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But it did make me honestly wonder if anyone from Honda has ever seen this thread.
As for how much he cared about what we write, I have no idea. When questioned about that, he said something like, "It's great to see all that enthusiasm... yatta, yatta..." Sounded a bit like scripted PR to me.
I know that there ARE some staffers who read and care about this site. Ask the Subaru crew about Patti.
Well, next time you see him, tell him that I said the next Civic NEEDS a 2.4L. Lol.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's fun. I think the debate is mainly about which engine the next Civic EX is going to get.
I think we can all agree that the 1.7L with 127 hp isn't going to cut it anymore in the Civic EX.
It's long overdue for a boost in power.
The debate is about how much of a boost, and how it will get that boost.
http://honda.net.my
What competition? The Escape has a V6, yet the CR-V ties it for acceleration, and trounces it in fuel economy. Only the Honda-supplied 3.5L VUE and Turbo Forester go faster than the CR-V. When it comes to acceleration, the CR-V bests the V6 Grand Vitara, the V6 Liberty, and the V6 Equinox. Except for towing, there's not much use for the V6.
But I think the real answer to the question depends on where the "small SUV" segment moves. Lately, all the new small SUVs are no so small. The Equinox is longer than many mid-size vehicles. The V6 Liberty is almost as heavy as a Pilot and weighs considerably more than a Highlander. And prices have gone from $18-20K back when I bought mine to north of $25K!
If this continues, I suspect we shall see a schism in the CR-V line. Something like what we see with the UK Accord vs the US Accord. Honda may develop a CR-V for the UK and Japan, while the US gets their own design. The US version could be based on a new V6 platform (say.. RDX?), and be assembled in it's own factory (hmm.. that sounds familiar).
That would leave the Element as their entry level utility vehicle in the US. That new CR-V would follow the bigger is better trend and match some of the other not-so-small SUVs.
"When it comes to acceleration, the CR-V bests the V6 Grand Vitara, the V6 Liberty, and the V6 Equinox. Except for towing, there's not much use for the V6."
Don't forget the Hyundai Santa Fe and Kia Sorento. That's a total of eight competing models. There are lots and lots of vehicles this size and type in the V-6 camp (turbo four in the case of Subaru), very few (Honda and Toyota only, I think, what am I forgetting?) in the 4-cylinder only camp.
I agree with you mostly, but I think it will soon become an important marketing point for Honda to offer a V-6 in this model, especially because right now it is so similar in spec to the Element, and the Element is cheaper. A little bigger, as you suggest, would also be a good thing. As for towing, no-one really uses these little high-cars to tow much, do they?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
varmint: Lately, all the new small SUVs are no so small.
I hate to see these vehicles get "up-sized." It's like the compact pickups, which are getting so big that they are virtually full-sized.
1. The improvement of i-VTEC for better low-end torque.
2. The incorporation of direct fuel injection.
3. The incorporation of stratified combustion while still meeting SULEV emission standards, thanks to the arrival of low-sulfur gasoline and improved catalytic converters.
Combine the three technologies and the K24 engine in 2.4-liter mild tune form could go from 160 to 180 bhp SAE with 15-20% better fuel economy while still meeting SULEV certification. Honda could tune the engine for more power (around 200 bhp SAE) for application on the Element and whatever replaces the CR-V, 220 bhp SAE for the Acura TSX, and 240 bhp SAE for the US-market Acura RSX Type-S.
When the Honda Fit does arrives in the USA in early 2006, I wouldn't be surprised one of the engine choices is a 1.5-liter I-4 with i-VTEC, DI and stratified combustion so the engine is rated at 120 bhp (SAE), passes SULEV certification, and gets better fuel efficiency than the i-DSI engine used on the current Fit models.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And going back to CR-V, K24B with IMA could be an alternative to offering V6. A CR-V EXV6 could cost $26-27K, and so could a CR-V EX-hybrid.
i-VTEC will be commonplace throughout the line very soon, I am sure.
As for DI, I think that may be two generations away for the less expensive models.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
i-VTEC has already become a norm in almost every Honda (except V6) and should find its way in the Civic as well with the redesign.
