My cohort for the auto show is giving serious thought to the Fit. Well... as seriously as he considers any car purchase. The combination of utility, price, and fuel economy had him interested. Sitting in the back seat pushed him over the edge.
"My local dealer still can't keep Civics in stock, meanwhile Accord is on bargain sale all over the lot."
Yeah the Civic coupes are very hot cars in New Jersey where I live right now with the young people. The 98-02 Accord's had alot more demand. This generation of Accord didn't see the demand of the previous generation accord. The only time Honda really had to push the last generation Accord out of the showroom's was the last year of it(02) but than again a new Altima and Camry came out for the 02 model year too.
"I'm glad that Honda has not yet given up making Insights and S2000s, despite their very slow sales."
I can't remember the last I saw in an Insight. I wonder if there is going to be a next generation S2000. Its still a cool car even after 6-7 years of being on the market.
Of those 3 omissions, only the lack of a dead pedal would bother me.
I always have a flashlight handy. Or just get one of those key chains you squeeze. Even my BlackBerry will light up bright enough for most needs.
Remember this was not designed for the US, it already existed and was adapted for this market. In markets like Brazil, low cost of ownership is key, especially fuel economy, so they probably wanted to keep it light and (yes) cheap.
10.8 gallons ain't bad, my Miata has about the same capacity and it gets 25/30, so for me it would actually be a big improvement.
Moonroof - aftermarket, baby! Both our hard-topped cars have them.
I hear you - I know lots of people go aftermarket for their moonroofs. I wouldn't do it, but then I'm superstitious! :-P Besides, it is not such a terrible omission on a car with such a high roof. I could live with it.
Now on the gas tank thing I disagree - your Miata is a weekend-tripper, whereas the Fit is supposed to be primary transport for small families and urban youth or whatever. Using the Fit as primary transport, you don't want to be at the gas station every five minutes.
I heard the foot accomodations in the Fit described thus: "there is a carpeted lump on the floor to the left of the pedal". LOL! :-)
As for the maplights, I use them to choose and load CDs in the car in the dark, so a flashlight dangling off the key chain wouldn't really do the trick. Again, something I could live without, but would prefer to have.
In the end, the choice between models very often comes down to how many things the car doesn't have that one "could live without, but would prefer to have"...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The fit would be interesting to me as a vehicle to drive to work in to save gas. I would be in the market for such a car in a few years. It's a neat little car. I have my Integra GS-R and Prelude SH for the REAL fun cars. This would just be about saving gas. But I also think it should have BETTER mileage than 33-38 for this size car?? Maybe the next generation Fit will do better in this department.
TOKYO - Honda more than doubled its net profit for the January-March quarter from a year ago as soaring vehicle sales in Asia and Europe offset a decline in Japan.
Honda Motor Co., Japan's No. 3 automaker that makes the Accord compact car and Odyssey minivan, said Wednesday it racked up 219.5 billion yen ($1.9 billion) in profit for the quarter ended March 31 _ a record quarterly profit for Honda and dramatically higher than the 94 billion yen profit marked the same period the previous year.
Quarterly sales jumped 20.6 percent to 2.83 trillion yen ($24.7 billion) from 2.35 trillion yen the same period last year. Although Honda vehicle sales slipped in Japan, they surged in the rest of Asia and in Europe. They also rose in North America.
The results come a day after Japanese rival Nissan Motor Co. also reported healthy profits _ and mark a contrast with the losses reported by U.S. automakers General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co.
For the fiscal year ended March 31, Honda marked a 22.8 percent rise in profit to 597 billion yen ($5.2 billion) from 486 billion yen in fiscal 2004.
Fiscal 2005 sales totaled 9.91 trillion yen ($86.4 billion), up 14.5 percent from 8.65 trillion yen a year earlier. Both sales and profits were record highs for Tokyo-based Honda.
Adding to the gains were cost-cutting efforts, a weaker yen and a reimbursement related to workers' pension funds in Japan, the company said in a statement.
Honda sold a record 3.39 million vehicles worldwide for the fiscal year just ended, up 4.6 percent from 3.24 million vehicles in fiscal 2004, and the seventh straight year of increased vehicle sales.
Vehicle sales rose 6.8 percent in North America, 9 percent in Europe although they fell 2.2 percent in Japan. They jumped 14.2 percent in other markets.
Koji Endo, auto analyst with Credit Suisse First Boston Securities (Japan) in Tokyo, said Honda faces a challenge in maintaining its momentum for growth in the months ahead, as the rising gas prices hurts sales of trucks and other models in the U.S. that tend to bring in more profits but also use more gasoline. Expectations for a stronger yen is also expected to take a toll on the earnings of Japanese automakers.
"It's going to be a tough year for Honda especially in North America," Endo said. "The results aren't going to be all bad but they aren't going to be all good either."
Honda is forecasting a 550 billion yen ($4.8 billion) profit for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2007, down 7.9 percent from last fiscal year, but sales are expected to rise 7 percent to 10.6 trillion yen ($92.5 billion).
On Tuesday, Nissan reported a 9.4 percent rise in profit for the latest quarter at 152.4 billion yen ($1.3 billion). The company also said it would build a vehicle assembly plant in Russia as part of its global expansion, and forecast a slight profit rise on increased revenue for the current fiscal year.
General Motors cut its losses in the January-March quarter but still lost $323 million, its sixth straight quarterly loss. Last week, Ford said it sank into to a $1.2 billion loss for the same period, a reversal from a $1.2 billion profit the same period a year earlier.
Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's top automaker, reports earnings next month.
Honda shares, which have gained 60 percent in the past year, closed at 7,770 yen ($67.80) in Tokyo, up 0.39 percent, shortly before earnings were announced.
