Mazda's are great cars, (as are CrV's by the way). Honda needs to step up to the plate with the next Civic, The 3 is the one to beat IMO. I agree with Boaz that on a few level's the current Civic was a "slipup". I think the current Accord sedan will be looked upon a slipup to some as well. Nice car, but more Camry-like than in the past.
just curious on your source of 14% fleet sales for Camry. I had understood it never exceeded 10% in any year.
Corolla fleet sales are half that size, according to Toyota's own press releases in the past. I have nothing recent however.
Since the Matrix is technically the "Corolla Matrix" Toyota rolls the numbers together. This is reasonable since both models are identical mechanically, and one is merely the wagon version of the other. At least I think so. Consider that Honda offers sedan and coupe versions of the Civic and reports the total as the sales number for the Civic. Mazda reports all sales of the 3 together, including the five-door. Isn't this type of thing standard industry practice?
Lastly, part of the reason Honda lost market share is simply that the market is shifting towards big trucks and SUVs, and Honda doesn't have one. So this is not solely the fault of the Civic, LOL! There are some early indications that this shift to trucks has faltered in the last few months as gas prices have risen, then held steady. Who knows what the future holds in that regard.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Do you expect an investigation to be closed without publication of the findings? I hope not. BTW, Toyota Camry fire didn’t seem to have resulted in a recall. Investigation was opened, and closed with published results."
No. And by the same token, I don't expect an investigation to be closed until it's complete. In every other case that has been cited, the root cause(s) of the fires have been understood and revealed. The only one that lacks that crucial information is the report for the CR-V.
"How do we know it is not? We know how it was handled. If NHTSA deviated from its typical process, we should be able to prove that."
You're the one who has demanded that we look at all of these other reports and distill rules from what we see. And if we do this regarding the CR-V report, it's the only one that we've seen that's been closed without determining the root cause of the fires. The Camry investigation was closed with the determination of "no defect", but unlike with the CR-V report, the root causes of the fires were understood.
So to me, based on these other cases, the CR-V investigation fails to live up to the standards of the others because it's the only one that has been closed without an understanding of the root cause of the fires. To me, this is sufficient cause to raise questions about this investigation demonstrating a deviation from their typical process. If this situation is acceptable to you, that's fine. It's not acceptable to me, because to me it indicates insufficient cause to close the investigation. And I don't consider "we couldn't figure it out" to be an acceptable reason for closing it.
"I’m not NHTSA, or a representative of. I’m quoting my observations, and am willing to let authorities and engineers involved do their work and accept their findings. What about you?"
Since the published results deviate so significantly from the other examples that have been cited, and fail to provide the full explanation of the root cause of the fires so that owners can have the peace of mind of knowing this cause, I'm not willing to accept a report that's lacking such key information that every other report we see contains. If you're complacent enough to settle for this incomplete report, proven incomplete by comparing it to other reports on similar problems, that's your call. When this comparison demonstrates such a substantial deviation, you bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to raise questions. Just because you hang on their every word, don't expect everyone else to fall over in awe just because the NHTSA put their stamp of approval on it.
I'm not saying that I know how to do their job better than they do. I'm just saying that the NHTSA has provided the information that I'm requesting when they closed all of these other investigations... so live up to that demonstrated standard of excellence with the CR-V report.
So we're back once again to agreeing to disagree. Although I disagree with your position on this, I agree that you have every right to have that position. And I'm not saying that your position is wrong, it's just one of several possible scenarios. And I just happen to think that the scenario that I propose is a better fit. Say the same to me, instead of expending so much effort in proving me wrong, and we can move on.
Yes, that's right. The 3 wipes the floor with the Civic. No Mazda bashing please; this thread is for Honda bashing.
Ok, time to get serious. Seriously, the current Civic was a mistake when it went through it's re-design. They went the wrong way with it and paid the price with formerly-loyal Honda people deriding it. Mazda stepped up the the plate and hit a home run with the 3 (after their double with the 6, BTW), which is why the Honda lovers here are so hot to bash Mazda. But think of it this way: with Mazda providing such a high bar with the 3 and the 6, it will force Honda to compete, and maybe get back to it's roots (which, IMHO, Mazda has COMPLETELY swiped, that's why all their cars look like they're grinning, hah!).
