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Comments
What do you mean by this anything ???? Are you talking about clutch, brake pedal, gas pedal, set-up ?????
Rocky
BTW- I think the Type-S needs some nice ventilated(AC)seats.
Rocky
Rocky
My only other beef with the TL is the stock wheel design. the five spoke design looks like something off an 86' Z28 Camaro.
But it is a very minor nitpick on an otherwise excellent, if not class leading vehicle. And the styling is like none other which is very appealing.
Sounds about right. If I were a gambling man, I'd put it right around a TSX which I believe is at 6.7 seconds.
Well if a track result of such ever materializes, Honda will have another winner and the Calipers.
Rocky
Agree. My 02' STS had heated Rear Seats and yes they are nice.
My only other beef with the TL is the stock wheel design. the five spoke design looks like something off an 86' Z28 Camaro.
LOL I thought I was the only one that saw that. My uncle has a 86' I-Roc-Z and yes I saw the similarity.
But it is a very minor nitpick on an otherwise excellent, if not class leading vehicle. And the styling is like none other which is very appealing.
Yes it is class leading, and perhaps the best bang for your buck and is another reason why I baught one. BTW- I asked my Aunt if she wanted to race for titles against her 04' Grand Prix GTP. You already know her answer.
The Acura TL is probably the best designed vehicle on the market today. I got all kinds of compliments and the teenie bopper girls around town just gawked at that anthracite paint and tinted windows. :shades:
Gosh I do miss that car. I better stop talking about it before I buy another one.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Ah, the LS. Such a promising vehicle. It is a crying shame that FMC let that car languish into extinction, especially the hi-po LSC model for 04'... meanwhile the CTS came in and stole its thunder right out from underneath. :mad:
Rocky
Pilot is just one of the several models in the lineup. Which Honda was a stand out model in 1995? I would be curious to know.
And you may have misunderstood - he was saying Honda was very innovative in the period leading up to 2000, less so since then.
Then I would like to know more about “innovations up to 2000”.
And his "issue" is not with Asimo - he was merely pointing out that in Japan, the home market, Toyota and Nissan are known for their cars available to the public, while Honda is known for a robot. I would agree that is somewhat significant.
Only if he were correct in his assumptions. I disagree. People might see Honda as more than just a car company (which has been true since day 1 at Honda) but that doesn’t bode well with his statements.
I also think it is significant that Honda allowed Toyota to become the media darling for hybrids.
But, has Honda ever been like Toyota, in PR, at any period in time? And what has this got to do with “innovation” or lack of?
As for "not commanding the premium it used to", I think he is generalizing from a few models. However, that has been very true for the Accord since 2004, for the Ridgeline, and even for the Civic for a couple of years before the redo.
I’m not sure what is meant by premium. Is it paying more than MSRP like S2000 commanded in the 2000+ era? Or is it vehicles like MDX, second/third generation Odyssey and Pilot commanding MSRP for a long time?
Besides, doesn’t the huge incentives and rebates from competition also play a role? Name one automaker that has NOT offered a 0% APR financing or advertised a hefty cash back, yet.
If selling a vehicle at close to invoice (as opposed to MSRP) is what one chooses to call “not being able to command premium”, well then I must tell you that I paid close to invoice for my 1998 Accord in Fall 1997. That said, I’m wondering what people are paying for Civic now, compared to what they did a decade ago. Take a guess.
except for the disaster-prone '02-'03 SI
And is that still true? For a company to have lost it mojo, we should find a load of 2006 Si’s collecting dust at the dealership lots right now.
It's a flooded market in North America, at and well over capacity, and it was perhaps inevitable that the period when Honda charged higher prices and sold at sticker would end.
It is not Honda’s fault that vehicles are flooded and incentives rule. I’m still curious to know which cars from Honda were commanding MSRP/higher than MSRP in 1996, ten years ago. Just making a statement didn’t help me get the point, the author should have brought up some real examples.
certain models like the Odyssey and Pilot still sell close to sticker. But they are also not the volume leaders in their segments, and the cars that are (Accord, Civic) are now selling for discounts (well, the Accord is, the Civic was, and will be again after the initial rush of next-gen buyers is done). Honda dealers have had to learn how to bargain.
