Has Honda's run - run out?

rsholland

I don't think of the Touareg as a crossover. I see it as a real SUV, as its rather hefty curb weight surely indicates. Maybe not "real" in the traditional sense, but certainly "real" in terms of capability. It's as off-road and towing capable as virtually any old-school SUV.

Yes, it has a lot of crossover-like attributes—but built to industrial strength standards, hence the extra weight.

So I think of the Touareg as a "new-school" SUV, and not a crossover.

Bob

varmint

That's 33 mpg in the city. It's rated for 38 on the highway.

Going with an old Geo definitely is the way to go if your only goal is to save gas. Just don't crash in it. Don't expect to hear your passengers. Don't expect to fit anyone in the rear seats. And don't expect it to drive well.

rockylee

And that's not the same feeling I will have in a FIT :confuse:

Rocky

robertsmx

Fit is (supposed to be) rated 33 mpg in city with the automatic. The Chevrolet Metro you talk about was rated 30 mpg with automatic (and 34 mpg on highway).

Yeah, but you will definitely save a lot by going the Metro way... who cares for the compromises!

nippononly

the stick shift Metro was a marvel of fuel economy, by which mark the Fit is less than impressive. But in many other ways it will far outstrip the Metro, like handling, lack of NVH, interior flexibility and carrying capacity, etc.

I am very curious to see which will sell better, the Fit 5-door, or the Yaris sedan. Supposedly the U.S. is a sedan-centric country - will that be borne out?

robertsmx

I'm not sure if EPA estimates have been released for Fit with manual transmission. Besides, Metro was rated 36/42 mpg with manual... marvel? Not sure. It was comparable to 36/44 mpg that Civic HX/5MT was rated with.

But, with 79 HP on tap in the Metro, I would expect it to get better fuel economy than Fit that delivers 35 more horses.

As far as sales go, the greatest strength Fit offers is practicality, and with only 40-50K units being targeted for Fit annually, it will be a high demand car at least until Honda decides to bump up the production and sales.

nippononly

by the less-than-impressive standards of today, 36/42 is borderline marvel territory, yes.

And, Fit has (ahem!) THIRTY more hp than the Metro, not 35. Fit is a lot heavier than the old Metro, so low FE is not that surprising. And from what I had understood (but I could easily be wrong), Honda announced an expected EPA rating of 32/37 for the Fit manual shift.

So which do you think will win the sales race, Fit or Yaris sedan? Sedans are the sure shot in the U.S. of course, but 5-doors have been making a big comeback...

rockylee

What's the Yaris MPG C/H ?

Rocky

dino001

I am big fan of 5-doors (no sedan for me in next 10 years), especially larger ones, but the're not coming back. I wish the were, but the're not.

I gave up on Americans - they simply don't get. I tried to ask around where does this anti-hatchback/wagon mentality is coming from. Nobody could really explain - they mumbled something about old Pinto, or else. They all noded when I told them about driveability of sedan and utility of say small SUV, they noded (like you nod to a crazy person just to make them stop talking), and their next vehicle is of course a sedan or SUV.

robertsmx

30 more HP if you choose to compare the new SAE rating system to the old (I would go on to say that Fit would had been rated 115 HP/110 lb.-ft if old standards were used, as it actually is right now in Japanese market, compared to 79 HP/75 lb.-ft for Metro). 36/42 mpg is indeed good, but I would not call it a marvel, by yester-standards or today... certainly not when you consider Civic HX was a much better car with 36/44 mpg in the same era.

So, why isn't Fit rated like that? We don't know, but ratings aside, reality may be different.

As for sales race, if Honda chooses to sell 40K units a year, and Toyota goes for 60K or 80K... would you still call it a race?

Personally, everything else being equal, I foresee a greater demand for 5-door hatchback, more so in the longer term. I won't be surprised if Toyota actually launches a 5-door iteration eventually.

chidoro

I think there's a couple of things at work with the lack of adopting five door cars. First, Americans tend to be pretty private individuals. Having things exposed in a car's interior is pretty uncomfortable. People value having a trunk that can contain their items which are out of sight from the public. Second, people sit in traffic with lots of very large vehicles. Even my retired father just purchased a CRV becuase he wanted to sit higher. It was uncomfortable for him to be surrounded by all of these mammoth vehicles. Third, people with families have trouble fitting in the back if there's a car seat present because they are just too narrow. Add a second seat (now that children have to be in some type of seat/booster until about 8 years of age) you can forget about it.