10.8 gallons doesn't sound small at all to me. It sounds like a lot for subcompacts and average for compacts. Its capacity and the car's mileage are similar to mine (a little better), and I refill every week or two.
in mine, I have an 11.9-gallon tank, which enables me to go 400 miles between fill-ups, something I really like about it.
With the same-size tank in the Fit, you would still be able to get around 350 miles between fill-ups. But I find myself nit-picking here, so I will quit! ;-)
BTW, I can't think of a single compact car with less than a 13-gallon capacity for gas, but if I get a dull moment tomorrow, I might go check out a few models to confirm that impression. I don't think 10.8 gallons can be considered average for compacts.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, you win! Looks like I've been left behind by modernity again. I've never put more than nine gallons into one of my family's older compacts, even with the fuel light on.
In other Honda news... the Integra is dead. No more RSX for us. I guess it was bound to happen, but I miss the coupeful days of Civic coupes, Accord coupes, Preludes, Integras, and the other Acura coupes that existed at any one time. The RSX's termination marks the end of Honda hot hatches in the US.
Was getting redundant in the lineup anyway. I hope Acura brings it back, but this time based off TSX. There is no need for Acura to compete with Honda (Si)... knowing that we're also going to see Civic Si sedan soon. That is a "lot" of performance models, offered only with manual transmission around $20-23K.
IMO, RSX should get TSX platform/power train, and may be with a turbo-AWD version placed between TSX and TL.
I heard the foot accomodations in the Fit described thus: "there is a carpeted lump on the floor to the left of the pedal". LOL!
My Hyundai Accent has "a carpeted lump on the floor to the left of the pedal". It is in the right location and has the correct shape and angle for a dead pedal; it simply lacks the slab of pedal-looking plastic to cover the carpet.
All those cars are slotted slightly higher on the car tier than the Fit. So they should have bigger tanks. How about the 20+ gallon one in my LS? Premium only too.
10.8 gallon tank may not be optimum for the US bound Fit. It probably was designed with 1.2-1.3 liter i-DSI engine in mind that are fuel efficient choices and standard in Euro/Japanese models (probably good for mid 40s as opposed to mid 30s with the 1.5 that we get).
Still, smallish gas tank isn’t really going to matter much. But now that Fit has truly gone global, entering Honda’s largest market, the redesign whenever it happens should results in a larger gas tank.
I used to have an Opel Manta with a 10 gallon tank. Since it only got about 20 mpg when I had it (highway yet, and it did have some issues), needless to say range was not good.
No, gee, we were having a separate discussion about compacts cars at that moment. I agree, Fit is a smaller car with a smaller engine, so that a gas tank a bit smaller would normally suffice. Fit's is quite a lot smaller, with about the same combined EPA rating as the Civic, which does have a 13.2-gallon tank.
I am so sad about the demise of the Integra even as I can concede we expected this for a long time, eh? :-(
With no replacement scheduled for the S2000, the NSX's future nebulous at present, and Honda bringing on new large vehicles with wild abandon, I am afraid they are going to evolve into Toyota within a decade. I suuuure hope not.
They want to sell 50,000 Ridgelines a year (and well over 100,000 Odysseys), yet they only want to sell 5000 SI sedans and 15,000 coupes...their flagship Acura is a lux-mobile that is out-sported by their own TL model at a price thousands less......are their priorities changing?
Toyota is good for certain things, Honda for certain others, with not much overlap between them, IMO. I hope it stays that way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
they only want to sell 5000 SI sedans and 15,000 coupes I wonder if there is a larger market, in the longer term, when the only transmission choice will be 6-speed manual. I wouldn't blame Honda for not trying to flood the market with cars that may not appeal to a vast majority of buyers.
S2000 is still around, and I'm sure we will see something interesting out of Honda's secret hat when thge time runs out.
I am hopeful, but I do not share your faith - people said the same thing about the NSX, and then December 2005 rolled around, and fizzle, fizzle, pop - that's all she wrote.
As for manuals only, you have a point on the SIs, but the Integra/RSX was available with an automatic, and since it is now going away and the only car to fill the void will be the SI twins, why not offer one with an automatic as well? All the rest of the engineering is done - this would seem like a no-brainer for Honda.
And yes, all the purists can yell and scream about how the SI has to be manual-only, and I agree to a certain extent, but in terms of the business case, wouldn't it be better in the long run if an available automatic kept Honda more in the sporty game?
WRX has an available automatic, right? It's not unheard of.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But we do know NSX is returning. It has to disappear because it maintained status quo for too long.
Integra/RSX were available with automatic, but only on lesser trims, just like Civic. With Si, the issue wouldn't be any different than it was on Integra GS-R and RSX Type-S... no automatic.
This is a reason I feel Honda should have offered 2.4-liter I-4 in Civic "Sport" (whatever they chose to call it)... a candidate that could have offered power coupled to automatic transmission that most buyers want. Honda doesn't have a automatic that would make sense with a 8000 rpm... it won't be as easy as taking the 5AT out of current RSX and using it in RSX-S or Si.
But then... Honda seems to still prefer purists way, not the "sales way".
Actually, I don't think the Fit would be any family's primary car. It would be the 2nd car, for a family that also had a minivan, wagon, or SUV, or maybe a large sedan. So I do think it would be the car running quick errands and commuting short distances.
Surprisingly, I don't use my Miata on weekends at all, it's mostly a commuter car, because I have kids to cart around on weekends. Small cars are pretty miserable on long trips, too. After 3 hours the Miata feels more like a torture chamber.
Any how, the lack of a dead pedal would be easier to adapt to vs. the Yaris' bizarre instrument panel, for instance. And the Versa is made in Mexico from a company that is having some quality issues right now (Nissan). So I'd have to drive them, but right now I'd lean towards the Fit.