So now we have a small Japanese car manufacturer treading on the turf of one of the (soon to be former?) dominant car manufacturers. Wait a sec, does this sound a bit FAMILIAR maybe? Like something that happened before? Possibly? This is the reason why Mazda gets mentioned so often, especially when talking about Honda. It's a parallel. Actually more of a cycle. Honda replaced whomever (GM/Ford?), now someone will replace Honda (Probably Mazda in my informed opinion) and then someone will come round to replace Mazda eventually (maybe Subaru). Get over it. Honda had its moment in the sun, but now they're mutating into "just another car manufacturer" unless they can find a unique identity for themselves again.
They used to be the "fun to drive, sporty, reliable, total package guys" but their reliability has taken a hit, and so have the fun to drive and sporty bits. Mazda's eating that market now(though Subaru shares it), and with more eye-catching styling too. They can't sell on fuel economy, because Toyota's pretty much got that sewn up. Ford owns the truck market, GM provides the ho-hum fleet cars and boredom-mobiles, Korea proves the Wal-Mart cars, Volvo's got the whole safety bit, I haven't figured out what Chrysler/Dodge is doing but neither have they, and the Germans are...well...German. 'nuff said.
So what's Honda? Where do they fit in? What's their identity? Because they woke up and found out that the ones they used to have are gone.
The 14% fleet sales (Camry) has been discussed couple of times in the past (alpha and I had been involved in that). I did have a source the first time around, but haven’t looked into it since (I think it was a Bloomberg report). It also listed fleet sales in percentage (and units) by automakers. At the bottom were Honda and Mini with less than 2%.
Regarding the “merger” of Matrix and Corolla: Accord/Civic/Mazda3 etc., sold in coupe/sedan/hatch forms are seen as one model and sales are counted as such. And they are redesigned and tweaked as single model as well.
Until 2003 (MY2004?), Matrix was not included with Corolla. I can only guess but the reason may have been for it to be seen as a completely different model (since Toyota was having tough time convincing young buyers to get into Corolla, and Matrix was supposed to appeal to young crowd). A typical Matrix buyer ended up being 43 year old (only about a year younger than Corolla’s). And with Scion on the horizon (I’ve read that initial plans for Matrix were to move it to Scion brand, but with high average age of buyers, Toyota pulled back), apparently it made sense to combine the sales of Matrix to that of Corolla.
But, does Toyota really see Matrix and Corolla as one model? For sales, it does appear so (for about a year). But the latest commercial I mentioned earlier seems to throw another perspective. Toyota claims offering nine different models that can get 30 mpg of more (EPA highway estimate of course, and select trims). Now, here is a list I came up with, of the nine models: Echo Corolla Matrix Prius Camry Solara Rav4 MR-S Celica
If Corolla and Matrix (or Camry and Solara for that matter) are one model, how do they arrive at nine models? In the end, it doesn’t matter though. Just something that helps throw some light into the marketing aspects.
This wouldn’t be the first time Toyota has combined names of two cars though. My first car, Toyota Supra-Celica, represented one of those times.
To avoid being redundant and long posts (have been guilty of it many times already) I’m going to be very selective in my response to you.
In every other case that has been cited, the root cause(s) of the fires have been understood and revealed. The only one that lacks that crucial information is the report for the CR-V.
I will use your words, instead of making up my own, since they can be used to handle your concern. “the root cause(s) of the fires have been understood and revealed”
If you don’t find a root cause, do you still put one for the sake of it?
You're the one who has demanded that we look at all of these other reports
And I’m happy with the conclusions provided to me. You’re the one yearning for a 100-page document. I’m sure it is available somewhere. Go for it.
I simply arguing with your ideas of how this investigation deviates from others. You seem to know the standards and I assume they are following standards and letting them do their job. Responsibilities should be left where it belongs.
So to me, based on these other cases, the CR-V investigation fails to live up to the standards of the others because it's the only one that has been closed without an understanding of the root cause of the fires. To me, this is sufficient cause to raise questions about this investigation demonstrating a deviation
If the pinched-gasket or stacked-gasket theory isn’t root cause enough for you, what is? You might know better than NHTSA without investigating into the matter, but I’m still going to take the word of the authorities.
"If you don’t find a root cause, do you still put one for the sake of it?
No, you continue looking until you find one. And you don't close the case until you do. Through these other reports, the NHTSA has shown themselves to be very talented at finding such root causes.
Since the NHTSA is responsible for consumer safety, they just don't have the luxury of throwing up their hands and saying "we don't know". They persevere until they DO know. They have to be held to the highest standard of performance, because people can be seriously injured or die if they fail to deliver.