For me, I personally loved this type of car ever since I was able to jam in college stuff in my old '80 datsun 210 wagon some 14 years ago. If something like the fit was around in '92 when I was done w/ school, I'd probably still be in it today. But now that I have a newborn and probably going to have a second w/in the next 2 years, this car's format doesn't fit my criteria any longer.

ateixeira

I had a Chevy Sprint, before the Sprint Metro model came out, and long before they changed the name to Geo Metro.

I think the Fit is similar in size and concept, efficient and practical, but probably a *lot* more refined. My Metro was a tin can, my wife (girlfriend at the tim) refused to ride in it she felt so unsafe.

It did bring me 45mpg during Operation Desert Storm, though, when gas prices spiked.

-juice

dino001

The exposed stuff argument is interesting, but not really true for many hatchbacks, as they often have a folding partition (one that opens up with a trunk. Only wagons do not (they usually have a rolling partition that I never use). SUVs often have no partitions, yet they are purchased in big numbers. Sitting higher and sense of securiy is probably it for people buying SUVs. Whether they really get the security or nor, may and should be dabated.

Now, what puzzles me is the aversion for hatchback/wagons by those who buy sedans. I think it is 99.9% looks. I just do not understand why sedans are considered better-looking? They used to in 80s and 90s, perhaps, where wagons often were afterthoughts, but now IMHO the are some examples of actually better looking wagons than their sedan counterparts (Subaru Impreza, BMW 530, Saab 9-3, Kia Spectra5, Mazda 3). But beauty is in eye of beholder, indeed.

ateixeira

Wagons were damaged by the awful faux-woody big wagons from the 80s. Who did not have parents driving them around in a fake-wood-paneling Olds Custom Cruiser or Ford Uglywagon like the one from the Vacation movies. They just became uncool in pop culture.

Now the van is uncool, with its soccer mom image.

Next I predict the SUV will be seen as uncool, because that's what soccer moms are driving now. What's next? Crossovers I guess?

Whatever is trendy at one point in time will seem dorky in 5 years. Look at all the green paint from the early 90s, yikes. Try re-selling one of those cars today.

-juice

varmint

"And that's not the same feeling I will have in a FIT?"

Right. Read up on it. It's fun to drive, crashworthy, and very spacious inside. I don't think anyone every wrote such things about the Metro.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=109580

ateixeira

The Suzuki Swift GT was fun, but the Metro surely was not.

Mine had a fire-breathing 48 horsepower! To go uphill you had to get out and push.

-juice

varmint

I guess we have to suffer with lower fuel economy since we're getting the engine from the sport version of the Fit. The economy version has a smaller displacement, more economical engine mated to a CVT. The 1.5L we'll see was not tuned for maximum fuel economy and is saddled with a 5AT to suit US tastes.

Since most Americans no longer drive manuals for fuel economy reasons, Honda has been tuning them with short gearing to extract more performance. We've seen at least half a dozen MT Hondas with EPA estimates lower than the AT versions. The Fit is probably geared the same way. The 5MT is for the tuners, not the hypermilers.

nippononly

Yaris will have a rating of 34/40 EPA, sedan and hatch. That is the manual, I pay less attention to automatic ratings which does not surprise you I'm sure! :-)

But I think the automatic in this case is within a point of the manual rating.

ateixeira

But Peter must have had a little too much of the Honda Kool-Aid:

handles corners like a sports sedan

Though it does seem to be closer to the an '89 Civic Si than an '89 Geo Metro.

-juice

nippononly

There IS a new Yaris 5-door, which will be sold in Canada ONLY, here in North America. Too bad.

And both companies are shooting for 50K sales - 50K each for Fit and Yaris.

ateixeira

Smart strategy. If it meets targets, watch the Civic and Accord continue to creep up, each will be in a higher price segment and the lineup will be more complete.

