In order to do so, they need a high revving V8, a serious sport suspension, a short throw 6-speed, and most of all, a RWD based chassis and drivetrain...
And a price tag of more than $60K. BTW, do 550i and E500 come with 6-speed (I assume manual)? And you wish BMW 550i tipped the scale at under 3700 lb.
Not to forget, we could as well go for 4100 lb E55 AMG, right?
Yeah, well I was also taking cost into consideration, and it is pretty clear that Honda is not going to ante up for a RWD platform for a while yet. A point which robert expanded on, I see.
The V-8, I believe, will be supplanted by a V-6 with 100 extra hp from electric motors in a hybrid powertrain. That part is very realistic, and without a lot of added cost. Plus, they could cancel the SH-AWD and power the rear wheels with the electric motors, and accomplish most of the advantage of SH-AWD without a big weight increase. This, they could do soon for the "type-R".
They are the kings of great manual trannys and suspension tuning, so that part goes without saying.
Oh Honda, please do it! Don't let the '00s go by with your biggest accomplishments being CANCELLING the glorious S2000 and NSX, and producing the greatest telecommunications-mobile ever fielded by a car company. Nuttin' exciting about that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I currently own a 96' Dodge Truck and a 98' Mustang. :sick:
I will be in the market for a better used car this spring, and a new one perhaps as early as fall.
I'm think Aurora for my used car. I'm not sure "what" I will buy for my next new one. If I can't find a new car "I Gotta have" then I might snag me a 25th Ann 5.0 5-Speed Ford Mustang 7-Up.
But something smells very fishy here.
What are you trying to say, Rocky you can only like one brand. If Honda had a Union and there cars we equal in american content, that perhaps would be the only brand I'd want to own. If GM doesn't build me a car that I like in the very near future, honestly I might just reconsider Acura once again. However I would have to find a good dealership so I don't have to go through the headache I had with my last expierence.
I doubt very much that a hybrid AWD system like the one you described is going to add less weight than SH-AWD. With 100 hp being provided by electric motors, the vehicle would need some serious battery power to keep it moving.
Yeah, I didn't mean it would add LESS weight, just that the weight increase for the hybrid componentry would be offset by the weight reduction of removing the SH-AWD hardware.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wonder how it would impact weight distribution? Right now, the diff and carbon fiber driveshaft are low in the vehicle, with most of the weight at the rear. Honda's hybrids have been storing the batteries higher up behind the seats. But the electric motors could be pretty much right there at the wheels.
"And a price tag of more than $60K. BTW, do 550i and E500 come with 6-speed (I assume manual)? And you wish BMW 550i tipped the scale at under 3700 lb."
I suspect Acura could fulfill my wish list for $50-55k. But why, in 2006, would you -or anybody else - be fearful of a $60k Acura performance sedan? You are aware, I assume, that the Q45 had a base price of $54,000 and the LS400 a base price of $55,000. IN 1996!! :confuse:
Acura has the engineering ability and propensity to build some very nice sub $35k performance sedans and coupes. the Honda S2000 is a truly world class roadster. If, a decade after Infiniti and Lexus were pumping out RWD semi-performance sedans for $55k, Acura doesn't have the confidence to take on the 550i, shame on them. And shame on any so-called Acura fans that don't encourage it.
The 550i 6-speed comes in at about 3,800 lbs. But BMW's are known to be heavy. And thanks to their suspension engineering, they can carry an extra 100-200 lbs a lot better than most others. Not to mention that the 550i boasts 360 real horsepower, 360 ft-lbs of torque and performance that is damn close to the previous generation M5. Give BMW 4,000 lbs to play with, BMW gives you a 502 horsepower V10 M5 capable of giving my Porsche 911 S a serious run for the money, at least in a straight line. I am not suggesting Acura take on the M5 or even E55. But there is NO quality Japanese alternative to the 550i 6-speed, period. I know, I shopped.
Like I said, Acura has pussyfooted around long enough with the RL. In present form, it doesn't even offer the performance or fun to drive factor of the TL 6-speed. I myself may not have been able to dish out $55k in 1996, but I suspect there is a damn big market for a real Acura performance sedan at that price in 2006. If they just go for it.
The only thing missing out of the current RL are these.
mininum 400 hp. which could be easily done even out of the current engine. I personally think the RL doesn't need a V-8, to compete. They could apply a couple of turbo's and be done. I'd like to see both a 6-speed automatic with paddle shifters, and more importantly a 6-Speed Manuel. :shades: One more thing, I'd like to see in the RL. Ventilated Seats. :surprise:
I wouldn't mind seeing a Type-S or Type-R version where it had deeply bolstered leather seats aka NSX style :shades:
If The TL get's a bump in performance and some how get's SH-AWD, it would be vey hard not to buy one honestly.
I hope GM builds a real sport/lux sedan. We will see in due time.
Interestingly, Toyota has based its AWD hybrid SUVs on front wheel drive models. The rear axle only gets electric power on the RX400H and Highlander hybrids.
I assume, that the Q45 had a base price of $54,000
Do they still sell it?
BTW is the 6-speed in BMW 550i “short throw”?
I do agree that Acura needed, and needs, to be more aggressive with the RL than it has, but in my opinion, more so with styling than anything else. I’m not going to dismiss SH-AWD, or complain about RL almost hitting 4000 lb there are a lot of luxo-cruisers with that kind of heft, and then some.
Yes. :confuse: And even though it's a far cry from a model of success, I'm not sure it doesn't sell close to as many units as the "new" RL.
