Has Honda's run - run out?

ateixeira

IMO the Element doesn't go for the "butch" look like the SUT. It's more feminine, toy-like, playful. But they are both wild designs.

I think the key to its success, perhaps to the success of any out-there polarizing design, is the price. Element is significantly cheaper than the CR-V despite costing less and standing out more.

I bet it wouldn't have sold well if it had been priced higher than the CR-V.

Look at the Baja, Subaru went and put leather and a moonroof standard on what was supposed to be a vehicle made for utility, then they deleted the mid-gate and the powerful engine from the concept. Price came in sorta high given the leather/moonroof, and it bombed, badly.

Now they've shuffled pricing and content but it's too late, the new Legacy is here so the Baja is an old, overpriced Outback without the cap in eyes of most buyers (I sound brutal but you know I'm a Subaru fan).

Perhaps the lesson is you can sacrifice utility and practicality *to a point* but only IF the price is right.

-juice

jgriff

Own mine for 3years & 36k mi. Tranny crapped out at 33k. This was after hearing about many CL/TL Honda tranny problems, needless to say I dumped it when I find the right 1st opportunity. Rotors turned twice & replaced once. Driver seat movement problems, plus a few other nagging little glitches.

Honda/Acura, Oldsmobile are off of my buying list.

Currently driving a Mazda-6, not too bad for a 1st year car. This will become my wife car. I plan on moving back to Toyotas, so far they have been my best experience.

gagrice

I was born in 1943 and loved cars from my first ride across country when I was 6 months old. We moved from PA to LA because my uncles were setting up war factories. I used to know every car model and the specs. Now I can't tell a Toyota from a Chevy except the brand symbol. It seems I see a car I like the lines of and the next year they mess it all up. I really liked that first SC300/400 series now they look like bleep. Oh well just keep the old ones running good, and save my money.

varmint

Well... The Pilot currently runs between $27,000 and about $33,000 at MSRP and people are paying it. The Ford Sport Trac is running about $24,000 and just under $32,000 and people are not paying the MSRP.

I figure Honda can do quite well if they package the SUT for $26,000 to $32,000 (just under the Pilot). I don't expect it will demand MSRP the way other HOndas have. Of course, prices are always creeping upward and the 2006 prices may be as much as a grand higher when it actually hits the sales floor.

boaz47

a Saturn or a Scion I can see absolutely no reason to pay MSRP for anything automotive related. MSRP is much like Bulwinkle pulling a rabbit out of his hat. It has very little to do with what a person should pay for a car. If a car is low production run and turns out to be very popular someone might see a need to pay a Suggested price. But it is only a suggested price after all. Even here where I live in southern California you simply wait till the end of the month and even Honda will deal.

varmint

I think a person should pay the lowest price they can get. But there are times when the best you can do is the MSRP.

I know I mentioned "MSRP" above, but the real number is "WTMWP" (for "What The Market Will Pay"). That often happens to be MSRP for new Hondas. But it is not uncommon for there to be a premium above MSRP because the market feels that the WTMWP price is higher.

I was simply stating that the WTMWP price for the SUT will most likely be lower than the MSRP.

ateixeira

SUT for $26,000 to $32,000

Sounds about right to meet their targets.

Mazda6 had the stain/rust issue early on. Funny thing is we have a few new Legacy owners that already dumped their 6s because the issue was never really resolved.

Maybe you just have bad luck? My Miata has been good but our 626 was not.

-juice

nippononly

LOL! Oldsmobile is off your list, now that they are out of business? :-P

Better cross Daewoo off your shopping list too, unless you want one of the rebadged ones, in which case you need to go to Chevy for the Aveo or your local Suzuki dealer...

The SUT is definitely going to be the first Honda model debut in a while that gets discounted from MSRP right out of the starting gate, unless Honda surpries me and all of us and prices it much lower than I think they will. $2000 less than a comparable Pilot will not be low enough, methinks. They should probably try to match SportTrac pricing at the start, to see what happens.

ateixeira

It's funny, though, Ford is selling a ton of those despite it being based on a pretty ancient design by today's standards.

