Has Honda's run - run out?

avs007

Are you sure it's a fixed set of 3 cylinders that runs on econo mode? On GM's V6's, there is a limp mode when the engine overheats. The manual states the ECU will actually stagger which 3 cylinders are firing, to allow sufficient cooling of each cylinder. It even states in limp mode, you can drive with no coolant. (As long as you keep it at/below 45mph or something like that).

 

I would think Honda does the same thing, as it seems that would allow for smoother operation, since running only one bank on a 60 degree V6 seems like it would be really rough...

robertsmx

It is always one of the two banks (the inside bank is the only one firing, I believe).

 

Engine lubrication and cooling isn't changing with VCM, just that there is no intake/combustion/exhaust from the "idle" (not really, but you get the point) bank.

varmint

IIRC, the system also includes active engine mounts. When one bank of cylinders is "shut down" (it's the rear bank, BTW), the mounts adjust.

 

You can read more about the systems that combine to make up VCM here.

robertsmx

Active Engine Mount is used to reduce NVH from the engine, with or without VCM. It is one of the engine isolation techniques used in several luxury cars.

nippononly

all the hoopla has died down in here for a while, but I thought I would mention that the new Lexus GS430 is at dealers, with a price of $52K, 300 hp, 325 lb-ft of torque, and RWD. No NAV or AWD at that price of course, but it does have looks to die for.

The RL faces some serious competition. The new E350 has hit the scene, with almost as much power and amenities for a $50K sticker. There is such a sea of great cars these days...

nippononly

a news article this morning lists Honda as the only one of the Japanese Big 3 down in sales last month versus a year earlier. Toyota and Nissan were both up more than 10%, while Honda was down 7.2%, continuing and steepening a trend of the last 6 to 8 months.

ateixeira

Have you guys seen the pics? Looks thoroughly modern. Big improvement, makes the current model seem 10 years old instantly.

-juicd

anythngbutgm

Absolutely love the style of it. Very European. Looks like a winner, and Honda, Please offer the NSX style wheels as an option! They give it a real nice stance. I'm hoping that the final product won't change too drastically and I even dig the color.

carguy58

I am worried about Honda sales a little about right now. They are not going up like they did from 1998-2002. Honda is also endanger(maybe they have) of losing being the Number 2 Japanese in America in terms of sales to Nissan. I know last month Nissan was only 5,000 units behind Honda.

I do think though once a new Civic goes on sale in September or October of this year Honda sales will be up again. I think their conservatism with the current Accord has really killed Accord sales a little. Honda was on a roll from 98-03 and probably was the hottest automker during that time. In 03 The current generation of Accord was in its first of bodystyle so it was in demand heavily. In 2004 to present the current Accord has not kept up the sales pace that the last generation of Accord did in terms of sales through its particular generational cycle.

ateixeira

A friend just spotted a Ridgeline at a dealer. They'll grow this year.

-juice

benderofbows

All Accord sedans have had a conservative look; the current generation is just not as attractive (of course, my favorite was the 90-93 version).

andre1969

that Nissan is going to do something to shoot themselves in the foot and start losing it again. They're kind of like a Japanese version of Chrysler, where they seem to have a good stretch, and even become a leader, styling-wise, but then find a way to botch it up with poor marketing, quality issues, or when some market turmoil hits it puts them back in their place.

I could see Nissan overtaking Honda for a bit, but I don't think they can maintain it.

ateixeira

Civic at Geneva.

-juice

stickguy

for no particular reason, I have decided that I want one of those Civics. Not in burnt orange though, and only the 5 door hatch.

I think they are missing a good opportunity if they don't bring over a slick package like that. It looks like a 3 door at least.

Honda used to have some nerve. Now, it seems like they err on the side of caution too much.

Wonder what the 4 door sedan the US is going to get will look like, and if there will be anything else besides a 2 door coupe?

