The Ridgeline's literature states a payload capacity that (follow Honda's asterisks) requires 500 lbs. to be IN THE CAB!
A requirement NO OTHER truck manufacturer uses. SO, subtract 500 lbs. and you have an average ability to haul (at best). Disappointing, but true. :mad:
The Honda trucklet is a lot of things, but a rugged hauler it is not. Sorry to break the news to you. :sick:
I believe all truck manufacturers include the weight in the cab as part of the load rating. My little 94' Nissan states a max load (including occupants) in the manual. Makes sense I would think...
Put 500 lb of stuff and people in the cab... do you think you would carry any more in other trucks than you can in Ridgeline?
Besides, it appears you confused yourself with the way Ridgeline is rated to tow, as opposed to the payload. If you disagree, I would like to see where you get the breaking news item from.
Read the fine print for the Nissan, Toyota, Ford's, and others.
They tell you to reduce the payload for every passenger, accessory, and piece of equipment you load into the vehicle. Obviously, they too are publishing numbers for the maximum payload, not just the bed payload.
If you really want to get persnickety about hauling stuff, look at the rear GAWR for the vehicles. Here are a few examples of crew cabs similar to the Ridgeline.
To take things a step further, read the fine print on towing. Most all the major manufacturers provide towing estimates with only one occupant inside (the driver) and nothing else. For every passenger or piece of luggage, you must reduce the max towing capacity. Honda's published figure include two occupants and 200 lbs of gear.
I think we can say without too much difficulty that Honda's run has not ended. That's been pretty clear for a while.
It's just that they had a period when every new vehicle they added was hot. They still have those vehicles and they are just as hot today. It's just that when you win 3 bouts in 3 years, winning the same record over the next 3 years doesn't seem so hot. Cuz it's already been done.
For example, the new Ody is just as impressive today as the 1999 model was back then. But since we've grown accustomed to the Ody being minivan greatness, it doesn't seem surprising.
Reading one of the posts above made me revisit the original thread to this topic. My very first response was (post#9):
"Did somebody mention a 37% drop in net income? Based on financial report from Honda, it went up 10.8%."
The premise of this thread was around the assumption of 37% drop in net income, whereas in reality it was up by 10.8%. But, then, we have certainly put this thread to proper use with almost 6800 posts in less than two years! That is like 10 posts/day!
than some of the other names because they don't have a full blown(or close) 2 tier lineup like toyota or even nissan. honda has basically no presence in the truck market. that leaves the cars like the civic and accord open to attack from others(lower price alternatives). from what i see, other than the mdx, in my little world, honda owners are not moving up into others in the honda family.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
By comparison... Nissan Light Truck Sales: 504,205 (up 12.6% from 2004) Source - nissannews.com
Honda light truck sales is about 44% of its total sales. If selling 625K units in a year is no presence, a lot of automakers would be considered extinct.
I can see your point. Honda is still short of a complete car and truck lineup. That's true enough, and it does represent a weakness (lack of diversity).
However, they also have a strong presence in motorcycles and power equipment. Plus they're getting into aeronautics. These ventures can help balance things out if the automobile division runs into rough waters.
Even though I agree that this is a weakness, let's put it into perspective. I mean, GM and Ford and staring down the barrel of a loaded shotgun. Consumers just won't buy their products. If I had to pick either over-capacity with a bad reputation or Honda's diversity issue, it's no contest.
maybe i could have phrased my post better. i exclude suv's from light trucks. other brands have a range(broad offerings) rather than a ridge (narrow offering). the cr-v and pilot are at risk too, to lower priced alternatives.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
You're being too selective in your arguments. Simply coming up with personal definition, and points that won't help your cause, or represent any automaker's position in the market, now or in the future in any way.
