"GMAC has also agreed to offer 1.25 million loans with no dealer markups to qualified black and Latino buyers over the next five years"
It's not bigoted. It's actually kind of sad that minorites have to have stuff like this mandated or "given" rather than earned like everyone else. I'm a minority and I have three auto loans in my name. I have the 1.9% special on my Civic SI, and the Honda special lease rate on my Ody and EX-L. I didn't need anything given to me. I fought off the finance guy just like any other informed consumer would.
Heck, the car business needs those people. They make it possible for me to get my EX-L with all accessories for a 22300 cap cost 123000 residual 360 month total pymnt. While they pay straight sticker at 15% interest. You can't protect the ignorant from themselves.
" that size of car that's in between "mid-size" and "subcompact" seems just about dead,"
That class of car is called a "B/C" car isn't it Andre? Little bigger than a B (Focus), and a little smaller than a C (Taurus), IIRC. And Ford believed the Contour failed because of the size, which works great at a HUGE car in Europe, but over on this side of the drink, it's too small and too big. Personally I felt it failed because it tended to go to crap after about 80,000 miles myself, but Ford thought it had no market in that size, from what I have read.
I've seen it happen to my parents, others assuming they would be less educated (in purchasing or similar situations) and less argumentative than most. But I think it usually has to do with what economic class it looks like we're in than what race we are. And wealth and race have some correlation here.
In any case, the thought that dealers might be trying to um... dishonorably (since it's not illegal and only arguably immoral)... strikes me with a big "duh". It doesn't take racism.
I'm not sure why I shouldn't expect it to share the Baja's fate, and I hope its development didn't negatively affect the development of cars more true to Honda's identity. Good luck to it though.
I'll ask this here as I am too lazy to look on a Honda board, and this is a Honda thread....a friend of mine has an 03 Accord EX/V6 coupe he bought new, an early model he bought in October 02. He has about 40K on it, and he has had no real issues except for a glitchy alarm. Last week all of the dash lights, including the readout for HVAC, died. Idiot lights, gauge illumination, everything. He took it to the dealer, and they are fixing it under warranty...he said the dealer told it is a big job with the removal of many interior components and many cars are affected, to the point of a possible recall. Has anyone heard about this?
"...he said the dealer told it is a big job with the removal of many interior components"
That's a little vague, so I'm only guessing here, fin, ok? First, no I haven't heard of this before. Second, this statement from the dealer/tech could mean two things in my experience with my former Honda. 1) Honda seems to build from the inside out, so though repairs are rarely needed, when you do, you may have to peel off several layers of components to get to the offending part. OR: It could be like a bad harness or something, OR EVEN, like the multi-components under the hood, there are a LOT of relays, switches and capaciters in a Honda, and perhaps whatever shorted out, blew a ton of subcomponents. Hard to tell....
It's a kind of backwoods small town dealer, so the info he got might be faulty. As far as I know, the gauges work, it's the lighting that is dead. My friend mentioned something like removing the center console or center stack, and says the shop guy said it would need to be there a full day to be fixed. He doesn't know all about cars, though. I just thought it was an interesting story. Apparently it is more complex than a simple fuse, whatever the issue may be.
If they pull this fuel cell business off the hybrid will go to the back burner, and Honda will be back in the lead ahead of Toyota. I did not know they had gotten as far as they have. It is still several years before we will be able to own one.
You can hang out and chat with your fellow Town Hall enthusiasts for TWO hours on Thursdays now... First up from 5-6pm PT/8-9pm ET we have the brand new Saab Enthusiast Chat. Stop in to meet and greet fellow Saab enthusiasts and your fellow Town Hall denizens and take your favorite automotive topics LIVE in our chat room.
Join the Subaru Crew every Thursday evening for a chat session from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. The chat room opens about 15 minutes before the scheduled start time, so stop on in, even if it's just to say Hello! All things Subaru is the general theme, but anything automotive is fair game too. Come on in and get to know some of your fellow Town Hallies better! See you there...
yeah, that sounds about right, a "B/C" car. At one time, that class seemed to be all the rage, but by the time the Contour came out, it did seem to be dying off.
