Has Honda's run - run out?

driftracer

I bought a Saturn Ion Redline in December and had a few problems right after delivery - I had an incredibly horrible experience with the service manager at my local Saturn dealer - certainly not the "Saturn experience" I expected.

nippononly

an especially lousy Honda dealer in my area, but unfortunately it is the only one for 20 miles in all directions. So when my friend wanted me to help her buy an Accord last fall, that is where we went.

We had to fight and fight the salespeople to get down to invoice and to do the deal the way we wanted, without completing a credit app at the dealership (my friend had already secured her financing through her credit union). This was even though I knew they were getting a $500 cash to dealer incentive at the time for Accords, and even though the truck was rolling in AS WE DICKERED with the '05 Accords on the back (my friend was buying an '04).

In the end, they made us feel like we were stealing the food from their childrens' mouths, they must have repeated the phrase "with Honda you get what you pay for - just look at our chart of resale values!" more than 50 times, and because we would not go with their financing they declared they had no time available in their shop to prep the car for delivery for three days. :-(

varmint

It's widely believed that the 2001 Civic was the result of Honda trying to play the market just like Toyota, rather than let the engineers loose. Yet, here we have someone bashing the Civic in one breath, then suggesting that Honda follow Toyota in the next. That's funny.

andre1969

it does seem like the current Civic and Corolla are very close together in concept. Although since the Civic came first, wouldn't that be more of Toyota following Honda?

In the past though, the Civic just seemed like a whole different breed of car from the Corolla. The Civics at least had a bit of sporting pretense to them, but most of the Corollas from the late 80's and 90's, on up until the '03, were mainly for little old ladies whose retirement funds were running out, and could no longer afford to drive Buicks!

ateixeira

Both are vanilla sedans, built for reliability and low operating costs. The Corolla is taller, the Civic has a flat floor, but they have more in common than not.

Same with Camry and Accord, they have plenty in common. Toyota was first to grow its size, but Honda followed shortly after.

I don't see big differences in these segments. These are as mainstream as you can get.

-juice

anythngbutgm

I would say the XRS trim put the Corolla more as a match with the Civic than before. I never saw them as direct competitors more than different ideas of what a compact should be. The Civic has always been about practicallity with fun mixed in while the Corolla has been like a mini-Lexus with an interior more elegant (I wouldn't say better built) and a ride and performance less dramatic.

Now the XRS throws that one out the window...

ateixeira

Differences are very subtle. Corolla is a little quieter and softer sprung, but not much.

Look at the whole spectrum, these are smack in the middle of the segment - FWD, close in size, I-4 engine with similar displacement and technology.

On the fringes of this segment you see more hatch options, turbos, superchargers, AWD/RWD, etc. Some offer a lot more displacement, too.

Corolla and Civic aim right at the heart (middle) of the small sedan segment.

-juice

andre1969

I prefer the Corolla, but for the simple reason that I fit better in the 'Rolla than I do the Civic! And, in base form at least the Corolla has a lot more power. I remember a comparison test that Edmund's did, and IIRC the Civic was the dog of the bunch, coming in last or close to it, while the Corolla was one of the quicker ones. They tested a Sentra that was a lot quicker, but it had a 2.4 engine.

ateixeira

Corolla has that torsion beam rear suspension, that's the main strike against it. Most buyers can't feel the difference, but the Civic's is far more sophisticated.

Matrix too, until you get to the AWD model. So it's strange that they have engineering a fully indy suspension for that chassis, but have not used it in the Corolla.

-juice

nippononly

I think the torsion beam rear nets them more space somewhere, either in the passenger compartment or the trunk. Not to mention being the kind of cost-cutting move that pretty much no buyers will notice. What IS a shame is that they don't put the indy rear on the supposedly sporty XRS.

To me it seems that Civic should be first and foremost an efficient and inexpensive to operate city car/commute car. With the availability of the new VP these last six months, it has returned to those roots. $12K for a Civic with A/C and a stereo, not to mention the best manual shifter in the industry. Seems like a relative bargain to me, even if the windows do wind up by hand.

Now that Fit is arriving, that mission will at last be laid to rest for Civic, as Fit will take it up. What will Civic's new mission be?

npaladin2000

If Corolla is the heart if the segment, keep in mind that it has a hatch variant (the Matrix) AND a performance variant...actually the hatch variant ALSO has a performance variant. So does nearly everyone...perhaps the "fringe" of the segment has become the heart? Leaving Honda and the Civic on the fringes?

carguy58

"Too bad Mazda has the 4th worst loyalty rate in the business. Wonder where those buyers are flocking to? I like Mazda, a lot, but I'd say Toyota is plucking more Honda buyers away than Mazda..."