BTW, what kind of risks are you talking about when it comes to CR-V, and Pilot. I'm curious. Are you assuming Honda wouldn't respond if that were to happen? If market goes smaller and cheaper than CRV... think FRV. Yup, thats thinking globally.
taking risks is the prius, not the ridge. what can honda do if another undercuts the cr-v or pilot? sonata is taking sales from the accord. others can do the same. they are not necessarily smaller than a honda.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I do not have the exact numbers, but Honda posted the greatest year over year INCREASE in sales in Feb 2006 of any of the car companies. I believe that D/C sales were up more than Toyota and Ford and GM were down. Sounds like the end for Honda.
1, Read all the 06 civic posts and how many problems new civic owners have had.
2, futher your studies read on about the ridgeline. one post said "the worst truck I ever bought, if you can call it that"
3,Honda should offer a full line up if the want to stay at the top of their game.
So I want to know how in the world did honda beat toyota? It is quite rare you hear something bad about them.
They sold more cars than GM right They made the new camry engine cost 50% less (passed this on the mrsp to) They make lexus They created scion They Have a great line-up and perfomance editions (TRD)
Why would honda beat them someone please explain this to me? I really think honda is over priced for their vehicles.Soley because they can! Edmunds.com agrees. Read thier review on the civic. ughh
last- If honda continues to create a dash like on the new civic, they are at the end of their game. lol put that on the ridgeline honda boys. oh.... that may be next! hey were your V8 honda? (ridgeline)
Most 05 Civics were made and assembled in Japan and have a ridiculously low problem rate, and extremely great reliability.
the new 06 Civics are made and assembled in the US. It is a 1st year car design, but the initial amount of reported problems (which is only high in a minor way) is due more to Americans assembling them than it is to being a first year model.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Robert's right. You are making selective arguments.
Honda is in trouble because they don't have a full-line (missing big trucks). But then you tell me we should be looking at the global picture (where big trucks are not sold). Then you tell me they should have something like a medium or light duty truck (like the Tacoma or Frontier). But, of course, they have one... it's called the Ridgeline.
Now, I imagine you're going to come back and say something to the effect of, "Well the Ridgeline is stinky". Fine. Ford's minivan is stinky. Chevy's small car is stinky. Dodge's small car is stinky. So is their mid-size. If that's your argument, nobody has a full line.
The first year problems with the Civic are nothing we don't see with every other vehicle in its first months. I believe the Ford Focus still holds the record for most recalls post-release.
As for production... The Civic has been built in the US (Ohio) and Canada (Ontario) for a long time. IIRC, only the last generation Civic Si Hatch (UK) and Civic Hybrid (Japan) were made outside North America.
The notion that Japanese assembly is better than other nations is a myth. Japanese management has had a better grasp of quality control, but the race of the people doing the assembly has nothing to do with it. For example, cars produced at the Swindon UK plant have frequently performed better in UK reliability surveys than the Japanese-built cars from the same company.
The speculation that Hyundai is taking sales away from Honda does not correlate with the facts. I believe this speculation comes from thinking that buyers will either buy American or buy one or the other Japanese imports.
The facts, that others have pointed out, are that Honda sales are increasing, Hyundai sales are increasing, and GM and Ford are further declining.
I think it is far more likely speculation that, as Honda, Toyota, Acura and Lexus, etc., have gone upscale from their humble beginnings in the 60's 70's and 80's, Hyundai and others are backfilling with more affordable offerings and stealing even more market share from the not-so-Big 3.
I remember my father saying in the mid 70's that Honda might be a nice little compact car "for young people", but they sure won't cut into the market for what most American families really want. His other prediction, after Roberto Clemente got a raise to $100,000 - about 10 times the wage for a union carpenter - was that "it's going to get even worse". Well, he was one for two.
I won't predict whetehr Honda or Hyundai will be deemed "most successful" in a decade or two. But I will predict that one or all of the not-so-big 3 will be shadows of their current selfs, which are already shadows of the companies that my Dad was referring to in the 70's.