So yes, Ford relies on rebates, but only to obtain pretty high volume. Doesn't it lead the compact Crew Cab segment?

-juice

nippononly

BUT crew cab compact pick-ups have been limited in supply until recently - now that manufacturers have seen the light and regular cabs are pretty much gone from the market while crew cabs are becoming widely available, we will probably see the SportTrac's sales lead slip or fall...

nvbanker

If the sport trak dies, the newest rollover stats will also contribute

ateixeira

Ford will have an update when the new Ranger arrives, I guess. It's long overdue. But what do I know? They sell tons of 'em.

Isn't that chassis from 1986 or so? It's ancient.

-juice

varmint

"They should probably try to match SportTrac pricing at the start, to see what happens."

The SportTrac that goes for $24K is most likely a stripped model. I doubt Honda will offer a vehicle to compare with that. So, if my $26-32K figure is correct, it would probably match a similarly equipped SportTrac.

robertsmx

Ford Explorer SportTrac (base model with 4WD) has MSRP at $27K (TMV is $25K). I can see SUT being placed close in those terms. As far as Pilot versus the SUT are concerned, the pickup bed replaces the 3rd row seat and the enclosed cargo area. People okay with 4-5 passenger capacity, may be okay with the SUT since they will offer similar convenience but slightly different utility.

We have focused on towing capacity a bit. Anticipation is that the SUT will be able to tow close to 5000 lb. But, what about payload capacity? Avalanche and SportTrac have 1350-1450 lb. payload capacity. I wonder if Honda is going to meet or beat them in this regard.

varmint

Yeah, that's what I mean. The Sport Trac that undercuts that $27K estimate does so by cutting content. I guess the question is whether or not people will want to pay for the AWD and other features that are likely to be standard. So far, that content strategy hasn't hurt other Hondas.

According to a Yahoo site, the Pilot's max payload is 1323 lbs. I expect that the SUT will be similar.

ateixeira

Should be plenty for the customers that I guess will be looking at the SUT. They'll probably haul bagged mulch, bikes, stuff like that.

I doubt we'll see too many of those built-in tool boxes added to them. It's for Harry Homeowner, not Carl the Contractor.

-juice

varmint

I think the limiting factor in the SUT's actual capacity will be the length of the bed.

I know of one fellow who has been waiting for a Honda pickup for a long time. He tows a Honda ATV with his CR-V and has been hoping to get a truck into which he can fit the four-wheeler. It looks like the SUT will not fit his ATV even with a bed extender.

robertsmx

ATVs may need at least 7 ft bed. Do we know how long the SUT may be (or the bed itself)?

jgriff

Yea Oldsmobile, I know sounds stupid, but it is a long-term reminder to not even look at the used ones. And it places a big sore spot on all GM products, since the GM corp. office was did the token "we-care" follow-up phone call,

varmint

The bed on the concept vehicle was reported as 5 ft. (60 inches). I figure an extender would add about 12 inches, but the larger ATVs are more like 75-80 inches long.

For comparison, the Avalanche has a 63" bed (plus the mid-gate), the Sport Trac's is 50", and the Baja has a 41" bed (plus a pass-through)

gagrice

Why not get a Ford F250 Crew Cab with the 6.0 liter Diesel. You'll probably get better mileage can haul all the ATV's you want and everyone in the truck will have more room and be safer.

nippononly

you'll also spend $10K more, sacrifice anything and everything in the way of handling, drop 20% in fuel economy despite the fact that the Ford is a diesel, and have a truck that wakes the neighbors that sleep lightly and is impossible to park in many places the SUT would be no sweat...also the safety thing is subject to debate, I would say (side curtains in the Honda?).

Different strokes for different folks.

driftracer

"drop 20% in fuel economy despite the fact that the Ford is a diesel"

I've owned/demoed three powerstrokes - the lowest performer, fuel mileage-wise, averaged 18 mpg - that's better than my Yukon and Bronco, both 1/2 tons with 5.7/5.8 V8s...