That could be combined with alot of factors though. Number 1 Mazda is selling a different product than they did 3 years ago. The 3 is targeted at a much younger audience than they Protege ever was. However I noticed alot more younger people were driving the 01-03 Protege Sedans and 02-03 P5 than people were driving a 99-00 Protege Sedan. Heck, the 90-94 and 95-98 Protege were like directed at to more of a middle aged buyer(in'm not saying that that is a bad thing though.) Mazda did not have the RX-8 in 2001 either. Mazda did not have the 6 sedan. Number 2 factor is resale value: When People buy Mazda's they expect resale value to be as good as Honda, Toyota, and Nissan and its not statisicilly. They panic they are losing alot of money in buying a Mazda so they go to Honnda, Toyota, or Nissan after they are done with their Mazda purchase. In reality, your resale value after 5 years of ownership you can wash your hands with a resale of any car I think. 3. Customer Service-People complain about how customer service at Mazda dealerships are bad but yet Toyota or Nissan is not that much better than Mazda at customer service. I saw a survey in dealer satisfaction a few years back and Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Mazda were right together at the bottom. I did look at a suvey after that and Honda was up a little bit more up on the list than they were before but not not by that much of a margin.

carguy58

"Both are vanilla sedans, built for reliability and low operating costs. The Corolla is taller, the Civic has a flat floor,

They younger buyer is still with the Civic though(although not like the 92-95 and 96-00 models.) The Corolla is very nice well packaged though from what I have seen in photo's and my Mom has rented a Corolla one time. My conclusions from what I have seen of it: the interior is very very nice, very generous room for a compact car. However the dirving position is awkward. I observed from the car that my Mom rented. I had the opportunity to sit in one but at an auto show but I didn't like the looks of it most notably the back end.

On a side note I have sat in a Mazda 3 hatch and I found the roofline too close to my head. I could not fit comfortably. I could fit very comfortably in the Mazda 6 hatch but not the 3 hatch. I wonder if the 3 sedan would have more interior room than than the 3 hatch but I doubt it. I could actually fit in the backseat comfortably of a 93 Mazda Protege but not fit comfortably in an 04 Mazda 3 Hatch?

"but they have more in common than not."

I don't know the Civic is still precieved is a car that is still precieved more sportier in terms of driving dynamics than the Corolla I think.

"Same with Camry and Accord, they have plenty in common. Toyota was first to grow its size, but Honda followed shortly after."

I have sat in both current generation Camry's and Accord's(coupe model.) The interior in the Camry is very bland. The Accord uses better quality interior plastics than the Camry uses. I should note the last generation Camry the interior was good but still not as good as the last generation Accord interior. With the Accord you'll notice cost cutting on the materials on the doors(this was with the coupe model though.) The materials by the radio and A/C buttons are very high quality though. Also like Civic vs Corolla The Accord I would think would be more sportier in driving dynamics than the Camry is. I should note I have a Honda product(02 Acura CL) and I think the ride combines the best of luxury and sport. For the record I don't buy cars for the ride but I;m just stating my opinion. I buy cars for the style and quality of interior plastics.

explorerx4

http://www.carbuyersnotebook.com/Feb_Cars.jpg

andre1969

that I notice the Camry's cheapness is on the base model. The midlevel and uplevel models are pretty nice, though, but I think the Accord's interior still outclasses the Camry in all trim levels. The Accord's front seat also goes back further, so I just find it to be a more comfortable car to sit in.

nippononly

one thing I like about the Camry seats is that they are very cushy. This is definitely not a driver's car, but it is a GREAT highway car.

By contrast, Accord's seats are firmer, although still fairly plush. Sit in one for the four hours between gas stops and you might rather be in the Camry.

Different strokes for different folks...

ateixeira

nippononly: that's why I suggest a two-car approach to the Civic's segment. Use the euro car for the sporty angle, and the sedan for the utilitarian side. Then the ones that get the sedan won't really complain about the cost cutting anyway.

I believe the Corolla S brought a lot of younger buyers to Toyota, at least that's what I heard. Image is everything I guess.

Generally speaking they are softer sprung and more quiet than competitors, and that seems to sell, even if demographics aren't ideal. Scion is addressing that.