When was the last time Honda dealers didn’t have to move their products, especially after initial 2-3 years in the market? I’m really curious about it, more so with the claim that 1995-2000 era was so much more better for Honda sales performance wise than it has been since. And those stand outs too!
The problem I have is that everyone seems to think that mojo is the only strength worth having.
There ain't much mojo is being highly regarded for safety. But Honda is building a reputation there.
There isn't much mojo in building a family friendly SUV, but Honda did it better than most.
Sure, the Honda of old was known for hot little economy cars. And they stood out in that niche. But they're a more mature company now with a line-up that crosses several categories of buyers.
I agree and they might of made the worlds first real "drivers" SUV (RDX) that's affordable to most of us with alot of darn technology. BMW start with the throat, and eat your way to the heart. :P
Rocky
Acura had an annual sales of 108K units with a brand new line of Acura products in 1996. The break down:
Integra: 47K (44% of the sales)
CL: 17K
TL: 25K
RL: 16K
SLX: 2.6K
That was when the author claims Honda had the mojo. This is Acura as of 2005, sales of 210K units with the following breakdown:
RSX: 21K (10% of total sales)
TSX: 35K
TL: 78K (37% of total sales)
RL: 18K
MDX: 58K (28% of total sales)
This is a very interesting break up. Acura no longer relies on its cheapest models to carry the sales. As a matter of fact, 65% of Acura sales appear in mid to $40K price class.
And each of these vehicles is better in its time than those 1996 models were at their time. So much for the loss of mojo and innovativeness.
Also worth mentioning is that Honda was apparently "late" in the SUV game when Pilot arrived. In 2005, Honda sold almost as many Pilots (143K) as it did CR-V (150K). And 174K units of Odyssey were moved out... despite being one of the premium minivans out there that doesn't have significantly cheaper models.
As for total (AHM) sales... 844K in 1996 to 1.44 million in 2005... a 70% increase!
May be the author knows something that I'm not getting. If true, I would like to know.
Mojo doesn't sell cars. If there is anyone who knows that, it's Toyota, practically doubling sales every decade without an ounce of mojo.
We may lament the passing of Honda's mojo for sentimental reasons - everyone loves the guy who will stick his neck out and maybe score big, maybe go down in flames. But Honda doesn't lament it - they are on their way to record profits.
Robert: the huge increase in sales that Acura recorded and you mentioned came on the back of product evolutions that were entirely ordinary - take a couple of midsize sedans and a midsize crossover, sport them up or lux them up a bit, or both, then put them out there. Make your top of the line sedan a technological tour de force and give it optional or standard AWD. Isn't this the BMW playbook pretty much word for word? Also the Lexus and Mercedes playbook, unless I miss my guess pretty badly. Acura followed all of them to record sales. Now it will follow the X3 to market with the RDX.
It's funny, because this is exactly what all the Japan-car-haters always complain so loudly about: that the Japanese merely made a better Buick, or a better Mercedes, or whatever, and did nothing original of their own. I do NOT agree with that assessment by the way, but it has elements of truth.
Mojo is what gets you models that sell by the hundreds every year: S2000, NSX, Insight. All of which originated prior to CY 2000, BTW. We could be waiting a while for more models like that - the mojo is flowing away as we speak.
I am a fan of Hondas, so I'm not here to diss them, but I AM sad that the mojo is disappearing as Honda becomes too mainstream for my tastes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But is this any different from the cars in 1995-2000 era? Or earlier? Besides, haven't we discussed at length how Honda should do RWD and V8, like everybody else does? After all, we're not enamored by Honda's unique approach to the luxury market.
Ridgeline is another excellent case for being different and innovative... in a market where just about nobody wants to risk it, and try something different. Honda comes up with something unique. And we say it isn't innovative. If that isn't... what is?