As for "i-VTEC I" (the "DI" version), it may follow the VCM suit, in that it will be available only in upper models for some time. At this time, only Honda Stream Absolute (the top end Stream model in Japan) gets the K20B.
Soichiro Honda: Uniquely Driven
Soichiro Honda
Honda has gotten complacement with their exterior styling of late. Element=boxy, accord Sedan=Doesn't look like a Japanese Car, Civic-too understated, PIlot-bland, CR-V-didn't take enough risks with exterior styling,. The only good looking Honda's that stick out are the S2k and Oddy and thats it. The Accord Coupe is ok but not my style. All the action wth exterior styling has moved to Acura. I wish Honda would go back to the youth brand that they were from 1992-2000.
On the other hand I really like 04 TL, 05 RL, and 01-03 MDX. 02-03 TL's look good too. 01-02 CL's were clasy looking. Acura is rockin and rollin in the 00's.
Obviously "Honda" is doing quite fine, you just don't like a few of thier designs. That's understandable since you can't please em all.
And I think carguy was just breaking down the models he likes the looks of and the ones he doesn't. Since Acura stylists have attempted to fashion a "family look" for the Acura models, it is not surprising that his likes and dislikes happen to break down along brand-name lines.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There's enough model overlap to question separating Honda from Acura. I mean in Canada, they dress up a plain old Civic 4 door and call it a Acura EL. It's more marketing than anything.
Hold it right there. Isn't the gasoline engine on the US-market Honda Civic Hybrid almost the same 1.3-liter i-DSI engine found on the current Fit/Jazz model, except it uses a SOHC VTEC valvetrain?
They're very space efficient, but they are absolutely tiny! Imagine a tall Chevy Aveo.
Not sure about the engines used here, stuff for Brazil is tuned to run on gas that is mixed with 15% ethanol so it's not the same powertrain. Suspensions are also softened up for these pot-hole laden roads.
-juice
American Accord (with TSX-like interior) is sold in Japan as Inspire, but as Accord in several other markets.
I believe the current TL is NA only vehicle at the moment. Last TL was sold as Inspire and Saber in Japan.
Point is though, I can't imagine Honda selling TLs AND Legends outside North America - they are so similar, and as robert mentions (which I had forgotten), they also have the Inspire in other places. How many models of the same size do you need?
That dealer had leftover '04 TLs and RSXs on the lot - the RSX doesn't surprise me that much, but I thought the TL was selling fast, so I was surprised.
gee: " It's more marketing than anything."
Even though this is obviously true, I applaud any effort to sell a premium small car in North America, given that most car companies don't even try. We don't all need a mid- to full-size sedan just because we like a nicer than average car. And if anyone can accomplish this, it is Honda, the king of small cars! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In case of Honda, Inspire sits between Accord and Legend in the Japanese market. Inspire and Legend are midsize cars (by US EPA standards) while JDM Accord would qualify for compact. And Legend is the largest Honda sedan to date (especially passenger cabin), closely followed by American Accord (JDM Inspire) then TL and then JDM Accord.
And of course, the reason Lexus can't move any GS's is the very one you state - it is no different in size from the LS, and hardly any sportier either. The Avalon, OTOH, is noticeably larger than the Camry - try those two on for size as well and you will see. Acura could do with a properly big car, I think, unless it is going to make the focus strictly sport from now on. Hard to make big cars sporty in any real sense.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In case of Honda, TSX and Legend are from being similarly sized (I've yet to see RL upclose in person). TL is close to RL though, but so is GS (or Avalon) to LS.
In Japanese market, Honda has only two midsize sedans, Inspire and Legend.
I'm actually glad Honda started to shorten its cars, starting with TSX. It could help them prepare better for European markets as well. This is contrary to the norm where cars seem to get bigger, something I've seen even Honda getting blasted for, right here.
you use those two as if they were interchangeable, and they are not. Avalon is larger than GS too. Huge trunk, big back seat where full-size, dare I say oversize like me, adults can sit in comfort.