I think the US market is going to heat up for mini-boxes (like Europe already has). Saw a picture of the new Dodge replacement for the Neon, the A3, etc. Is the Fit going to "fit" this niche?

nippononly

OK, OK, everyone is hot for this hot-looking little Civic they are showing at Geneva. Now imagine it with regular old green or silver paint, and 15" rims. Suddenly it looks like a huge automotive egg. Not unlike the Focus hatches. There is a fine line here between the ZX3 and the Echo two-door in terms of ugly egginess versus decent looks (the Echo being the ugly one of that pair to me, the Focus just OK). I am not yet sure which side of the line this new Civic is on, to my eye.

Apart from that, I love the front end, and it is a definite improvement on the current model (not too difficult an accomplishment, by the way).

But indeed, the way Honda's car sales woes have finally fleshed out over the last year, it is clear that Civic isn't the real problem, it is the Accord that is way down. I am one to think that midsize mainstream sedans do not sell much on looks - most of their buyers don't care very much - so I am convinced it is that Accord is high priced compared to its competitors. The no-A/C DX excepted. (and who doesn't want A/C? I mean, really)

I saw an article in the last few days that said next year for the new Civic's arrival date, but I am sure it will have to be fall this year as an '06 MY debut. And the CRV should follow not too long after that with a complete revision.

Come to think of it, there is not much that is really new at the Honda store, except for the hybrid variants and the just-now-arriving Ridgeline (just saw one at my Honda dealer this morning, so they are starting to arrive - looks big and blocky, similar to Avalanche in that respect). That might be their big problem right now. The new Civic this fall will probably juice things up some, although the current 5-year-old one has certainly been maintaining very respectable sales numbers.

andre1969

of that Civic concept car. It's probably the most muscular looking front-end ever to be associated with a Civic...kinda makes me think of a Cylon from Battlestar Galactica! (the "real" ones from the 70's, not that cgi crap they came up with for the new ones before they made them look human)

It needs to be attached to a more rugged, muscular-looking body though, and not the little egg-shaped thing that it currently sits on.

ateixeira

This is for europe - size matters. They need a small package with good interior space.

What if Honda had a US-spec Civic sedan, but then brought over the Civic coupe to be their Si model? Si could even be the name of the car, drop Civic for that model completely.

If the RSX dies, they could have an Si coupe and an Si hatch. The Civic could stay vanilla and these models could be a lot hotter.

What do you think?

-juice

nippononly

RSX makes no sense in the new Acura line-up, and I would hate to see them waste even one nickel producing a two-door version of the TSX, to be called the new RSX. There is just too small a market for large luxury two-doors. Certainly the death of the CL proved that. However, they could probably sell a convertible two-door TSX quite profitably.

If they kill the RSX and market an Si coupe and hatch, I want to see at least one of the two have a really hot engine, like the type-R plan that someone above mentioned. 200 hp for the hatch, 240 for the coupe, or something like that. *drools*

But I would not call it Si - too confusing, not memorable, and besides they will probably want to use that designation again for other models. But how about..........PRELUDE??!! The perfect name is just waiting in the wings to be reinvented. Plus, if they did that, they could eventually turn the S2000 into a Prelude convertible, and make more sense out of the whole line-up. It would be better than just letting the S2000 drop into oblivion, as it now appears destined to do.

ateixeira

Imagine this lineup:

Civic sedan (US vanilla model): DX, LX, EX
Si coupe (euro): base and Type R
Si hatch (euro, 3 and 5 door): base and Type R

No overlap at all, and the sedan could be entirely practical with no backlash. The coupe and hatch could use the Euro platform and would not have to be held back by the practical requirements of the sedan.

Build the Civic for Jennifer, the Si hatch for her brother, Jake. The Si coupe for her older, more sophisticated brother, Joel.

Drop the RSX after those are out and few would miss it.

-juice

nippononly

love that idea, but I have no confidence that Honda would ever bring that many variants of the Civic to the U.S., especially not the hatches after the 02-05 Si sales experience.

stickguy

checked on another site, and the write-up they had was fall arrival, with the line-up being 4 door, coupe and Si coupe. No hatches of any kind.