I've gotten as high as 23 mpg unloaded on the highway with an F-350 Crew Cab 4x4 (SRW) - I've never broken 20 with a 4x4 1/2 ton gas truck.

grbeck

If I recall correctly, you had an Oldsmobile Intrigue, which was nothing but trouble. Unfortunately, your experience wasn't unique, which helped drive another nail in Oldsmobile's coffin. Sorry to hear that you got burned with the Acura. I hope you have better luck with the Mazda.

With this SUT, Honda had better use thicker sheetmetal than it normally uses. If not, it will be covered with dings and dents after a year or two of use. Maybe "regular" pickup buyers won't care, but I doubt that they will be looking at a Honda pickup in the first place.

nvbanker

As much as Honda lovers hate to admit it, I don't think the truck is gonna disapoint in the sheet metal, even though I agree with you grbeck - it'll be in the frame. The Sport Trac is a Ranger underneath - the SUT is an Odessey, isn't it? Big difference. They'll not be equal in abilities, but the SUT will probably do fine for soccer moms and math teachers.

grbeck

It will be interesting to see the finished product.

I find it ironic that posters are calling it Honda's "Avalanche." The de-cladded version of the Avalanche is the one Chevy pickup that looks good, whereas I'm not so sure about this new Honda...

nvbanker

Does it have the midgate thing?

robertsmx

Actually, there is substantial difference between Pilot and Odyssey in the underpinnings although they share a platform. But, either is a good start anyway.

nvbanker

Not for a truck, at least that's how I feel.

gagrice

you'll also spend $10K more, sacrifice anything and everything in the way of handling, drop 20% in fuel economy despite the fact that the Ford is a diesel

For $10k more you get twice the truck. If you get it with 3.55 gear ratio it will get mileage close to an Accord and better than a CR-V. Plus haul more than two Honda SUT's. You need to go listen to a new 6.0 Ford Diesel. My neighbor Drives his out at 6AM and I don't hear him only see him go by with a big smile.

nvbanker

The new Dodge (Cummins) Diesel is also a quiet boy....diesels are changing...

gagrice

The new Dodge (Cummins) Diesel is also a quiet boy....diesels are changing..

I like the Cummins a lot. If you run ULSD that is available in some CA cities it is very quiet and clean.

If Honda would take their new Accord diesel engine and put it in their attempt at truck building, they would have to fight the buyers off. It would outsell the hybrids. We can keep our fingers crossed.

robertsmx

nvbanker:
I don’t think personal feeling is the way to judge anything, unless they can be supported with facts.

gagrice:
If Honda would take their new Accord diesel engine and put it in their attempt at truck building, they would have to fight the buyers off. It would outsell the hybrids. We can keep our fingers crossed.

I didn’t think Honda was selling hybrid trucks. ;-)

It will be interesting to see Honda selling Accord Diesel alongside Accord Hybrid. On paper, their mileage ratings (about 30-40 mpg) and low-end torque ratings (about 250 lb.-ft at 2000 rpm) would be identical and the difference would be in peak power (140 HP in diesel compared to 255 HP in the hybrid). Comparably equipped MSRP should be close as well.

In Europe, if diesel and hybrid offered similar mileage, diesel could still win given the price difference between petrol/gasoline and diesel. In the USA, both cost about the same.

ateixeira

SUT should fare well (no pun intended) if the bed really does end up 10" longer than the Sport Trac's.

SUT will give up utility to an F350 (can you even compare those?) but its appeal will be a more car-like and user-friendly drive and interior.

Any how, you could get an SUT and a trailer for less. These buyers just aren't gonna want that kind of bulk. They're used to Accords, not Suburbans.

-juice

varmint

Well, I'm not shopping this rig, so I won't be buying either. ATVs, snowmobiles, and the like pollute wayyyy too much for my tastes. The ATV problem belongs to an angricultural consultant who was in the market for the SUT.

If I were towing or hauling that much, I'd probably use a trailer. But I wouldn't rule out an F250 for the job if I needed to haul stuff on a daily basis.

Of course, if none of this sounds like the function that the Honda SUT is to perform, you'd be right.

varmint

I don't think I can count the number of times I've had to post this pic, but here we go again.