Impreza has a 15.9 gallon tank, but AWD basically offsets that advantage.
Hot hatch is in Europe, the Civic 5 door diesel. Read that blog entry from Straightline, the review was phenomenal. Quick and efficient with that little diesel. Gimme one of those! 0-60 in the 8s and mpg in the 40s, with the same car!
"Actually, I don't think the Fit would be any family's primary car."
Plenty of families have a small car as their primary car. Or their only car. Life in the US doesn't come bundled with a large car or minivan for everyone.
There are also gas stations available every 300 miles, so no Fit owner will die of starvation or exposure because they didn't have an Explorer in the garage.
I agree the Fit won't be an average family car. The average car sells for $26k or something like that, and that alone means the Fit is sub-average. I'm not going to try to justify it against other new or used cars either, that's not my point.
The Fit was designed to be a family vechile (for other markets) and it will work as one here. It's a great all-rounder.
is not a family car in the Us. Its good for somebody who doesn;t drive alot in their 30's or 40's and is single and has an apartment in which they are living in.
The Fit might be a good car for a first car for somebody too because its cheap. You know some girl who is just getting their drivers liscence they might find the Fit "cute clooking" and maybe their parents might buy them one.
TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co.said its fourth-quarter profits more than doubled on higher sales of Civic compact cars in the United States and Fit compacts in Asia.
Net income rose to 220 billion yen ($1.91 billion), in the three months ended March, compared with 94 billion yen a year earlier, the automaker said.
That was in line with the 220 billion yen average estimate of 19 analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial.
Honda had a one-time gain from shifting part of its pension obligations to the government.
President Takeo Fukui, 61, raised Honda's profit forecast in January on surging demand.
Honda, Nissan and Toyota are counting on new models in the United States to boost sales this year.
Rising gasoline prices are driving buyers toward fuel-efficient vehicles.
"Honda has the right models with the right timing in its most profitable market," said Norihito Kanai, an analyst at Meiji Dresdner Asset Management Co. whose firm manages $2.5 billion in equities.
"Its redesigned Civic is doing well in the U.S. and it just released the Fit compact car."
The company expects profit to fall in the current fiscal year by 7.9 percent to 550 billion yen from last year's 597 billion yen because of currency fluctuations and a one-time gain.
"their flagship Acura is a lux-mobile that is out-sported by their own TL model at a price thousands less......are their priorities changing?"
Is that any different than the BMW 5 series and 3 series? Or the GS350 and IS350? I've always been under the impression that the smaller cars (while less expensive) have always been the sportiest of the crop.
I don't think Honda would be doing very well if all they sold were small, sporty hatchback and sedans. As enthusiasts, we tend to glamorize the handling and quality of the old Honda compacts. But I'd never want to get into a crash, listen to the NVH, or ride in the back seat on a long drive.
I think they're better off making their mainstream cars into well-balanced, all-around performers. Then they can make specialty cars like the Si and S2000 to carry the performance torch.
For every enthusiast I've seen complaining about the heft of the new Civic or the styling of the Accord, I've seen another fussing about the lack of utility in the RDX.
I dunno....I would think an M5 would spank an M3. And please, let's not use LEXUS as a frame of reference of any discussion involving sport. But BMW (and Mercedes and Audi to a lesser extent) dedicate a lot of resources to making sporty high-end models.
So now, because Honda decided there was too much crossover between Acura and Honda, I am going to have to beg for a Civic SI, which no dealer can keep in stock due to limited production, and then put up with the dismal sales and service practices of Honda dealers, instead of just picking up an RSX, which were always in plentiful supply and sold by dealers which had at least some idea of how to treat customers. :-(
The thing to do in a move upmarket is to lead with the top of your line and then gradually move the bottom-end up. But the RL was a flop (sales way down, AHC considering emergency shuffles and marketing games to try to revive it this summer). Maybe they could have at least kept a type-S variant of the Integra around for a while longer. With a base price of $24-25K, it would not have cheapened the brand, and probably would have had a decent shot at being the Acura sales leader as the TL aged.
And no, a 2-door TSX will NOT be an acceptable substitute for the RSX! That's what everyone keeps saying, but I think they fundamentally fail to understand what motivates Integra/RSX fans. If they do bring out a 2-door TSX, I predict it will wallow in sales mediocrity just as the CL did.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The M5 probably would best an M3. Certainly in a straight line. But I think the "average" 3 series is sportier than the average 5 series. The same could probably be said of the G and the M from the Infiniti stable. And again with the CTS in Caddy's shack. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
If we're going to outlaw the use of Lexus as an example, that sorta proves my point. Having an uber sport vehicle at the top of the line-up isn't necessarily the only way to do business.
The RL obviously has plenty of problems, I just don't think being out-classed by the TL on a race track is near the top of the list.
I think leading with the top of the line is the best way to go about moving up-market. But I don't think that's practical under the circumstances. Can you imagine how that would work?
"Alright everybody, take all the good stuff out of that concept MDX. Kill the RDX project because that'll compete too closely with the newly decontented MDX. Put everything under the rug until we get a 2nd chance at the RL in 5 years."
They had no idea the RL was going to fail. They have to move forward with what they've got.
(On a related note... For the past 6 years, the MDX has been serving as the top of the market in the Acura stable. It was the most expensive Acura anyone knew about. Looks like it might have to do the same for a while longer.)
I don't think letting the RSX continue with only mild upgrades would benefit the brand. It would only serve as a whipping boy in magazine comparos and drag the image of the brand farther down market. On the other hand, giving it another FMC would have been too costly. And, as for it ever being the sales leader, recent figures don't support the idea. It's short about 50,000 units. IMHO, that's a whole lotta ground to make up.
