick car, too. But in any event, I suspect Honda was shooting a little higher on the evolutionary scale with the S2000.
I don't know about that. Hyundai's sedan styling right now is as derivative as ever. The cars themselves for sure are light years ahead of their past and for all intents and purposes are probably just fine. But Hyundai is not a styling leader.
The Azera is the love child from a Buick Lacrosse and an Accord.
The Sonata has a semi-Camry greenhouse with an Accord butt.
I actually kind of like the Tiburon, it's like a little Ferrari looking thing. Better than the ghastly previous model. Hyundai's best effort.
They make the SantaFe, which is one of the ugliest cars sold in NA.
I don't see where Honda has messed up. The Accord update is an improvement IMO, and the new Civic is funky but cool, especially inside. We'll have to wait for new model sales numbers to see if they "pay the price"...
There's never been any clear indication that the S2K was meant to be something other than a one shot deal. The car was intended as a birthday present for the company.
"Here, folks, design a sports car which represents the company's 50 year history, racing heritage, and emphasis on technology. Then we'll build it. Happy birthday, everyone."
There was never any mention of a 55th birthday present to follow it up. Maybe it was meant to be a permanent addition to the line-up. Maybe not. The way the project was initiated (birthday present), the way it was executed (unique platform), and the way they built it (coach-builder facility) all suggest it was not meant for the long term. But that's speculation on my part.
For the past few years, the S2000 has been selling at about the same pace as the Boxter and Miata. When released, Honda expected to sell 5K units here in the US. They sell about 150% of that total. The rest of the world has not received it as well, though. So whether Honda makes a profit on the S2K is anybody's guess.
Of course, there are other reasons to keep the S2K around. The fact that it still outperforms newer cars on the market does earn the little Honda some street cred. When Nissan's 350Z roadster hit the scene, the S2K was the natural competitor. In every comparo I've read, the 4-5 year old Honda came out on top. The engine has been featured on the Ward's list several times. It doesn't gather crowds at the autoshows, but every time I go to one there are people having their picture taken while sitting inside. It's a great PR tool.
Honda may drop the S2K to shift resources toward Fukui's V10-powered exotic. Thus keeping the performance halo intact, but changing up the medium. Been there, done that, got nothing left to prove... so we're moving on.
Well... Toyota's management ordered a last minute overhaul of the Corolla's sheetmetal when they saw the new Civic. The move puts them behind schedule by six months or more. So, I don't think Honda is doing too badly on the styling front.
They took a different approach with the S2000, for which they received much critical acclaim, but it wasn't more than a footnote on their income statement.
I don't agree with that. How many people came to a Honda showroom to "check out" the S2000, only to leave purchasing another Honda? You can't just judge the success of a car like that one by just looking at the year-end sales sheet. Cars like the S2000 are "halo" cars, and their success goes far beyond what is considered the obvious.
The styling inside and out on the Corrolla is way outdated. I really liked the new Civic alot but they are charging outrages prices for them. I bought a Honda Pilot (my wife insisted on the Pilot) in summer 2003 when they were hot and took a real beating on the price don't want to do that again.
Good for you for not making that mistake again! I don't know if you are in the market for the new Civic or not, but I agree with you (don't I?) that waiting until prices settle down to their usual bargaining levels (at least under MSRP!) and hype drops before shopping the Civic. Right now, in central Alabama, the best I've heard of is someone paying sticker for an LX manual Civic. With a little time, (say, next summer) this will not be the norm, and I suspect Civics will go for $1,000 under that figure.
With the waiting lists and zero negotiation possible on Civics right now, I don't know if one can say Honda is worrying about having to "pay the price" - they just created another hit. Wait if you want one cheaper, but they've set the small car standard again.
A friend of mine bought an 03 Accord coupe right when they came out in late 02, he paid full sticker too.