I do like the Si, but don't think I would do another 2 door unless it was at least a hatch, and it would have to be awful sweet to tempt me back into a compact 4 door.

I still like cars in the vein of the Civic 5 door, Mazda3 5 door, WRX wagon. I actually really like the BMW 3 series wagon. Maybe I should just go get a used one of those??

Anyway, I still think honda is missing out on some sales not having a hatchback variant. The 5 door looks so slick, no reason for a 3 door.

andre1969

and I was finally starting to warm up to the RSX! Mainly because it's the only Civic variant that I can fit in the front seat of fairly comfortably...

varmint

"Honda used to have some nerve. Now, it seems like they err on the side of caution too much."

I think it depends on which vehicle line you look at. IMO, the Ridgeline and Element certainly aren't too cautious. It's an Acura, but the TSX was something of a risk. But I agree the 2001 Civic wasn't enough of a jump in the areas where public opinion is focused. Honda increased the sensible attributes of the vehicle (safety, comfort, etc.), but they didn't bolster anything to inspire passion.

varmint

How about they label the next Civic Si with the name C2000? That would be in keeping with the body style and displacement combination Honda started with back in the 60's. Having something in common with the S2000 (which aught to be S2200) can't hurt either.

Truck sales are up. The new Ody and Ridgeline will increase the floor traffic. The CR-V was recently given it's mid-life upgrade, so sales should stay steady through the end of the year. About the same time the bloom wears off that, the Element and Pilot will both get mid-life upgrades. So truck sales are safe for the next few years.

I disagree with Nippon's suggestion about the 2007 CR-V. If I understood him correctly, his post suggested that it would arrive soon after the 2006 Civic. I don't think so. The CR-V is typically released in October, so we're looking a full year and a half. I kinda expect they'll want the RDX to have the limelight to itself for a while. Another reason not to release the CR-V until late 2006.

It's car sales that need a swift kick in the buttockamous. The only new product we've seen in car form is the Hybrid Accord. The hybrid is a good car to provokes interest within enthusiast circles, but not the sort of thing that pulls large numbers into the showroom. So I expect cars sales will be low until we see the Fit and 2006 Civic. The only other short term hope is an extensive mid-life upgrade for the Accord.

stickguy

honda has done remarkably well with cars over the years with only 2 lines effectively spreading over 3 size classes. If they bring over the Fit (or whatever it will be called) for the smaller/cheaper/entry level buyer, the Civic won't have to stretch so far down, and conceptually can move up market, allowing the Accord to do the same.

Honda also siphons off some of their own sales by having Acuras that are the natural next step for Honda buyers, so you really need to look at Acura and Honda in aggregate to see how they are doing with car sales.

ateixeira

Fit is popular in Brazil, it just earned the top score in owner satisfaction from a major mag down there.

It has one particularly neat feature - the rear seat back back can fold up (like the Ridgeline now that I think about it) to fit really tall items.

The passenger seats also folds flat.

When you sell a small car is has to be versatile, and I think the Fit got it right.

-juice

nippononly

no, I was thinking fall, preferably summer '06 for the arrival of the new CRV.

C&D just voted Odyssey best van again, making that four years out of the last five, and given its track record I think its sales are assured.

I really hope Honda has planned ahead on the Civic/Fit overlap and has taken steps to prevent it. It would be nice to see Civic turn into a really nice, well-equipped small car (a la Jetta but without the problems), now that Acura really doesn't have any small cars any more (except the RSX, which many including me seem to think is in its last generation). I am all for killing the DX entirely for the '06 Civic, with the Fit arriving at the same time. It needs better appointments next time around too, and a HUGE reduction in hard plastics inside.

varmint

Sorry, my bad on the CR-V release time.

Yes, taking the Civic up a notch into Jetta territory has its appeal. But I think we have to expect sales volume to decline with such a move. Obviously, the Fit would help in that regard, but people will perceive losses as losses no matter whether they are planned or not.

