Has Honda's run - run out?

nippononly

the Avalanche is H-O-T!!!!!

Not that sales of the SUT will get anywhere near those of the Avalanche, quite likely.

I think the new Ody looks even better than the outgoing one. Just one opinion (he said quietly!).

:-)

logic1

The SUT is a mini-van without the back.

I am not a mini-van afficianado. Of the new vans, I think the Sienna and the Caravan are the most attractive.

The '05 Ody looks disproportional to me. I rank it at the bottom with the GM clones. For looks alone, I would even go with the Ford or Kia before the new Ody.

gagrice

That was my thought exactly, it is as ugly as an Avalanche. Quite frankly all the new trucks domestic and foriegn are ugly. Give me the looks of the 1980s and early 90s.

lemko

Looks like something somebody photoshopped - badly. The Avalanche may have been hit with the ugly stick, but the whole tree fell on the SUT!

robertsmx

Trucks have never appealed to me. If I need one, I rent one. For my daily use, I would hate to drive a truck. And if I had to own one, I would prefer a more car-like truck with the utility of a pickup. Offerings like the Honda SUT promise that. Whether it delivers or not remains to be seen. Its not about “beauty”, it is about utility. Nearly all trucks look-alike anyway.

So, what are the specifications for a “real truck”?

logic1

Ladder frame, towing capacity, heavy duty suspension.

Appears to me if one wants utility but daily drivability, there are many very adequate cute-utes out there - Honda makes three if you must have a Honda (CRX, PILOT, and the Acura).

Also, getting to be quite a few very decent wagons (or hatches if the mfg does not want to call it a wagon).

The SUT will have all the disadvantages or a truck: ugly, poor rear visibility, awkward passenger dimensions, relative poor mpgs, but not none of the advantages: real towing capability, rugged frame, power, etc.

Sorry, do not see the point of making it. Honda should have spent the time and effort making a new Accord wagon, imo.

ateixeira

The SUT is trying too hard to look butch. It ended up looking like an Isuzu Vehicross, and we all know how well those sold.

Honda will still sell a few, but it won't be in demand like the Pilot was when new.

-juice

nvbanker

Ya mean the SUT is like the ElCamino???

varmint

People said that about the Element. But Elements have been selling far more units than Honda forecasted.

Otherwise, yeah, I don't think it will have the same demand as the Pilot. But I don't think they expect to sell more than 40K units per year. It's a family-oriented sport truck; more like the Ranger, Frontier, Colorado, or Taco. It's not a competitor for the F150, Silverado, Titan, or even the Tundra.

As for the styling, I applaud Honda for doing something a little different. When I think of trucks that are trying too hard, I think of the oversexed Nissans or Hummers. But I agree that this rig will have limited appeal. Most buyers of Honda products are not looking for styling, they want practicality first. Then again, maybe this SUT will bring in sales from non-traditional Honda buyers.

robertsmx

Truck to me means truck-like utility. It doesn’t go down to exact specifics that it must tow more than 4999.81 lb.

Yes, Pilot, CR-V and MDX have utility, but I wouldn’t carry mulch in any of them. And if people could, and do, then why have Silverado when Suburban can get it done? Why have Ranger when Escape sits out there? Why have Tacoma, when people could use 4Runner or Highlander?

I wouldn’t be surprised to see more Honda SUT-like pickups making their way into the American market, just like more car-like SUVs have been replacing their “truckish” counterparts. May be, Ford will think about bringing over its Falcon Ute!

driftracer

HERE!

nvbanker

My guess is the little SUT will be driven like a truck, just about like the Explorer Sport Trak is .... It'll be a chick truck for the most part. Popular at High Schools for the wealthy.

logic1

to borrow from nvbanker, there are not a whole lot of people clamoring for the return of the El Camino.

Mulch is probably about the only light weight thing you would prefer to put in an open vehicle.

The Ranger, Colorado, Frontier and Tacoma ARE real trucks. They can accomodate much heavier loads than the Escape and Highlander. And they can accomodate much more than the SUT.

Indeed, to guage the mood of the country on trucks, I suggest you visit the Colorado/Canyon forum. While I personally feel the I5 and I4 engines are more than adequate for a small truck, every other post in the forum is whining about no V8 and only 4k towing capacity,

Maybe if the SUT were attractive it will sell. It is not and I doubt it will.

robertsmx

It might just happen!

avs007

I tend to take all those quality reports with a grain of salt. I believe you when you talk about the 35 year old woman with the buick, but I have a 98 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. This is built off the same platform as the Buick Century/Regal. I have put on 114,000 miles on it, and haven't had any problems at all. I'd like to attribute it to the fact that I'm fairly religeous when it comes to maintenence, and I use full synthetic oil and trany fluid and mobile 1 filters, etc.