I think if Acura produces a TSX coupe using the current platform and K24 engine, it will be a very low volume vehicle. While the TSX sedan is fairly sporty, I have no illusions about the bulk of sales going to hard-core enthusiasts. However, if the coupe in question is a "Sports2+2" in line with the concept shown overseas (turbo with SH-AWD), then it could easily become a G35 coupe killer. I agree that Integra/RSX fans will not buy it. But Acura will gain other buyers from BMW, Audi, and Infiniti. Which is the whole point in moving up-market.
I object, your honor! Lexus is not a sport company, while Honda is (or was). Honda seems like the little boy who grew up and lost his way. Their roots are in sport and top-notch engineering. They could pick one or they could pick the other. But they haven't really picked either. Instead, it seems like they have targeted Toyota for the Honda brand, and have somehow decided that Acura should be the new, better Volvo or something.
But I have to pause in any such assessment and acknowledge that both choices have worked well for them in terms of profits. So mine is strictly an enthusiast rant. We are gradually losing one more of the great car companies of the world to the race to the middle of the market.
I have not yet checked as the news is much too new, but I assume that the Integra is NOT going to die in Japan, so a FMC for the RSX would not cost extra. This is strictly a marketing choice, and once again the Americans get shorted in the name of profits and image.
If Honda never goes RWD with the Acura line, as I suspect it won't, it will soon find itself out-competed in the AWD world with Subaru on the one end, Audi on the other, and a healthy dose of competition from Volvo and the like in the middle. That is a world it will get lost in, although I suppose its good rep will carry it for the foreseeable future, so sales are not in jeopardy. But the Honda of old will be gone.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"I don't think Honda would be doing very well if all they sold were small, sporty hatchback and sedans."
That's obviously true, but I also don't think Honda would be doing very well if they hadn't sold all those small, sporty hatchbacks and sedans. Teens loved them, and now they're Honda fans for life as they and their purchases mature.
The generation that was in high school during the '01-'05 Civic isn't going to have the same passion for Honda. They'll be easily swayed towards other marques.
The key to success is to not forget what the market demands. Are there enough teen buyers for companies to focus in that direction? Balanced marketing is the best bet. Offer vehicles that the company can sell in each segment.
Remember the slogan "Precision Crafted Performance"? Acura has moved away from that, slowly but surely, but sells more cars at higher prices with more features to wealthier customers.
Whew. Say that fast 5 times.
Any how, RSX is very much old-school Acura, and doesn't really fit in the new lineup. The TSX coupe has a better chance because coupes are perceived as a lot more premium than hatches.
If Honda/Acura really wants a hot hatch, it would make more sense to label it as a Honda, maybe bring back the Integra name if it's RSX-like, or just bring the euro Civic Si hatch over here.
If anything, they'd probably sell more, not less, plus it could hit the $20-25,000 sweet spot for Sport Compacts.
I agree there is no reason for Honda to abandon the segment they basically created, but those cars should carry the Honda label, not Acura.
I think what Acura is doing (was doing) is simply becoming an upscale Honda. The MDX, TL, RSX, and even TSX can each be viewed as a sportier and more luxurious vehicle for any Honda buyer to step up to. Meanwhile, they each retain some of the strong points from the Honda brand.
The TL is still a decent family sedan and commuter vehicle. Unlike the 3 series which doesn't work with passengers. Yet, the TL has some sport, some flair, and some luxury. It's a step up from an Accord.
The MDX retains decent cargo and passenger capacity, but adds luxury and sport making it a good step up from a Honda utility vehicle.
The same case can be made for the RSX and TSX.
I think they are now moving away from that with the RDX, which appears to be all sport and very little Honda practicality. And I'm not pleased.
RDX is pretty risky for a normally conservative company. A turbo in a segment full of 6s, let's see how they fare. At least they have the MDX to hedge their bets, and they do appeal to very distinct buyers.
I don't share Nippon's fear about using AWD as a way to differentiate themselves from the pack. Sure, Subaru and Audi both use AWD. Volvo is getting into that area, as well.
If that's a problem, then why go RWD? That puts them head to head with BMW, MB, Lexus, Caddy, and Infiniti. Heck, if avoiding the drivetrain designs of the others is a top priority, they're best off staying with FWD!
Carlismo make a good point about attracting the attention of the youth. But I don't think Honda has abandoned that plan. They simply haven't done it as well as they used to. And, quite frankly, I don't think it was intentional when it happened the first time.
Honda has has released youth-oriented cars. The last gen Civic Si had a rally-style, dash-mounted shifter, it was a hatchback with plenty of utility, and had european styling. That's the sort of thing that kids are supposed to like. It's just too bad the styling and motor were lacking.
We are told the youth want something that is bold, stylish, utilitarian, inexpensive, and fun. You can't tell me the Element isn't bold! Unfortunately, it was so inexpensive and full of utility it also garnered the interest of adults.
Now, they are offering the Fit. And who knows if that will sell to youth or grandparents.
So, Honda has been trying to build for the youth. They've just done a crappy job of it, or suffered bad luck in the marketplace.
For all I know, the success Honda had back in the 80's and 90's may simply have been a result of the fact that nobody else was in that market.
They timed this one well...gas nears $4 per just as they launch it.
When I was a kid, right around the 2nd OPEC crisis, I can still vividly remember the Toyota ads for the Tercel. Back then it was around $3000 and probably used 1/3rd the gas of my dad's big Buick.
Kids will remember the Fit ads. They attract attention as it is.
But I disagree, I bet the Si sedan ends up selling quite well.
For instance, Subaru brought the Impreza 2.5RS here in '98 as a coupe only. The next year they offered the sedan, and it immediately became a higher volume model. Since then Subaru actually dropped the coupe and sales have kept growing.