On the other hand, moving the Civic up-market sounds a lot like what Nissan tried with the Altima and Maxima for years. With the current Altima, they abandoned that plan. The Mazda 3 & 6 seem to have some problems here. And, to be frank, VW hasn't done all that well with the two-pronged attack on the middle market. While both the Jetta and Passat are good cars, the costs are doubled chasing the same group of people Honda has traditionally handled with one car.

I don't think it's a good idea unless the market decides that the segment is fragmenting. That may be happening, but Honda cannot force it to split.

nippononly

if the Fit is going to "handle" the $12-15K price spectrum, then the Civic should be firmly ensconced in the $16-20K segment, if you ask me. A sticker of $16K should buy a pretty nice Civic, IMO. That is the current price of the LX 4-door. I think it could be a much nicer car inside and Honda could still afford to sell it in '06 guise for $17K MSRP. The Corolla would be cheaper, but that car could also stand some interior improvements. Jetta would still cost more. And that is roughly the sticker of the new Cobalt as well.

Do that with the new Civic, and you would still add sales between Fit and Civic versus the Civic alone currently.

explorerx4

toyota is kicking their butt(and a lot of others too) because they are giving the consumer what they want. for 50k(acura) people want a v8 not a v6. in a truck people want a v8 not a v6. for entry level lux, a v6 is ok.
look at hybrids, honda took existing platforms and added some hybrid tech. toyota built a unique vehicle and said 'this is my hybrid'.

ateixeira

People are balking at new Jetta prices. Let's see if they can get much volume.

I agree with dropping the DX when the Fit does arrive, but not with moving it up in price - people cross shop with Corolla and would buy more Toyotas.

-juice

nippononly

the '06 LX I envision would be a noticeably better car than the Corolla, so perhaps it could command a small price premium.

I must admit to having a half second of thinking Honda dealers could use the comeuppance when I heard that Honda sales remain significantly down into the new year.

ateixeira

The mainstream sedan segment is brutal. Toyota had to come up with a cheaper base model to compete with the Accord DX. People still do price shop.

It would be risky, at least.

You bring up VW as an example but VW is kinda struggling now after their upscale shift.

-juice

gee35coupe

And comparing anyone to Toyota right now isn't even fair. They are blowing up. NO ONE can compete with Toyota right now. And now that they have made design and performance a priority again, they are gonna be unstoppable. They have some of the deepest pockets in the world.

carguy58

In my opinion Honda should have styled the current Accord like the youthful 96-97 model to keep up with the sedan market in styling(mainly with Altima and 6) but they went the other way into complete conservatism. I think when you go back in time you will say out of the 4 Japanese Auomakers of making 4 door sedans(Mazda, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda.) Honda was the main loser in terms of sales on this current generation of Japanese 4 door sedans. Mazda, Nissan, and Toyota all gain ground from their previous generation 4 door sedans while Honda has lost sales from the previous generation Accord.

carguy58

"that Nissan is going to do something to shoot themselves in the foot and start losing it again. They're kind of like a Japanese version of Chrysler, where they seem to have a good stretch, and even become a leader, styling-wise, but then find a way to botch it up with poor marketing, quality issues, or when some market turmoil hits it puts them back in their place."

The only time Nissan sales really down were from 1995-1999. Before the 2001-2002 when the Altima was released Nissan's best selling year was 1994. After that they put out cars like the 95 Sentra which was a flop. The 95-99 Maxima sold pretty well but I think Nissan had to poor incentives in order for that generation Maxima to penetrate the market well. The 98-01 Altima did not sell as well as the 93-97 Altima did.

"I could see Nissan overtaking Honda for a bit, but I don't think they can maintain it."

I don't know about that I like Honda alot better than Nissan but Nissan has more of a truck line-up top sell than Honda does. The main product that is in demand right now in the US is trucks. H

carguy58

toyota is kicking their butt(and a lot of others too) because they are giving the consumer what they want. for 50k(acura) people want a v8 not a v6. in a truck people want a v8 not a v6. for entry level lux, a v6 is ok.
look at hybrids, honda took existing platforms and added some hybrid tech. toyota built a unique vehicle and said 'this is my hybrid'."