That being said, I also own an Acura TL and an Infiniti G35 Coupe. Both of those cars had squeeks and rattles out of the box. In fact, with less then 500 miles on the clock, my Infiniti needed its Navigation Unit replaced. I still have less than 8000 miles on the car, and it has limped to the dealer once (tranny in limp mode), and almost towed there once (wouldn't start). The TL, has had both the stereo and the climate control system malfunction, and is currently being scheduled to have its tranny looked at. People have said that Honda is stepping up to the plate by installing oil jets in the tranny, but if you read the Acura boards, people are pissed, because Honda is not solving the problem. The problem Honda is fixing is addressing an issue that not many people have experienced according to the paper work. They are inspecting 2nd gear. However, a majority of the tranny failures in the TL, has been, (and has always been) the third gear clutch pack, according to all the people on the boards with tranny failures. The acura boards feel Honda is just trying to give the impression it is doing something, when it really isn't.

So anyways, I love all these cars, but I don't hold much value to any of the reliability/quality reports.

robertsmx

We shall see if El Camino returns in some form or not. If it makes business sense, it will.

I don't see much utility in pickup trucks besides carrying mulch and a few bags of cement or tiles or stuff like that anyway. I rarely see the smallish (or even midsize) pickup (as you call it... "real") trucks tow anything considerably large.

It appears to me, Honda SUT will be able to fit the needs (if not the wants) of a a big chunk of a typical pickup buyer. But many may not pick it up based on perception. Still those who care, would. Obviously, Honda will start with a low volume sales target and go from there. If it fails, they will have room to make more Pilots or MDXs. If not, other automakers will do what they have been doing... offer more car-like "trucks".

If the latter happens, Honda would be winning situation. If it doesn't, I doubt it will be a losing cause.

nippononly

all of this SUT furor is probably Honda's hope that if the SUT takes off, they won't "have" to go to the expense of developing a real truck platform.

avs: my main point with the lady-with-the-Buick story was to point out that not all Buick owners are over 70 or "doddering" in any way, especially the post-rental owners. This particular woman drives a lot, and had no real problem with the car up to 100K or so, but in the last six months it has stranded her twice, including once on the freeway in heavy traffic, so she is now beginning to pursue her options for a new car, I think.

gagrice

I tend to take all those quality reports with a grain of salt

Amen, personal experience far outweighs CR & JDP in my way of thinking. You have to accept that these people are totally honest and unbiased. That is highly unlikely. They are all in it for money. Who pays them is the question?

driftracer

although I get paid for my opinion in court, I certainly don't get paid to write my opinion here on Edmunds!

gagrice

My question is who pays Car & Driver, Motor Trend, CR, JD Powers? They all show a bias in their reports and reviews. Some we agree with some we don't. Does not make them any more an authority than you or I. When I testify before the Public Utilities Commision I give testimony that favors our company. Do you testify against the people that pay you to appear in court? I doubt anyone on this forum gets paid for there opinion. Maybe the moderators.

anonymousposts

So if any of the above mentioned car mags rated the domestics higher would that mean that they were paying them more? With all of the money the imports are supposedly paying these entities to rate their models highest it's amazing they have any money left for R&D. But hey, maybe that's why the domestics are still using OHV engines and live axles.

driftracer

"I doubt anyone on this forum gets paid for there opinion."

Yes, I do, actually. That's my job, in fact.

I testify as to the facts in the case, and perhaps they wouldn't use me when I have to tell the truth about a weak case! Don't know.

avs007

Some of the stuff you read in the magazines are hilarious. I remember GM gets blasted for having "techno gadgetry" like Heads Up display, saying that its unnecessary. However, when BMW puts one in the new 6 series, they are heralded as technical geniuses.