-juice

varmint

If the Fit takes off with the youth, we could see other variants... like a 2 seater named CRX? :shades:

nippononly

I'm sure, 50K is about what the Aveo sold its first year out, right? And it was the volume leader among the subcompacts last year. Of course, many of the Aveo sales were to fleets, which I wouldn't expect for Yaris or Fit, so we will see what we will see....

robertsmx

Selling 50K units would be hardly an issue for Honda or Toyota. As for fleet sales, I suspect Fit will be the typical Honda with no more than 1-2% going to fleet.

nippononly

further down on the sales list, the car that is perhaps the most similar in spec and mission to the Fit, the xA, sold less than 20K units, didn't it?

And the Accent and Rio aren't going anywhere, in fact they are all-new.

So despite all the hoopla in the press over the "explosion" of new models in the B-class segment, I wonder if they won't all have a hard slog to sales success....I hope not, though, as I am a big fan. :-)

robertsmx

Its a Honda... watch.

ateixeira

CRX? Heck yes!

Though the Si is doing well for them, and the sedan will only help.

Still, a CRX would basically OWN the pocket rocket segment, since most of those are $20k and up now.

-juice

varmint

"Its a Honda... watch"

So is the RL.

I think the problem with the xA and Echo before it is essentially that of a boring product. While the xB and tC are both entertaining-looking products, the xA is nothing much to look at. And it also doesn't provide much in terms of utility (the xB does) or performance. Neither did the Echo.

The Fit doesn't have these problems. While the styling is a little dated (last year's themes), it'll still be new to NA buyers. And it was one of the better looking Honda designs of that styling era. And it's got a very good blend of performance and utility.

I do not expect the Fit to break 60K, but it should meet the 40-50K target which Honda has set. In the grand scheme of things, that's not much. But will give Honda another option for young shoppers and anyone who misses the Hondas of old.

anythngbutgm

Heck, the bottom line should benefit greatly. I'd bet the engineering of the thing has been paid for. Bringing the model over here probably took minimal $$$ and should only add to the Market share. Would make a nice little runabout or commuter car.

robertsmx

Honda would need to sell only 2 units of Fit for each RL sold to meet the first year estimate.

Besides, RL did no worse than 1995 Legend did (which a lot of people liked)... perhaps Acura overestimated (but met) one year quota selling about 18K units. Remember, in the first year, Acura estimated 15K units for TSX. That is history. Acura sold 35K units of those last year.

40K units of Fits... at about 1000 dealers, with a price tag of about $13-15K... thats a recipe for wait list.

timothyaw

Hey watch the green paint comment, my 92 Integra GS-R won't like it :P

frieberg44

>

And, only a HUGE SISSY would be caught dead in such a sissified looking puny little runtmobile. Hilarious !! The FIT is being built for high school GIRLS.

fintail

That's kinda how I view big SUVs...just replace the puny with bloated...

stickguy

from what I sqw at the car show, the Fit is a nice package (needs an armrest though). Very roomy. The Yaris was yucky, and I still hate the center mounted guage pod. Too much Echo in that baby.

The best one though) THe Nissan Versa (?). Much nicer looking, and seemed to have a good interior. Not sure about mileage of course.

It wil be interesting to see a comparo test on these three at some point.

Oh, and the Nissan will cover both ends with a 5 door and a 4 door. Even a 6 speed stick I think!

For Honda, the fit can be a huge success with a few tweaks and additions to the model mix (real sport verion (Si?) with a moonroof, and a MPG version).

varmint

"The FIT is being built for high school GIRLS."

Their money is green.

ateixeira

Women influence the majority of purchase decisions nowadays. It would be unwise to ignore them.

Versa does seem interesting, it's a little bigger plus that 6 speed you mentioned.

-juice

ural9982

I have Honda Accord 2003. Couple days ago my Check Engine light was on. But I have not seen any more specific changes. The car was droving perfectly. I delivered my car to the Honda dialer for diagnostics. They took care about it and them told me that during the testing process car computer module was broken and I even could not start the car. They insisted that it was not their fault and the reason is just in poor quality of the module. They wanted me to pay about $700 to replace the module. I am wondering if they told me the truth. If it was possible that the module was broken exactly during the diagnostic procedure and dealership is not responsible for it?

robertsmx

Did you already get it fixed from them? I would take the car to another place, and have them look at it. And before I do that, I might just ensure that the gas cap is locked in place, drive 2-3 days and see if the light goes away.