In reality though, I guess today a Focus probably is about the same size as a Contour was. The difference though, is that a Focus gets most of its interior volume from height, whereas there was a bit more stretch-out room in the Contour. Contour might've been a bit wider inside, too. And I think shoulder room is usually the one dimension that usually makes a car feel bigger or smaller inside. After all, legroom usually doesn't vary too much from car to car, as most cars, regardless of size class usually have around 41-43" of legroom up front, and probably 35-39" in back (although the tiniest cars might have around 29-30"). But shoulder room, I've seen vary from something like 49-50" in cars like a Chevette, or maybe a Metro, all the way up to around 64-65", which is what those outsized '71-76 Impalas, Caprices, etc had. I think those "whale/suppository" '90's Caprices, Impala SS'es, etc also had about the same shoulder room.
I think the Mazda6 fans here are missing the point entirely - the main advantages of the 6 are the availability of a manual tranny with the V6 (on a sedan) and the versatile body styles (wagon and hatch).
Perhaps Honda would rather sell more profitable CR-Vs and Pilots, but I think an Accord wagon is ready for a come back.
Or just bring the TSX wagon since it's already made in Europe that way. But even that might compete for attention with the new RDX.
it really seems like Honda and Toyota would rather have small SUVs/crossovers be their "wagons" than to actually bring back an honest Accord/Camry wagon.
On a side note, I think it is a mistake for Mazda to have a 6 hatch AND a 6 wagon. Have you seen them side by side? Hardly any difference between them. The hatch can go head to head with the Malibu Maxx and you can cancel the wagon, or you could just leave the hatch out entirely and be the only carmaker with a midsize wagon (after the imminent demise of the Taurus wagon).
I think it's a great idea to have run-flats on the new Odyssey this fall, as Honda has announced. As long as they don't make the ride too harsh, they will be a boon for interior space, which will be increased now there is no need for a spare. Wonder if any of the other minivan makers will follow suit...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Legacy is about the same size as the Mazda6, wheelbases are within an inch of each other IIRC (TSX wheelbase also). Passat wagon is another mid-sizer.
Ford has the Freestyle coming out, though it'll be bigger. And it's based on the 6 I think.
Ody will have some sort of lazy susan storage where the spare used to be. Interesting...
that every once in awhile, run-flat tires seem to resurface, and it's almost always on family hauler-type vehicles. Back in 1957, Chrysler offered them on 3-seat station wagon, but I think part of the reasoning for that was there was no room for a spare tire on their 3-seat wagons.
Honda's not eliminating the spare tire, are they? ;-)
I'll be interested to see how it rides. The Sienna is supposedly smoother already, can Honda make a run-flat tire that's also smooth riding? Is it the Michelin Pax system or a reinforced sidewall?
did the Legacy get any bigger with the '05 redesign? I've always kinda liked the Legacy (partly though it's because I've always thought frameless door windows were cool!), but like the Mazda6, they were just too small inside for me to get comfortable.
Interestingly though, while the Passat doesn't have much legroom on paper, I find them to be pretty comfy. A buddy of mine has a 2001.5 (IIRC) model though, and lately it's been acting up worse than a 1980 Citation!
geez, don't know what I was thinking leaving out the Passat and Legacy wagons - temporary total amnesia?! Actually, given the plethora of available midsize wagons, it would probably be wiser for Mazda to stick to the hatch and leave out the wagon, given their closeness in size. Probably one of the reasons Honda and Toyota don't do wagons is they feel the market is already flooded with them.
The hybrid Pilot due next year is supposed to give the mileage of a small wagon with the size and utility of an SUV. Plowing tons of money into developing hybrids is probably another reason why T/H aren't bringing out new wagons.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
PAX is better, I believe, doesn't that have an internal support, vs. a stiff sidewall? So it could ride well after all.
I think smaller makes like Mazda and Subaru *have* to sell wagons to get more volume. Honda and Toyota seem to have plenty of volume even without them.
Toyota and Honda have been “spoiled”. If they sold 20K units of wagons, it would account for “only” 5% of total sales and not worth it.
In case of Honda, I think bringing over FR-V/Edix would be a good idea though (with K24 powering it, and offer with the diesel as well when conditions permit), instead of Accord wagon. It looks and supposedly feels more like a car/wagon, but has utility similar to that of small sport utes (CR-V).
Honda and Toyota offered Camry and Accord wagons, does anybody have an idea of how well they sold? I recall seeing a good number of the '87-91 Camry wagons, but the odd-shaped '92-96, which looks like they actually did a heavy-handed job of shoving '92 sheetmetal on a '91, seems pretty rare.