-juice

carguy58

I wonder since the 06 Civic will have ABS for each model trim(DX, LX., ES) wether that will force Mazda and Toyota to offer standard ABS all across their respective 3 and Corolla model lines. Remember Honda when they introduced the 03 Accord Honda started offering ABS for every level trim of Accord. Mazda and Toyota had to follow Honda's lead and started offering ABS standard across the board for all trim levels of 6 and Camry. Mazda did not offer ABS for 6i(4cyl models 6's) standard. They did however with the 6s model(6 cyl 6's.) I think Toyota previously before 05 offered standard ABS on all 02-04 6 cyl model's and 4 cyl XLE Camry;s but not about the 4 cyl LE model though I'm not particulary sure.

ateixeira

It puts pressure, certainly. But some cars in the segment have had ABS standard for a while now. Honda may be trying to offer a wider spread of price and content.

-juice

stickguy

Isn't the next Civic supposed to have ESC standard (part of Honda's campaign for safety), or is that limited to airbags?

At this point, it would seem easier to just make it standard. It can't cost that much more, and will be simpler to have one set up.

ateixeira

Recent positive publicity for stability control might mean customers would demand it.

They just need to make sure they gain more customers with this feature than they would lose due to a higher price.

-juice

varmint

Cars will have ABS and a full compliment of airbags (front, side, and curtain) on every model, every trim. Trucks get ABS, airbags, and VSA all around. I guess they figure the trucks have a greater need. And, I'm willing to bet, the greater profit margin on trucks means the hit to the wallet is easier to take.

Originally, Honda tried to push VSA as a performance tool, not a safety upgrade. So it went to the Acuras on Type S models first. I expect it will migrate to all Honda cars, but Acura will probably want to have a new toy first. For marketing reasons, they need to have something above and beyond what Honda gets (perhaps SH-AWD). It'll take time to work that into the line.

mariner7

Yesterday NYT had an article on Honda. It said Honda didn't want to build full size V8 truck because it meant investing $1B. Honda's annual profits are about 3-4B, surely it could've spared one of those. Nissan invested $2.5B on the Titan. Its frame also spawned Armada, Pfinder, Frontrier, X-terra & QX56, so it's probably money very well spent.

Same thing with a V8 for RL, Honda didn't want to invest. Meanwhile all that money for F1, and your team probably won't come close to a championship.

Honda doesn't seem comfortable taking any risks. Quite a change from the Honda that introduced the first premium Japanese brand in America.

driftracer

but as agressive as a new competitor in the full-size truck segment has to be, Honda may be sitting back saying "Gosh, I'm glad we're not responsible for the Titan".

I think the Titan has given the Ford, Chevy, and Dodge (and Toyota) boys plenty to hoop and holler at Nissan about - they're saying "See, I told you so!" - It's turning out like bringing a knife to a gunfight, and having a poorly developed, ultra-problematic vehicle is very much unlike Nissan.

anonymousposts

The Titan and it's spawns are experiencing major quality problems. They are pretty and they are powerful but it's a sad day when I would say that a Dodge, Ford, Chevy truck are leaps and bounds ahead of Nissan in truck reliability. Nissan invested $2.5B but it looks like they should've spent more of that on quality control and less on HP and looks. If risks turn out like the Titan I would rather be conservative.

As for the F1 championship, Honda was second last year. Last time I checked that was pretty close to winning a championship.

mariner7

There were 16 races last year, M. Schumacher won 13, his teammate Barrichelo won anther 2. Honda might have won 1. anonymous, I agreed, Honda came real close to winning!!!

Titan's quality problems came because of brand new factory in MS. They either have already been solved or will be shortly. Pathfinder/Frontrier/Xterra are all praised in the press, will set record sales. On the strength of Nissan's truck investment, it will shortly overtake Honda in US. It will be bye-bye, Honda, which won't have the trucks/SUVs to retake the lead. Ghosn & Nissan don't have any regrets about the investment, I'm sure!

anythngbutgm

But if gas prices really do make it to 3 bucks a gallon, Nissan will be sitting on a lot of unsold gas hogs (compared to Honda). So it will be an interesting race to watch.

Kudos to Ghosn for his work in reviving Nissan to a become such strong force in the market.

ateixeira

Ghosn sent hundreds of engineers to the factory to work on quality glitches. It'll take time before we feel the effect of that, but Nissan hasn't hardly given up.

In a way Honda hedged their bets by going after a less established niche. The Sport Trac and its segment isn't nearly as mature as the F-150.