What you have to remember is Honda is not near the size of Toyota, Nissan, GM, or Ford. They do not have the resources to jump into a segment (ie. full size trucks) and risk the entire companies future. Think back to the original Oddessey they brought over, and compare that to the current version. This is a company that will at first dip its toe in a product segment, watch and learn from the marketplace, then with the next generation be at our near the top of that particular segment. It will be interesting to see what the next generation Ridgeline brings to the party.
Hmmm... so Ridgeline is like any other truck in the market. I would say a whole lot of people would disagree with you on that one, mostly naysayers and that may have included you in the past.
what can honda do if another undercuts the cr-v or pilot?
Hasn't this been true forever? What do you think has Honda done to keep improving its sales?
sonata is taking sales from the accord
Can you prove it. Another fact you might want to consider is fleet sales. No automaker "enjoys" it, they just do it. Based on six month data that I have, 26% of Sonata sales were off fleet sales, compare that to just 3% for Accord.
Besides, did you know the price tag on Sonata jumped by about 10% going from 2005 to 2006?
they are not necessarily smaller than a honda
I'm assuming you're talking about Hyundai here. Well, not too long ago, you though selling 625K units of light trucks was as good as being non-existent. Guess what, Hyundai sold a total of 455K units of cars AND light trucks in the same period.
Not that I find Hyundai to be in trouble, in fact it is doing a darn good job improving and expanding its lineup/sales. I just find your arguments inconsistent, baseless, and extremely opinionated.
"This is a company that will at first dip its toe in a product segment, watch and learn from the marketplace, then with the next generation be at our near the top of that particular segment."
Yes, and no. Honda will watch markets before they jump in, but they don't enter a test product into the market. The first Ody was not them dipping their toes in the pool. It was a vehicle that was never really intended for the US market. It was designed for the Asian markets. They just decided that offering something was better than offering nothing.
Their first american style van was the 1999 Odyssey... not a half-hearted, test-the-waters kind of vehicle. In fact, their first entry into a new market tends to be a good one (Legend, NSX, CR-V, S2000, and MDX). They've had a few misses, but I know of no other company with a better track record for entering new segments.
Now, Toyota, on the other hand. They tend to work their way from a mediocre product to something exceptional. How long has it taken them to get the Tundra right? How many generations of the RAV4 sat on the side line while slightly larger competition stole the market? How many minivans did they develop for this market before getting it right?
Well, I don't think you have to be THE dominant player to have a seat at the table. The Sienna may not be the best van on the marekt, but it's a viable contender.
People have made the claim that Honda does not have a "real" truck on the market. But if you define "real" the way they do, then lots of players are missing "real" vehicles in their line-up. That's the only point I was making.
The first gen Odyssey was an Asian-style van. It's still very highly regarded overseas. Whether you consider it an Accord Wagon or not, is sorta irrelevant. It was never designed to be an American-style van.
Now, the 1999 model was a different story. That was designed for our market. It was the first van designed for our market.
As for the first CR-V, it was no less an SUV than the current model. In many respects it even performs better than the new one. During its first month of sales it surpassed the RAV4 and has never looked back. Before Toyota did the new 2006 RAV4, Honda was selling roughly twice as many CR-Vs as the RAV4. The CR-V also killed the Passport.
3 generations of pickups 3 generations of RAV4s 4 generations of minivans (including the boxy one and the Previa)
-juice
Yeah, lucky for them they have the funds to keep trying. Smaller companies like Honda, Suzuki, Mazda, and Subaru don't have the luxury of being able to miss the market three times before getting it right. Well, I guess Mazda has some help in the form of big daddy Ford.
And I know a lot of this looks like Toyota-bashing, but that's not my point. Toyota has had plenty of ringers, too. I'm just using them as one example. We could just as easily use Ford or GM or VW or even BMW. My point is simply that Honda actually does quite well with first time releases.