"BTW is the 6-speed in BMW 550i “short throw”? "
Yes. :confuse:
"I do agree that Acura needed, and needs, to be more aggressive with the RL than it has, but in my opinion, more so with styling than anything else. I’m not going to dismiss SH-AWD, or complain about RL almost hitting 4000 lb there are a lot of luxo-cruisers with that kind of heft, and then some."
Look, let's start out with a simple fact. The new RL sales SUCK. My Acura dealer is also a Mercedes dealer. He sells 3-4 times as many E-classes at an average of $10k+ more than the RL. And that's in a small northeastern town with a struggling economy.
The current RL is not a bad car, at all. But it is just not good enough (i.e. or that much better than the TL) to elicit any passion among EITHER performance OR luxury sedan buyers. You think it should add more do-dads and styling? What the hell is left, Doplar Radar? And you think a (barely) 5-passenger luxo cruiser with a fairly weak 6 cylinder engine weighing 4,000 lbs is ever going to get an enthusiast's blood circulating? Even the mid range 530i comes in at 400+ lbs less and has steering/handling that is three rungs up the ladder - plus a (short throw) 6-speed option.
If the RL were a raving market success, I'd be peeing in the wind with my wish list. But it is a dismal failure of a "flagship", in terms of sales. If BMW didn't limit production, they would outsell the RL two to one with $90,000 M5's.
Give me the reigns and I'll give you a decent Japanese performance sedan and the only real alternative to the 550i 6-speed. You may choose to get an A6, GS430, E-class or something else instead, and that's fine. You are right, there are a lot of hefty stylish "luxo-cruisers" to choose from. But I am willing to put up the keys to my TL and 911 that with my performance oriented changes, I'd generate more sales and profits out of the RL badge than Acura is currently getting.
all the folks that clearly want the RL to be MORE than it is, I think Honda's tentative plan to offer LESS of an RL for a much lower price is probably the better idea. Because they are still not going to be able to put in RWD or a more powerful engine in any kind of near-term timeframe. 5-7 years out, this model had better have a LOT more power at this weight, as well as a truly sporty trim level (handling package), in addition to the SH-AWD, all selling for roughly the same price as today.
In the meantime, an RL without as many doo-dads stickering at $40-42K is a good way to bump up sales for this generation.
Oh yeah, and how about making the next-gen RL more spacious inside than the much-less-expensive TL? THAT would have seemed like a no-brainer to me, but apparently not considering the current model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And even though it's a far cry from a model of success, I'm not sure it doesn't sell close to as many units as the "new" RL
You can be... it doesn't. Not even the "immensely successful" Lexus GS does so, in V8 form. Lexus has sold about 240-250 units of those each month this year. Is that good?
Thanks robert, that one actually caused me to spit out food as I laughed then choked!
I don't think the GS has been "immensely successful" by any measure since at least the mid-90s and maybe longer. At the redesign a year ago, sales bumped up for a little while, much to Toyota officals' collective relief. But if they have declined significantly since then, it doesn't come as much of a surprise. The GS should not be the yardstick that "success" is measured against in the luxury car pool, IMHO.
Now, compare it to the LS, the Lexus flagship, and you might not come away as favorably impressed in terms of sales...
juice: yes, there's a big gap between the two models. Putting in an "entry RL" priced to start around $40K will be a good measure, I think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Lexus LS competes in a different class than Acura has opted RL to compete in... that is more GS territory. And if RL were selling in GS numbers today, I doubt anybody would complain about it.
Of course, reducing the base price might help the Acura in that direction, but then with FF platform, Acura has given up some of that flexibility away since SH-AWD's cost and weight will always play a role. It does surprise me, how price sensitive $45-50K cars are, that we actually talk about chopping a few grand off the price tag to sell in higher numbers.
"You can be... it doesn't. Not even the "immensely successful" Lexus GS does so, in V8 form. Lexus has sold about 240-250 units of those each month this year. Is that good?"
And your point? :confuse:
There are indeed, lot's of other "stylish luxo-cruisers" with unexciting driving dynamics that don't sell particularly well. And that's what you want the RL to emulate??
Since you apparently have the figures, what are the monthly sales for the TL, RL and 5-series. Let's see who comes in third on that list.
Hmmm... with that question, I would assume you already knew what the point was.
Sales... isn't it? 78K for TL in 2005. Thats quite good for a car with two trim (NAV defining one of them) fits all. In case of RL, 18K sold in the first year... well, that barely meets the forecasted sales and since then it has been slower so it MIGHT not with one size fits all strategy.
5-series throws another dimension to the debate... starting with a base price around TL's, and going to almost twice that, while appealing way more to the badge conscious, it better finish second! :P
What I would like to know, however, is breakdown by engine choices... 525/530/550. BMW used to publish numbers with the breakdown, haven't checked back lately.
"In the meantime, an RL without as many doo-dads stickering at $40-42K is a good way to bump up sales for this generation."
They already have an RL without as many do-dads now - it's called a TL and it's $32k not $42k. They even have a $25k version in the Honda Accord V6. And, in spite of Acura's hopeful thinking, the RL's SH-AWD does not distinguish it as a better handling or performing car for the enthusiast - certainly not compared to the TL 6-speed.
The TL competes very effectively with the C-Class, 3-series and ES330, all of which cost as much or more than the TL. The RL does not sell well against the E-class, 5-series or GS/LS in spite of being less expensive.
If they go to $40K from $50K, that is a whopping $10 grand. Hardly chicken feed, even in this class.