Nothing against you, but man that is the most overused phrase in American car magazines ever... and none of the cars thusly described (Civic Si, Mazda3, Elantra 5-door, etc) look European when you see them in the streets of Europe. I'd like someone to try to explain what the "euro look" is to me. It'd be hard; Germany, France, and Italy have very different design concepts and even the German love of orthogonal boxes is changing.
OK enough soapbox on that.
The previous Civic Si was dorky looking. I kinda liked it, but I'm a dork too. But even I wished the headlights and "mouth" were different (I loved the rest). They brought it over because it was easy for them to do so; I don't think they ever really planned to give us another Si in 2001.
While I'd like the European Civic here too, the new one goes back to Honda's will-look-modern-in-10-years styling, just like the 1992 Civic. It's great, and now's the time to push the coupe and offer something a little bit above it, like another Prelude (not necessarily Prelude-like, but something sporty under the s2000). The Accord coupe's a bit bloated and mature now.
I agree Honda probably stormed the high schools by accident, but it's not in their best interest to just let that go.
They wouldn't be using AWD as a way to differentiate themselves - I know that! In ten years everyone will have AWD models, even the ones that also make RWD cars.
They would be using AWD because power levels have reached the point that no car company can maintain any serious cred with FWD, which by its very nature dulls steering responsiveness and feedback to the driver.
I am sure Honda will be able to maintain its leadership in chassis dynamics once the switch to AWD is made. But you have to ask yourself what will make these H/A's of the future distinctive. Everyone who praises the TL makes a big deal out of its price. "For its price, it offers outstanding feature content and a fun ride". If it cost as much as the 530i and GS350 (competing cars its size), those two would be stealing a lot of its sales. That's fine for making money, but it's not much to celebrate. Will the Acura always have to be the discount special to sell well in its segment? What will happen when/if Audi finally brings its reliability up, Subaru makes a car that finally convinces people to spend more than $30K on a Soob, and Volvo finally hits the sweet spot with sport S60 models? Any of those things could happen in the next few years, indeed odds are pretty good that at least one will. And geez, all that's holding back the G35 from stomping all over the TL is its cheap interior, which Nissan has promised is fixed for the next round. And yes, Infiniti offers an AWD version of the G too.
I dunno. It's a crowded field. Honda has a good name, and enjoyable product. It just seems like they are rushing to embrace the middle market, rather than trying to excel in some way related to engineering or sport, two areas where I THOUGHT their roots were. Image alone cannot support a brand for very long.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
meanwhile Accord is on bargain sale all over the lot."
Yeah the Civic coupes are very hot cars in New Jersey where I live right now with the young people. The 98-02 Accord's had alot more demand. This generation of Accord didn't see the demand of the previous generation accord. The only time Honda really had to push the last generation Accord out of the showroom's was the last year of it(02) but than again a new Altima and Camry came out for the 02 model year too.
"I'm glad that Honda has not yet given up making Insights and S2000s, despite their very slow sales."
I can't remember the last I saw in an Insight. I wonder if there is going to be a next generation S2000. Its still a cool car even after 6-7 years of being on the market.
I always have a flashlight handy. Or just get one of those key chains you squeeze. Even my BlackBerry will light up bright enough for most needs.
Remember this was not designed for the US, it already existed and was adapted for this market. In markets like Brazil, low cost of ownership is key, especially fuel economy, so they probably wanted to keep it light and (yes) cheap.
10.8 gallons ain't bad, my Miata has about the same capacity and it gets 25/30, so for me it would actually be a big improvement.
Moonroof - aftermarket, baby! Both our hard-topped cars have them.
-juice
Besides, it is not such a terrible omission on a car with such a high roof. I could live with it.
Now on the gas tank thing I disagree - your Miata is a weekend-tripper, whereas the Fit is supposed to be primary transport for small families and urban youth or whatever. Using the Fit as primary transport, you don't want to be at the gas station every five minutes.
I heard the foot accomodations in the Fit described thus: "there is a carpeted lump on the floor to the left of the pedal". LOL! :-)
As for the maplights, I use them to choose and load CDs in the car in the dark, so a flashlight dangling off the key chain wouldn't really do the trick. Again, something I could live without, but would prefer to have.
In the end, the choice between models very often comes down to how many things the car doesn't have that one "could live without, but would prefer to have"...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This would just be about saving gas. But I also think it should have BETTER mileage than 33-38 for this size car?? Maybe the next generation Fit will do better in this department.
Honda Motor Co., Japan's No. 3 automaker that makes the Accord compact car and Odyssey minivan, said Wednesday it racked up 219.5 billion yen ($1.9 billion) in profit for the quarter ended March 31 _ a record quarterly profit for Honda and dramatically higher than the 94 billion yen profit marked the same period the previous year.
Quarterly sales jumped 20.6 percent to 2.83 trillion yen ($24.7 billion) from 2.35 trillion yen the same period last year. Although Honda vehicle sales slipped in Japan, they surged in the rest of Asia and in Europe. They also rose in North America.
The results come a day after Japanese rival Nissan Motor Co. also reported healthy profits _ and mark a contrast with the losses reported by U.S. automakers General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co.
For the fiscal year ended March 31, Honda marked a 22.8 percent rise in profit to 597 billion yen ($5.2 billion) from 486 billion yen in fiscal 2004.
Fiscal 2005 sales totaled 9.91 trillion yen ($86.4 billion), up 14.5 percent from 8.65 trillion yen a year earlier. Both sales and profits were record highs for Tokyo-based Honda.
Adding to the gains were cost-cutting efforts, a weaker yen and a reimbursement related to workers' pension funds in Japan, the company said in a statement.
Honda sold a record 3.39 million vehicles worldwide for the fiscal year just ended, up 4.6 percent from 3.24 million vehicles in fiscal 2004, and the seventh straight year of increased vehicle sales.