I had really settled on the Honda Civic for alot of reasons but charging MSRP or over because of supply and demand right now was crazy. I had heard about the new Sonata and walked into a Hyundai dealership the first time I had been in one since 1988. LSS, I bought a 2006 Sonata. It is a great car. They will sell for about 500 below invoice less a bunch of rebates I got 2,000 worth.
Bingo. Hyundai may be better mechanically than it once was, but their styling is all lookalike wannabe.
The Sonata's front end still looks like a Russian taxicab and the rear was stolen from 03-05 Accord. Even the Azera looks Camryesque from the front. The lines are so 90s.
Hyundai rules in the bland styling department. Honda will redo the Accord for 08 and the accolades will roll in like on the new Civic.
"Hyundai is closing on their "six" and has isn't finger on the trigger!"
Say what?? Perhaps I'm just too out of touch to understand Ebonics or Pig Latin, but if you you choose to post in those languages, could you please add English subtitles for old farts like me? Thanks.
P.S. While I have been known to search the globe for the best deal when shopping for a new car, I still abide by the advice: It's better to pay a fair price for a great product, than get a great price for a fair product.
I really do not know how things are in the rest of the country, but in the Washington, DC area I do not believe that one needs to pay MSRP for a Civic. I recently purchased an EX coupe (not w/Nav) for $17,250. This included appearance package and mud guards. OTD price was just around $19,100.
LOL! I guess you are not an aviator. Your six O'Clock postion is behind you (12 O'Clock in front of you). If someone says watch "your six" they mean watch your back. Forward to right right is one oclock, more to the right two oclock etc. like the position of hands on a clock.
Hyundai is in position to shoot down the top six car manufacturers one by one!!!
I was interested in a Civic EX too. I did some internet dickering with them. I went to some lots too and all they had were maybe four or five Civics not all EX and some were stick (my wife made me get an auto so she could drive it. I tried to teach her to drive stick once it was such a fisaco we almost got divorced because of it :sick:)
Anyway they all quoted MSRP or there abouts. You did great!!
"Well... Toyota's management ordered a last minute overhaul of the Corolla's sheetmetal when they saw the new Civic. The move puts them behind schedule by six months or more. So, I don't think Honda is doing too badly on the styling front."
How do you know that Toyota is changing the sheetmetal for their next Corolla? I am not questioning your sources to how you got information that Toyota ordered last minute changes to the Corolla sheet metal but what are your sources. Anyways, when is Toyota ever known for their styling? I mean most Toyota buyers don't even care what care what their car looks like stylistically.
"Honda better do something and fast! Hyundai is closing on their "six" and has isn't finger on the trigger!"
I know Hyundai has gotten better with their product but they are 500,000-600,000 units behind Number 6 selling automaker in the US(Nissan) so they(Hyundai) has a ways to go catch the Japanese Big 3. Hyundai did pass Mazda, Mitsu, amd VW between the 2000-2002 model years I think but they have a ways to go to catch everybody else saleswise. I don't know when Hyundai passed Subaru in sales though.
"With the waiting lists and zero negotiation possible on Civics right now, I don't know if one can say Honda is worrying about having to "pay the price" - they just created another hit. Wait if you want one cheaper, but they've set the small car standard again."
"A friend of mine bought an 03 Accord coupe right when they came out in late 02, he paid full sticker too."
I don't get why people are on waiting lists for a Honda and are paying MSRP. Its a Honda! Don't get me wrong I've been a Honda fan since my high school years(1994-1998)but I would never pay MSRP for one. You take a big hit on resale if you pay MSRP I bet. Not to diss your friend who bought an 03 Accord Coupe when it first came out but he could have gottn a better deal if he just waited until spring or summer time of 03 to buy one.
Toyota and Honda will not fall over night but they will either fall or step up their game. My point is Hyundai is a company to be reckoned with and the other manufacturers dismiss them at their peril.
"Toyota and Honda will not fall over night but they will either fall or step up their game."