Even if they go to $42K, that is $8K, a solid chunk.
But what you are NOT saying which I think relates to this point is that the RL is not a $50K car. AS such, if they strip it down to sell as a $42K car, then it won't be a $42K car, and they will have the same problem. Let's hope they don't pull too much out of there...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
To satisfy the price sensitivity, the best bet Acura would have had is make a larger TL, throw in SH-AWD, and called it a day slapping an RL badge on it. I suspect, such a car would have carried a price tag of around $40-42K.
Bottomline: Acura needs to learn marketing... engineering and focusing on things that are not on the surface (except the "styling"), don't help!
"5-series throws another dimension to the debate... starting with a base price around TL's, and going to almost twice that,"
Better re-check your figures. The base (stripped) price of a entry level 525i is $42,500; even lightly equiped it will come in at $48-$50k. And three years after intorduction, you still won't pick up a 525i at the kind of discounting available on the RL. Meaning that every single model of 5-series is equal to or substantially more expensive than an RL.
And for every "badge conscious" BMW 5 series buyer, I would contend that there are at least 2 or 3 "I'm afraid of German maintenance" buyers that would lean towards Honda/Acura if they produced a decently competitive product.
Case in point - there's this habitat guy out there that bought a Honda S2000 instead of a Boxster and a TL 6-speed instead of a 330i. He's never owned a BMW, but there isn't anything by Acura, Infiniti or Lexus that qualifies as "decent competition" for the 5-series. He won't ever buy a Lexus because they appear genetically linked to Buick and probably not an Infiniti because they seem to have bipolar disorder in their design and engieering department. Maybe that explains why he is pushing Acura to reach higher than a super do-dadded Honda Accord with the RL.
P.S. I'd like to see where all those 18,000 RL's are hiding? They are a hell of a lot more exclusive in my neighborhood than my 911S and even my old S2000. I can guarantee you that I could go into the Tysons Corner shopping mall lot tonight and count 10+ TL's and 5+ 5-series for every RL. If I could even find a single RL.
Better re-check your figures. The base (stripped) price of a entry level 525i is $42,500... I must be living in the past... or basing it off for what one of my colleague paid for one (he didn't care for frills, and paid $38K).
So, where are those 18K RL's hiding? I see a few in my part of Dallas area... and USA is quite a huge country. Unless you find that number unbelievable. Do you? :surprise:
I don't think anyone here thinks Honda's future is solely dependent on the success or failure of the RL. While it might serve as a flagship for the Acura brand, that is a relatively small position in the fleet. And, not to put too fine a point on it, a position which Acura hasn't relied on for more than a decade. Frankly, the MDX is Acura's real flagship.
I accept and agree with many of the above posts, but this is starting to cross the line between discussion and crusade.
"Unless you find that number unbelievable. Do you?"
Not the 18k RL's, but maybe that you have a colleage that paid $38,000 for a new 525i.
I happened to get a call from a sales manager at VOB BMW Maryland after your post, so I ran that by him. His statement - "impossible, never happened" and he's willing to pay $500 for proof of any new (not demo) 2006 525i that was sold by a US dealer for $38,000. He was pretty adamant, and quick to point out:
(1) With absolutely no options, the 525i has a base MSRP of $43,195 and an invoice of $39,550.
(2) VOB sold over 1,800 BMW's last year (3rd/4th largest US dealer), over 700 of which were 5 series and of those, none, zero, nada (0) were no-option cars. He checked the US inventory as of tonight, and there isn't a no option 525i (or 530i) in the entire United States, or enroute.
(3) According to VOB, the only way one could possibly get an absolutely no-option car, would be to special order it. And, at least at VOB, pay a $5,000 non-refundable deposit and get, at most, a $1,000-$1,500 discount to MSRP.
So, if in fact, your colleague did get a new, non-demo, no-option 525i for $1,550 UNDER US invoice, please provide the name of the dealer. I would like nothing more than to take it to VOB and split you the $500. BMW makes nice cars, but those VOB guys are as obnoxious as they come. As if I'm going to trade in my 911S on an M5 with them. Unfortunately, in this case, I'd be very surprised if he isn't correct.
Varmint,
Point taken, and I'll get off my RL as a 550i alternative crusade. But I don't think the MDX (which we also own) is a "flagship". If you just want to go with sales volume, pick the TL.
Didn't mean to pin the crusade on you. I've been a part of the discussions, too.
As for the MDX, I would call it the flagship because it occupied the top slot in the Acura line from 2001 until the new RL was released. Not because it was the top seller. (BMW's top seller is the 3 series, which is the entry level product here in the US.) Rather the MDX has been the most luxurious model that Acura has been known for in recent times.
The next MDX will likely have many of the same luxury features as the RL as well as some unique features of its own. Looking forward a year, this improved MDX could very well take back the flagship position. It does, after all, have a much better reputation than the RL nameplate.
the 38K BMW might be doable if it was a euro delivery zero option car. But, of course I don't have the numbers handy.
COuld also be a little slight of hand on a trade too.
As to RLs, there are 2 in the parking lot at my office, and I think 1 new gen 5 series (maybe 2) that I know of. And 1 solstice, but no S2000s that I can recall.
But I have never been a fan of BMW interiors. I don't like the driving position that much. Added to that is my love for buttons and the I-drive just kills it. That's the best part about the RL to me. It's a button lover's paradise.
I'd change the drive wheels for the next generation, make it AWD or even RWD if you want to take the sales crown for the segment away from BMW. Right now it competes with value and technology, but BMW enjoys the performance halo.