Some people just cannot stand seeing Honda come on top with winners. Well, that is just too bad. Both the civics and ridgeline won many awards in 2006, and it bothers you ? Obviously you are a Toyota fan and too bad they did not win, in spite of the fact, that they have many cars, many models etc... Maybe you are cheering for the wrong guy ! I always ask the Toyota's fans - how come only the Lexus model are so much reliable, compared to the rest of the Toyota's line up - if this company Toyota is so good in quality control ? Think about that. We are all suckers and believe the propaganda these companies are putting out. Obviously the answer is - by putting Lexus more reliable they can suck more money out of you - the Toyota believers. Why bash Honda for doing a good job, with much less resources than Toyota, GM, Ford ...etc ? I drove both Honda and Toyota - I don't think the Toyota drive as nice as the Hondas. Toyota is more comfortable (like the big American sedans) that is all. Now, why can't the Toyota make their cars that handle well ? maybe you know the answer. I certainly don't.
that's a lot of rapping on Toyota there. I think it's a bit much to say the early Toyota minivans and RAV missed their mark. The first van was introduced at almost the identical moment the very first Voyager/Carvan were, which is to say, right at the first moment the segment was invented. They sold well, on waiting lists in fact, and anyone who thinks the Chrysler vans were noticeably better than the Toyota ones would interest me if they would explain how, exactly. As for the RAV, it basically created the segment, was very popular each time it was introduced ('96 and '01 models), and was never criticized for being way off the mark. How could it be way off the mark in a segment it created? There wouldn't even be a point of reference.
And you know, the Titan was roundly praised by everyone and their mother, yet in its debut year (rah rah, a new model) the 4-year-old Tundra outsold it. Had to be something good about the Tundra, even if it IS the 7/8ths truck.
As I see it, Honda makes the best driver's cars, and Toyota makes the best comfort-mobiles. Both do what they do very well, and the sales race between them really comes down to how many of each type of buyer there are each year.
varmint: Toyota HAS a low-cost sports car? :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
is that compared to other full line manufacturers, honda corp has a lot of holes in it's lineup. the accord has to compete with the carmy and the avalon. Every brand has it's good ones and it's warts. honda just can't afford many misses and they really need to grow acura due to pressure from the koreans, in the future from others. they are not alone in this situation.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Well, I'm not attempting to grade the vehicles by ranking the vehicles based on how good they are. I think the RAV4 is a great mini SUV. It's just that the bulk of the market moved their offerings into the small SUV category.
When Toyota introduced the RAV4 in 1996, it reinvented the segment. It did quite well in sales. In 1997, Honda introduced the CR-V. The CR-V's chief virtue was that it was larger. In its first month, it outsold the RAV4 which had already spent a year on the market making a name for itself.
Since that time, the RAV4 has never sold more units than the CR-V.
When Toyota remade the RAV4 in 2001, they refined the original concept, but did not change the one thing that held it back... size. So from 2001 through 2005 the CR-V continued to sell better. In fact, Honda sold roughly twice as many units as the RAV4.
This year, Toyota finally fixed the problem. The RAV4 is just about the same size as the CR-V and... lo and behold... they've just sold 11K units. Which about the same sales pace as the CR-V.
It took them 2 models to get the recipe right (for the mass market). Honda got it right with their initial offering.
varmint: Toyota HAS a low-cost sports car?
Corrola S? I guess you could count the tC, but that's more a canvas for styling than a sporty car.
Yeah, and I agree with you on that. Honda doesn't have a great deal of diversity. If one segment is "attacked", Honda has to find other ways to make a profit. They can't shift to trucks or full-size cars.
However, while I agree that is a potential issue, it isn't a problem, yet. Complaining about that while all the full-line manufacturers in this market (excepting Toyota) are going down the pooper is being sorta nit-picky.