"And I’m happy with the conclusions provided to me. You’re the one yearning for a 100-page document. I’m sure it is available somewhere. Go for it."
I NEVER asked for a 100 page report... you're the one who originally suggested it in a weak attempt to attack my position through exaggeration.
You know all of those reports that you posted as examples? The ones with the 1 paragraph defect descriptions? Every single one of them is exactly what I'm looking for. They all include a description of the problem, the NHTSA's determination of the root cause of the problem, and their conclusion.
And lo and behold, all of this information requires not 100 pages, not even ONE page. Provide the same level of information for the CR-V in exactly the same format and I'm happy as a clam.
"If the pinched-gasket or stacked-gasket theory isn’t root cause enough for you, what is? You might know better than NHTSA without investigating into the matter, but I’m still going to take the word of the authorities."
Once again, for the 10002nd time, the pinched gasket/stacked gasket theory does NOT address the root cause. It describes only what causes the oil leak, not how and why the oil ignites. An oil leak does NOT always cause a fire, but it does in the reported cases for the CR-V. So we need to know why the oil ignites to understand the entire situation, and to conclusively rule out the possibility of a design defect. Every other cited report describes how the ignition occurs.
I don't think I know better than the NHTSA. As I've said before, you don't have to be an automotive expert... you just have to understand the concept of cause and effect, and how their report clearly fails to address that concept. They've established a standard of reporting based on all of these other examples. I'm just asking them to provide consistent information. They have NOT done this with the CR-V. If they fail or refuse to provide this consistent information for the CR-V, as a concerned consumer, I want to know why they're making an exception for this report.
No, you continue looking until you find one. And you don't close the case until you do.
Apparently, that’s not the normal procedure at NHTSA. Go look up at cases that have been closed. Even in Camry, they don’t seem to be bothered by not asking for a recall. Does that mean fires never happened? If you don’t find something, just invent it? I wouldn’t go for it.
"THE CLOSING OF THIS INVESTIGATION DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A FINDING BY NHTSA THAT NO SAFETY-RELATED DEFECT EXISTS. THE AGENCY WILL TAKE FURTHER ACTION IF WARRANTED BY THE CIRCUMSTANCES."
That indicates something to me, if not to you.
Once again, for the 10002nd time, the pinched gasket/stacked gasket theory does NOT address the root cause.
What does? Have you investigated the case and found something that they couldn't?
pressurized, semi-flammable liquid, caused by a human error mistake, hit a 1500-2000 degree heat source - a fire resulted, just like it would in ANY vehicle where the same thing occured.
I've seen it happen, and it's NOT unique to the CRV.
You may have seen another last post from me, but I decided to delete it. I've come, once again, to the conclusion that this disagreement can spin on forever, and further spinning is just pointless. I can't prove one thing to you, and you can't prove one thing to me. So let's stop.
I thought you guys were having a contest for who could have the longest post! I figure this will continue for a while, then Honda will have to issue a retrofit recall or something. I woud guess within one or 2 oil changes....
"Apparently not. One bumper starting on fire and subsequent recall is hardly comparable to the CR-V issue."
Actually when you extrapolate the number of CRV's sold vs. Mazda6. It become almost even.....Okay maybe not....But I just had to have a typical post too.
And Talon and Robert are rather shall we say verbose, nounose, and adjectivose....LOL
last time I'll bother you on this, but Matrix sales have always been reported by Toyota in with the Corolla sales - first model year for Matrix WAS '03.
Some other combo badges of yore: Corolla Tercel, Camry Solara.
You are right - that TV ad talking about nine models over 30 mpg is mostly PR hype/hogwash, and is only just barely the truth. Consider RAV, for instance: the only model with any EPA number over 30 mpg is the 4x2 manual (rated at 25/31). Just try to find one of those anywhere in the whole COUNTRY. The most common configurations are the automatics at 24/29 and 22/27 depending on 4x2 or 4x4.
Fuel economy, BTW, is the one area where the Civic still excels - best in class pretty much. Wonder if they will be able to maintain that AND boost the power for the next gen...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
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...to get people off the whole flame bit and draw them into some nice other heated argument by accusing Honda of not having any identity left, but no one paid attention. Sorry hosts, I guess people are just addicted to the whole CR-V thing.