HP is fine. BMW has the best seller with less HP.
And ventilated seats?
The Lincoln Aviator has those, sales still bombed. Buick is also known for those. About all that would do is shift the demographic about 20 years older than it is now.
I doubt either would help much at all, they'd only increase the price and the median age of the buyers.
The Acura TL 6-speed can't handle the horsepower it currently has, thanks to FWD. Adding more to it would be like taking extra vitamin C pills giving you 2000% of the daily dose. You'd just be pissing it away.
The 2004 330i with 225 horsepower I test drove at the time was definitely quicker than the TL, thanks to RWD and no wheel hop. The former 240 hp M3 would leave the TL in the dust. Not to mention that both of those cars are pretty close to 50/50 weight balance and don't have torque steer to deal with.
The TL 6-speed is a nice "sporty" sedan alternative, but it will never be a true sports sedan unless Acura redesigns it completely with a RWD chassis and drivetrain. And if they did, it would execute the G35 in sales, since RWD is that car's ONLY advantage to the TL.
Ventilated seats? I agree with ateixeira - you won't get me on that bandwagon. But remember where I'm coming from. Nearly two years after trading it, I still strongly believe that the absolute best car (relative to it's purpose and competition) to ever come out of Honda/Acura was/is the S2000. The one with no do-dads at all. The one that sold at a premium to MSRP for 2 years after it was introduced (compared to RL's selling at invoice about a month after they got here). In this world of who's got the longer list of do-dads, it is refreshing to know that real ground up advanced engineering still counts for something.
The TL 6-speed is a nice "sporty" sedan alternative, but it will never be a true sports sedan unless Acura redesigns it completely with a RWD chassis and drivetrain. And if they did, it would execute the G35 in sales, since RWD is that car's ONLY advantage to the TL.
Would think that a RWD TL would also cut heavily into BMW3 sales.
No doubt, the RWD TL would outperform the BWM3, both in measured performance and "feel". TL, with FWD albatross, already matches the BMW3 in measured handling according to Edmunds, R&T slalom tests. But, alas, it lacks feel and is not quite right. It might take Honda/Acura a few years to get it right with a RWD, but they would absolutely knock BMW3 off of their pompous perch.
On the other hand, Honda could dethrone BMW3 in first year of RWD TL production, given their initial success with RWD S2000. Also, recall that NSX mid-engine was a knockout right out of the box.
"The TL 6-speed is a nice "sporty" sedan alternative, but it will never be a true sports sedan unless Acura redesigns it completely with a RWD chassis and drivetrain. And if they did, it would execute the G35 in sales, since RWD is that car's ONLY advantage to the TL."
The TL already leads the G35 in sales. By a wide margin last time I checked. In fact, it was leading the 3 series until that car was recently redesigned.
Designing an all new platform for the TL would just raise the costs and decrease the profits for a car that is probably as dominant as it will ever get.
I understand the technical advantages of RWD, but do midsized luxury car drivers actually drive in a way to notice it? I don't see any 5-series drifting through corners in the rain.
I see interior dimensions as more important in that class. The RL fails there too, and I think that hurts it more than its drivetrain.
Like many things (a V8 comes to mind), many people want it because they "know" they do, even if they don't have any practical use for it, or can even tell the difference.
So, while some people can tell the difference, or might even drive hard enough to use the capability, IMO many owners just putt around using 10% of the cars capabilities, and probably don't notice the difference.
One caveat, if you are in the high powered arena, torque steer might be an issue, but again, if you drive like the proverbial grandma, you probably won't notice the difference.
Look at how many people are super happy with their TLs. Think they spend much time mashing the gas from a stop to notice the torque steer?
I don't think RWD versus FWD matters in reality. But then, who cares about reality? If people did, they wouldn't be going for 300 HP, 400 HP or 500 HP cars.
That being said, over one weekend, I have had two of my friends show interest in BMW 3-series, and neither of them care about which wheels are driven (they know it is a "BMW", looks nice... all that matters). One of them was asking me if a 2001 325i with 80K miles was a good deal at $15K. I smiled and said, not to me. I asked what all the car had, and the guy had no clue.
The bottomline is, Acura needs to build an image... not targeting "reality" or else they are always going to be seen as "value priced practical transportation". Leave that aspect to Honda.
With Acura, RL needs to splurge, doing whatever it takes. Luxury "badge" (key word) will require a different philosophy than does a mainstream brand.
It's all about bragging rights. That's why I think a halo model that is a bit more extreme (suspension, engine mods, etc) can really give credibility to a model, even base models without those features.
M3's existence helps sell base 325i automatics, in other words.
a while the posters on these boards were saying Honda lost its mojo. They lost its mojo for awhile because the 01 Civic was not much of an upgrade over the 96 Civic. The interior in the 01 Civic was cheaper than the 96 as well. Also, the Civic lost its double wisbones in the 01 redesign as well. The styling was too bland for some people. I have to say Honda did address the exterior styling issue with the 06 Civic Coupe but the digital guage is a weak point for some buyers with the Civic. I say Honda should just go back to a regular speedometer with the Civic. Finally, they took care of the exterior styling on the coupe but the Sedan still looks very pedestrian to me and it doesn't get my blood boiling like the Coupe does.
Another thing that Honda did wrong with the 03 Accord restyle on the sedan especially. It was very cookie-cutter looking and it scared off alot of buyers. I mean the interior is really good in the current Accord but the exterior styling is so me-too. I'm hoping Honda can make the Accord an eye-catcher like they did the 04 TL. Conservative designs for mid-size cars are very 1990's.
