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Has Honda's run - run out?
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So, yeah, an Accord wagon might preserve Accord sales, but could easily cannibalize CR-V sales, while adding to the cost of doing business. Building extra variations costs money.
I know that some will say they want the Accord's V6 and better handling, but that appears to be the mission of the RDX. Same reason why Acura probably will not bring over the euro Accord Estate as a TSX wagon.
If we expand the Accord line into sportier and more luxurious levels with something like the Aspire, we start taking sales from the TSX and TL.
I still think Honda needs to address why the Camry is widening the sales gap. Find out why Camry sales are up while Accord sales are down, and fix the problem.
You hit it on the head for me. Just bought a CR-V. But I see an old Accord wagon parked near my lot every day. After test driving a whole mess of smal utes and sport wagons, I wished the Accord wagon was still available new in the US.
If you look at forecasts, every make is predicting a 10% increase in market share, but by default someone has to lose some.
-juice
* they already make that body in Europe
* RDX would be priced higher with little overlap
* Honda already has 2 small wagon bodies
So it would cost them next to nothing. RDX could go with a 4 banger and try to stay under $30k, but if they go V6 and price it in the 30s that would easily leave room for a TSX wagon.
-juice
I would love to see them bring over the TSX wagon, or make a proper Accord wagon. As far as I am concerned, they could have brought the TSX wagon INSTEAD OF putting out the new RDX.
But the best thing they could do for themselves right now, and quite easily it seems given the existing European models, is bring a five-door Civic hatch over for '06. They are hot sellers for everyone that has one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
p.s. I'm not a big wagon fan personally, and I don't really think they'd sell in big numbers...I guess if they already have a TSX (accord) wagon in Europe, it wouldn't hurt to try, they might sell a few.
Isn't Lexus cancelling the "sportwagon" version of the IS300?
In fact the opposite happened, the new Camry is "slumming" with the Accord by introducing a de-contented base model in order to compete on price.
So Camry had been premium and it cost them a few sales. Now that they offer a price leader like Honda does, their lead expanded.
-juice
* RDX would be priced higher with little overlap
* Honda already has 2 small wagon bodies
Acuras may be a bargain with respect to the top tier of luxury cars, but it is not the brand for the average Joe. They don't need cheaper vehicles. They need more upscale product. The RDX would fit that slot nicely.
And the 4cyl TSX certainly doesn't need the extra weight of a wagon body on its back!
Nobody in the entry lux segment sell many wagons. The A4 wagon sells less than 200 units per month. Even Volvo (the company best known for wagons) only sells about 500 units of the V40 per month. Volvo sells far more XC90s than they did the CrossCountry wagon that preceded it. As mentioned above, the Lexus SportCross was discontinued after establishing a dismal sales pace.
Sorry folks. I have nothing against wagons, but crossover SUVs are still a much bigger chunk of the market. The only wagons that sell are those masquerading as SUVs.
As I've stated many times, the Accord's decline in sales are the result of several factors. Lack of incentives is one. Increased competition is another. And, quite frankly, the styling.
What can Honda do about that? Realistically?
Honda cannot force Mazda, Nissan, or VW to stop making quick, sporty sedans. Honda cannot force those brands to target the Camry rather than the Accord. Honda cannot prevail upon Gm to start building Buicks people will actually buy. So, the Camry will continue to serve that market.
While I fully expect that Honda will adjust some of the worst elements in the Accord's styling, I doubt they will give it a complete overhaul. That's just too expensive. It doesn't need a complete overhaul, but, if that were the only change made, it would have to be pretty freakin' dramatic.
That leaves adding incentives.
Accord's stripper doesn't have A/C. Camry's does. Bad move, Honda. They should put the A/C in the DX, price it $1000 higher at $16,8 (which would still be lower by a few hundred $$ than the "standard" Camry), and then plug the heck out of it with incentives and whatnot. I mean, it is the cheapie of the Accord line, so what could it hurt image-wise?
Instead, they are plugging Accord LX "special edition" coupes right now with a special lease. My dealer took delivery on a dozen or so for the promotion, like two weeks ago. They are all still sitting there in a proud row. Maybe some Honda execs could use a marketing 101 refresher.
As it is, dealers order very few of the Accord DX, because of the lack of A/C. When I helped my friend buy one recently, the dealer had more than 70 Accord LXs in stock, and some 50 or so of the EX, and three, count 'em, three DXs. Which were way in the back and covered in dust - I guess no-one had asked to test drive one of those in a while!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I couldn't find any non-forum sites in English about it, so look at pictures here:
http://www.prelude-fan.de/airwave_g1.htm
But of course Honda won't bring it to the US. That would make too much sense!
Instead, how about a gas guzzling pickup truck or a tank-sized Odyssey?
Bring it over anyway. They could even give it a little stretch.
A tall wagon/crossover Accord would work. I think the Pilot is more traditional "trucky" SUV in execution. A more car like Accord vairant could appeal to a different market niche.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Incidentally, after waiting and waiting for Honda, I finally gave up and bought a Scion xB for $15K, fully equipped. Honda is completely missing out on this market.
I'm more in the minivan and Acura demographic, so maybe I'm biased
They might even be able to edit that really cool euro Accord wagon commercial and substitute Acura badges for the Honda ones.
Crossovers are more profitable, but there's still room for a wagon. You gave good examples of low volume wagons, but consider that the Outback - a full 93% of those are wagons.