OK guys well earlier today I had said I was picking up the new CRV tonight...Well I had given the dealer the benifit of a doubt, what a mistake. Actually yesterday we went to go pick up the car and there was still some of the "plastic" on the car after their detailing...we asked them to remove it.... along with a "ding" in the middle of the hood (front middle, white ding against dark blue). Remember Blue Eternal Pearl, gee whiz how good does a ding stand out....Well we went back tonight and not only did they not remove the plastic, they made "dings/white marks" where ever they tried to take the plastic off...then on top of that insult they tried to "wet sand" all the dings out. Gee Whis, just what I want a car with little "sand" marks all over the hood. Needless to say we went to pick up the car and eventually after talking to people (and them saying it is fine) I told them to "get rid of this piece of [non-permissible content removed]", while again, I understand with the Blue eternal Pearl, there will be many(many) dings, I do not expect them upon delivery. We are supposed to go back tomorrow, I keep telling my wife, lets getlost..the dealer had the lame excuse that they had installed leather in it and it is not easy to change it out...I say (for the benifit of this forum) "get lost"! Oh, BTW the loser dealer is Los Gatos Honda (now changed to South Bay Honda) in Los Gatos California. I do admit our salesman is a rather nice "kid" (Michael), albeit it does not help with this kind of crappola! I will let you guys know tomorrow what happens, but as far as I can figure they can't fix the hood without repainting the entire thing....NOT ACCEPTABLE for a brand new car.
I'm convinced driftracer is in the automotive legal community and generally knows what he's talking about, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt unless it's blatant or just unbelievable.
I may not agree with his viewpoints on some matters, but I don't think he's a liar.
I was just wondering why he called another poster who claimed he saw a CR-V spontaneously combust a liar.
BTW, I just decided I have a new girlfriend supermodel I've set up in my new 17 room mansion. I'm driving there to see her now in my just acquired Lambourghini
Wow... the wisdom of the ages, and not a bit pompous at all...
Hey, saugatak, my supermodel girlfriend wants to do lunch with your supermodel girlfriend. Yours can pick the spot... it doesn't matter where, mine can just hop on the Lear...
And would you believe it? I was driving the Maserati home from Jiffy Lube, and just like that, it burst into flames!
If you want to discuss Honda, fine. If you want to discuss the CR-v fires, that's great. But if the subject continues to be each other, this topic will no longer be in play. Consider this post a commercial break. On the other side off this break, no comments on other users are going to be part of this discussion, period. There are at least two other topics in Town Hall where the CR-V fires are being discussed, and if I'm forced to close this one down (which I DON'T want to do) you'll still have a place to go.
Please take advantage of the undocumneted IGNORE feature to avoid "firing back" with personal comments at posts you disagree with.
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After that ugly Paris Hilton incident, I don't think this would be an easy sell...
Besides, I've dated almost all of the currently available supermodels already, so if I make this suggestion and the current one gets mad, I may run out of supermodels.
This problem lies with the dealer and not with Honda. I wold demand they either fix the CRV to your satisfaction or swap it for another car. No excuse for that.
I am not sure of my consumer rights on this. We had done the paperwork "bought the car" (they woudl not put leather in it until we paid for it. Do I have to take this car? Everything happened at that dealer, they said (for the 2nd time) they will make it right, I told them I did not want a repainted front end of a new car. Opinion?
The reason they insisted you pay for the car before installing leather is because they didn't want to get stuck with a maybe hard to sell leather CRV if you backed out of the deal.
You have badmouthed your dealer in this and other forums. I would have to see your car and hear the other side of the story and even then, I would stay out of it.
Sounds like your issues go beyond the condition of the CRV when it was delivered.
I'd say that the contract likely states that you're buying a brand new car in brand-new-car condition, so that's what they have to deliver. If they damaged it, then they're responsible for fixing it, especially since it's YOUR car, not theirs (since you DID in fact, buy it).
Now they MAY choose to do this with a repaint and such, if they have to...but make sure you find out WHERE they're doing it and that it's a quality job.
You may want to e-mail Honda Corporate and let them know what's going on and ask them what your options are.
Well thanks anyway...(I guess). No other issue, my wife loves the car except for issue of it "not looking new". I am not sure of what other issues there may be...just wanted a new car. We will see what happens tonight. May be a very expensive lesson to learn about how to deal with car dealers.
"I'd say that the contract likely states that you're buying a brand new car in brand-new-car condition, so that's what they have to deliver. If they damaged it, then they're responsible for fixing it, especially since it's YOUR car, not theirs (since you DID in fact, buy it)."
A car that has been repainted is not in "brand-new-car" condition. There is NO WAY IN HELL that I'd accept a brand new car that needs paint work.
You signed the paper work for a brand new car. A repainted car or a dented car is not brand new.