Acura Line: mostly doing well except RL. The MDX is well styled(the current one), The TL is best looking in class and the TSX sells well.
On the quality front: Honda is having some troubles hear. The new Civic is struggling with quality issues amd a few recalls. Honda needs to get with it a little bit but I have confidence in Honda that these quality issues will be addressed. The 01 Civic had its issues as well and Honda was able to get most of the issues of the 01 Civic resolved for the 02 Civic. CR showed a chart in on of their issues in which quality issues dramtically declined for the 02 Civic from the 01 Civic. I should also add I do not like seeing black marks when I look at a chart on CR on a Honda/Acura car. I grew up liking Honda's in the mid 1990's and thats not Honda-like to see black marks for Honda on a reliability chart.
So I sat in the US-Spec model at the NY show and was really impressed.
These have been around for a while in Brazil, in fact I believe they make some there, though the US one will come from Japan. So I'd seen them before, but wanted to see a US-spec model since some things are new, like the side curtain air bags.
Well darn, that thing impressed the heck out of me. They had a Civic next to two Fits, one base and one Sport, and to be honest I think I preferred the Fit. Interior space is simply phenomenal. Tons of leg and head room. It reminded me of the Scion xB, minus the dorky center gauge cluster. And better cargo room.
Very versatile. If they keep a lid on pricing, don't let it creep up any more, then I predict this and the Versa will duke it out in the class. The Yaris falls well behind these two, not nearly as "fun".
I just drove by a gas station in DC, on MacArthur Blvd, where plain ol' regular fuel was $3.189. I'm sure that won't hurt its chances.
It reminds me of the '89 Civic Si, even similar HP and weight.
I can't explain why, but I like this even though I did not like the outgoing Civic Si. Maybe it's the 2 extra doors, or the price. Dunno.
Meaningless comparison - the Fit has a roomier back seat than the Acura RDX.
No dead pedal, no engine temp gauge, and no maplights. I always wonder how much it saves the manufacturer to omit these little seemingly cheap items from a car. Also, it has only a 10.8-gallon gas tank??? I understand that must have been downsized to make it fit where it does, so as to make room for the magic back seat. But that will give the car a real-world range of 300 miles or less in the city (presuming you don't run it bone-dry between fill-ups) - less than optimal, I would say.
I do agree that the Fit rocks its segment in most other ways. I wonder why Honda chose to make this the only model in its entire NA line-up on which a moonroof is unavailable.
My local dealer still can't keep Civics in stock, meanwhile Accord is on bargain sale all over the lot. I'm glad that Honda has not yet given up making Insights and S2000s, despite their very slow sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
You can't have decent execution without at least some ceremony.
And a price tag of more than $60K. BTW, do 550i and E500 come with 6-speed (I assume manual)? And you wish BMW 550i tipped the scale at under 3700 lb.
Not to forget, we could as well go for 4100 lb E55 AMG, right?
The V-8, I believe, will be supplanted by a V-6 with 100 extra hp from electric motors in a hybrid powertrain. That part is very realistic, and without a lot of added cost. Plus, they could cancel the SH-AWD and power the rear wheels with the electric motors, and accomplish most of the advantage of SH-AWD without a big weight increase. This, they could do soon for the "type-R".
They are the kings of great manual trannys and suspension tuning, so that part goes without saying.
Oh Honda, please do it! Don't let the '00s go by with your biggest accomplishments being CANCELLING the glorious S2000 and NSX, and producing the greatest telecommunications-mobile ever fielded by a car company. Nuttin' exciting about that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No I work for the DOE.
http://www.carspace.com/rockylee
proof I did. :P
I currently own a 96' Dodge Truck and a 98' Mustang. :sick:
I will be in the market for a better used car this spring, and a new one perhaps as early as fall.
I'm think Aurora for my used car. I'm not sure "what" I will buy for my next new one. If I can't find a new car
"I Gotta have" then I might snag me a 25th Ann 5.0 5-Speed Ford Mustang 7-Up.
But something smells very fishy here.
What are you trying to say, Rocky you can only like one brand. If Honda had a Union and there cars we equal in american content, that perhaps would be the only brand I'd want to own. If GM doesn't build me a car that I like in the very near future, honestly I might just reconsider Acura once again. However I would have to find a good dealership so I don't have to go through the headache I had with my last expierence.
Rocky
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wonder how it would impact weight distribution? Right now, the diff and carbon fiber driveshaft are low in the vehicle, with most of the weight at the rear. Honda's hybrids have been storing the batteries higher up behind the seats. But the electric motors could be pretty much right there at the wheels.
I suspect Acura could fulfill my wish list for $50-55k. But why, in 2006, would you -or anybody else - be fearful of a $60k Acura performance sedan? You are aware, I assume, that the Q45 had a base price of $54,000 and the LS400 a base price of $55,000. IN 1996!! :confuse:
Acura has the engineering ability and propensity to build some very nice sub $35k performance sedans and coupes. the Honda S2000 is a truly world class roadster. If, a decade after Infiniti and Lexus were pumping out RWD semi-performance sedans for $55k, Acura doesn't have the confidence to take on the 550i, shame on them. And shame on any so-called Acura fans that don't encourage it.