2006 Motor Trend car of the year - Civic 2006 Motor Trend Truck of the year - Ridgeline Highest fuel-economy average of any auto co. in America. A leader in 5-star crash test ratings. 2006 ALG Best brand residual value of the year 2006 ALG Best residual value for the mid sized- Accord 2006 ALG Best resudla value for Minivan - Odyssey 2006 Car and DRiver's 10 Best Trucks - Pilot 2006 Car and Driver's 5 best trucks - Odyssey Intellichoice best overall value of the year - Accord Intellichoice best overall value of the year - Civic Intellichoice best overall value of the year - Pilot Intellichoice best overall van of the year - Odyssey 2006 North Am. International Auto show car of the yr-Civic 2006 North AM. International Auto show truck of the yr-Ridgeline.
What else is there to say. Honda is a long way from loosing anything.......
If you look at the entire lineup of trucks from all manufacturers, most wouldn't be considered "real trucks." Very few drivers really need all that horse power and torque. The lighter duty trucks are made for the day-to-day going-to-work-and-back driver who just happens to like trucks, and maybe needs to haul something once in a while. That is Hondas, toyotas, etc target market.
Yeah, but does Ridgeline realy address the needs of those light-duty work commuters who happen to like trucks? Do they need a V-6, 1500-pound payload, 2-ton truck? Most of all, are they eager to spend $30K on their ride, with such light needs for the vehicle? They are buying $18K 4-cylinder extended cab pick-ups from Chevy and Toyota, with all the fixins' they need.
varmint: Oh boy, I hope we are not counting the Corolla XRS as Toyota's sports car - Toyota is in BIG trouble! :-P And the tC? Is about as much a "sports car" as the 4-cylinder Eclipse. Maybe even less. And I kinda like the looks of the Eclipse better. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
The Ridgeline's literature states a payload capacity that (follow Honda's asterisks) requires 500 lbs. to be IN THE CAB!
A requirement NO OTHER truck manufacturer uses. SO, subtract 500 lbs. and you have an average ability to haul (at best). Disappointing, but true. :mad:
The Honda trucklet is a lot of things, but a rugged hauler it is not. Sorry to break the news to you. :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ridgeline
GVWR: 6050 lb
Curb Weight: 4500 lb
Std Payload: 1550 lb
Frontier (LE/Crew Cab/4WD)
GVWR: 5816 lb
Curb Weight: 4451 lb
Std Payload: 1365 lb
Dakota
GVWR: 6010 lb
Curb Weight: 4567 lb
Std Payload: 1390 lb
F150 (XL/Super Cab/4WD)
GVWR: 6950 lb
Curb Weight: 5420 lb
Std Payload: 1530 lb
Put 500 lb of stuff and people in the cab... do you think you would carry any more in other trucks than you can in Ridgeline?
Besides, it appears you confused yourself with the way Ridgeline is rated to tow, as opposed to the payload. If you disagree, I would like to see where you get the breaking news item from.
Subaru got 2 out of 10, not bad for a company with 1% market share, eh?
-juice
Read the fine print for the Nissan, Toyota, Ford's, and others.
They tell you to reduce the payload for every passenger, accessory, and piece of equipment you load into the vehicle. Obviously, they too are publishing numbers for the maximum payload, not just the bed payload.
If you really want to get persnickety about hauling stuff, look at the rear GAWR for the vehicles. Here are a few examples of crew cabs similar to the Ridgeline.
Colorado = 2,896 lbs
Sport Trac = 3,200 lbs
Ridgeline = 3,252 lbs
Frontier = 3,265 lbs
Dakota = 3,600 lbs
To take things a step further, read the fine print on towing. Most all the major manufacturers provide towing estimates with only one occupant inside (the driver) and nothing else. For every passenger or piece of luggage, you must reduce the max towing capacity. Honda's published figure include two occupants and 200 lbs of gear.
The big trucks brag about 10,000 pounds of towing!
And then the fine print says "when equipped with trailer brakes, otherwise the limit is just 1000 lbs".
-juice
The Civic, Accord, Odyssey, and Ridgeline are all listed. Four out of 10 isn't bad.