I'm shopping for a CR-V, LX, automatic (no side air bags).
Anybody buy an CR-V LX recently and what did you pay (including $490 destination fee)?
Read someplace that Honda never discounts but don't know if that's true. I can't find any info about Honda giving dealers money back on 2004 leftovers.
With the invoice at $18,700 + destination charge, should I expect to be less?
major buying gripe about Honda. They don't help you look for a car if they don't have the one you want. It may be a regional thing but here in our area if you want a red Honda SI and your dealer only has black ones you have to go to another dealer. Now if you have the same problem at Ford or Dodge or Toyota they will make a dealer trade and get you the car from the other dealer. Saturn is the absolute king of this process but that is also the reason they are rated at the to of the buying satisfaction surveys.
My Prelude was delivered to me via "dealer trade". The dealership I visited didn't have one in stock (with manual transmission), but made arrangements within a week.
...my girlfriend wanted the Chevrolet Impala in jade green metallic with the beige interior. The dealership didn't have one but did locate one in New Jersey for her - no hassle.
in 1998-1999 as an F&I guy - we had a huge inventory, but I remember quite a few dealer trades without any issues or arguments if we didn't have the correct model or color.
shopping for Honda earlier this year, the dealer was preparing to make a swap with another dealer until I decided to go with a different car and called them to cancel. They offered, I didn't even have to ask. The RSX I did buy was also a dealer swap because the dealer I bought from didn't have the exact one I wanted.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
in the front of your store, it's ALWAYS better to sell from stock, for many reasons, but losing a deal isn't good, either, unless you have a grinder who'll tank your CSI and you only make $100 - in that case, have them bobst on down the road.
I said it could be regional. The woman that does volunteer work at our local hospital. She wanted a Red CR-V ended up going to five different dealers up to 60 miles apart before she got her car.
I agree a repainted car is not a new car. It should be sold at discount as damaged goods. I don't think a paint shop on the planet can patch up a paint job to factory standard. It would pay the dealer to sell it for a couple thou. discount and go after insurance for the damaged goods.
Well, I am going to look at the damaged CRV AGAIN tonight, "isellhondas" says it all, (and "bowing out"). We will see, I will let you know, they called me today and said they had someone come in and "airbrush it", well if it looks as new that is fine...(although I will make a comment on the pickup slip), but you guys beware of anything "isellhondas says" it is just a add for Hondas...and I even like them. KInd of amazing, he can't defend and he bows out! Again, I will let you know if they make it look even presentable...
I never defended anybody! I wasn't there, I can't see your car.
I am not a representative for Honda or for that dealership. As such, it's prudent for me to simply back out. Others have given you advise.
I know, if I ever have a customer as unhappy as you seem to be I would much rather unwind the deal and move on. I never want a customer to leave unhappy. No sale (for me anyway) is worth that.
After that last post, I'm betting there is another side to this story!
But, yes, your new car should be delivered in undamaged condition. We would ALL agree to that!
may look good in some light. It may look bad in others. It is almost certain to flake off in a few years. Then it is too late to go after the dealer. Unless they will give you a written 5-6 year warranty on the paint, I would flee.
I went back and read your original post. Are the dings in the metal or the paint? I don't see how they can fix that without a complete paint job and Pearl is the hardest to redo. I wanted to get a car I had painted Pearl White, they wanted $4500 to paint it and the body was perfect. You better start over with a new dealer that one should lose their franchise if they are trying to pull a stunt like that. With horror stories like this one I think Honda's run is over and done.
The actions of one dealer do not condemm a company. If the facts are as presented, I have no idea why a dealer would attempt to deliver a car in that condition. Makes no sense.
Once in awhile we will sell a new car AS IS because of some MINOR scratch or ding. Of course, the full warranty applies but the customer gets a discount because of a minor bumper ding or scrape.
A lot of shoppers don't care and sometimes the scratch is so minor we have to point it out to them. This hood deal sounds much worse.
Comments
There, I said something un-perfect about a Honda
Corolla fleet sales are half that size, according to Toyota's own press releases in the past. I have nothing recent however.
Since the Matrix is technically the "Corolla Matrix" Toyota rolls the numbers together. This is reasonable since both models are identical mechanically, and one is merely the wagon version of the other. At least I think so. Consider that Honda offers sedan and coupe versions of the Civic and reports the total as the sales number for the Civic. Mazda reports all sales of the 3 together, including the five-door. Isn't this type of thing standard industry practice?