The 550i 6-speed comes in at about 3,800 lbs. But BMW's are known to be heavy. And thanks to their suspension engineering, they can carry an extra 100-200 lbs a lot better than most others. Not to mention that the 550i boasts 360 real horsepower, 360 ft-lbs of torque and performance that is damn close to the previous generation M5. Give BMW 4,000 lbs to play with, BMW gives you a 502 horsepower V10 M5 capable of giving my Porsche 911 S a serious run for the money, at least in a straight line. I am not suggesting Acura take on the M5 or even E55. But there is NO quality Japanese alternative to the 550i 6-speed, period. I know, I shopped.
Like I said, Acura has pussyfooted around long enough with the RL. In present form, it doesn't even offer the performance or fun to drive factor of the TL 6-speed. I myself may not have been able to dish out $55k in 1996, but I suspect there is a damn big market for a real Acura performance sedan at that price in 2006. If they just go for it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
mininum 400 hp. which could be easily done even out of the current engine. I personally think the RL doesn't need a V-8, to compete. They could apply a couple of turbo's and be done.
I wouldn't mind seeing a Type-S or Type-R version where it had deeply bolstered leather seats aka NSX style :shades:
If The TL get's a bump in performance and some how get's SH-AWD, it would be vey hard not to buy one honestly.
I hope GM builds a real sport/lux sedan. We will see in due time.
Rocky
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
Do they still sell it?
BTW is the 6-speed in BMW 550i “short throw”?
I do agree that Acura needed, and needs, to be more aggressive with the RL than it has, but in my opinion, more so with styling than anything else. I’m not going to dismiss SH-AWD, or complain about RL almost hitting 4000 lb there are a lot of luxo-cruisers with that kind of heft, and then some.
Yes. :confuse: And even though it's a far cry from a model of success, I'm not sure it doesn't sell close to as many units as the "new" RL.
"BTW is the 6-speed in BMW 550i “short throw”? "
Yes. :confuse:
"I do agree that Acura needed, and needs, to be more aggressive with the RL than it has, but in my opinion, more so with styling than anything else. I’m not going to dismiss SH-AWD, or complain about RL almost hitting 4000 lb there are a lot of luxo-cruisers with that kind of heft, and then some."
Look, let's start out with a simple fact. The new RL sales SUCK. My Acura dealer is also a Mercedes dealer. He sells 3-4 times as many E-classes at an average of $10k+ more than the RL. And that's in a small northeastern town with a struggling economy.
The current RL is not a bad car, at all. But it is just not good enough (i.e. or that much better than the TL) to elicit any passion among EITHER performance OR luxury sedan buyers. You think it should add more do-dads and styling? What the hell is left, Doplar Radar? And you think a (barely) 5-passenger luxo cruiser with a fairly weak 6 cylinder engine weighing 4,000 lbs is ever going to get an enthusiast's blood circulating? Even the mid range 530i comes in at 400+ lbs less and has steering/handling that is three rungs up the ladder - plus a (short throw) 6-speed option.
If the RL were a raving market success, I'd be peeing in the wind with my wish list. But it is a dismal failure of a "flagship", in terms of sales. If BMW didn't limit production, they would outsell the RL two to one with $90,000 M5's.
Give me the reigns and I'll give you a decent Japanese performance sedan and the only real alternative to the 550i 6-speed. You may choose to get an A6, GS430, E-class or something else instead, and that's fine. You are right, there are a lot of hefty stylish "luxo-cruisers" to choose from. But I am willing to put up the keys to my TL and 911 that with my performance oriented changes, I'd generate more sales and profits out of the RL badge than Acura is currently getting.
In the meantime, an RL without as many doo-dads stickering at $40-42K is a good way to bump up sales for this generation.
Oh yeah, and how about making the next-gen RL more spacious inside than the much-less-expensive TL? THAT would have seemed like a no-brainer to me, but apparently not considering the current model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
You can be... it doesn't. Not even the "immensely successful" Lexus GS does so, in V8 form. Lexus has sold about 240-250 units of those each month this year. Is that good?
I don't think the GS has been "immensely successful" by any measure since at least the mid-90s and maybe longer. At the redesign a year ago, sales bumped up for a little while, much to Toyota officals' collective relief. But if they have declined significantly since then, it doesn't come as much of a surprise. The GS should not be the yardstick that "success" is measured against in the luxury car pool, IMHO.
Now, compare it to the LS, the Lexus flagship, and you might not come away as favorably impressed in terms of sales...
juice: yes, there's a big gap between the two models. Putting in an "entry RL" priced to start around $40K will be a good measure, I think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, reducing the base price might help the Acura in that direction, but then with FF platform, Acura has given up some of that flexibility away since SH-AWD's cost and weight will always play a role. It does surprise me, how price sensitive $45-50K cars are, that we actually talk about chopping a few grand off the price tag to sell in higher numbers.
And your point? :confuse:
There are indeed, lot's of other "stylish luxo-cruisers" with unexciting driving dynamics that don't sell particularly well. And that's what you want the RL to emulate??
Since you apparently have the figures, what are the monthly sales for the TL, RL and 5-series. Let's see who comes in third on that list.
Sales... isn't it? 78K for TL in 2005. Thats quite good for a car with two trim (NAV defining one of them) fits all. In case of RL, 18K sold in the first year... well, that barely meets the forecasted sales and since then it has been slower so it MIGHT not with one size fits all strategy.
5-series throws another dimension to the debate... starting with a base price around TL's, and going to almost twice that, while appealing way more to the badge conscious, it better finish second! :P
What I would like to know, however, is breakdown by engine choices... 525/530/550. BMW used to publish numbers with the breakdown, haven't checked back lately.