Airwave looks pretty sharp. Mazda5 has a 3rd row, even though it's tiny I think Honda would need to match that.
-juice
Yes, I meant something more like a Pacifica than a Pilot, but probably smaller.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
for more info visit http://www.autodeadline.com/detail?...58&mime=ASC
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Juice - *If* Acura could match the sales of Volvo, it would be worth it. But that Volvo is the best selling wagon in its class. Volvo has a long history of building wagons, and a set of buyers ready made for them. Acura has none of that. Other than blind faith or brand bias, there is no reason to suspect that they could match Volvo's numbers.
I did consider the Outback. It's one of those wagons masquerading as an SUV. In fact, Subaru now classifies it as a truck. A classification you yourself have defended.
Like I wrote before, Honda probably could add another such crossover to their line. An Accord-sized tall wagon with AWD would be a strong seller. We already know this because the CR-V is an Accord-sized tall wagon with AWD and it is selling just fine.
But you're right in that Volvo and Subaru have a history of repeat wagon buyers, so people go to those dealerships looking for wagons.
I think a lot of people feel the Pilot is a bit too tall/heavy and would like to see something a little sportier but about the same length.
-juice
Of course now we're talking volumes way too small to peak their interest...
-juice
varmint: Honda is one step ahead of me then! Now dealers need to actually order some. And it would have been better if they could have beaten the Camry standard by a few hundred $$, since Toyota has the $750 rebate running and will inevitably run a small rebate on the Camry for the remainder of its run (since its time is now limited - new model middle of next year).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Natural gas and hybrid Civics will continue, side curtain airbags and ABS will be standard across the line as expected.
If the new car's looks come close to the "concept" revealed at the auto shows this winter, and I expect they will, the new Civic should steal plenty of sales back from Corolla, what with the performance I expect it to have with these new engines.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
The ironic thing about your comment is that from '94 on, 1.8L and 140 hp is EXACTLY the size and output of the Integra's base engine. I wonder if they just brought it forward, modified with i-VTEC to vastly improve the old car's emissions and mpg? :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think with the price of gas what it is (and rising), I think we've hit the peak of the HP race and you'll see the pendulum start to swing back the other way somewhat.
The interesting piece was the stats chart. The Maxima was the fastest of the bunch, running 0-60 in the low 9s IIRC. The others went high nines/low teens. The Max put out a whopping 128 HP. Trip mileage (observed) was about 19-22.
But, these cars were light compared to todays models. They went from about 2,600 to just a tick over 3,000 lbs.
Funny thing is, they also tested a new Jetta 5 cyl. It ran high 9's, and got about 23 MPG, but weighed about 3,300lbs, even though it was a foor shorter than some of the old ones.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Interesting about how HP and weight has gone up.... One thing, though, I bet NONE of those cars would get a 5 star rating or do well in the IIHS crash test...that is huge now. Everyone designs to get a 5 star..IMO, it's marketing suicide to bring out a new car with anything less.. So, unless you can go with a lot of exotic materials, it adds up in weight.
If they can get a 40 mpg highway rating out of the new 1.8 this fall, they will probably be able to sit on their laurels with this new engine, with only minor updates for two model cycles. But they cannot afford to do it for three, as they have just done with the Civic. Luckily, if that article was correct, it seems they have realized the error, and moved forward a generation and a half on the engine update.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm of two minds on that suggestion.
1. Shame on Honda for not doing more to upgrade the base engine for a core vehicle.
2. There's a tuner market for the 1.8L already in place and waiting. It's an engine everybody is familiar with and ready to customize. Although the K20 they'll be using in the Si coupe is an award winning engine for aftermarket tuning, the fact that a basic el-cheapo Civic is equally tune-ready would be a good move.
varmint: "1. Shame on Honda for not doing more to upgrade the base engine for a core vehicle."
Eh? This would be moving an existing engine (in use until three years ago, let us not forget) from an "entry lux" vehicle to a nuts-and-bolts model (the Civic). And this one should have lots more torque, irrespective of the decent power increase, than the current Civic's engine. But I may have misunderstood your remark. And I do think it would be kind of cool if there were already some tuner parts ready to go from when this engine was in use before. I wonder how much the addition of i-VTEC to the engine would mess that up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But I suppose that's not really the point. The 1.8 was a good engine and still is a good engine. But I think it's more like a "good enough" engine, when Honda could be building a great engine.
It really depends on factors we don't fully understand at this point. Adding VTC to the engine could significantly change its character. The displacement really means little in terms of actual performance, but my concerns are less about power and more focused on things like fuel economy and emissions. Using VTEC-E and VTC, as Honda has done with the K24, they can take the sting out of using a larger displacement engine. But the 1.8 isn't really a larger displacement engine. I'm not sure that something like VTC would have a significant impact.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And of course, this is only speculation, as the numbers could be pure coincidence. It could, in fact, be a brand new engine, an evolution of the current 1.7, totally new for MY '06.
As for whether it is good enough, well, it would hit the midpoint of the segment if it makes 140 hp. It is too bad the EX will no longer have more power than the rest of the line - my guess is it will become like the Accord, where the EX is just the model with the nicer rims, more sporty suspension, and a moonroof. Maybe a better stereo. But then of course, we have no way of knowing if there will still be the traditional DX/GX/LX/EX with SI and hybrids separate. Maybe Honda is going to slim down this profusion of trim levels. Like I said before, I wouldn't mind seeing the DX go away now that there will be a Fit below Civic in the line-up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)