Also mentioned are too highline models; the Acura TL and Invinity M35. They the Forester, Highlander Hybrid, Prius, and Impreza.
It doesn't sound like Honda is loosing any ground at all.
The title of this post is Has Honda Run out?
Four of the 10 are the Civic, Accord, Odyssey, Ridgeline.
Honda's US sales jumped 14% for the first 2 months of the year. . It doesn't look like there's a problem to me.
-juice
It's just that they had a period when every new vehicle they added was hot. They still have those vehicles and they are just as hot today. It's just that when you win 3 bouts in 3 years, winning the same record over the next 3 years doesn't seem so hot. Cuz it's already been done.
For example, the new Ody is just as impressive today as the 1999 model was back then. But since we've grown accustomed to the Ody being minivan greatness, it doesn't seem surprising.
"Did somebody mention a 37% drop in net income? Based on financial report from Honda, it went up 10.8%."
The premise of this thread was around the assumption of 37% drop in net income, whereas in reality it was up by 10.8%. But, then, we have certainly put this thread to proper use with almost 6800 posts in less than two years! That is like 10 posts/day!
honda has basically no presence in the truck market. that leaves the cars like the civic and accord open to attack from others(lower price alternatives). from what i see, other than the mdx, in my little world, honda owners are not moving up into others in the honda family.
Honda Light Truck Sales:
624,650 (up 13.7% from 2004)
Source - hondanews.com
By comparison...
Nissan Light Truck Sales:
504,205 (up 12.6% from 2004)
Source - nissannews.com
Honda light truck sales is about 44% of its total sales. If selling 625K units in a year is no presence, a lot of automakers would be considered extinct.
However, they also have a strong presence in motorcycles and power equipment. Plus they're getting into aeronautics. These ventures can help balance things out if the automobile division runs into rough waters.
Even though I agree that this is a weakness, let's put it into perspective. I mean, GM and Ford and staring down the barrel of a loaded shotgun. Consumers just won't buy their products. If I had to pick either over-capacity with a bad reputation or Honda's diversity issue, it's no contest.
VW's quality issues or Honda's diversity?
Mitsubishi's finances or Honda's diversity?
i exclude suv's from light trucks.
other brands have a range(broad offerings) rather than a ridge (narrow offering).
the cr-v and pilot are at risk too, to lower priced alternatives.
BTW, what kind of risks are you talking about when it comes to CR-V, and Pilot. I'm curious. Are you assuming Honda wouldn't respond if that were to happen? If market goes smaller and cheaper than CRV... think FRV. Yup, thats thinking globally.
they are not necessarily smaller than a honda.
Sounds like the end for Honda.
That is a stand-out performance. Oh, and Honda overall was up 9%, while Toyota was only up 3%.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2, futher your studies read on about the ridgeline. one post said "the worst truck I ever bought, if you can call it that"
3,Honda should offer a full line up if the want to stay at the top of their game.
So I want to know how in the world did honda beat toyota?
It is quite rare you hear something bad about them.
They sold more cars than GM right
They made the new camry engine cost 50% less (passed this on the mrsp to)
They make lexus
They created scion
They Have a great line-up and perfomance editions (TRD)
Why would honda beat them someone please explain this to me? I really think honda is over priced for their vehicles.Soley because they can! Edmunds.com agrees. Read thier review on the civic. ughh
last- If honda continues to create a dash like on the new civic, they are at the end of their game. lol put that on the ridgeline honda boys. oh.... that may be next! hey were your V8 honda? (ridgeline)
the new 06 Civics are made and assembled in the US. It is a 1st year car design, but the initial amount of reported problems (which is only high in a minor way) is due more to Americans assembling them than it is to being a first year model.
Honda is in trouble because they don't have a full-line (missing big trucks). But then you tell me we should be looking at the global picture (where big trucks are not sold). Then you tell me they should have something like a medium or light duty truck (like the Tacoma or Frontier). But, of course, they have one... it's called the Ridgeline.