They already have an RL without as many do-dads now - it's called a TL and it's $32k not $42k. They even have a $25k version in the Honda Accord V6. And, in spite of Acura's hopeful thinking, the RL's SH-AWD does not distinguish it as a better handling or performing car for the enthusiast - certainly not compared to the TL 6-speed.
The TL competes very effectively with the C-Class, 3-series and ES330, all of which cost as much or more than the TL. The RL does not sell well against the E-class, 5-series or GS/LS in spite of being less expensive.
Check out the best and worst list here: Forbes best and worst
If they go to $40K from $50K, that is a whopping $10 grand. Hardly chicken feed, even in this class.
Even if they go to $42K, that is $8K, a solid chunk.
But what you are NOT saying which I think relates to this point is that the RL is not a $50K car. AS such, if they strip it down to sell as a $42K car, then it won't be a $42K car, and they will have the same problem. Let's hope they don't pull too much out of there...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bottomline: Acura needs to learn marketing... engineering and focusing on things that are not on the surface (except the "styling"), don't help!
Better re-check your figures. The base (stripped) price of a entry level 525i is $42,500; even lightly equiped it will come in at $48-$50k. And three years after intorduction, you still won't pick up a 525i at the kind of discounting available on the RL. Meaning that every single model of 5-series is equal to or substantially more expensive than an RL.
And for every "badge conscious" BMW 5 series buyer, I would contend that there are at least 2 or 3 "I'm afraid of German maintenance" buyers that would lean towards Honda/Acura if they produced a decently competitive product.
Case in point - there's this habitat guy out there that bought a Honda S2000 instead of a Boxster and a TL 6-speed instead of a 330i. He's never owned a BMW, but there isn't anything by Acura, Infiniti or Lexus that qualifies as "decent competition" for the 5-series. He won't ever buy a Lexus because they appear genetically linked to Buick and probably not an Infiniti because they seem to have bipolar disorder in their design and engieering department. Maybe that explains why he is pushing Acura to reach higher than a super do-dadded Honda Accord with the RL.
P.S. I'd like to see where all those 18,000 RL's are hiding? They are a hell of a lot more exclusive in my neighborhood than my 911S and even my old S2000. I can guarantee you that I could go into the Tysons Corner shopping mall lot tonight and count 10+ TL's and 5+ 5-series for every RL. If I could even find a single RL.
I must be living in the past... or basing it off for what one of my colleague paid for one (he didn't care for frills, and paid $38K).
So, where are those 18K RL's hiding? I see a few in my part of Dallas area... and USA is quite a huge country. Unless you find that number unbelievable. Do you? :surprise:
I accept and agree with many of the above posts, but this is starting to cross the line between discussion and crusade.
Not the 18k RL's, but maybe that you have a colleage that paid $38,000 for a new 525i.
I happened to get a call from a sales manager at VOB BMW Maryland after your post, so I ran that by him. His statement - "impossible, never happened" and he's willing to pay $500 for proof of any new (not demo) 2006 525i that was sold by a US dealer for $38,000. He was pretty adamant, and quick to point out:
(1) With absolutely no options, the 525i has a base MSRP of $43,195 and an invoice of $39,550.
(2) VOB sold over 1,800 BMW's last year (3rd/4th largest US dealer), over 700 of which were 5 series and of those, none, zero, nada (0) were no-option cars. He checked the US inventory as of tonight, and there isn't a no option 525i (or 530i) in the entire United States, or enroute.
(3) According to VOB, the only way one could possibly get an absolutely no-option car, would be to special order it. And, at least at VOB, pay a $5,000 non-refundable deposit and get, at most, a $1,000-$1,500 discount to MSRP.
So, if in fact, your colleague did get a new, non-demo, no-option 525i for $1,550 UNDER US invoice, please provide the name of the dealer. I would like nothing more than to take it to VOB and split you the $500. BMW makes nice cars, but those VOB guys are as obnoxious as they come. As if I'm going to trade in my 911S on an M5 with them. Unfortunately, in this case, I'd be very surprised if he isn't correct.
Varmint,
Point taken, and I'll get off my RL as a 550i alternative crusade. But I don't think the MDX (which we also own) is a "flagship". If you just want to go with sales volume, pick the TL.
As for the MDX, I would call it the flagship because it occupied the top slot in the Acura line from 2001 until the new RL was released. Not because it was the top seller. (BMW's top seller is the 3 series, which is the entry level product here in the US.) Rather the MDX has been the most luxurious model that Acura has been known for in recent times.
The next MDX will likely have many of the same luxury features as the RL as well as some unique features of its own. Looking forward a year, this improved MDX could very well take back the flagship position. It does, after all, have a much better reputation than the RL nameplate.
COuld also be a little slight of hand on a trade too.
As to RLs, there are 2 in the parking lot at my office, and I think 1 new gen 5 series (maybe 2) that I know of. And 1 solstice, but no S2000s that I can recall.
Lots of Accords though, but fewer Civic is seems.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
#1 More Horsepower
#2 Ventilated seats.
If this car had both, it would be a better BMW and/or Audi alternative.
Rocky
I'd change the drive wheels for the next generation, make it AWD or even RWD if you want to take the sales crown for the segment away from BMW. Right now it competes with value and technology, but BMW enjoys the performance halo.
HP is fine. BMW has the best seller with less HP.
And ventilated seats?
The Lincoln Aviator has those, sales still bombed. Buick is also known for those. About all that would do is shift the demographic about 20 years older than it is now.
I doubt either would help much at all, they'd only increase the price and the median age of the buyers.