I think Honda has stepped up their game. Their Acura Line has been selling well since 1999. The Oddessy is selling well. The new Civic so far has been a good seller. The Acura TL is selling well. I think they are doing fine.
"My point is Hyundai is a company to be reckoned with and the other manufacturers dismiss them at their peril.:
I agree with you people are treating Hyundai like they did Honda, Toyota, and Nissan in the early 80's: people do not take their cars very seriously as competition. Back in the 80's Domestic Big 3 loyalistas and the bosses at Domestic Big 3 took the Japanese compeition as lightweight. Fast Foward to 2005: the Domestic 2.5 is losing market share to the Japanese and Hyundai.
On a side note at some point Hyundai has to lose the 10 year warranty and charge the same prices as the Japanese Big 3 to be taken as clear-cut competition to the Japanese Big 3.
What can I say, impulse buyer. He just couldn't wait.
I'd never pay MSRP either, hell, I'd still have problems simply buying new.
Many carmakers wish they had such a workaday yet desireable product like an Accord that could attract such attention. The new Civic is doing it again, and if the next Accord is good, it will too.
"Many carmakers wish they had such a workaday yet desireable product like an Accord that could attract such attention. The new Civic is doing it again, and if the next Accord is good, it will too."
Yeah it looks like the new Civic is doing it again anmd returning to the glory days of the 92-95 and 96-00 models(the coupe at least.)
I am heavily anticipating the new Accord. I hope it doesn;t dissapoint.
S2000 - a buddy of mine had a bit of trouble selling his used earlier this year, ended up upside-down on the loan. Maybe demand is higher in other regions. I don't see why anyone would pay more than MSRP, he got something like mid 20s for a pristine one year old.
Maybe I should have bought it! LOL
New Civics in the DC area are easy to find and no longer at MSRP. It's a buyer's market so even hot new models don't stay hot for long:
Just noticed they have an unsold S2000 from last model year for a whopping $3700 off list, maybe Edmunds needs to update their TMV!
Hyundai is doing quite well, but I think they're more of a threat to the Big 3 than they are to Honda. I do think the newer models like the Sonata represent a solid value, and once the public perception of Hyundai improves, so will residuals.
I always say, perception lags behind reality. In the car biz, by 5 years or more.
I know it's a subjective thing, but I think the new Sonata is pleasing to the eye. Yeah, it's deriviative...at a quick glance it makes me think of an Accord. I like the proportioning a bit better, though. Style-wise it just seems better-balanced than the Accord, with taillights that fit better, and headlights that aren't peeled back.
I kinda like the new Azera too, although Fintail nailed it perfectly with that love child comment! I think the Tiburon's a nice looking little car as well, and I think the Kia Sorrento is proof positive that a cheap SUV doesn't have to look cheap!
Still, it takes more than just style to sell cars. And while Hyundai/Kia have made great strides over the years, they're really going to have to wow the public to make them give up their Toyotas and Hondas.
of all that Honda has stepped up their game is the new Civic. They moved it forward the full notch you would expect at a model revision, then moved it forward the extra half-notch they skipped in the '01 redo.
Next litmus test for Honda will be the '08 Accord, and of course they will also have to work hard on the next CRV before then, as that is a segment that is more hotly contested all the time.
In my area Hyundais are already considered the equals of GM and Ford cars in engineering, materials and reliability, and of course the 100K warranty clinches it. This is a big part of why the domestics cannot get car sales back, even with decent new models.
As for Toyota and Honda, I am absolutely positive they do not take ANY of their competition lightly, and will not allow themselves to be overtaken by Hyundai or Kia. But the gap IS narrowing, I would agree. They will have to work harder in future.
And carguy: the report on the Corolla was in last week's Autoweek, if memory serves. They put the '08 Corolla back in the oven for a while to improve the styling, after they saw the '06 Civic. Which will probably mean that Civic leads the compact segment in sales for the next two calendar years. Of course, there are no cash incentives on Civic or Corolla, so both companies are doing just fine with their smaller models.
edit...oops, boomcheck beat me to it, and it may have been MT instead of AW, I forget which as I was reading them both this weekend.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I thought those pictures were of the European/Japanese Corolla. (Our Corolla is known as the Altis in Japan, and not sold in Europe.)