"In Japanese market, Honda has only two midsize sedans, Inspire and Legend."
That is what I mean, a third (the TL) would be a bit much. TSX is a bit big for my tastes, but certainly a noticeably smaller car than any of these others we have mentioned. It is just the right size to be Acura's "small" sedan in this market.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In terms of size, Accord is the closest thing to Legend, pretty much like Avalon is to LS (GS, ES and Camry being slightly smaller, but all being midsize).
For the first time in many years, there is not a single vehicle under the Honda brand that I would care to buy. On the other hand if I was looking for an entry level luxury car, the TL or TSX would be a no brainer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm sure you're aware that Honda is a global company with designs they have to position is numerous markets. They target the Euro Accord ("Acura TSX") to the younger, sportier demographic globally and the Inspire ("Accord" in North America) for a more family/upscale crowd. Then they have to mix in different powertrain options that are unseen in North America - for instance the Inspire/Accord with a 2.0L 4-cylinder engine.
If you had Honda's product line to sell in North America, Europe, Japan, Asia, and Australia, how would you have positioned the products differently or more profitably?
Ar least Honda disquises the Buick-ness better. But watch out, Toyota is on the prowl. They are changing design philosophies over the next generation to appeal to a younger buyer. They are looking to knock Ford out of number 2.
Is HONDA doing that, or is American Honda Motor doing that with the ACURA nameplate? Because, while the latter appears true, it also appears tha the Honda nameplate itself is gettibg bland and boring, in order to cater to that "mass market" that Chevy, Toyota, et. al. want. Next thing you know they'll be selling to fleets...oh wait, they don't do that in an attempt to make their cars more "rare" in the used car market to keep the prices higher, forgetting the fact that the sheer volume of becoming a "mass market" carmaker will increase the number of cars out on the market, therefore devaluing them (good old supply and demand).
Fine with me, since Mazda's doing a better job with that particular sporty/daring segment anyway.
Not necessarily...in the 1950s and 1960s, Chevy sold more cars than its competitors, but it also had the best resale value, when compared to Ford, Plymouth and Rambler.
"Forcing" sales through fleet sales and high incentives will hurt resale value, but if the demand among retail customers is there without large incentives, then resale value will not be affected, even if volume is higher.
And sporty Buick (or Avalon) is a misnomer in the first place. That could change, however especially with Buick trying to appeal to younger crowd.
Businesses do what it takes to be successful. And results show up on the bottom line.
It hasn’t worked that way. Accord and Civic are two of the highest volume cars around while retaining top in class resale value. Odyssey sprung to the top as well as its sales grew (by way of demand). There we go, that’s the key demand, not necessarily volume being put out.
But, if we were to talk about critical mistakes, let us look at the Japanese automakers:
Toyota
Honda
Nissan
Mazda
Mitsubishi
Subaru
Suzuki
Only two stand out in a way, that they continue to be independent and successful at the same time. Critical mistakes show up in the bottom line. Doesn't it?
The fact is that lots of people and the press feel that the Accord has become 'Buicky" and bloated, totally unlike their expectations for the Accord. Someone would have to pay me to drive that fat car.
Toyota
Honda
Nissan
Mazda
Mitsubishi
Subaru
Suzuki
Only two stand out in a way, that they continue to be independent and successful at the same time."
Right now, I wouldn't want anything offered by those two automakers that you speak of. Now, I'd take a Nissan, Subaru, or Mazda over anything the two independent Japanese makers offer. 10 years ago, for me, it'd be the other way around.
Thing is, both Toyota and Honda had their roots in small companies that began making cars around the same time. Why is one so much bigger than the other?
All the others hit a rough patch, flirted with bankruptcy, and are now answering to someone else's helm, or at least being influenced by foreign investors. It could DEFINITELY be argued that their product has benefited from the foreign investment in almost every case (Subaru excepted, I think), even if it came at the expense of independence.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The fact is that lots of people and the press feel that the Accord has become 'Buicky" and bloated
Well, I feel they couldn’t be more wrong. How exactly do you define “Buicky” and “Bloated” BTW. You must have some measure. Let us talk about it.