Or if a Honda product has a few rattles, its considered a glitch, but if a domestic has a rattle, it means the car was assembled from scraps. Or if a Honda/Acura product, *cough* goes in for a tranny replacement *cough*, well, at least honda stepped up to the plate and replaced the tranny. But if a GM product has a power window motor go bad, that's just unacceptable.

anonymousposts

You are forgetting that BMW has been blasted for it's i-Drive system, magazines constantly criticize Honda/Acura for it's FWD bias, Nissan's get flack for cheap interiors, and Toyota's are referred to as rolling appliances.

talon95

"Amen, personal experience far outweighs CR & JDP in my way of thinking. You have to accept that these people are totally honest and unbiased. That is highly unlikely."

On the other hand, isn't it fortunate for all of us that everyone on these forums has personal opinions that are completely uncolored by bias? :ROFL:

Nonsense. The bias of many posters here is blatantly obvious. And I'm not excluding myself from that description... I know I'm biased and I don't deny it. At any rate, I'd trust CR and JDP over the postings of many Edmunds members any day.

avs007

If I had to, I'd probably take JDP over CR. CR only polls its readers, which is a fundamental flaw in and of itself. Not to mention, in their rating system, it's completely subjective. There is no description of what is a 1 and what is a 10. One man's minor problem is another man's nightmare, and vice versa.

talon95

This kind of bias has been shown in JDP as well, as with the infamous low IQS rating that the Hummers got when they first came out. The most serious complaint was that people were disappointed with the gas mileage. Imagine... poor gas mileage in one of the largest and heaviest production vehicles available... is it any wonder that these owners were taken by surprise?

Fortunately, statistical theory suggests that owners with such a tenuous grasp of reality are distributed among all brands somewhat proportionately.

grbeck

avs: "I remember GM gets blasted for having 'techno gadgetry' like Heads Up display, saying that its unnecessary."

I think the real gripe was that, for too many years, GM used "techno gadgetry" to camouflage mediocre mechanicals and a lack of attention to detail. Fortunately, with the new Cadillacs and the C6 Corvette, GM is concentrating on the basics, and delivering good results. Even the new Malibu is a sound vehicle - it just needs a few tweaks to bring out its full potential.

As for the Honda SUT - does anyone know what Honda's projected sales figures are for this vehicle? I can't imagine that it expects to sell it in large volumes.

nvbanker

I think pretty much only GM is still so in love with OHV engines and live axles anymore.

gagrice

Yes, I do, actually. That's my job, in fact.

I meant for their opinion on the forum. I expect the postings on Edmund's to be biased. It is the feelings and experiences of real people and real vehicles. Unlike the ratings outfits that call a list of owners and manipulate that data. How do we know that it is accurate? If you say my trannie went out on a 1977 Eldorado. I have no reason to question you. If JDP says that a Honda Accord is the best riding, handling car on the planet I can without any trepidation question their motives. As far as CR is concerned I would not accept their recommendations for toilet paper. They are flat out wrong too much of the time.

avs007

No kidding. I remember a while back, CR gave a best pick to a Funai TV. When reading the article, I saw that picture quality was apparently not one of the judged criteria. It got best pick based on features and price

nippononly

"As for the Honda SUT - does anyone know what Honda's projected sales figures are for this vehicle?"

someone posted an annual 40K somewhere up above...

talon95

Picture quality was definitely one of the judged criteria, since that's primarily how they rate televisions. CR gives a Best Buy designation to a product that has very good to excellent performance and offers an excellent value (low price, lots of features for the price, etc.) A product that isn't highly rated overall would not be rated as a Best Buy.

Aren't we supposed to be talking about cars and not debating the merits of magazines?

gagrice

Aren't we supposed to be talking about cars and not debating the merits of magazines?

Many people consider the media an authority on everything including which car is the best. I don't care if you own a Honda, Lexus or Yugo. If the car works for you it is great. If it causes you grief and lots of trips to the dealership, it is a piece of crap. The media with a few exceptions don't see the everyday problems encountered by real people. I would give more weight to posters on Edmund's than skewed opinions by the media. I would never buy a vehicle without checking the opinions on Town Hall. It is a place to start your research and helps with which questions to ask the dealers.

alfox

to be just what it is: one person's experience with one car. You can glean quite a bit from a board with numerous opinions I agree, but I personally give more credence to posters' likes/dislikes than to their repair history information.

The average magazine review tends to be terribly bland and non-controversial, and therefore not very revealing. Trade rags add some useful information and stats, but usually have their own bias in favor of advertisers.

Internet reviewers like Edmunds, Carpoint, cars.com etc have differing usefulness. Those that use consumer reviews I find almost completely useless because they are dominated by either the overbearing iluvmypurchase types, or the neveragain types, both of whom have an agenda. The average buyer rarely writes reviews. I don't read them. The reviews by the "pro's" don't really add much I can use either.