Vehicle sales rose 6.8 percent in North America, 9 percent in Europe although they fell 2.2 percent in Japan. They jumped 14.2 percent in other markets.
Koji Endo, auto analyst with Credit Suisse First Boston Securities (Japan) in Tokyo, said Honda faces a challenge in maintaining its momentum for growth in the months ahead, as the rising gas prices hurts sales of trucks and other models in the U.S. that tend to bring in more profits but also use more gasoline. Expectations for a stronger yen is also expected to take a toll on the earnings of Japanese automakers.
"It's going to be a tough year for Honda especially in North America," Endo said. "The results aren't going to be all bad but they aren't going to be all good either."
Honda is forecasting a 550 billion yen ($4.8 billion) profit for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2007, down 7.9 percent from last fiscal year, but sales are expected to rise 7 percent to 10.6 trillion yen ($92.5 billion).
On Tuesday, Nissan reported a 9.4 percent rise in profit for the latest quarter at 152.4 billion yen ($1.3 billion). The company also said it would build a vehicle assembly plant in Russia as part of its global expansion, and forecast a slight profit rise on increased revenue for the current fiscal year.
General Motors cut its losses in the January-March quarter but still lost $323 million, its sixth straight quarterly loss. Last week, Ford said it sank into to a $1.2 billion loss for the same period, a reversal from a $1.2 billion profit the same period a year earlier.
Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's top automaker, reports earnings next month.
Honda shares, which have gained 60 percent in the past year, closed at 7,770 yen ($67.80) in Tokyo, up 0.39 percent, shortly before earnings were announced.
Rocky
With the same-size tank in the Fit, you would still be able to get around 350 miles between fill-ups. But I find myself nit-picking here, so I will quit! ;-)
BTW, I can't think of a single compact car with less than a 13-gallon capacity for gas, but if I get a dull moment tomorrow, I might go check out a few models to confirm that impression. I don't think 10.8 gallons can be considered average for compacts.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Civic 13.2 gals
Sentra 13.2 gals
Cobalt 13 gals
Focus 14 gals
Elantra 14.5 gals
OK, so I am having a dull evening, and got curious! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In other Honda news... the Integra is dead. No more RSX for us. I guess it was bound to happen, but I miss the coupeful days of Civic coupes, Accord coupes, Preludes, Integras, and the other Acura coupes that existed at any one time. The RSX's termination marks the end of Honda hot hatches in the US.
I'm not liking the new CR-V spy shots either.
IMO, RSX should get TSX platform/power train, and may be with a turbo-AWD version placed between TSX and TL.
My Hyundai Accent has "a carpeted lump on the floor to the left of the pedal". It is in the right location and has the correct shape and angle for a dead pedal; it simply lacks the slab of pedal-looking plastic to cover the carpet.
Still, smallish gas tank isn’t really going to matter much. But now that Fit has truly gone global, entering Honda’s largest market, the redesign whenever it happens should results in a larger gas tank.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I am so sad about the demise of the Integra even as I can concede we expected this for a long time, eh? :-(
With no replacement scheduled for the S2000, the NSX's future nebulous at present, and Honda bringing on new large vehicles with wild abandon, I am afraid they are going to evolve into Toyota within a decade. I suuuure hope not.
They want to sell 50,000 Ridgelines a year (and well over 100,000 Odysseys), yet they only want to sell 5000 SI sedans and 15,000 coupes...their flagship Acura is a lux-mobile that is out-sported by their own TL model at a price thousands less......are their priorities changing?
Toyota is good for certain things, Honda for certain others, with not much overlap between them, IMO. I hope it stays that way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wonder if there is a larger market, in the longer term, when the only transmission choice will be 6-speed manual. I wouldn't blame Honda for not trying to flood the market with cars that may not appeal to a vast majority of buyers.
S2000 is still around, and I'm sure we will see something interesting out of Honda's secret hat when thge time runs out.
As for manuals only, you have a point on the SIs, but the Integra/RSX was available with an automatic, and since it is now going away and the only car to fill the void will be the SI twins, why not offer one with an automatic as well? All the rest of the engineering is done - this would seem like a no-brainer for Honda.
And yes, all the purists can yell and scream about how the SI has to be manual-only, and I agree to a certain extent, but in terms of the business case, wouldn't it be better in the long run if an available automatic kept Honda more in the sporty game?
WRX has an available automatic, right? It's not unheard of.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Integra/RSX were available with automatic, but only on lesser trims, just like Civic. With Si, the issue wouldn't be any different than it was on Integra GS-R and RSX Type-S... no automatic.
This is a reason I feel Honda should have offered 2.4-liter I-4 in Civic "Sport" (whatever they chose to call it)... a candidate that could have offered power coupled to automatic transmission that most buyers want. Honda doesn't have a automatic that would make sense with a 8000 rpm... it won't be as easy as taking the 5AT out of current RSX and using it in RSX-S or Si.
But then... Honda seems to still prefer purists way, not the "sales way".
Surprisingly, I don't use my Miata on weekends at all, it's mostly a commuter car, because I have kids to cart around on weekends. Small cars are pretty miserable on long trips, too. After 3 hours the Miata feels more like a torture chamber.
Any how, the lack of a dead pedal would be easier to adapt to vs. the Yaris' bizarre instrument panel, for instance. And the Versa is made in Mexico from a company that is having some quality issues right now (Nissan). So I'd have to drive them, but right now I'd lean towards the Fit.
Impreza has a 15.9 gallon tank, but AWD basically offsets that advantage.
Hot hatch is in Europe, the Civic 5 door diesel. Read that blog entry from Straightline, the review was phenomenal. Quick and efficient with that little diesel. Gimme one of those! 0-60 in the 8s and mpg in the 40s, with the same car!