Lastly, part of the reason Honda lost market share is simply that the market is shifting towards big trucks and SUVs, and Honda doesn't have one. So this is not solely the fault of the Civic, LOL! There are some early indications that this shift to trucks has faltered in the last few months as gas prices have risen, then held steady. Who knows what the future holds in that regard.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No. And by the same token, I don't expect an investigation to be closed until it's complete. In every other case that has been cited, the root cause(s) of the fires have been understood and revealed. The only one that lacks that crucial information is the report for the CR-V.
"How do we know it is not? We know how it was handled. If NHTSA deviated from its typical process, we should be able to prove that."
You're the one who has demanded that we look at all of these other reports and distill rules from what we see. And if we do this regarding the CR-V report, it's the only one that we've seen that's been closed without determining the root cause of the fires. The Camry investigation was closed with the determination of "no defect", but unlike with the CR-V report, the root causes of the fires were understood.
So to me, based on these other cases, the CR-V investigation fails to live up to the standards of the others because it's the only one that has been closed without an understanding of the root cause of the fires. To me, this is sufficient cause to raise questions about this investigation demonstrating a deviation from their typical process. If this situation is acceptable to you, that's fine. It's not acceptable to me, because to me it indicates insufficient cause to close the investigation. And I don't consider "we couldn't figure it out" to be an acceptable reason for closing it.
"I’m not NHTSA, or a representative of. I’m quoting my observations, and am willing to let authorities and engineers involved do their work and accept their findings. What about you?"
Since the published results deviate so significantly from the other examples that have been cited, and fail to provide the full explanation of the root cause of the fires so that owners can have the peace of mind of knowing this cause, I'm not willing to accept a report that's lacking such key information that every other report we see contains. If you're complacent enough to settle for this incomplete report, proven incomplete by comparing it to other reports on similar problems, that's your call. When this comparison demonstrates such a substantial deviation, you bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to raise questions. Just because you hang on their every word, don't expect everyone else to fall over in awe just because the NHTSA put their stamp of approval on it.
I'm not saying that I know how to do their job better than they do. I'm just saying that the NHTSA has provided the information that I'm requesting when they closed all of these other investigations... so live up to that demonstrated standard of excellence with the CR-V report.
So we're back once again to agreeing to disagree. Although I disagree with your position on this, I agree that you have every right to have that position. And I'm not saying that your position is wrong, it's just one of several possible scenarios. And I just happen to think that the scenario that I propose is a better fit. Say the same to me, instead of expending so much effort in proving me wrong, and we can move on.
Ok, time to get serious. Seriously, the current Civic was a mistake when it went through it's re-design. They went the wrong way with it and paid the price with formerly-loyal Honda people deriding it. Mazda stepped up the the plate and hit a home run with the 3 (after their double with the 6, BTW), which is why the Honda lovers here are so hot to bash Mazda.
So now we have a small Japanese car manufacturer treading on the turf of one of the (soon to be former?) dominant car manufacturers. Wait a sec, does this sound a bit FAMILIAR maybe?
They used to be the "fun to drive, sporty, reliable, total package guys" but their reliability has taken a hit, and so have the fun to drive and sporty bits. Mazda's eating that market now(though Subaru shares it), and with more eye-catching styling too. They can't sell on fuel economy, because Toyota's pretty much got that sewn up. Ford owns the truck market, GM provides the ho-hum fleet cars and boredom-mobiles, Korea proves the Wal-Mart cars, Volvo's got the whole safety bit, I haven't figured out what Chrysler/Dodge is doing but neither have they, and the Germans are...well...German. 'nuff said.
So what's Honda? Where do they fit in? What's their identity? Because they woke up and found out that the ones they used to have are gone.
Regarding the “merger” of Matrix and Corolla: Accord/Civic/Mazda3 etc., sold in coupe/sedan/hatch forms are seen as one model and sales are counted as such. And they are redesigned and tweaked as single model as well.
Until 2003 (MY2004?), Matrix was not included with Corolla. I can only guess but the reason may have been for it to be seen as a completely different model (since Toyota was having tough time convincing young buyers to get into Corolla, and Matrix was supposed to appeal to young crowd). A typical Matrix buyer ended up being 43 year old (only about a year younger than Corolla’s). And with Scion on the horizon (I’ve read that initial plans for Matrix were to move it to Scion brand, but with high average age of buyers, Toyota pulled back), apparently it made sense to combine the sales of Matrix to that of Corolla.