-juice

nippononly

a tidbit in Automobile that I missed before: even though the Euro 5-door Civic is not set to come to the U.S. and neither is the type-R, making for another generation of conservative Civics in the U.S., they are making the U.S.-bound models with a longer wheelbase. So in effect, the U.S. is getting NA-unique Civics this fall that are bigger (for passengers) than the global Civic, similar to what Honda has been doing for a while already with the Accord.

Honda thinks it has the Americans all figured out, but what I don't understand is why they think it would be harder to compete with sporty models here than in Europe, which seems to have a rally- or F1-ready version of just about every compact car out there.

On a side note, I thought I would stop by the VW dealer today and check out the brand new Jetta. When I got there, there were none yet prepped for test driving, but they had one on the showroom floor, and wow! Is the new model ever expensive! The very cheapest model that has alloys (and a moonroof - they come as a package) stickers at $23K, and this car is now exactly the same weight as an Acura TSX, and very similar in weight to a Camry 4-cyl.

The reason I mention it is VW USA has already prepared a chart for its dealers to display that compares the new Jetta to a Civic EX auto in a way that makes the Jetta look better, but factual errors concerning the Civic notwithstanding, they are using the Jetta Value Edition as the basis for comparison, which has 15" steels with crap wheel covers, no moonroof (standard on the Civic EX) and many other deficiencies. You have to move up to the "regular" Jetta to even be able to order alloys as part of a package, for a $4K increase in sticker overall.

I predict this new Jetta will not reverse the sales slump of the Jetta in general - despite being a nice car it is way too expensive. It put the Civic in the unprecedented position of being the "less expensive alternative"!! One other thing Honda needs to do with the advent of the next-gen Civic is hold the line on price.

ateixeira

VW has been moving upscale for a while now, probably with the last Jetta and Passat.

The new Jetta is a whopping 7" longer than the old one, though it still felt a little tight inside.

VW ought to bring the Polo over here to compete with the Civic, at least in price. That would create a perception of more value for the now bigger Jetta.

-juice

anonymousposts

Honda placed 2nd out of 10 in F1. Button was the 3rd ranked driver. Why would that be considered a waste of money?

Everyone said the Armada, Quest, and Titan would set record sales too. Last time, all three had big discounts off of MSRP and special financing.

seminole_kev

yeah, but that's kind of like just Carl Lewis and I racing each other in the 50m. I might come in second, but it certainly wouldn't be close!

gee35coupe

There is a team in number one that just can't be beat. In that case, second place is pretty darn admirable.

ateixeira

Schuey doesn't have any real competition, in fact that's the main issue he'll have with his future legacy - who'd he beat?

I'll remind you that when Ayrton Senna died he was ahead of Schuey. How symbolic.

No other current F1 driver is Hall of Fame material.

Any how, Honda learns plenty and can train engineers in the process.

-juice

stickguy

I'm guessing that the average Pilot or Accord buyer isn't at the Honda delaer because the F1 team won a couple of races!

kodename

Honda is not run by a bunch of dummies, they know their strengths will always be in engineering. You can bet they are working on many projects that hold promise.You can also bet that they are aware that quality is not a slogan or a marketing gimmick. Having said that, they ,like all business's have to adapt to the new world economy. Hyundai is not the problem/challenge that China is. To Honda's credit they are taking steps to be a player in the world market of tomorrow. When they stumble , they are quick to make the necessary change. Their size allows them to make constant change without the problems that a GM or Ford have to deal with. They tried to cover wider markets and that was a bad idea (Isuzu-Passports)They,like all auto makers are having problems, but I wouldn't count them out.

ateixeira

Honda showed the Civic coupe - looks sharp in person.

They had a ton of Ridgelines, of course. I thought it was interesting that Lutz listed it as one of 3 major threats to GM.

-juice

grbeck

...but I'll bet those customers appreciate Honda's engines, which draw upon the company's racing experience. The engines are still the best thing about a Honda.

juice - does the Civic coupe concept look bigger or smaller than the current model? It's hard to tell from the photos.

gee35coupe

Is the new Lexus IS. It looks like everything that I every wanted in my Honda. Honda better step up the game, Toyota isn't playing games any more.

nippononly

which would you rather have - a RWD IS350 or a (hypothetical) AWD TL with the current engine? My thinking is that they would be similar in price. And I would rather have the RWDer in that context (although not in this case, as the IS350 will be automatic-only).