A lot of people think the Civic looks weird. I wonder if it'll be like the Audi TT or the 5-series, which a few years later look pretty normal. But that's what happens when you lead... if you get people to follow you.
I think it's funny that Honda started the big-eye look, and after everyone has followed they've switched to narrow eyes.
Boomcheck was right. MotorTrend's January issue, page 28. The article (really just a vignette) puts a positive spin on it... "it underscores Toyota's resolve to shake off it's reputation for building bland cars." But the backhand on that is a compliment to Honda's styling of the Civic.
I think the only reason they added the spin was because Toyota has been making so many announcements lately that it is going to straighten up its act on the styling score, and hire some real stylists. Sounds like that was all talk, if Honda could cause them to stick the Corolla back in the oven after it was already mostly finished.
And then of course, there is one more thing to consider: MT is more often wrong than any other publication out there. So maybe this is nothing but a rumor?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The article states that the changes will set the release back at least six months. Anybody know when the Corolla is scheduled for release? If it's late, we'll know.
When they have to stat building the highest selling models here and they have to start paying U.S. wages and benefits. The cost advantage will start to erode pretty soon. The Chinese are coming too. Hyundai better watch thier back.
As China develops, their wages will rise too - the government's trying to guarantee that they do, because increasing inequity was the cause of many of China's revolutions (including the communist one against an even worse government).
In any case, if Chinese quality is good enough, everyone will just start building their cars there instead. Bad for Americans, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, English, Eastern Europeans, etc... but not necessarily bad for brands from those countries.
it does not overproduce. It helps resale value. They don't get caught with months of inventory to liquidate (Think 2004 Chevy SSR or Any year Chrysler Crossfire). If dealerships don't order the cars, they don't get built, period.
Check out the Edmunds blogs for the new Camry. Slightly less boring, still very safe, but the V6 is what gets my attention, plus the hybrid.
Interestingly, they chose not to compete with the Accord V6 hybrid, and will build a 4 banger hybrid instead. They're probably going after the green points as opposed to the performance the Accord Hybrid offers.
I think. And since Honda has a narrower model line-up, it wouldn't hurt for them to have both performance and gas-saving hybrid versions of the Accord. Problem is, they don't have an existing powertrain for that purpose - they only have the V-6 hybrid and the tiny little 4-cyl hybrid for the Civic. If they could develop one in between, I think it would sell in the Accord. They could plug it in the CRV too and milk it for all it's worth.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am a dyed in the wool Honda guy having owned more Hondas than anything else. On perennial search for a car for my wife to needlessly replace her perfectly fine 2002 Subaru Subaru Outback LL Bean. (Okay - some need - it is too small for me and now that we have a child and another coming, we could definitely use more space. Japanese design space, reliability and some fun is what I am looking for. The fun having slightly more use to than space which is why I resist the logical Odyssey.)
I was eagerly anticipating the new Acura RDX and Honda CR-V when the RAV4 came out. I have not sat in one yet but it is getting good press and looks like an impressive value.
Toyotas generally leave me cold when compared to the Honda competition but this RAV4 looks very impressive in size and power and overall price. It might even nab a few low end Pilot sales.
So here is hoping the CR-V and RDX twins are up to the newly raised bar. All things equal, I buy Honda over Toyota but as it stands now, the RAV4 appears to offer me more of what I need at a better price the current Honda / Acura offerings.
Comments
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. The last thing I want to see is "more aggressive marketing" instead of some real "engineering prowess". That's precisely what is wrong with the current car. Too much marketing hoopla and not enough substance.