I'll see a '94-97 Accord wagon every once in awhile. I think that's a pretty nice style. Been awhile since I saw a '90-93 though.
What is hot to some is not to others. Toyota considers a main stream car like the Camry wagon selling 20K units a major flop. Anything under 50K gets looked at for replacement. Niche cars are different. Both Honda and Toyota sold wagons and decided it wasn't worth it. I agree that smaller manufacturers "have" to sell wagons. I don't know how much not having a manual transmission has to do with Wagon sales. Most people here don't want a manual and so manuals only take up lot space.
Brand new red GT wagon. What a nice ride. Manual tranny, excellent pickup and a nice sounding exhaust from inside the cabin. Comfy seats, excellent dash layout/material quality, Low profile skins with 17? inchers. Really sharp car. Might have to look at one for myself...
I place my highest hopes for the perpetuation of the manual transmission on Subie - they offer manuals on models that manufacturers like Honda/Toyota would never consider providing a manual option for.
If the xB can sell a very healthy mix of manuals, why not the Element and CRV? I forget exactly how it goes, but I know manuals are limited to FWD models or something, and just try finding one on a dealer's lot anywhere. (he said bitterly!) :-P
Same thing is true for the RAV4, especially if you want an AWD.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
with the head of Honda American sales and I believe he said the number one selling Honda was the Accord, I-4, Automatic. The manual wasn't even a close second. The Civic Automatic out sells the Accord Manual by a wide margin. And the Civic manual doesn't account for more that 30 percent of the Civic sales. I can imagine that the wagon manual would be as rare as hens teeth.
"Actually, all of the Accord Wagons were available with a five speed."
Surely not the V-6 models? I didn't think there had ever been a manual V-6 Accord before the current coupe. And how is the 6-speed V-6 coupe selling anyway? Slow seller also?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"I think smaller makes like Mazda and Subaru *have* to sell wagons to get more volume. Honda and Toyota seem to have plenty of volume even without them."
Have to? I think the reason why we have a Mazda6 wagon is because unlike the Honda Accord, there is only one version of the Mazda6 for the whole world. Might as well have the wagon here. It's as simple as that.
They actually build all our Mazda6's here. So the wagon is actually quite a expense as far as tooling and parts. It's not like they are shiping em over from Japan where they would be building them anyway.
If the "we build em anyway" notion were true, we'd have a diesel 6 too.
Yeah the new GT is sharp. I got to drive one around the infield race track at Las Vegas Motor Speedway and I'll confirm that a family wagon has no business being that fast! LOL
Honda still doesn't put a manual on its V6 sedan (Accord), but the coupe gets it. So they're overlooking the sports sedan segment entirely. Or leaving that to the TSX.
Back in 2002 we went to 5 Toyota dealers and did not find a single Camry 5 speed manual with ABS, not a one.
Prolly too "small potatoes" for Honda and Toyota to bother with.
newcar31: I agree with that theory for the most part, but then why no TSX wagon? They sell one in Europe, it's really nice.
2 engines and 2 trannies. They sold 7500 of them in June vs. around 35,000 Camrys and Accords. I wonder how many absolutely loaded V6 manual 6's did that include? If you think of it like that, you see there is no incentive for Toyota or Honda to sell V6 manual sedans. They'd be asphalt weights on the lots.
Another example is the Accord EX-L 5 speed I bought a couple weeks ago. It was born in January I think. It had been sitting for 6 months.
an Accord manual is an extreme rarity on dealer lots. Even Civic manuals are getting harder to find.
isell: wow, never knew that. I just figured if you could get a V-6 sedan, it would make sense that you could also get a V-6 wagon, since wagons weigh more. Surprising.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I went to www.fueleconomy.org, which lists engine availability and fuel economy on cars and light trucks back to 1985. I learned a few interesting tidbits...
1) The Accord didn't even have a V-6 until the 1995 model year!
2) The first V-6 in the Accord was a 2.7 unit, which was replaced by a 3.0 for the 1998 redesign. It had 170 hp @ 5600 rpm and 165 ft-lb of torque @ 4500 rpm.
I know the Acura Legend had a 2.7 V-6 when it first came out. Was this the same V-6?