Honda, beget thou a RWD platform for midsize sedans!!!!!

anythngbutgm

I'm with you on the IS350. At the top of my list as well. Nippon, is it Auto only? That was the whole reason the original IS never took off! They need to offer a manual or they are shooting themselves in the foot yet again. Other than that, the new car is much more "grown up" in my opinion and exactly the vehicle that would bring me into a Lexus dealer when it's time for something new.

seminole_kev

Well to me it looks like they're changing the roll of the IS from a "3-series" fighter to a "well it handles better than the ES330" entry level luxury car. So I could see them dropping the manual entirely.

Bugs me that Lexus didn't know what to do with that car (previous IS). Really a nice car but they just didn't know what to do with it, especially the sportcross version.

anythngbutgm

Just when I had hope of Lexus being closer to a japanese BMW... That's too bad.

strager

sales and market share in the Civic and Accord segments, even with the redesigned Civic. Honda's approach of one body style and the same dull colors fits all is driving away lots of Honda customers, imo.

Besides the Fit, I wonder if Honda will ever introduce a stylish hatchback in the U.S. Probably not in our lifetime.

nippononly

imagine a convertible 2-door Civic? Not a two-seater like the del sol but a regular four-seat coupe with a ragtop. I think it would sell well - look at sales of the New Beetle convertible, an uninspiring drive if ever there was one (although admittedly a stylish one). It could invigorate the line while still being a relatively "safe" risk for Honda to put out there.

ateixeira

To me it appeared small, but I liked it a lot.

Convertible? Sure, when the S2000 is discontinued. But the back seat would be tiny.

IS/GS forecasts are extremely optimistic. Lexus wants one of those to grow in sales by 600%, the other by some 350%. Good luck, that'll be impossible no matter how good they are.

-juice

varmint

imagine a convertible 2-door Civic?

A Civic with a flabby chassis and an extra 300 lbs added to the curb weight? Yeah, I can picture that... but it makes me cringe!

Don't get me wrong. I wish Honda would make something else with a rag top, but I don't see the Civic as the prime choice. An Accord Coupe with a V6 to move the extra weight would make more sense to me. Toyota has done okay with the Solara 'vert, so there is a market for it.

stickguy

seems they only have an AT and a sequential MT. To me, why bother? They might just as well make them all AT, to make it easier on the Lexus buyers. Does look like a sharp car though.

I'm still annoyed that Honda isn't bringing that slick 5 door Civic over, but they didn't ask me.

andre1969

would be cool, but I'm sure the back seat would be almost unuseable. Although IMO, about the only modern convertibles I've seen lately that seem to have a semi-useable back seat are the Chrysler Sebring and Toyota Avalon. Benzes, BMWs, Audis, Volvos, etc, all have convertibles with practically non-existent back seats, so maybe a Civic 'vert wouldn't be any worse.

The cars that seemed best suited as 4-seat (or more) convertibles were old, pre-downsized cars from the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Those older cars, for the most part, weren't all that space-efficient, but most of the convertible equipment tucked down into the "wasted space" parts of the car. For instance, your typical full-sizer of the 60's could still seat 6 people as a convertible, and still had a trunk that would rival just about anything short of a Buick LeSabre or Ford 500 today. You did notice it more with smaller cars, though. For instance, you might be able to get 3 people in the back seat of a Dart hardtop, but it ain't gonna happen in a Dart convertible!

Once cars started becoming more space-efficient, though, there just wasn't any place to tuck down the top and the mechanicals. As a result, the back seat and the trunk would really get a lot of space eaten out of them. There was just no more "wasted space" for the top and mecahnicals to go anymore. The area over the rear axle used to be wasted space on most cars back in the day. Because of the sloping rear windows, the back seat wasn't as far back as it could have been. Often on a hardtop, they'd move the back seat up about 4 inches, compared to a more upright sedan, to give the car a sleeker roof yet still maintain headroom. Plus, the area over the rear axle was raised, and by the time you took into account a rear blower, maybe some stereo speakers, and the braces for the torsion bar trunk hinges, and the fact that it was such a long reach up there, that space was usually just used for nothing. It made a great space for a top to retract into, though. But nowadays, they push the back seat further between the wheels, and trunks are now flat and tall, but not very deep, so that area above the rear axle is utilized more these days.

nippononly

apparently Toyota Press Relations published a correction, with apologies: the IS250 will have a regular old clutch-pedal manual.

OK, so the consensus is "no" to a Civic convertible? :-)

It would be nice if they had something to add some pizzazz to the Civic line for '06. I would love to see Honda do its own version of the MR2 - two-seat mid-engined coupe. But it would cost a lot for them to develop unless they could somehow use what they have already done for the S2000, and given the cost of that car, they would probably have to price it too high to succeed.