Now, I imagine you're going to come back and say something to the effect of, "Well the Ridgeline is stinky". Fine. Ford's minivan is stinky. Chevy's small car is stinky. Dodge's small car is stinky. So is their mid-size. If that's your argument, nobody has a full line.
Keep drawing lines in the sand.
Except Yota?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
As for production... The Civic has been built in the US (Ohio) and Canada (Ontario) for a long time. IIRC, only the last generation Civic Si Hatch (UK) and Civic Hybrid (Japan) were made outside North America.
The notion that Japanese assembly is better than other nations is a myth. Japanese management has had a better grasp of quality control, but the race of the people doing the assembly has nothing to do with it. For example, cars produced at the Swindon UK plant have frequently performed better in UK reliability surveys than the Japanese-built cars from the same company.
The facts, that others have pointed out, are that Honda sales are increasing, Hyundai sales are increasing, and GM and Ford are further declining.
I think it is far more likely speculation that, as Honda, Toyota, Acura and Lexus, etc., have gone upscale from their humble beginnings in the 60's 70's and 80's, Hyundai and others are backfilling with more affordable offerings and stealing even more market share from the not-so-Big 3.
I remember my father saying in the mid 70's that Honda might be a nice little compact car "for young people", but they sure won't cut into the market for what most American families really want. His other prediction, after Roberto Clemente got a raise to $100,000 - about 10 times the wage for a union carpenter - was that "it's going to get even worse". Well, he was one for two.
I won't predict whetehr Honda or Hyundai will be deemed "most successful" in a decade or two. But I will predict that one or all of the not-so-big 3 will be shadows of their current selfs, which are already shadows of the companies that my Dad was referring to in the 70's.
Hmmm... so Ridgeline is like any other truck in the market. I would say a whole lot of people would disagree with you on that one, mostly naysayers and that may have included you in the past.
what can honda do if another undercuts the cr-v or pilot?
Hasn't this been true forever? What do you think has Honda done to keep improving its sales?
sonata is taking sales from the accord
Can you prove it. Another fact you might want to consider is fleet sales. No automaker "enjoys" it, they just do it. Based on six month data that I have, 26% of Sonata sales were off fleet sales, compare that to just 3% for Accord.
Besides, did you know the price tag on Sonata jumped by about 10% going from 2005 to 2006?
they are not necessarily smaller than a honda
I'm assuming you're talking about Hyundai here. Well, not too long ago, you though selling 625K units of light trucks was as good as being non-existent. Guess what, Hyundai sold a total of 455K units of cars AND light trucks in the same period.
Not that I find Hyundai to be in trouble, in fact it is doing a darn good job improving and expanding its lineup/sales. I just find your arguments inconsistent, baseless, and extremely opinionated.
-juice
Yes, and no. Honda will watch markets before they jump in, but they don't enter a test product into the market. The first Ody was not them dipping their toes in the pool. It was a vehicle that was never really intended for the US market. It was designed for the Asian markets. They just decided that offering something was better than offering nothing.
Their first american style van was the 1999 Odyssey... not a half-hearted, test-the-waters kind of vehicle. In fact, their first entry into a new market tends to be a good one (Legend, NSX, CR-V, S2000, and MDX). They've had a few misses, but I know of no other company with a better track record for entering new segments.
Now, Toyota, on the other hand. They tend to work their way from a mediocre product to something exceptional. How long has it taken them to get the Tundra right? How many generations of the RAV4 sat on the side line while slightly larger competition stole the market? How many minivans did they develop for this market before getting it right?
3 generations of pickups
3 generations of RAV4s
4 generations of minivans (including the boxy one and the Previa)
-juice
And the first CR-V was the Civic Wagovan AWD jacked up a few inches.
-juice
People have made the claim that Honda does not have a "real" truck on the market. But if you define "real" the way they do, then lots of players are missing "real" vehicles in their line-up. That's the only point I was making.
