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With the M45 on the way Japan is back in a big way, with style.
-juice
The brand with real problems is VW. It looks like the next jetta (the ultimate young persons car) will get considerably bigger and dowdy-er with the restyle (who knows about cost), and it doesn't look like they have anything slotted to take over the entry level spot.
Anyway, to me, the Accord is still a sports sedan compared to the Camry, a total appliance.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
-juice
For Honda, it will be about introducing and expanding its lineup, and also addressing a hole they left behind. It will give Honda another ammunition to help sales grow that Accord and Civic will struggle going forward (without massive fleet sales). 300-350K may be realistic sales maximum for Civic, and 350-400K for Accord. For more, Honda will have to add more cars to its lineup. And Fit will be a fine start.
As for emissions, the i-DSI is one of the cleanest engines around already, also used in Civic Hybriud. And if Honda goes with L-series VTEC (or a completely new engine, perhaps an i-VTEC), it will be no big deal either.
What do you think average age of a typical buyer is for cars that you believe attracts young buyers?
Honda sold 150K units of CR-V in 2004 (probably all time high), but I suspect this may be the "saturation point" for CR-V as well (kinda like 300-325K may be for Civic, and 375-400K for Accord). Element allowed expansion of sales, bringing another 60K buyers for Honda. I doubt CR-V, by itself, could have sold 210K units this year.
Fit could do the same at the low end, while allowing Honda to "play" with Civic.
Considering that many Camry buyers fall into the "better safe than sorry" category of folks who believe the rep for reliability, Honda could probably influence some of those buyers its way merely by increasing the warranty duration.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's why there are only 1800 posts in the Camry vs. Accord forum. No one even cares. Not even on Edmunds. And Camry owners don't care that the Camry doesn't win comparison tests. They just love thier Camrys.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Win-Win for Honda as far as I'm concerned.
There are Camry, Accord, and even Altima "people". That 100,000 Camry buyers that Honda might conquer are the cross-shoppers.
As far as the first luxury brand...Toyota is a much older and more established company than Honda. Acura is lucky to be around.
Acura and Infiniti both make nice vehicles as well, it's just that Honda and Nissan haven't done as good of a marketing job with their high-end divisions. That's not to say that they haven't been quite successful with their Acura and Infiniti product lines respectively--because they have.
Ron M.
I just saw photos of the production Honda Ridgeline pickup. Somehow, it is disappointing...not very truck-like in its appearance, but too big and bulky to be "cute" in a homely sort of way (think Element).
I don't think the North American market will get the current Fit for these reasons:
1. It was designed before Honda's current emphasis on safety for passengers and pedestrians.
2. It was designed without the need to accommodate American-sized passengers.
3. Honda is supposed to unveil the second-generation Fit in Japan this summer.
As such, Honda will likely sell the second-generation Fit in the USA, a car that unlike the current model is designed to accommodate the needs of the North American market. That means the car will be slightly larger to accommodate American-sized passengers and more passenger safety equipment (such as side-curtain airbags) and will likely use a 1.5 to 1.6-liter I-4 engine with i-VTEC. The new Fit (likely to be sold in both five-door hatchback and four-door sedan versions) will replace the market that the Honda Civic DX aims for, since Honda will take the Civic upmarket with the next-generation model due this Fall.
By way of trend analysis. Toyota is relying rather heavily in fleet sales lately (with Camry and Corolla), without it, Camry would be a sub-400K car too, and in fact, below Accord sales (a car that ranks at the bottom when it comes to fleet sales).
There has to be a limit beyond which selling in greater number would be a challenge (and there comes the idea of altering the bodystyle / rebadging cars to “increase sales”). That’s “saturation point”, IMO.
If Accord could sway more Camry buyers, it could sell another 100K of them per year without grabbing any sales from ANY of the other car companies.
How? It just isn’t practical. Remember, in the 1960s, Impala was sold in volumes exceeding that of Accord and Camry combined! But, there was little competition. Fewer choices can be a driving force, but that is far from being real.
Attracting buyers can be a challenge. You and I could probably work a deal at invoice price on Accord today, but if everybody flocked into Honda dealership, chances are, we won’t be able to. And that will throw some people off into other brands.
Regarding cross shopping, I cross shopped between Accord, Passat and Maxima in Fall 1997. Did not consider Camry after having one for a while (and had a few opportunities to rent the 1997-1998 version). But, many do, because they are marketed as midsize family sedans after all!
That said, I doubt we will see the current Fit, but whenever the redesign happens (later this year?).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Somewhere there is a wall to be hit.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My friends that bought one recently comprised two components: the wife who shopped almost exclusively on safety (they have small children) and would have been slightly happier with a Camry and its pillow ride, and the husband who liked the driving experience a little better in the Accord. Given the toss-up, they went with the Accord only because they both liked its looks better than the Camry.
They also shopped the Sonata and the Malibu. Those two were immediately dismissed as lesser in major ways, so I guess Honda still does not have too much to worry about in that regard. I drove the Sonata during the test drives - definitely not a car I would own. It was nice inside, but the drive was so-so or worse.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
ABS, Side Curtain/Side Airbags
ACE structure
i-VTEC engines
Upgraded hybrid with “significant improvement” in fuel economy
2006 Pilot
Gets VCM
2006 RL
Gets CMS/E-Pretensioner (CMS: Collision Mitigation System)
2005 FCX
Plans to sell to individual buyers
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have this feeling the 2006 Civic Hybrid will sport a 1.6-liter I-4 i-VTEC engine with direct injection and stratified combustion combined with a 35-40 bhp electric motor in a second-generation Integrated Motor Assist hybrid design. We maybe talking fuel mileage in EPA tests that could equal that of the Toyota Prius, plus "real world" fuel efficiency that would be better than the current Prius.