-juice
Plenty of families have a small car as their primary car. Or their only car. Life in the US doesn't come bundled with a large car or minivan for everyone.
There are also gas stations available every 300 miles, so no Fit owner will die of starvation or exposure because they didn't have an Explorer in the garage.
Accords, and to a lesser extent, Civic, are more likely to be a family's primary car. Just look at the sales volumes.
-juice
The Fit was designed to be a family vechile (for other markets) and it will work as one here. It's a great all-rounder.
The Fit might be a good car for a first car for somebody too because its cheap. You know some girl who is just getting their drivers liscence they might find the Fit "cute clooking" and maybe their parents might buy them one.
-juice
Net income rose to 220 billion yen ($1.91 billion), in the three months ended March, compared with 94 billion yen a year earlier, the automaker said.
That was in line with the 220 billion yen average estimate of 19 analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial.
Honda had a one-time gain from shifting part of its pension obligations to the government.
President Takeo Fukui, 61, raised Honda's profit forecast in January on surging demand.
Honda, Nissan and Toyota are counting on new models in the United States to boost sales this year.
Rising gasoline prices are driving buyers toward fuel-efficient vehicles.
"Honda has the right models with the right timing in its most profitable market," said Norihito Kanai, an analyst at Meiji Dresdner Asset Management Co. whose firm manages $2.5 billion in equities.
"Its redesigned Civic is doing well in the U.S. and it just released the Fit compact car."
The company expects profit to fall in the current fiscal year by 7.9 percent to 550 billion yen from last year's 597 billion yen because of currency fluctuations and a one-time gain.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060427/AUTO01/604270362/- 1148/AUTO01
Is that any different than the BMW 5 series and 3 series? Or the GS350 and IS350? I've always been under the impression that the smaller cars (while less expensive) have always been the sportiest of the crop.
I don't think Honda would be doing very well if all they sold were small, sporty hatchback and sedans. As enthusiasts, we tend to glamorize the handling and quality of the old Honda compacts. But I'd never want to get into a crash, listen to the NVH, or ride in the back seat on a long drive.
I think they're better off making their mainstream cars into well-balanced, all-around performers. Then they can make specialty cars like the Si and S2000 to carry the performance torch.
For every enthusiast I've seen complaining about the heft of the new Civic or the styling of the Accord, I've seen another fussing about the lack of utility in the RDX.
So now, because Honda decided there was too much crossover between Acura and Honda, I am going to have to beg for a Civic SI, which no dealer can keep in stock due to limited production, and then put up with the dismal sales and service practices of Honda dealers, instead of just picking up an RSX, which were always in plentiful supply and sold by dealers which had at least some idea of how to treat customers. :-(
The thing to do in a move upmarket is to lead with the top of your line and then gradually move the bottom-end up. But the RL was a flop (sales way down, AHC considering emergency shuffles and marketing games to try to revive it this summer). Maybe they could have at least kept a type-S variant of the Integra around for a while longer. With a base price of $24-25K, it would not have cheapened the brand, and probably would have had a decent shot at being the Acura sales leader as the TL aged.
And no, a 2-door TSX will NOT be an acceptable substitute for the RSX! That's what everyone keeps saying, but I think they fundamentally fail to understand what motivates Integra/RSX fans. If they do bring out a 2-door TSX, I predict it will wallow in sales mediocrity just as the CL did.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not necessarily... having seen an M3 spank an M5 (which, BTW was spanked by Accord Euro-R) in a Best Motoring video around a race track.
If we're going to outlaw the use of Lexus as an example, that sorta proves my point. Having an uber sport vehicle at the top of the line-up isn't necessarily the only way to do business.
The RL obviously has plenty of problems, I just don't think being out-classed by the TL on a race track is near the top of the list.
I think leading with the top of the line is the best way to go about moving up-market. But I don't think that's practical under the circumstances. Can you imagine how that would work?
"Alright everybody, take all the good stuff out of that concept MDX. Kill the RDX project because that'll compete too closely with the newly decontented MDX. Put everything under the rug until we get a 2nd chance at the RL in 5 years."
They had no idea the RL was going to fail. They have to move forward with what they've got.
(On a related note... For the past 6 years, the MDX has been serving as the top of the market in the Acura stable. It was the most expensive Acura anyone knew about. Looks like it might have to do the same for a while longer.)
I don't think letting the RSX continue with only mild upgrades would benefit the brand. It would only serve as a whipping boy in magazine comparos and drag the image of the brand farther down market. On the other hand, giving it another FMC would have been too costly. And, as for it ever being the sales leader, recent figures don't support the idea. It's short about 50,000 units. IMHO, that's a whole lotta ground to make up.
I think if Acura produces a TSX coupe using the current platform and K24 engine, it will be a very low volume vehicle. While the TSX sedan is fairly sporty, I have no illusions about the bulk of sales going to hard-core enthusiasts. However, if the coupe in question is a "Sports2+2" in line with the concept shown overseas (turbo with SH-AWD), then it could easily become a G35 coupe killer. I agree that Integra/RSX fans will not buy it. But Acura will gain other buyers from BMW, Audi, and Infiniti. Which is the whole point in moving up-market.
Any info yet on the next TL ? Like SH-AWD and a more muscular engine ?
If any of ya'll know anything yet about the next RL/TL, post it.
Rocky
But I have to pause in any such assessment and acknowledge that both choices have worked well for them in terms of profits. So mine is strictly an enthusiast rant. We are gradually losing one more of the great car companies of the world to the race to the middle of the market.
I have not yet checked as the news is much too new, but I assume that the Integra is NOT going to die in Japan, so a FMC for the RSX would not cost extra. This is strictly a marketing choice, and once again the Americans get shorted in the name of profits and image.