If you don't think relying on engineering prowess works, consider the Porsche 911 or Honda's own S2000 for that matter. I hardly recall ever seeing a television advertisement for either of those cars. Nor the BMW M3, M5 or any AMG models. When you deliver on substance, the right people will figure it out and reward you accordingly.
I know we live in an era where "aggressive marketing" is all around us, and thanks to Yahoo, Google, and the internet we practically have to go to sleep to stop having our eyeballs counted by some advertising agency nerd. Let's not propogate that as consumers by encouraging companies to be even more aggressive with marketing and less concerned about substance. We don't need more Nike's, we need more New Balances.
It all depends what they believe is their target customer. You'll unlikely see Bentley commercials in Super Bowl break, but step into some "trendy" jazz festival, you here it might be... (just an example, I actually have no clue what kind of music is Bentley's customer).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I'm not even about a halo effect, given the Fast & Furious movies made it the girl's car.
-juice
Funny, that's what some said in 2004, then 2005 and here we have the S2000 going into it's 6th year of production for 2006. And it still takes $60,000 in the form of a Boxster S to get a better handling, more fun to drive roadster.
Yes, as a limited production, hand built car, the S2000 hasn't exactly been financial workhorse for Honda. But consider that even in November 2001, two full years after the car was introduced, the Edmunds TMV was still $4,000 OVER MSRP. I fought like crazy to get one for $32k ($880 under MSRP) on the Saturday before Thanksgiving as snow was falling. You'd have to go to a Ferrari dealer to find any other car that sold at a premium for so long after it was introduced.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Fast and Furious series. I actually have three digits in my IQ which is one more than you are allowed, to get in. For all I know, that Dumb and Dumber demographic thinks a 911 is a chick car, too. But in any event, I suspect Honda was shooting a little higher on the evolutionary scale with the S2000.
The Azera is the love child from a Buick Lacrosse and an Accord.
The Sonata has a semi-Camry greenhouse with an Accord butt.
I actually kind of like the Tiburon, it's like a little Ferrari looking thing. Better than the ghastly previous model. Hyundai's best effort.
They make the SantaFe, which is one of the ugliest cars sold in NA.
I don't see where Honda has messed up. The Accord update is an improvement IMO, and the new Civic is funky but cool, especially inside. We'll have to wait for new model sales numbers to see if they "pay the price"...
"Here, folks, design a sports car which represents the company's 50 year history, racing heritage, and emphasis on technology. Then we'll build it. Happy birthday, everyone."
There was never any mention of a 55th birthday present to follow it up. Maybe it was meant to be a permanent addition to the line-up. Maybe not. The way the project was initiated (birthday present), the way it was executed (unique platform), and the way they built it (coach-builder facility) all suggest it was not meant for the long term. But that's speculation on my part.
For the past few years, the S2000 has been selling at about the same pace as the Boxter and Miata. When released, Honda expected to sell 5K units here in the US. They sell about 150% of that total. The rest of the world has not received it as well, though. So whether Honda makes a profit on the S2K is anybody's guess.
Of course, there are other reasons to keep the S2K around. The fact that it still outperforms newer cars on the market does earn the little Honda some street cred. When Nissan's 350Z roadster hit the scene, the S2K was the natural competitor. In every comparo I've read, the 4-5 year old Honda came out on top. The engine has been featured on the Ward's list several times. It doesn't gather crowds at the autoshows, but every time I go to one there are people having their picture taken while sitting inside. It's a great PR tool.
Honda may drop the S2K to shift resources toward Fukui's V10-powered exotic. Thus keeping the performance halo intact, but changing up the medium. Been there, done that, got nothing left to prove... so we're moving on.
I don't agree with that. How many people came to a Honda showroom to "check out" the S2000, only to leave purchasing another Honda? You can't just judge the success of a car like that one by just looking at the year-end sales sheet. Cars like the S2000 are "halo" cars, and their success goes far beyond what is considered the obvious.
