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Just like towing a loaded 8 horse trailer would kill a Chevy S-10. It's not made for it, and certainly is not for comparison.
You have to compare apples to apples, not using an overworked, car-based minivan in comparison to a one-ton truck!!
"You're not going to claim the Japanese mini-van's longevity is equal to a domestic full size van?"
Where've you been the last 25 years?
I most definitely will make that claim, with plenty of evidence to back it up, every day of the week and twice on Sunday - I'll put anything Japan makes against any comparible domestic minivan without hesitation, and certainly compare longevity of an Odyssey, Quest, Sienna (or Previa) against a Dodge Ram B van or Ford Econoline - please!?!
While you're putting the second engine and third transmission in that Dodge van, the Honda will be due for rear brake wheel cylinders and a tune up.
I'm as American as they come, from the South, military vet, etc, but there's two areas where imports smoke domestics, and that's longevity and reliability - pretty danged important areas to be smoked in, by the way...
But then you may have been using hyperbole about the 25 year thing and Japanese trucks and I missed it.
I had one of the Toyota bread-oven vans with the corolla platform & 4 banger between the seats. It was reliable, and fairly tough mechanically, but a miserable van on the road. I'd say unsafe over 50 mph actually. The wheelbase was way too narrow and short for the height of the van, and strong crosswinds made the thing a fright to drive. It was low powered too, and the interior parts fell off like a Yugo. But I still see some running around here, so they were typical Toyota tough underneath. The bubble van (Previa) was much better, but still underpowered. In the Sienna, they have got it right, as does the Odessey. Once again, it took a while, but they finally did it. Meantime, domestics are no longer class leading, and we're studying now the Japanese did it now! Then there's the Kia Sedona - an overweight, undersexed economy offering that reminds me of a 62 Econoline.... But give them time, they may surpass the Venture in just a few years. Wouldn't take much.
I might ask you that question. First I always see the argument that Camry outsells all the rest, therefore it must be the best. I can easily say that Dodge Caravan sells two to every one Honda or Toyota mini-van. Clear evidence that the Dodge Caravan is the best. If the Japanese thought they could compete in the full size van market they would try. They are smart enough to stick to what they do best.
As far as PU trucks you have to be dreaming if you think Toyota fullsize pickups are even close to domestics in any way shape or form. They sell 20 domestic full size trucks to every Toyota Tundra sold. I think that means they are at least 20 times better than the Tundra. The new GM midsize trucks get much better mileage than the small Toyota PU.
And as long as you mention Honda brakes. I was in the brake shop with our little Mazda 626 and commented to the owner about the brakes on the Mazda. He took me over to an Accord he was doing the brakes on. He said they are the cheapest built brake system he ever works on.
I'll bow out and let you continue with your "GM is better than Honda" dialogue.
When I saw a 1978 VW Rabbit diesel last month with 250,000 miles still running and bid up to $2100 on ebay, I feel that it was a better car than the 1978 Honda Accord that I got $300 for in 1985. I tried to sell it through the Auto Trader and never got a call. How many Honda Accords are still on the road after 20 years?
You say that I have no statistical data to back up my assertions, where is yours?
If you included the link you would have known it, not only who, but how.
The fact that you don't know which GM cars compete against the Accord and Civic speaks volumes.
How can you laud or dog a particular manufacturer when you have no idea what they're even producing?
Now if you changed the phrase to "attempts to compete"... ;-) Sorry, it was there and I just couldn't resist!
In fact, though, the Cavalier (Cobalt) competes with the Civic, at least in class, although I'd surely never let a family member or friend buy the Chevy given the proven track record I have with them (5-10 cases per week on the Cavalier).
The Malibu and Impala sort of compete with the Accord, sort of, in a rental car, temporary sort of way.
Without using the tools provided by surveys, the very ones you indicated are pretty much useless in another forum, we are left with buyers preferences.
But the real subject of this forum is, has Honda lost a step over the years? Toyota passed them in sedans and Nissan has retaken the Japanese domestic lead from them. So I don't say they have "run-out" but it looks as if they have slowed down. This doesn't have to be a major set back but wouldn't you agree it is a set back of some kind?
The last 25 years I was referring to was how imports have completely stolen the "good ol days" of owning a GM, Ford, or DCC product since the imports have totally smoked the domestics in reliability, efficiency, and any other arena that counts.
Like I said, I'm as American (and patriotic) as they get, but the Big 3 got their tails whooped along time ago in that fight, and to have someone talk about how their 1974 Dodge Van could outdo anything imported...it's just funny, and very unrealistic.