But, does Toyota really see Matrix and Corolla as one model? For sales, it does appear so (for about a year). But the latest commercial I mentioned earlier seems to throw another perspective. Toyota claims offering nine different models that can get 30 mpg of more (EPA highway estimate of course, and select trims). Now, here is a list I came up with, of the nine models:
Echo
Corolla
Matrix
Prius
Camry
Solara
Rav4
MR-S
Celica
If Corolla and Matrix (or Camry and Solara for that matter) are one model, how do they arrive at nine models? In the end, it doesn’t matter though. Just something that helps throw some light into the marketing aspects.
This wouldn’t be the first time Toyota has combined names of two cars though. My first car, Toyota Supra-Celica, represented one of those times.
In every other case that has been cited, the root cause(s) of the fires have been understood and revealed. The only one that lacks that crucial information is the report for the CR-V.
I will use your words, instead of making up my own, since they can be used to handle your concern.
“the root cause(s) of the fires have been understood and revealed”
If you don’t find a root cause, do you still put one for the sake of it?
You're the one who has demanded that we look at all of these other reports
And I’m happy with the conclusions provided to me. You’re the one yearning for a 100-page document. I’m sure it is available somewhere. Go for it.
I simply arguing with your ideas of how this investigation deviates from others. You seem to know the standards and I assume they are following standards and letting them do their job. Responsibilities should be left where it belongs.
So to me, based on these other cases, the CR-V investigation fails to live up to the standards of the others because it's the only one that has been closed without an understanding of the root cause of the fires. To me, this is sufficient cause to raise questions about this investigation demonstrating a deviation
If the pinched-gasket or stacked-gasket theory isn’t root cause enough for you, what is? You might know better than NHTSA without investigating into the matter, but I’m still going to take the word of the authorities.
No, you continue looking until you find one. And you don't close the case until you do. Through these other reports, the NHTSA has shown themselves to be very talented at finding such root causes.
Since the NHTSA is responsible for consumer safety, they just don't have the luxury of throwing up their hands and saying "we don't know". They persevere until they DO know. They have to be held to the highest standard of performance, because people can be seriously injured or die if they fail to deliver.
"And I’m happy with the conclusions provided to me. You’re the one yearning for a 100-page document. I’m sure it is available somewhere. Go for it."
I NEVER asked for a 100 page report... you're the one who originally suggested it in a weak attempt to attack my position through exaggeration.
You know all of those reports that you posted as examples? The ones with the 1 paragraph defect descriptions? Every single one of them is exactly what I'm looking for. They all include a description of the problem, the NHTSA's determination of the root cause of the problem, and their conclusion.
And lo and behold, all of this information requires not 100 pages, not even ONE page. Provide the same level of information for the CR-V in exactly the same format and I'm happy as a clam.
"If the pinched-gasket or stacked-gasket theory isn’t root cause enough for you, what is? You might know better than NHTSA without investigating into the matter, but I’m still going to take the word of the authorities."
Once again, for the 10002nd time, the pinched gasket/stacked gasket theory does NOT address the root cause. It describes only what causes the oil leak, not how and why the oil ignites. An oil leak does NOT always cause a fire, but it does in the reported cases for the CR-V. So we need to know why the oil ignites to understand the entire situation, and to conclusively rule out the possibility of a design defect. Every other cited report describes how the ignition occurs.
I don't think I know better than the NHTSA. As I've said before, you don't have to be an automotive expert... you just have to understand the concept of cause and effect, and how their report clearly fails to address that concept. They've established a standard of reporting based on all of these other examples. I'm just asking them to provide consistent information. They have NOT done this with the CR-V. If they fail or refuse to provide this consistent information for the CR-V, as a concerned consumer, I want to know why they're making an exception for this report.
Apparently, that’s not the normal procedure at NHTSA. Go look up at cases that have been closed. Even in Camry, they don’t seem to be bothered by not asking for a recall. Does that mean fires never happened? If you don’t find something, just invent it? I wouldn’t go for it.
"THE CLOSING OF THIS INVESTIGATION DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A FINDING BY NHTSA THAT NO SAFETY-RELATED DEFECT EXISTS. THE AGENCY WILL TAKE FURTHER ACTION IF WARRANTED BY THE CIRCUMSTANCES."
That indicates something to me, if not to you.
Once again, for the 10002nd time, the pinched gasket/stacked gasket theory does NOT address the root cause.
What does? Have you investigated the case and found something that they couldn't?
I've seen it happen, and it's NOT unique to the CRV.