I wonder what the rationale was for not offering a V-6 in the wagon models? I checked the weights on various 1995 models, and here's what I found... 1995 EX sedan, 4-cyl: 3009 lb 1995 EX wagon, 4-cyl: 3197 lb 1995 EX sedan, V-6: 3285 lb
So it looks like the wagon model added about 190 lb over the 4-cyl sedan, but interestingly, the V-6 sedan added almost 280 lb over the 4-cyl sedan! I wonder if a V-6 wagon would've just been too heavy, using up too much of the car's GVWR and not allowing for much of a load capacity?
Comments
It's not bigoted. It's actually kind of sad that minorites have to have stuff like this mandated or "given" rather than earned like everyone else. I'm a minority and I have three auto loans in my name. I have the 1.9% special on my Civic SI, and the Honda special lease rate on my Ody and EX-L. I didn't need anything given to me. I fought off the finance guy just like any other informed consumer would.
Heck, the car business needs those people. They make it possible for me to get my EX-L with all accessories for a 22300 cap cost 123000 residual 360 month total pymnt. While they pay straight sticker at 15% interest. You can't protect the ignorant from themselves.
On second thought, I didn't mean to insult my son's diaper.
That class of car is called a "B/C" car isn't it Andre? Little bigger than a B (Focus), and a little smaller than a C (Taurus), IIRC. And Ford believed the Contour failed because of the size, which works great at a HUGE car in Europe, but over on this side of the drink, it's too small and too big. Personally I felt it failed because it tended to go to crap after about 80,000 miles myself, but Ford thought it had no market in that size, from what I have read.
In any case, the thought that dealers might be trying to um... dishonorably (since it's not illegal and only arguably immoral)... strikes me with a big "duh". It doesn't take racism.
==
The Temple of VTEC has SUT spyshots.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=255729
I'm not sure why I shouldn't expect it to share the Baja's fate, and I hope its development didn't negatively affect the development of cars more true to Honda's identity. Good luck to it though.
That's a little vague, so I'm only guessing here, fin, ok? First, no I haven't heard of this before. Second, this statement from the dealer/tech could mean two things in my experience with my former Honda. 1) Honda seems to build from the inside out, so though repairs are rarely needed, when you do, you may have to peel off several layers of components to get to the offending part. OR: It could be like a bad harness or something, OR EVEN, like the multi-components under the hood, there are a LOT of relays, switches and capaciters in a Honda, and perhaps whatever shorted out, blew a ton of subcomponents. Hard to tell....
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=255829
You can hang out and chat with your fellow Town Hall enthusiasts for TWO hours on Thursdays now... First up from 5-6pm PT/8-9pm ET we have the brand new Saab Enthusiast Chat. Stop in to meet and greet fellow Saab enthusiasts and your fellow Town Hall denizens and take your favorite automotive topics LIVE in our chat room.
Saab Chat Room
Then immediately following...
Join the Subaru Crew every Thursday evening for a chat session from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. The chat room opens about 15 minutes before the scheduled start time, so stop on in, even if it's just to say Hello! All things Subaru is the general theme, but anything automotive is fair game too. Come on in and get to know some of your fellow Town Hallies better! See you there...
Subaru Crew Chat Room
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
In reality though, I guess today a Focus probably is about the same size as a Contour was. The difference though, is that a Focus gets most of its interior volume from height, whereas there was a bit more stretch-out room in the Contour. Contour might've been a bit wider inside, too. And I think shoulder room is usually the one dimension that usually makes a car feel bigger or smaller inside. After all, legroom usually doesn't vary too much from car to car, as most cars, regardless of size class usually have around 41-43" of legroom up front, and probably 35-39" in back (although the tiniest cars might have around 29-30"). But shoulder room, I've seen vary from something like 49-50" in cars like a Chevette, or maybe a Metro, all the way up to around 64-65", which is what those outsized '71-76 Impalas, Caprices, etc had. I think those "whale/suppository" '90's Caprices, Impala SS'es, etc also had about the same shoulder room.
Perhaps Honda would rather sell more profitable CR-Vs and Pilots, but I think an Accord wagon is ready for a come back.
Or just bring the TSX wagon since it's already made in Europe that way. But even that might compete for attention with the new RDX.
-juice
On a side note, I think it is a mistake for Mazda to have a 6 hatch AND a 6 wagon. Have you seen them side by side? Hardly any difference between them. The hatch can go head to head with the Malibu Maxx and you can cancel the wagon, or you could just leave the hatch out entirely and be the only carmaker with a midsize wagon (after the imminent demise of the Taurus wagon).