To answer your question and point, though, I don't think Honda has really tripped or missed a step - I think the others finally caught up, and even Honda purists admit that the differences between other imports and Honda products aren't that great anymore. I think they've all hit a level of greatness that will be tough to improve on.
That seems mighty broad to me. Is that why the big three smoke the imports on all the vehicles that make big profits like SUV's & PU trucks? Show me some longevity statistics. Anyone can build a vehicle that will last 4 to 5 years. Are they still on the road at 10 to 15 years? If it was not for Accord & Camry the Japanese would be niche automakers. They are not in a league with Domestic SUVs and PU trucks. You like to ignore that fact but it will not go away. There are 8 domestic models of SUV that outsell the top Honda & Toyota SUVs. If you have any evidence to refute that I'm willing to look at it. How many people has your agency helped that had a vehicle break down at 60-100k miles? That is where the laws should come into play. Many manufacturing defects coincidently appear after the warranty period. I'm a firm believer that automakers engineer for planned obsolescence.
Slowed down? Or just not producing as many vehicles as some competitors? Slow down to me would be reflected in reduced sales, not with record sales.
Go back a page or two, you have statistics from 1988 thru 2000.
I don't know that his report is slanted. It is nearly impossible to figure out what it says. I don't see any reference to models only manufacturers. Maybe what I would like to see is too complex. I doubt that we will ever agree anyway.
I'm curious, have you ever owned a Honda? If not what is your tie to them?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2482344383&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2482311278&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
That may be true. However, the 8 domestic models all offer pretty substantial rebates with the exception of the 2005 Escape. There is cash available on the 2004 Escape however. Then you have to figure in fleet sales. It has been shown that domestics typically have a 15-20% higher fleet sale percentage than the imports.
Listen, it's okay not to like Honda or Toyota. But if you want to argue that there are other carmakers that are better you should definitely pick a more worthy competitor than 20 year old VW's and GM's.
At the mid-level, GM still has customers rationalizing their mediocracy - buckle up for more!
Loved the mpg. Hated the shifter. Peppy acceleration around town. NVH was similar to the boiler room in a ferry boat.
When I met my wife, she had a 91 Mazda 323 hatch. We owned it until 2001 when she traded up for an Acura TL.
Both the Rabbit and 323 were about 10 years old at the time when we parted company. I have fond memories of the Rabbit, but at the 10 year mark, the 323 was in much better shape and a much move livable car.
For example, one reason why Ford sells so many Explorers is because of the vehicle's legacy. It was the first "best" SUV to meet the needs of families. The truck has a legacy. Ford has 4 times as many sales outlets as a company like Honda. They also offer $4,000 in incentives on these vehicles. And many of these vehicles are sold to fleets. Ford is required to do this because they have far more capacity than customers.
That's just one example. We could use similar conditions (incentives/production) to explain the sales of the Caravan. It works for Honda's Accord (legacy sales) equally well. But few people on these forums have the patience or expertise for figuring out the impact of these variables. Thus sales is a subject best left alone.
I can see that. So, your second statement is wrong. ;-)
The reliability index has benchmarked Toyota and Honda as the top two for a reasonably long period of time IMO. I would prefer that source rather than something based on my personal opinion/experience. If the latter were to count, I would assign reliability index close to 100% to Honda for the three virtually flawless vehicles I have owned from the company (accounting for a total of 185K miles). Would you take the latter instead?
The Japanese big 3 make lots of per-unit profits by making realistic sales goals and severely limiting giveaways like cash incentives to customers, which are currently the domestics' ace in the hole, and also one of the reasons their per-unit profits are virtually nil taken as a whole for each company.
There is nothing to say that if Toyota, Honda or Nissan, tried to sell SUVs and full-size pick-ups on the massive scale that Ford and GM do, that they could do it as successfully as those domestics do. But that is another reason that sales are not a good measure of the quality of the product: the slow measured growth approach of the Japanese carmakers means they are not trying to sell that many.
Another thing is that price decides probably 50% or more of all sales, and as we all know low price is not usually your best guarantor of quality. Witness the sales of the inexpensive Korean models of the 90s, many of which did not end up being that great after a few years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The other was my '79 Newport. It had a slightly-beefed up Torqueflite 904 variant, which I think they called the 998 or somehing like that? Well, I bought it from the junkyard for $250, and it needed a tranny rebuild. It also had about 230,000 miles on it! The tranny shop said that it looked like the original transmission.