If Honda never goes RWD with the Acura line, as I suspect it won't, it will soon find itself out-competed in the AWD world with Subaru on the one end, Audi on the other, and a healthy dose of competition from Volvo and the like in the middle. That is a world it will get lost in, although I suppose its good rep will carry it for the foreseeable future, so sales are not in jeopardy. But the Honda of old will be gone.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's obviously true, but I also don't think Honda would be doing very well if they hadn't sold all those small, sporty hatchbacks and sedans. Teens loved them, and now they're Honda fans for life as they and their purchases mature.
The generation that was in high school during the '01-'05 Civic isn't going to have the same passion for Honda. They'll be easily swayed towards other marques.
Whew. Say that fast 5 times.
Any how, RSX is very much old-school Acura, and doesn't really fit in the new lineup. The TSX coupe has a better chance because coupes are perceived as a lot more premium than hatches.
If Honda/Acura really wants a hot hatch, it would make more sense to label it as a Honda, maybe bring back the Integra name if it's RSX-like, or just bring the euro Civic Si hatch over here.
If anything, they'd probably sell more, not less, plus it could hit the $20-25,000 sweet spot for Sport Compacts.
I agree there is no reason for Honda to abandon the segment they basically created, but those cars should carry the Honda label, not Acura.
-juice
That should be the 2nd Si model. It's not too late Honda!
Heck, let Acura have it as a sub-TSX model. That way it would have the luxo goodies I want too!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
-juice
The TL is still a decent family sedan and commuter vehicle. Unlike the 3 series which doesn't work with passengers. Yet, the TL has some sport, some flair, and some luxury. It's a step up from an Accord.
The MDX retains decent cargo and passenger capacity, but adds luxury and sport making it a good step up from a Honda utility vehicle.
The same case can be made for the RSX and TSX.
I think they are now moving away from that with the RDX, which appears to be all sport and very little Honda practicality. And I'm not pleased.
-juice
If that's a problem, then why go RWD? That puts them head to head with BMW, MB, Lexus, Caddy, and Infiniti. Heck, if avoiding the drivetrain designs of the others is a top priority, they're best off staying with FWD!
Honda has has released youth-oriented cars. The last gen Civic Si had a rally-style, dash-mounted shifter, it was a hatchback with plenty of utility, and had european styling. That's the sort of thing that kids are supposed to like. It's just too bad the styling and motor were lacking.
We are told the youth want something that is bold, stylish, utilitarian, inexpensive, and fun. You can't tell me the Element isn't bold! Unfortunately, it was so inexpensive and full of utility it also garnered the interest of adults.
Now, they are offering the Fit. And who knows if that will sell to youth or grandparents.
So, Honda has been trying to build for the youth. They've just done a crappy job of it, or suffered bad luck in the marketplace.
For all I know, the success Honda had back in the 80's and 90's may simply have been a result of the fact that nobody else was in that market.
When I was a kid, right around the 2nd OPEC crisis, I can still vividly remember the Toyota ads for the Tercel. Back then it was around $3000 and probably used 1/3rd the gas of my dad's big Buick.
Kids will remember the Fit ads. They attract attention as it is.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But I disagree, I bet the Si sedan ends up selling quite well.
For instance, Subaru brought the Impreza 2.5RS here in '98 as a coupe only. The next year they offered the sedan, and it immediately became a higher volume model. Since then Subaru actually dropped the coupe and sales have kept growing.
-juice
Nothing against you, but man that is the most overused phrase in American car magazines ever... and none of the cars thusly described (Civic Si, Mazda3, Elantra 5-door, etc) look European when you see them in the streets of Europe. I'd like someone to try to explain what the "euro look" is to me. It'd be hard; Germany, France, and Italy have very different design concepts and even the German love of orthogonal boxes is changing.
OK enough soapbox on that.
The previous Civic Si was dorky looking. I kinda liked it, but I'm a dork too. But even I wished the headlights and "mouth" were different (I loved the rest). They brought it over because it was easy for them to do so; I don't think they ever really planned to give us another Si in 2001.
While I'd like the European Civic here too, the new one goes back to Honda's will-look-modern-in-10-years styling, just like the 1992 Civic. It's great, and now's the time to push the coupe and offer something a little bit above it, like another Prelude (not necessarily Prelude-like, but something sporty under the s2000). The Accord coupe's a bit bloated and mature now.
I agree Honda probably stormed the high schools by accident, but it's not in their best interest to just let that go.
They would be using AWD because power levels have reached the point that no car company can maintain any serious cred with FWD, which by its very nature dulls steering responsiveness and feedback to the driver.
I am sure Honda will be able to maintain its leadership in chassis dynamics once the switch to AWD is made. But you have to ask yourself what will make these H/A's of the future distinctive. Everyone who praises the TL makes a big deal out of its price. "For its price, it offers outstanding feature content and a fun ride". If it cost as much as the 530i and GS350 (competing cars its size), those two would be stealing a lot of its sales. That's fine for making money, but it's not much to celebrate. Will the Acura always have to be the discount special to sell well in its segment? What will happen when/if Audi finally brings its reliability up, Subaru makes a car that finally convinces people to spend more than $30K on a Soob, and Volvo finally hits the sweet spot with sport S60 models? Any of those things could happen in the next few years, indeed odds are pretty good that at least one will. And geez, all that's holding back the G35 from stomping all over the TL is its cheap interior, which Nissan has promised is fixed for the next round. And yes, Infiniti offers an AWD version of the G too.
I dunno. It's a crowded field. Honda has a good name, and enjoyable product. It just seems like they are rushing to embrace the middle market, rather than trying to excel in some way related to engineering or sport, two areas where I THOUGHT their roots were. Image alone cannot support a brand for very long.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)