As for innovative - how about the first luxury car with hybrid drive to increase performance? IIRC Honda had a concept quite a while ago for that, didn't they? But who will be the first one to actually do it? Why, Lexus of course, with the LS460H!
But that's just one weak example I thought of on the spur of the moment. I am sure the more imaginative among us could do much better.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Going back to Ridgeline is far more interesting, because it is mentioned in the article. One of Honda’s philosophies, right from the beginning, has been to grow based on success of its existing products one product gives rise to another and so on.
Ridgeline fits right there. And if Honda were to come up with a completely platform like every other wouldn’t it be just like every other pickup in the market? Honda went ahead and revised its light truck platform with a hybrid chassis (who else has done that?) and offered an urban pickup like no other in the market today. Sure, Avalanche looks like it form the side, and that Explorer Sport Trac is simply a pickup version of Explorer as we all assume Ridgeline to be Pilot’s, but the similarities end there.
Ridgeline is unique vehicle that stands out in the crowd, in structure, drive/ride qualities, and features. Every road test that I have seen about it, doesn’t shy away to bring out those aspects. In fact, the biggest issue people have with it is that it is too different from the norm. How can we miss this obvious argument?
And the other, development of new technology when it comes to ICE... HCCI.
Yes, what they did was perfectly logical, and it gave them a pick-up without incurring major costs. Kudos to them. But that is not the same thing as being "innovative".
"Ridgeline is unique vehicle that stands out in the crowd, in structure, drive/ride qualities, and features. Every road test that I have seen about it, doesn’t shy away to bring out those aspects. In fact, the biggest issue people have with it is that it is too different from the norm. How can we miss this obvious argument?"
This part is interesting to me. As we all know, all the "truck people" are mad at the Ridgeline, viewing it as a poser, despite having decent load and towing limits. But it is not that different from the norm. Every time Toyota brings out a new Tacoma (and when they brought out the current Tundra) all the press oohs and aahs over how carlike its demeanor is, and I am sure we will hear more of that when the new Tundra arrives this fall. Same thing with the latest F-150 and now the ridiculous Mark LT. Having a truck with a carlike ride does not sell trucks, as we have seen, and to me is not innovative given how much of that is already available in the market.
The structure is new in concept - but is it new in an important way? Will this lead the way to a new breed of pick-ups that have advantages over their old BOF brethren and gain in popularity? I can't see it. But that would be innovative if so.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Or is it that incurring major development cost is the only way to being innovative? That I could never agree with.
As we all know, all the "truck people" are mad at the Ridgeline, viewing it as a poser, despite having decent load and towing limits. But it is not that different from the norm. Every time Toyota brings out a new Tacoma (and when they brought out the current Tundra) all the press oohs and aahs over how carlike its demeanor is
Not different from the norm? Well, we seem to have a difference of opinion about norm as well. C&D comparison of Ridgeline against other pickups including new Frontier and new Tacoma along with others seems to tackle a few points there.
If I had to ask you to pick one of the following that defines Ridgeline, given the pickup market we have around us, which would be it Ridgeline is:
- Evolutionary in approach
- Revolutionary in approach
Having a truck with a carlike ride does not sell trucks, as we have seen, and to me is not innovative given how much of that is already available in the market.
Then I must ask, what does? As for “sales”, are we worried about it? Then you are disagreeing with the author on lack of risk taking from Honda! Besides, innovativeness does it guarantee huge sales?
The structure is new in concept - but is it new in an important way? Will this lead the way to a new breed of pick-ups that have advantages over their old BOF brethren and gain in popularity?
Possibly! Again, risk taking and innovation do not always translate to huge sales.
honda does make good fwd cars (van too).
Besides, aren't we talking about risk taking (or lack of), and being different (or lack of)?
This is why the ridgeline is a poser. Pickups are light trucks, you know, for trucking things. They are (or should be) developed with a load in mind. They are not a tall, poor handling sedan with the trunk-lid missing.
Its also the same reason a Peterbuilt handles better with triples, than bobtailed.