Now my '68 Dart did have a tranny that went out around the 242,000 mile mark, about 11,000 miles before I bought it. The only reason it died though is because the previous owner rebuilt the engine, beefing it up in the process. That extra power was just too much for the 240K tranny and rear-end, which crapped out almost immediately. So he yanked the tranny and rear-end out of another Dart and was on the road again. I dunno how many miles that tranny had on it, but one day I did need some work done on it (I forget what now, but it came to around $137, and included replacing a crimped cooling line), and they said it looked like it had been rebuilt at some point.
Maybe the reason you guys saw so many engines and trannies that had to be rebuilt back in the 50's and 60's and 70's is because you were looking at Ford and GM, when ya shoulda been looking at Mopar? ;-)
(of course, I conveniently left out my '89 Gran Fury, which had the engine from an '88 put in at 73K miles when the #8 camshaft lobe failed, and my '88 LeBaron that was a dog pile by 115,000 miles or so...)
Now as for newer cars and tranny failures, well my grandparents had a '77 Granada drop its tranny while still under warranty. And my Mom & stepdad's '99 Altima dumped its tranny under warranty at 35,000 miles. I just talked to her the other nite though, and she told me the car now has about 150,000 miles on it, so as far as I'm concerned, it's forgiven! One of my co-workers bought a brand-new 2000 Lincoln LS V-6 that had a bum tranny pretty much off the showroom floor.
Oh yeah, almost forgot...my roommate's '98 Tracker needed major tranny work about every 20,000 miles or so. Finally went boobs-up at around 92,000 miles. He had a used one put in with about 55,000 on it. He's only gone about 22,000 miles since then, but no troubles...yet!
You gave this thread new life. Honda builds such perfect cars there was nothing to debate.
Most of my cars bought from the junkyard were 1947-1957 models, 16 in all. Could not afford a new car until 1964. I worked in wrecking yards my last two years of high school, mostly rebuilding manual transmissions. Fond memories, I don't miss being greasy all the time.
You better check the TMV for Toyota Tundra PU trucks I show them selling @ $4000 under MSRP and Land Cruisers @ $5500 under MSRP. I am not sure why the large corporations all lease Ford and Chevy Trucks. My guess is they get a good price and they outlast the competition. You can keep making excuses why the big three outsell the Japanese in all but a few markets. From my experience it is better quality at least up to 1998 when I bought my last new Suburban.
Large corporations lease those vehicles because they get HUGE discounts. Toyota and Honda aren't known for selling out to fleets. But Ford and Chevy send large numbers of their product that way.
A Land Cruiser bases at $55,000. $5000 off ain't much.
As for domestic reliability in the 1960s - even if the domestics needed engine or transmission work at around 50-60,000 miles, it is my recollection that contemporary imports were even worse in that regard. Most imported cars just didn't hold up very well under American driving conditions and maintenance habits.
Today, that is is obviously not the case, although I would limit it to Japanese cars. I'm not prepared to say that Korean or even European cars hold up better than their American counterparts.
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In the reliability stats, it seems to me the only companies you can really count on are Toyota, Honda, and certain GM companies like Buick, which always score highly. Everyone else is too inconsistent over time to be able to predict for a new vehicle purchase today.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Funny you should mention Buick in this discussion. A good friend of mine sells Buick. He switches back and forth selling Toyota for a while then back to Buick. He said they have trouble keeping a mechanic busy enough. They have one man working in the shop. I guess they just don't get that many problems over the last 10 years with Buick cars. I agree with you on inconsistency in different years. I had a 1970 Datsun PU that was great, I bought a 1976 Datsun it would not start when the temp dropped to 20 above. I have a friend with a 1985 Nissan PU that has 285k miles with no major failures. I think that has been part of Datsun/Nissan's roller coaster sales history. Same with Subaru.
If you want to play the stats game (and I understand pefectly if you would rather not) then you have to concede that companies like Buick do very well compared to Honda and its ilk. The only company as consistent as Buick over the years in the surveys has been Toyota/Lexus. And now the IQ surveys show some Toyota models (Camry) to be falling to average, due to rattles and the like, so hopefully they will be able to retain their long-term survey results.
One of Honda and Acura, I forget which, fell below several domestic companies in the latest IQ survey too...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Buick was the only other domestic to score higher than Acura, although both were above the industry average.
Honda better hope its reliability stays up there. Between this and the recent photos of the redesigned Ody, Honda will have two of the biggest new mutts on the market next year.