Bob
BTW, I'm new to this forum, so, "Hi Everyone!"
thegrad
A friend of mine bought an 03 Accord coupe right when they came out in late 02, he paid full sticker too.
It's about time that Toyota comes up with an all new Corolla. At that time, Honda will offer some specials for the Civic.
I had really settled on the Honda Civic for alot of reasons but charging MSRP or over because of supply and demand right now was crazy. I had heard about the new Sonata and walked into a Hyundai dealership the first time I had been in one since 1988. LSS, I bought a 2006 Sonata. It is a great car. They will sell for about 500 below invoice less a bunch of rebates I got 2,000 worth.
The Sonata's front end still looks like a Russian taxicab and the rear was stolen from 03-05 Accord. Even the Azera looks Camryesque from the front. The lines are so 90s.
Hyundai rules in the bland styling department. Honda will redo the Accord for 08 and the accolades will roll in like on the new Civic.
Say what?? Perhaps I'm just too out of touch to understand Ebonics or Pig Latin, but if you you choose to post in those languages, could you please add English subtitles for old farts like me? Thanks.
P.S. While I have been known to search the globe for the best deal when shopping for a new car, I still abide by the advice: It's better to pay a fair price for a great product, than get a great price for a fair product.
I recently purchased an EX coupe (not w/Nav) for $17,250. This included appearance package and mud guards. OTD price was just around $19,100.
Hyundai is in position to shoot down the top six car manufacturers one by one!!!
Anyway they all quoted MSRP or there abouts. You did great!!
How do you know that Toyota is changing the sheetmetal for their next Corolla? I am not questioning your sources to how you got information that Toyota ordered last minute changes to the Corolla sheet metal but what are your sources. Anyways, when is Toyota ever known for their styling? I mean most Toyota buyers don't even care what care what their car looks like stylistically.
I know Hyundai has gotten better with their product but they are 500,000-600,000 units behind Number 6 selling automaker in the US(Nissan) so they(Hyundai) has a ways to go catch the Japanese Big 3. Hyundai did pass Mazda, Mitsu, amd VW between the 2000-2002 model years I think but they have a ways to go to catch everybody else saleswise. I don't know when Hyundai passed Subaru in sales though.
"A friend of mine bought an 03 Accord coupe right when they came out in late 02, he paid full sticker too."
I don't get why people are on waiting lists for a Honda and are paying MSRP. Its a Honda! Don't get me wrong I've been a Honda fan since my high school years(1994-1998)but I would never pay MSRP for one. You take a big hit on resale if you pay MSRP I bet. Not to diss your friend who bought an 03 Accord Coupe when it first came out but he could have gottn a better deal if he just waited until spring or summer time of 03 to buy one.
I think Honda has stepped up their game. Their Acura Line has been selling well since 1999. The Oddessy is selling well. The new Civic so far has been a good seller. The Acura TL is selling well. I think they are doing fine.
"My point is Hyundai is a company to be reckoned with and the other manufacturers dismiss them at their peril.:
I agree with you people are treating Hyundai like they did Honda, Toyota, and Nissan in the early 80's: people do not take their cars very seriously as competition. Back in the 80's Domestic Big 3 loyalistas and the bosses at Domestic Big 3 took the Japanese compeition as lightweight. Fast Foward to 2005: the Domestic 2.5 is losing market share to the Japanese and Hyundai.
On a side note at some point Hyundai has to lose the 10 year warranty and charge the same prices as the Japanese Big 3 to be taken as clear-cut competition to the Japanese Big 3.
I'd never pay MSRP either, hell, I'd still have problems simply buying new.
Many carmakers wish they had such a workaday yet desireable product like an Accord that could attract such attention. The new Civic is doing it again, and if the next Accord is good, it will too.
Yeah it looks like the new Civic is doing it again anmd returning to the glory days of the 92-95 and 96-00 models(the coupe at least.)
I am heavily anticipating the new Accord. I hope it doesn;t dissapoint.