If they can get the next HCH to achieve 50 mpg in real-world everyday driving, I think that will be quite the feat. Prius almost reaches that target right now.
As for the Pilot, well, 18/26 may be an improvement, but it sure doesn't impress me in any way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Depends on how you look at it. The Escape is rated for 19/24. The Liberty gets 17/22. The Equinox scores 19-25. Here we have a fairly large mid-size SUV with three rows of seats getting the same fuel economy as vehicles in the "small" class of SUVs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And BTW, neither of these ratings really impress me, just as the 19/26 rating of the FWD Sienna does not.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Saw the Ridgeline in person at NAIAS yesterday, in fact I'm in the RenCen now! :-)
Very impressed. The bed-in-a-bed storage is HUGE, it's a trunk all by itself. Big enough to be a bath tub for my 2 kids, almost. Lockable, too. So you have a secure and dry place for stuff.
The bed is very wide, too, more than 4', so it can fit plywood on the floor, which no other mid-size can do. Utility is awesome in this thing.
Inside is not as impressive. The rear floor has a track so it's not flat when you fold the seat bottoms up, but the area is tall if you carry a grandfather clock or a small tree.
Materials are mostly hard plastics, more durable than beautiful. The interior has some strange touches to it, secondary gauges are small, but it works I guess.
I was much more impressed with the bed than the interior.
It's also substantially beefed up from the Pilot, and they're saying $27-32k pricing, which should be competitive.
I bet they sell every one. Think about how many Honda owners are out there already, any that might have defected to a pickup will now likely stay with Honda.
I think this thing will easily meet forecasts. They had 2 on the floor and both has people crawling all over them. There was a ton of interest.
-juice
Thanks for the feedback
From what I read on VWVortex.com, the problem was that VW didn't have enough time to certify the extra emissions control gear for the stratified combustion/DI FSI 2.0-liter engine to meet ULEV/SULEV certification. As such, the first year's production of the new GTI for the US market will have DI but won't have stratified combustion, so the engine is tuned differently than the European market models. But once the second-year production starts VW will have better emission control systems in place so they can implement stratified combustion along with DI, which will improve fuel efficiency about 4% or so.
And when we say 18 mpg, it could as well cover a range from 17.5 mpg to 18.4 mpg, and that by itself is a difference of 5% (in city, about all that VCM is expected to help). Expecting 22/30 mpg in city, in a (required to be relatively) powerful SUV with AWD would be a bit too much. Not even 3300 lb. FWD Camry (with the same engine as Sienna) accomplishes that (rated 21/29 mpg). 4600 lb. Odyssey with 255 HP, however, gets 20/28 mpg.
Now, it is possible that Pilot could get rated with 19/27 mpg with VCM. It just depends on where you start counting the estimate. Chop an mpg off Odyssey’s, or come up with a percentage that throws it down by couple on each measure (city/highway).
How they do it makes a world of difference. Running your 2000 lb car into a 2-ton car is NOT the same as getting hit by a 2-ton car!
Well, I also saw a '91 or so Accord and a '78 Newport get into it, but that wasn't a planned crash test! It also wasn't pretty, although shockingly nobody was seriously hurt...
That said, this isn’t a required test for safety in the USA, it only demonstrates Honda’s in-house testing procedure. If Fit could do well in this test, I expect it to be one of the better small cars (sub compact to compact class) in terms of safety, already. Next generation could be better with ACE structure that has been adopted in RL and new Odyssey, and promised for next Civic.
In European NCAP testing, Jazz (AKA Fit in Japan) does quite well in overall scoring (front/side crash test, pedestrian safety and child protection rating), matching or beating most larger cars. To put this in perspective, Jazz gets 4/5 stars in front/side crash test rating like BMW 3-series, but beats the Bimmer in pedestrian safety (3/5 compared to 1/5). Pedestrian safety rating is catching up in Europe lately (and Honda is mentioning it as a part of its test program for cars designed for North American markets too).
Unfortunately, I was present when a CRX wandered into on-coming traffic and went head to head with an early 90's model Caravan. All things considered, the CRX did "okay". But the van won. No question.
The Fit would be the second Honda to earn that 3 of 5 rating (IIRC). The CR-V was the first.
I was reading recently that Europe may require a 4 inch space between the engine and the sheetmetal of the hood. It's there to provide some cushion for pedestrians struck by moving cars. Of course, the article (written in the US), focused on the fact that we'll start to see higher hoods and a change in styling. :-P
Anyway, the Avalon due out in a couple of months will be rated 22/31 with a 270ish hp engine in a 3600-pound full-size car. That gives a combined rating somewhere in the mid to high 20s. It would be nice to see the minivans and large crossovers in this fuel economy realm too. That would mean a 20% increase for the Sienna and the Pilot, even the new one equipped with VCM.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I suspect that the EPA may, in fact, test every model. Being a CR-V fan, I've compared the FE of every small SUV on the Market. One of Honda's claims about RT4WD and VTM-4 is that their part-time nature makes them more fuel efficient. So I compared the AWD version of each small SUV with the FWD version and found that those with a permanent system had about a 3-5% greater loss when AWD-equipped.
That was true for other reactive designs like the Escape and VUE, as well as Honda's RT4WD.
Of course, as Robert wrote earlier, that small a difference could easily be a result of the actual mpg being rounded off to whole numbers.