I think it's a great idea to have run-flats on the new Odyssey this fall, as Honda has announced. As long as they don't make the ride too harsh, they will be a boon for interior space, which will be increased now there is no need for a spare. Wonder if any of the other minivan makers will follow suit...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford has the Freestyle coming out, though it'll be bigger. And it's based on the 6 I think.
Ody will have some sort of lazy susan storage where the spare used to be. Interesting...
-juice
Honda's not eliminating the spare tire, are they? ;-)
-juice
Interestingly though, while the Passat doesn't have much legroom on paper, I find them to be pretty comfy. A buddy of mine has a 2001.5 (IIRC) model though, and lately it's been acting up worse than a 1980 Citation!
Of course the wagon has a ton of headroom, so that helps a bit. Funny thing is 93% of Outbacks sold are wagons, sedans are rare.
-juice
The hybrid Pilot due next year is supposed to give the mileage of a small wagon with the size and utility of an SUV. Plowing tons of money into developing hybrids is probably another reason why T/H aren't bringing out new wagons.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think smaller makes like Mazda and Subaru *have* to sell wagons to get more volume. Honda and Toyota seem to have plenty of volume even without them.
-juice
In case of Honda, I think bringing over FR-V/Edix would be a good idea though (with K24 powering it, and offer with the diesel as well when conditions permit), instead of Accord wagon. It looks and supposedly feels more like a car/wagon, but has utility similar to that of small sport utes (CR-V).
I'll see a '94-97 Accord wagon every once in awhile. I think that's a pretty nice style. Been awhile since I saw a '90-93 though.
-juice
-juice
-juice
Nice job Subie
If the xB can sell a very healthy mix of manuals, why not the Element and CRV? I forget exactly how it goes, but I know manuals are limited to FWD models or something, and just try finding one on a dealer's lot anywhere. (he said bitterly!) :-P
Same thing is true for the RAV4, especially if you want an AWD.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They were VERY slow sellers.
Surely not the V-6 models? I didn't think there had ever been a manual V-6 Accord before the current coupe. And how is the 6-speed V-6 coupe selling anyway? Slow seller also?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Accord Wagons were produced from 1991-1997 in both LX and EX versions Either could be had with an automatic or a five speed.
Every year, sales declined although our store for some reason, did pretty well with them.
As used cars, they are quite popular UNLESS, they have a five speed.
Of course, around here, we have lots of traffic and lots of hills that make sticks a whole lot less attractive.
These sell O.K. The people who want one REALLY want one. The vast majority want automatics.
Have to? I think the reason why we have a Mazda6 wagon is because unlike the Honda Accord, there is only one version of the Mazda6 for the whole world. Might as well have the wagon here. It's as simple as that.
If the "we build em anyway" notion were true, we'd have a diesel 6 too.
Honda still doesn't put a manual on its V6 sedan (Accord), but the coupe gets it. So they're overlooking the sports sedan segment entirely. Or leaving that to the TSX.
Back in 2002 we went to 5 Toyota dealers and did not find a single Camry 5 speed manual with ABS, not a one.
Prolly too "small potatoes" for Honda and Toyota to bother with.
newcar31: I agree with that theory for the most part, but then why no TSX wagon? They sell one in Europe, it's really nice.
-juice
Another example is the Accord EX-L 5 speed I bought a couple weeks ago. It was born in January I think. It had been sitting for 6 months.
isell: wow, never knew that. I just figured if you could get a V-6 sedan, it would make sense that you could also get a V-6 wagon, since wagons weigh more. Surprising.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1) The Accord didn't even have a V-6 until the 1995 model year!
2) The first V-6 in the Accord was a 2.7 unit, which was replaced by a 3.0 for the 1998 redesign. It had 170 hp @ 5600 rpm and 165 ft-lb of torque @ 4500 rpm.
I know the Acura Legend had a 2.7 V-6 when it first came out. Was this the same V-6?
I wonder what the rationale was for not offering a V-6 in the wagon models? I checked the weights on various 1995 models, and here's what I found...
1995 EX sedan, 4-cyl: 3009 lb
1995 EX wagon, 4-cyl: 3197 lb
1995 EX sedan, V-6: 3285 lb
So it looks like the wagon model added about 190 lb over the 4-cyl sedan, but interestingly, the V-6 sedan added almost 280 lb over the 4-cyl sedan! I wonder if a V-6 wagon would've just been too heavy, using up too much of the car's GVWR and not allowing for much of a load capacity?