S2000 - a buddy of mine had a bit of trouble selling his used earlier this year, ended up upside-down on the loan. Maybe demand is higher in other regions. I don't see why anyone would pay more than MSRP, he got something like mid 20s for a pristine one year old.
Maybe I should have bought it! LOL
New Civics in the DC area are easy to find and no longer at MSRP. It's a buyer's market so even hot new models don't stay hot for long:
http://arlhonda.brownscar.com/Default.aspx?page=new-inventory
Just noticed they have an unsold S2000 from last model year for a whopping $3700 off list, maybe Edmunds needs to update their TMV!
Hyundai is doing quite well, but I think they're more of a threat to the Big 3 than they are to Honda. I do think the newer models like the Sonata represent a solid value, and once the public perception of Hyundai improves, so will residuals.
I always say, perception lags behind reality. In the car biz, by 5 years or more.
-juice
I kinda like the new Azera too, although Fintail nailed it perfectly with that love child comment! I think the Tiburon's a nice looking little car as well, and I think the Kia Sorrento is proof positive that a cheap SUV doesn't have to look cheap!
Still, it takes more than just style to sell cars. And while Hyundai/Kia have made great strides over the years, they're really going to have to wow the public to make them give up their Toyotas and Hondas.
The Corolla is slated for a full model change anyways, but after it was redesigned, they did another update on it to make it less bland.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Next litmus test for Honda will be the '08 Accord, and of course they will also have to work hard on the next CRV before then, as that is a segment that is more hotly contested all the time.
In my area Hyundais are already considered the equals of GM and Ford cars in engineering, materials and reliability, and of course the 100K warranty clinches it. This is a big part of why the domestics cannot get car sales back, even with decent new models.
As for Toyota and Honda, I am absolutely positive they do not take ANY of their competition lightly, and will not allow themselves to be overtaken by Hyundai or Kia. But the gap IS narrowing, I would agree. They will have to work harder in future.
And carguy: the report on the Corolla was in last week's Autoweek, if memory serves. They put the '08 Corolla back in the oven for a while to improve the styling, after they saw the '06 Civic. Which will probably mean that Civic leads the compact segment in sales for the next two calendar years. Of course, there are no cash incentives on Civic or Corolla, so both companies are doing just fine with their smaller models.
edit...oops, boomcheck beat me to it, and it may have been MT instead of AW, I forget which as I was reading them both this weekend.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A lot of people think the Civic looks weird. I wonder if it'll be like the Audi TT or the 5-series, which a few years later look pretty normal. But that's what happens when you lead... if you get people to follow you.
I think it's funny that Honda started the big-eye look, and after everyone has followed they've switched to narrow eyes.
And then of course, there is one more thing to consider: MT is more often wrong than any other publication out there. So maybe this is nothing but a rumor?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In any case, if Chinese quality is good enough, everyone will just start building their cars there instead. Bad for Americans, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, English, Eastern Europeans, etc... but not necessarily bad for brands from those countries.
Accord 03 was to lead but it didn't work with that style it suffered. The 3 year redesign verified that problem was real.
If the car I saw passing on the interstate was the 06 Civic, it looked amazing like the current Corolla from the rear.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And the Accord rear really was ugly, I don't know what they were thinking.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Interestingly, they chose not to compete with the Accord V6 hybrid, and will build a 4 banger hybrid instead. They're probably going after the green points as opposed to the performance the Accord Hybrid offers.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I was eagerly anticipating the new Acura RDX and Honda CR-V when the RAV4 came out. I have not sat in one yet but it is getting good press and looks like an impressive value.
Toyotas generally leave me cold when compared to the Honda competition but this RAV4 looks very impressive in size and power and overall price. It might even nab a few low end Pilot sales.
So here is hoping the CR-V and RDX twins are up to the newly raised bar. All things equal, I buy Honda over Toyota but as it stands now, the RAV4 appears to offer me more of what I need at a better price the current Honda / Acura offerings.