Yeah but Toyota has been gaining market share for years in the US. I think they have gained 5% market share since 1998. Nobody is going to stop Toyota. The only thing Toyota has to work on is their styling. I see improvements in their styling with the 06 GS too. Toyota also has a new guy in charge of design and he has said Toyota will put more emotion into their styling with the next Camry and Corolla. If Toyota can get the young buyer they'll be scaring the Domestic Big 3 big time.

varmint

People have been saying that Honda needs to add cylinders for years. Yet Honda keeps winning accolades and sales with smaller engines.

The Insight is a unique chassis. Honda has both the most extreme hybrid and the most conservative.

As for Nissan, I wonder about them, too. They hit the market big with their VQ series of engines. But I'm not sure what they can do next? Their trucks are not doing all that well. About the most exciting stuff from them is coming out of Infiniti. But the things that make Infiniti's new models great would not necessarily translate well to Nissans.

nippononly

"I don't think Honda is arrogant."

I don't either, but I think many Honda dealers/salespeople are. And some Toyota places are beginning to be like that too - "we are Toyota. We are so big, we don't need YOU at all. Suck it up and pay close to sticker, or you can hit the street you came in off".

If Toyota can give its competitors seminars on efficient production techniques, then Saturn should give other companies seminars on good sales relations, and all Honda dealers should be required to attend as a condition of keeping their franchise. Honda's poop stinks just like everyone else's.

gee35coupe

That's nothing new. Honda's too. But most of thier products are ARE superior to most competitors offerings.

explorerx4

the first acura model was what? did it live up to it's name?
honda as a corporation, makes fine cars, but toyota gives consumers what they want.
honda seems to be controlled totally by engineers.
the attitude seems to be 'we know what is best for you' and that is what they offer.
on another board, they were suprised that tundra sales were up so much. can you guess why?

nippononly

"the first acura model was what? did it live up to it's name?"

Twin models were the Integra and the Legend, introduced at the same time at the inception of the Acura brand.

And to say they lived up to their name would be an understatement - they were probably the best cars Honda has ever built. Including all the current Acuras. And they were very popular, giving the young Acura brand a very solid footing upon which to stand.

"on another board, they were suprised that tundra sales were up so much. can you guess why?"

I am totally not understanding this remark.

explorerx4

since toyota is kickin honda's butt as far as marketing goes, how about this for a honda commercial?

honda engineer is told by his boss to design a new most fuel efficient vehicle using their new hybrid technology. he respectfully accepts the challenge.
cut to a presentation where he is extolling the virtues if the 'insight'. all the while, visions of an acura nsx on a road course are going through his head.

next, same engineer is told by the same boss to design a civic that is at least 50 percent(or whatever) more efficient that a regular civic, using the hybrid technology. he respectfully accepts the challange.
cut to him giving a presentation on the 'hch'. all the while visions of 'fast and furious' civics are going through his head.

finally, same engineer is told by his boss, "design us a new accord using the hybrid technology". he respectfully accepts the challenge. then he gives sly smile. cut to him giving a presentation on how much the fuel efficiency has been increased and the emissions lowered. then show a 'hah' driving around the same road course as the nsx.

grbeck

explorerx4: honda as a corporation, makes fine cars, but toyota gives consumers what they want.
honda seems to be controlled totally by engineers.
the attitude seems to be 'we know what is best for you' and that is what they offer.

The influence wielded by Honda's engineers is a part of its corporate identity. Take that away - or greatly reduce it - and the character of Honda's products changes, and not necessarily for the better.

Plus, considering Honda's long-term sales growth, I'd say that the company has done a pretty good job of giving customers what they want, with an occasional misfire.

Right now, the Civic is stale, so its sales are down. But a new one is due this fall.