Meet the Pilot's underpinnings...

http://w01.us/pv/2003/09/17/HON2003091760521_pv.jpg

The Ody doesn't have a frame like that.

ateixeira

That does look pretty beefy.

I'm not surprised, they drive differently. IMO the Pilot feels a lot more trucky, the Ody is more car-like. Go figure, I prefer the way the Ody drives.

Maybe that's more than just my impression...

-juice

ateixeira

Now that I think about it, didn't the Ody begin life as an Accord platform?

No way, no how does that photo look like an Accord's underpinnings!

-juice

andre1969

was essentially a jacked Accord station wagon. It also had a car-like GVWR too, of around 4600 lb. I dunno what the typical GVWR or load capacity is of the typical minivan, but the first-gen Odyssey sounds to me like it would've been easy to overload!

It's funny how they say the Pilot is "related" to the Accord and the Odyssey. Looking at that frame, it looks more closely related to my '57 DeSoto than anything that ever had an "H" on the hood!

ateixeira

I agree...

And the SUT will have beefier tow ratings than the Pilot, so it might look even more different.

One thing to realize is that Honda has plenty of off-road experience, look at their ATV and motocross lineup. They'll have to scale it up a bit, but still.

-juice

robertsmx

I think automotive magazines are to be blamed for the widespread notion that Odyssey is based off “Accord” platform. Odyssey (and Pilot and MDX) are based off Honda “Global Light Truck” platform. That, by itself may have been derived form the “Global Mid Size Car” platform, but then how much of a difference do different platforms really have?

The overall underpinning is completely different between an Accord and (second generation) Odyssey. In fact, only Odyssey (even when compared to Pilot and MDX that share its platform) utilizes a 5-ring structure or so Honda claims (I will take their word for it).

ateixeira

Wonder if the SUT will give its platform a new name, "Global Medium Duty Truck", perhaps? We'll see.

-juice

varmint

A "platform" is the space in which the manufacturer builds a car. The architecture is usually similar, so they can use similar jigs and robots during assembly. But that doesn't mean they use exactly the same parts or even the same design.

I figure the frame is not an issue. It's the rear suspension that is going to hold the SUT back.

ateixeira

If they give it more payload the ride might get stiff. Keep the ride soft and it might not offer enough payload. They have to strike the right balance.

I wonder how the weight will compare with the Pilot's.

-juice

robertsmx

I think Pilot uses a 4-link IRS doesn’t it? I suspect it will be the same in the SUT. With the revision, Ford Explorer SportTrac is also expected to have IRS (like the Explorer).

robertsmx

Curb Weight may determine the payload. Assuming same load rating for the tires as the Pilot, if the SUT ends up being 100 lb. lighter than the SUV, it would be rated to have 100 lb. higher payload. At 1450 lb. or so, it would be similar to SportTrac and better than Avalanche.

ateixeira

Baja kept the Outback's indy rear multi-link suspension, but payload is weak, at just 800 lbs. The bed is tiny and it ended up being the heaviest Subaru you can buy.

That and a high initial price doomed it.

Honda has to manage the weight carefully and make sure payload is decent.

-juice

varmint

I'm wondering if Honda will do some kind of adjustable suspension for the rear. They might have different settings for towing vs commuting. It would be nice, but I figure they would have touted it on the concept vehicle.

As for the curb weight, that *might* go down (relative to the Pilot). There will be less glass in the back end of the SUT, and glass is heavy stuff. It may need additional frame members or other reinforcement to keep the roofless section rigid, though.

I wonder if reinforcement is what added weight to the Baja... Adding the pass-through may have required it.

nvbanker

The same could be said for thinking - but how many cars are purchased based upon how the "feel", rather than the murky stats and facts? I'll bet, most of 'em.

gagrice

I didn’t think Honda was selling hybrid trucks. ;-)

If Honda built a crew cab type SUT with a diesel that gets 50+mpg, why would anyone buy a hybrid Accord or Civic. You would have the best of all worlds. Why do you think Ford sells more F150 Crew Cabs than Camry & Accord put together. Practicality and usefulness...