Actually when you extrapolate the number of CRV's sold vs. Mazda6. It become almost even.....Okay maybe not....But I just had to have a typical post too.
And Talon and Robert are rather shall we say verbose, nounose, and adjectivose....LOL
Hopefully Honda interiors don't ignite due to their driver's excessive spewing of hot air or Honda will really have a problem....
Some other combo badges of yore: Corolla Tercel, Camry Solara.
You are right - that TV ad talking about nine models over 30 mpg is mostly PR hype/hogwash, and is only just barely the truth. Consider RAV, for instance: the only model with any EPA number over 30 mpg is the 4x2 manual (rated at 25/31). Just try to find one of those anywhere in the whole COUNTRY. The most common configurations are the automatics at 24/29 and 22/27 depending on 4x2 or 4x4.
Fuel economy, BTW, is the one area where the Civic still excels - best in class pretty much. Wonder if they will be able to maintain that AND boost the power for the next gen...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
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Oh, BTW the loser dealer is Los Gatos Honda (now changed to South Bay Honda) in Los Gatos California. I do admit our salesman is a rather nice "kid" (Michael), albeit it does not help with this kind of crappola! I will let you guys know tomorrow what happens, but as far as I can figure they can't fix the hood without repainting the entire thing....NOT ACCEPTABLE for a brand new car.
-juice
Where did you see it happen? You didn't believe mfletouva when he saw a CR-V ignite, why should anyone believe you?
Which other models are regularly catching on fire from bad oil changes at the same rate as the CR-v?
Sorry, not taking your bait.
I'm convinced driftracer is in the automotive legal community and generally knows what he's talking about, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt unless it's blatant or just unbelievable.
I may not agree with his viewpoints on some matters, but I don't think he's a liar.
I was just wondering why he called another poster who claimed he saw a CR-V spontaneously combust a liar.
BTW, I just decided I have a new girlfriend supermodel I've set up in my new 17 room mansion. I'm driving there to see her now in my just acquired Lambourghini
Hey, saugatak, my supermodel girlfriend wants to do lunch with your supermodel girlfriend. Yours can pick the spot... it doesn't matter where, mine can just hop on the Lear...
And would you believe it? I was driving the Maserati home from Jiffy Lube, and just like that, it burst into flames!
Please take advantage of the undocumneted IGNORE feature to avoid "firing back" with personal comments at posts you disagree with.
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Besides, I've dated almost all of the currently available supermodels already, so if I make this suggestion and the current one gets mad, I may run out of supermodels.
Now where did I put those lithium tablets...
This problem lies with the dealer and not with Honda. I wold demand they either fix the CRV to your satisfaction or swap it for another car. No excuse for that.
The reason they insisted you pay for the car before installing leather is because they didn't want to get stuck with a maybe hard to sell leather CRV if you backed out of the deal.
You have badmouthed your dealer in this and other forums. I would have to see your car and hear the other side of the story and even then, I would stay out of it.
Sounds like your issues go beyond the condition of the CRV when it was delivered.
Now they MAY choose to do this with a repaint and such, if they have to...but make sure you find out WHERE they're doing it and that it's a quality job.
You may want to e-mail Honda Corporate and let them know what's going on and ask them what your options are.
A car that has been repainted is not in "brand-new-car" condition. There is NO WAY IN HELL that I'd accept a brand new car that needs paint work.
You signed the paper work for a brand new car. A repainted car or a dented car is not brand new.
Anybody buy an CR-V LX recently and what did you pay (including $490 destination fee)?
Read someplace that Honda never discounts but don't know if that's true. I can't find any info about Honda giving dealers money back on 2004 leftovers.
With the invoice at $18,700 + destination charge, should I expect to be less?
Must be a dealer thing...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am not a representative for Honda or for that dealership. As such, it's prudent for me to simply back out. Others have given you advise.
I know, if I ever have a customer as unhappy as you seem to be I would much rather unwind the deal and move on. I never want a customer to leave unhappy. No sale (for me anyway) is worth that.
After that last post, I'm betting there is another side to this story!
But, yes, your new car should be delivered in undamaged condition. We would ALL agree to that!
With horror stories like this one I think Honda's run is over and done.
Once in awhile we will sell a new car AS IS because of some MINOR scratch or ding. Of course, the full warranty applies but the customer gets a discount because of a minor bumper ding or scrape.
A lot of shoppers don't care and sometimes the scratch is so minor we have to point it out to them. This hood deal sounds much worse.