Accord sales are down, but I wonder how much of that is because of two factors:

1. Honda refuses to play the incentive game or unload excess production on fleet customers; and

2. some potential Accord customers are opting for the Acura TSX.

canadianbacon

"honda as a corporation, makes fine cars, but toyota gives consumers what they want.
honda seems to be controlled totally by engineers.
the attitude seems to be 'we know what is best for you' and that is what they offer."

Honda and Toyota produce for the most part completely different vehicles, with completely different buyers in mind. Demographically, Honda aims for younger to middle-aged buyers, as evidenced by their lack of a full-size vehicle (ignoring the Acura RL) who psychographically (I know that's the wrong term) demand above-average quality control, a certain amount of joy in the driving experience, and a presentation of youthfulness, if nothing else. Hence Honda's engineering moves in this direction, as evidenced by their emphasis on a loose, fun to drive powertrain, light chassis, and an image that targets the young tuner market and the like.

Toyota on the other hand, for the most part (I'm thinking of their high-volume products, such as Corolla and Camry) focuses on durability, safety, extremely efficient powertrains (1.8 liter engines that produce 180 HP and still get over 28 mpg come to mind) and a generally relaxed driving experience with little frills built into it. And they are extremely good at building just that type of vehicle, AND, at finding a market for them.

For each company however, their target markets are very clearly laid out, and they only truly clash in the same markets in which all major makers meet, namely compact and mid-size cars. Even their SUV's and minivans are radically different from one another. The fact is Honda is a small-time carmaker worldwide compared to Toyota, so I doubt either truly cares what the other does in those specific markets.

npaladin2000

You know, that's probably one of Honda's biggest mistakes to this point, is not letting that poor engineer out of his brain. Especially with everyone else selling "fast and furious" compacts like the WRX, Focus ST/SVT, Mazda3, Cobalt SS etc. While everyone else was doing this, Honda was selling "Hey we're Honda and this is the Civic. That'll be $15k for the car and $2k surcharge for the Honda nameplate." Though I can hardly blame them for hiding the Si a bit, but it ain't because it's a hatch, it's because of a lack of performance, grins, and what Mazda calls "Zoom Zoom!" After all, the Focus SVT sold well enough, Focus and Mazda hatches sell well, and so do Impreza/WRX "wagons." But while these guys started catering to the "grins" market (and Nissan started giving away Sentras) Honda basically abandoned it, and now it may be too late to get it back completely.

Also, nearly EVERY other manufacturer is selling a useful hatchback or micro-wagon in the US now. Elantra, Kia Spectra5, Focus ZX3/5, Mazda3, the vaunted Impreza, the Matrix, the next Neon and current PT Cruiser, and even Chevy has the HHR coming. Honda has nothing to compete with any of these; the closest they can come is the CR-V, which is more expensive for what you get than many of the others. It's also a "big tall SUV" whereas the others are compact little versatile runabouts. It may be primarily an image difference, but it makes a difference.

That plus stuck up dealers who think they're selling BMW was enough to drive a lot of people to Toyota and Mazda.

gee35coupe

The SVT didn't sell that well. They limited them to around 5000 a year and many of them still had to be discounted heavily. Not to mention the resale is STILL worse than the SI.

Honda on the other hand tried to sell 15,000 Si's in the first year. Hot hatches aren't the rage they used to be.

As far as the WR-X, EVO and SR-T...They are both sedans for starters and when you compare price, equipment, and performance, you get what you pay for.

anonymousposts

A lot of people were driven to Mazda? OK.

anythngbutgm

Too bad Mazda has the 4th worst loyalty rate in the business. Wonder where those buyers are flocking to? I like Mazda, a lot, but I'd say Toyota is plucking more Honda buyers away than Mazda... Arrogant dealers can be found anywhere with any brand, even Mazda...

anythngbutgm

Hey if you don't want arrogant dealers, shop Saturn. They'll more than make up for the nice guy attitude up front with mediocre product and poor service experience in my area (Mass).