Check engine light can come up for umpteen reasons. And your car may be under warranty to begin with (there was an "unspoken" 8-year emissions related warranty on Hondas in the late 90s that I knew about, not sure if it still applies but you may want to look at that possibility as well).

ateixeira

I would get Honda corporate involved, is there an 800 number in your owner's manual? Call them up, I doubt they'd be buying this "poor quality of the module" argument.

Whatever broke, broke in the dealer's posession.

-juice

ateixeira

PS For next time, consider buying an ODBII scanner, I got one on Amazon for $105 delivered, and you'd be surprised how many people you can help out. I've used mine about 4 times already, for everything from a misfire, to a loose gas cap, to clearing trouble codes for a couple of friends.

scott1256

and has a great line of cars.

My only concern is whether they are big enough to fund the R&D that will be necessary over the next decade.

Honda and BMW would be a great team.

ateixeira

They have different philosophies, though.

Hondas have been light and efficient, with a focus on specific output (HP/liter) and fuel efficiency. Most of the lineup at least offers a 4 banger and it has a selection of hybrids. They are generally what I'd call user-friendly.

BMW is more focused on road feel and steering feedback, with engines lately getting bigger and bigger. They don't offer a single 4 cylinder in the US, and no hybrid either. In fact they'll probably sell diesels here first. Finally, I'd call them expert-friendly.

-juice

rockylee

Honda and BMW would be a great team.

agree as long as Bangle get's the axe. Honda would need to be in charge of design and R&D. Oh I guess you could let some of the BMW engineers help out with suspension set-ups and maybe some engine techniques.

Rocky

scott1256

One reason I see a BMW/Honda merger succeeding is because each company occupies separate, very successful niches.

anythngbutgm

It would be a hot merger if it did happen. I'd be extatic if it did happen.

varmint

Only here in the US. In the UK, they go head to head in several segments.

scott1256

The US market is where the auto industry makes their money.

In the UK and the rest of Europe BMW could discontinue their 'bare bones' models and leave the value end of the market to Honda.

IMO it would be a winning combo.

ateixeira

But little overlap doesn't necessarily make a good partnership. You can't share much of anything, there are no costs to be saved with a merger.

I guess BMW could source future Mini Cooper engines from Honda, that would make for a fun ride.

Most BMW powertrains are longitudinal, while Hondas are transverse. In-line 6 vs. V6. The list goes on.

This happened with GM and Subaru. Subaru uses boxer engines and longitudinal layouts. GM could not make use of anything, so they just sold a rebadged Impreza as the Saab 9-2x. Subaru refused to sell a TrailBlazer clone (good for them), so they rebadged an Opel Zafira van to sell in Japan as the Traviq.

Both products bombed. The partnership collapsed with neither side ever having benefitted at all from the other.

I don't see Honda or BMW rebadging nowadays, so what would be the benefit?

-juice

scott1256

You make some good points, but there are ways other than platform sharing that this combination could reduce costs and increase profits.

There could be real savings on emissions and safety compliance with the two companies working together. Combining engineering and development staffs would also save a lot.

ateixeira

(I'm playing the role of Devil's Advocate here, to keep this discussion going. I don't mean to be negative, just exploring the possibilities as they come up, so bear with me, OK?)

Safety compliance - perhaps, but again the layout presents some obstacles. The crash structure is significantly different when you have to accomodate a long in-line engine in the bay, vs. a compact transverse engine. The packaging is just so completely different.

Interior layout is also fairly different.

Emissions? I guess Honda could help BMW here, but could they take a blow to their ego like that?

Hybrids are one thing you did not bring up, but isn't BMW partnering with a group that's pursueing a different type of technology? Otherwise they could stand to learn a thing or two from Honda.

I dunno. I just see two different philosophies. Japanese efficiency and high-tech vs. German engineering.

I guess I would find it hard to see BMW allowing Honda to help them, even though they could benefit.

Plus I can't imagine BMW sharing their RWD platforms or steering magic with anyone.

It's not so much that there aren't things they could share, as much as egos getting in the way of doing so.

Put it this way, if they do partner up, I'll drink green beer out of my shoe. That's a promise.

Happy St. Patrick's Day, folks. :shades:

-juice