But, different doesn't mean bad... usually misunderstood. This supports one of the points I have been trying to make. Honda has demonstrated here that it isn't another sheep in the flock.
Have you drive the Ridgeline... to assume things that you have? And better yet, have you actually done so in bad weather conditions? Try THAT on a RWD truck. Ridgeline has a good AWD system (and stability system, which is standard BTW) that acts proactively. So, it is designed to carry load, and without it.
I couldn't say the same about a lot of pickups, if any other at all. Isn't that a reason they are usually found on the roadside when the snow storm hits (more than any other kind of vehicles, in my observation).
BTW, Ridgeline also boasts one of the highest payload capacities in the 4WD world.
All they needed to do is build a cross-over SUV with part of the back missing... and that's enough to win every major and minor award that can be given to a truck.
The Ridgeline may be distictive, but it's still a poser.
2. The LPL for the Ridgeline is a former GM employee who helped develop that plan.
3. It took all of one year for Chrysler to copy the innovations from Ridgeline (see Rampage)
4. The SUV missing the back end was developed first by Ford with the Sport Trac.
All good reasons for calling the Ridgeline a poser.
1. The plan vs. the implementation are light years apart.
2. Former GM huh. Probably showed too much initiative.
3. Nice "concept" but didn't Chrysler also built a 10 cylinder motorcycle and a Jeep with two engines.
4. The Sport Trac and Avalanche are frame based and RWD based. Both of which rob usable space. The RL isn't. The advantages are discussed in that Rampage link.
At least based on the 600, I don't think the big 3 was learning too much about small cars from Honda then! Not exactly suited for the US market..
The Vega, IMO, at the time was just what the US market needed. The problem was GM shooting itself in the foot. If they had managed some level of rust proofing (although to be fair, at that time the Japanese makes rusted just as fast), a bit better build quality (again, not the strong suit in those days), but mostly, A DECENT ENGINE!
You would think after the Corvair they would have gone more mainstream. Just a normal, robust Iron block 4 cyl would have saved a lot of headaches. Remember, at the time (at least before the Civic), the foreign small cars had pretty rudimentary engines (Corolla, Datsuns, etc.). Iron block tractor motors, but at least they were reliable.
If nothing else, Ford got the engine concept right with the Pinto, although (in concept) I think the Vega was a much better product.
What does this have to do with Honda? I dunnow, but it is a nice history lesson as to the bomb that Honda dropped on the big 3 (and Japanese rivals) when the firt Civic CVCCs showed up. Can they do it again?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Not that I'm saying the Ridgeline is bad for what it is. It is a very competent, competitive SUV. More like an Avalance or an Explorer Sport Trac, than a Tacoma. Sort of what they used to call a half-cab, Sorta.
Heck, GM was still trying to build a decent DOHC 4 cylinder when they were building the Fiero. The Quad4 was supposed to be the second coming for GM. The only thing it ended up making was a LOT of vibration. Are any of those still running?
Stickguy, the 600 hardly qualifies as a car. It was a curious oddity though. Kinda like BMW's Isetta. There are a couple of them off in the weeds around this house where I live.
What are they thinking ????? No turbo and no upgrade in horsepower from the Si ????? :confuse:
I'd like to see honda start making VTEC engines with turbo's to slap in TL's, RL, etc. to become a performance benchmark.
The perfect car would be a current Acura TL Type-S or
Type-R with 320+ hp. with a turbo.
Rocky
What's this 'run over' BS?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/carreviews/03/01/cr_top_picks/index.html
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And even more proud if I have the time away from family to enjoy this fine automobile
Lexus always scores higher than Toyota (usually number one, in fact), and Infiniti scores so far above Nissan it's not funny.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's like guys looking at Sports Illustrated swim suit issue; need I say more?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Overall Value Winners!!!
45% Toyota/Lexus
45% Honda/Acura
8% other japanese branded cars
1% chevy
1% German branded cars
(Excluding giant 3/4 ton and larger trucks)