-juice
The 2004 330i with 225 horsepower I test drove at the time was definitely quicker than the TL, thanks to RWD and no wheel hop. The former 240 hp M3 would leave the TL in the dust. Not to mention that both of those cars are pretty close to 50/50 weight balance and don't have torque steer to deal with.
The TL 6-speed is a nice "sporty" sedan alternative, but it will never be a true sports sedan unless Acura redesigns it completely with a RWD chassis and drivetrain. And if they did, it would execute the G35 in sales, since RWD is that car's ONLY advantage to the TL.
Ventilated seats? I agree with ateixeira - you won't get me on that bandwagon. But remember where I'm coming from. Nearly two years after trading it, I still strongly believe that the absolute best car (relative to it's purpose and competition) to ever come out of Honda/Acura was/is the S2000. The one with no do-dads at all. The one that sold at a premium to MSRP for 2 years after it was introduced (compared to RL's selling at invoice about a month after they got here). In this world of who's got the longer list of do-dads, it is refreshing to know that real ground up advanced engineering still counts for something.
I second that motion.
Would think that a RWD TL would also cut heavily into BMW3 sales.
No doubt, the RWD TL would outperform the BWM3, both in measured performance and "feel". TL, with FWD albatross, already matches the BMW3 in measured handling according to Edmunds, R&T slalom tests. But, alas, it lacks feel and is not quite right. It might take Honda/Acura a few years to get it right with a RWD, but they would absolutely knock BMW3 off of their pompous perch.
On the other hand, Honda could dethrone BMW3 in first year of RWD TL production, given their initial success with RWD S2000. Also, recall that NSX mid-engine was a knockout right out of the box.
The TL already leads the G35 in sales. By a wide margin last time I checked. In fact, it was leading the 3 series until that car was recently redesigned.
Designing an all new platform for the TL would just raise the costs and decrease the profits for a car that is probably as dominant as it will ever get.
I will "third" this part, though.
Rocky
-jucie
Rocky
I see interior dimensions as more important in that class. The RL fails there too, and I think that hurts it more than its drivetrain.
So, while some people can tell the difference, or might even drive hard enough to use the capability, IMO many owners just putt around using 10% of the cars capabilities, and probably don't notice the difference.
One caveat, if you are in the high powered arena, torque steer might be an issue, but again, if you drive like the proverbial grandma, you probably won't notice the difference.
Look at how many people are super happy with their TLs. Think they spend much time mashing the gas from a stop to notice the torque steer?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That being said, over one weekend, I have had two of my friends show interest in BMW 3-series, and neither of them care about which wheels are driven (they know it is a "BMW", looks nice... all that matters). One of them was asking me if a 2001 325i with 80K miles was a good deal at $15K. I smiled and said, not to me. I asked what all the car had, and the guy had no clue.
The bottomline is, Acura needs to build an image... not targeting "reality" or else they are always going to be seen as "value priced practical transportation". Leave that aspect to Honda.
With Acura, RL needs to splurge, doing whatever it takes. Luxury "badge" (key word) will require a different philosophy than does a mainstream brand.
M3's existence helps sell base 325i automatics, in other words.
-juice
Another thing that Honda did wrong with the 03 Accord restyle on the sedan especially. It was very cookie-cutter looking and it scared off alot of buyers. I mean the interior is really good in the current Accord but the exterior styling is so me-too. I'm hoping Honda can make the Accord an eye-catcher like they did the 04 TL. Conservative designs for mid-size cars are very 1990's.
Acura Line: mostly doing well except RL. The MDX is well styled(the current one), The TL is best looking in class and the TSX sells well.
On the quality front: Honda is having some troubles hear. The new Civic is struggling with quality issues amd a few recalls. Honda needs to get with it a little bit but I have confidence in Honda that these quality issues will be addressed. The 01 Civic had its issues as well and Honda was able to get most of the issues of the 01 Civic resolved for the 02 Civic. CR showed a chart in on of their issues in which quality issues dramtically declined for the 02 Civic from the 01 Civic. I should also add I do not like seeing black marks when I look at a chart on CR on a Honda/Acura car. I grew up liking Honda's in the mid 1990's and thats not Honda-like to see black marks for Honda on a reliability chart.
These have been around for a while in Brazil, in fact I believe they make some there, though the US one will come from Japan. So I'd seen them before, but wanted to see a US-spec model since some things are new, like the side curtain air bags.
Well darn, that thing impressed the heck out of me. They had a Civic next to two Fits, one base and one Sport, and to be honest I think I preferred the Fit. Interior space is simply phenomenal. Tons of leg and head room. It reminded me of the Scion xB, minus the dorky center gauge cluster. And better cargo room.
Very versatile. If they keep a lid on pricing, don't let it creep up any more, then I predict this and the Versa will duke it out in the class. The Yaris falls well behind these two, not nearly as "fun".
I just drove by a gas station in DC, on MacArthur Blvd, where plain ol' regular fuel was $3.189. I'm sure that won't hurt its chances.
It reminds me of the '89 Civic Si, even similar HP and weight.
I can't explain why, but I like this even though I did not like the outgoing Civic Si. Maybe it's the 2 extra doors, or the price. Dunno.
Meaningless comparison - the Fit has a roomier back seat than the Acura RDX.
-juice
I do agree that the Fit rocks its segment in most other ways. I wonder why Honda chose to make this the only model in its entire NA line-up on which a moonroof is unavailable.
My local dealer still can't keep Civics in stock, meanwhile Accord is on bargain sale all over the lot. I'm glad that Honda has not yet given up making Insights and S2000s, despite their very slow sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)