Non-profit consumer pubs like CU also have a bias, but I find the bias to be very consistant and therefore their reviews are "interpretable." Much more useful info is added by them, IMO.

All of the sources are useful, especially when taken together. But none of them are gospel, IMO.

driftracer

picture, dropping my stats as they come in, showing folks whet I see on a daily basis - that, with the total numbers, I think, gives a pretty good cross-section of what's happening with people's vehicles, and more than one or two people at a time.

If my stats aren't helping, I can certainly stop posting them - the last thing I want to do is contribute to a fight, instead of giving advice and information, my only goals.

alfox

No, your posts are one of the few welcome exceptions to my post above. You and the sales folks who post here provide a real service in helping people understand the process and what to look for in a vehicle.

As long as they are real and valid keep the insights coming!

driftracer

"As long as they are real and valid"

If you have doubts, feel free to contact me off-line - I'll show you information that would be off-topic here in Honda world.

varmint

Honda has not come out and announced an official estimate for yeary sales, but the numbers they have "tossed out" are between 40-50K per year. That's about the same as what the Ford SportTrac was selling last time I checked.

sukinsyn

I have been unable to read every post in this thread...it is over 100 pages long. I apologize in advance if this has been covered.

Allow me to say: I have a 2001 Acura CL. It has 24,000 miles on it.

When it had 1400 miles on it the transmission went out. The first time.

When it had 22,000 miles on it the transmission went out the second time.

The rotors have been replaced-twice.

I have had it in twice for *other* transmission issues.

I just got another recall notice from Honda to bring it in again, for another transmission check up.

I had it in two weeks ago. They had to keep it overnight....they were so over booked with other transmissions they were installing a thingamajig on my transmission. For what? To keep it from overheating in second gear.

Now, another recall. For something else. And another trip to the dealer. More sitting and waiting.

This transmission problem with Honda and Acura's is huge. It is not a minor glitch.

My car is proof. It is on it's 3rd transmission and it only has 24,000 miles on it.

Thank God my lease is up in November 2004. I will be walking away from Honda and Acura and not looking back.

alfox

prove anything?

Anybody have actual numbers of the transmission problem?

varmint

The transmission in mine (2001 TL) went after 64,000 miles. We had a rattle in the headiner (sunroof needed to be lubed).

My '99 CR-V now has about 99,000 miles on it. Nothing has ever broken. I've managed to break stuff, but nothing has every failed unexpectedly.

So, yeah, Honda does have a few problems. Things like the transmission fiasco are real issues. But every car company has them. VW had coils, Toyota/Lexus had sludge, Ford and GM have had... well... everything. No manufacturer has a perfect record. It's a matter of how often these failures happen.

nippononly

was your transmission replacement covered by Honda at 64K?

sterlingmoss

I want to share an experience that I had last PM that may reinforce your faith in your Honda dealer. I attended a " New Honda Owners Seminar" at my dealer. The service manager spoke about issues with different models and he said that "not one of the CRV fires resulted from an oil change at a Honda dealer. They were all the result of oil changes at "Jiffy Lube" type establishments by untrained techs. When I asked why it was apparently only 2003-04 models, He said " Oh! it's not, we just had an Accord catch fire five minutes after leaving an oil change here last week". But wait! Didn't he just say that fires are caused by untrained techs @ Jiffy Lube?

varmint

Yep. They extended the warranty last year when the problems were first identified.

gagrice

Your posts are as valid as any on the forum. I may not always agree with what you say. I still consider your stats, views and opinions a vital part of the forum. I don't think the Domestic vs Japanese debates get near as heated as the Chevy vs Ford debates I remember as a kid.

driftracer

Then a Mopar guy when join the discussion, and the Chevy and Ford guys would team up against him!

anonymousposts

I guess we are just darn lucky. We've owned 2 new automatic Accords and my mother-in-law and sister-in-law both drive automatic Accords (one is a 93 and the other is a 00 V6). While we traded our automatic Accord it wasn't because it gave us any problems and to my knowledge the trannys in both above-mentioned Accords are problem-free (knock on wood).

gagrice

You remember it well....My dad was a total outsider with a Stude PU & a 1949 Packard 4 door.

driftracer

but I was born in 1963..most of my car knowledge on models before then came from books.