Now, the 1999 model was a different story. That was designed for our market. It was the first van designed for our market.
As for the first CR-V, it was no less an SUV than the current model. In many respects it even performs better than the new one. During its first month of sales it surpassed the RAV4 and has never looked back. Before Toyota did the new 2006 RAV4, Honda was selling roughly twice as many CR-Vs as the RAV4. The CR-V also killed the Passport.
3 generations of pickups
3 generations of RAV4s
4 generations of minivans (including the boxy one and the Previa)
-juice
Yeah, lucky for them they have the funds to keep trying. Smaller companies like Honda, Suzuki, Mazda, and Subaru don't have the luxury of being able to miss the market three times before getting it right. Well, I guess Mazda has some help in the form of big daddy Ford.
And I know a lot of this looks like Toyota-bashing, but that's not my point. Toyota has had plenty of ringers, too. I'm just using them as one example. We could just as easily use Ford or GM or VW or even BMW. My point is simply that Honda actually does quite well with first time releases.
I drove both Honda and Toyota - I don't think the Toyota drive as nice as the Hondas. Toyota is more comfortable (like the big American sedans) that is all. Now, why can't the Toyota make their cars that handle well ? maybe you know the answer. I certainly don't.
And you know, the Titan was roundly praised by everyone and their mother, yet in its debut year (rah rah, a new model) the 4-year-old Tundra outsold it. Had to be something good about the Tundra, even if it IS the 7/8ths truck.
As I see it, Honda makes the best driver's cars, and Toyota makes the best comfort-mobiles. Both do what they do very well, and the sales race between them really comes down to how many of each type of buyer there are each year.
varmint: Toyota HAS a low-cost sports car? :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When Toyota introduced the RAV4 in 1996, it reinvented the segment. It did quite well in sales. In 1997, Honda introduced the CR-V. The CR-V's chief virtue was that it was larger. In its first month, it outsold the RAV4 which had already spent a year on the market making a name for itself.
Since that time, the RAV4 has never sold more units than the CR-V.
When Toyota remade the RAV4 in 2001, they refined the original concept, but did not change the one thing that held it back... size. So from 2001 through 2005 the CR-V continued to sell better. In fact, Honda sold roughly twice as many units as the RAV4.
This year, Toyota finally fixed the problem. The RAV4 is just about the same size as the CR-V and... lo and behold... they've just sold 11K units. Which about the same sales pace as the CR-V.
It took them 2 models to get the recipe right (for the mass market). Honda got it right with their initial offering.
varmint: Toyota HAS a low-cost sports car?
Corrola S? I guess you could count the tC, but that's more a canvas for styling than a sporty car.
However, while I agree that is a potential issue, it isn't a problem, yet. Complaining about that while all the full-line manufacturers in this market (excepting Toyota) are going down the pooper is being sorta nit-picky.
2006 Motor Trend Truck of the year - Ridgeline
Highest fuel-economy average of any auto co. in America.
A leader in 5-star crash test ratings.
2006 ALG Best brand residual value of the year
2006 ALG Best residual value for the mid sized- Accord
2006 ALG Best resudla value for Minivan - Odyssey
2006 Car and DRiver's 10 Best Trucks - Pilot
2006 Car and Driver's 5 best trucks - Odyssey
Intellichoice best overall value of the year - Accord
Intellichoice best overall value of the year - Civic
Intellichoice best overall value of the year - Pilot
Intellichoice best overall van of the year - Odyssey
2006 North Am. International Auto show car of the yr-Civic
2006 North AM. International Auto show truck of the yr-Ridgeline.
What else is there to say.
Honda is a long way from loosing anything.......
varmint: Oh boy, I hope we are not counting the Corolla XRS as Toyota's sports car - Toyota is in BIG trouble! :-P
And the tC? Is about as much a "sports car" as the 4-cylinder Eclipse. Maybe even less. And I kinda like the looks of the Eclipse better. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)