Honda Accord Diesel????

blufz1

We will get an inkling of the Honda premium when we see the TDI diesel this spring. Diesel is a peoples fuel and it will not appear in only hi end Hondas. Why do you think they are intertroducing Diesel first in their 2 highest volume vehicles, the Accord and the CRV? BTW, the 2.2 derived diesel doesn't fit in the FIT.

ruking1

Evidently the angst has been around awhile...Even Business Week brought up that Honda was the first "GREEN" leader (hybrid) crikeys'

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_44/b4007079.htm

Be that as it may, a nice visual about the yammering.

http://world.honda.com/Diesel/

An older streaming video:

http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4030226_1a/

But then, the best might be yet to come in 2010?

April 25, 2007 3:09 PM PDT
A diesel Honda? That gets 62.8 miles a gallon?
Posted by Michael Kanellos

but then I knew the technology could make this happen,

..."At that mileage level, the car is about as "clean" as a new Toyota Prius."...

just a matter of time, market...

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9712548-7.html

robertsmx

The question isn't of premium (diesel over gasoline) but of trim, which largely determines the bottomline... the MSRP. Honda is not going to equip diesel like EX-L and sell it with a "diesel premium" over LX price tag.

My bet would be on upper trim (EX at the minimum). If you note, Honda doesn't offer base trim with V6 anymore. It starts with EX-level. You can hope for better (and I think it will be a good idea for Honda to do so, something they didn't do with Accord Hybrid, and aren't doing with Civic hybrid). When you start with more expensive trim and go from there, it only gets more expensive.

kdhspyder

Like most manufacturers they will likely debut their new technology in their top trim, that's where the most money is, then allow it to trickle down to the lower trims as demand warrants.

The buyers of the top trims are expecting to pay $28000 or $30000 or $33000 for their next vehicle. The buyers of the lower trims are expecting to pay $20000 for their next vehicle.

kmil

Will the 2009 Accord DIESEL be in the Sedan AND Coupe OR just one model? Pls email: kmil123@msn.com

blufz1

The SE edition is usually only offered in the last year of the generation. Most Diesel buyers are interested in economy not top of the line prices.

robertsmx

Shouldn't hybrid buyers too? BTW, SE trims are somewhere in-between models.

blufz1

The Honda was a V6 Hybrid, more complex than diesels,cost more to build,and I would think Honda learned a lesson.

robertsmx

Not just a V6 hybrid. It was complete with top end features. Do you not see that a hybrid or a diesel, offered with maximum features will cost more than if it were offered with base trimming?

Honda may have learned a lesson, and hopefully it will help with the diesel lineup. As it should with the next hybrid on the horizon.

blufz1

Well, top of the line diesels would be false economy for many and they would not sell,right? That's a reason the Accord Hybrid did not sell. No, diesels will be offered across the line up.

ruking1

Also if Honda takes that position, (as outlined by robertsmx) in effect that would leave VW/and/or dealerships, a lot of head room to boost their prices from what they WOULD have charged had Honda aimed to be competitive with VW. This is what "Sort of what" happeneded with the 2004 Prius. Toyota (weakly I might add) said they charged so dealers could sell their Prius inventory-normally. (market translation: for what the market would bear @ invoice/plus) However, it was common for a 6 mo wait and sales @ MSRP/PLUS. The old VW diesel $246 premium (2003) and @ invoice, in hindsight looks to be an almost fantastic deal in comparison! I am swagging whatever those competitive premiums end up to be, Honda will have NO issues in selling ALL of its inventory in whatever models it will care to make an investment in/take a chance on. Indeed it might use the diesels to bring in GASSER customers! As diesel become more mainstream (what did we ever do before diesel!!) They will of course adjust both strategically (they are already working on a 2010,68 plus MPG diesel) and tactically (more diesel models, higher % of diesels and in each model, etc. etc.

kernick

Most Diesel buyers are interested in economy not top of the line prices.

You may want to reconsider the choice of economy (as in total economy); and use the word value. Value meaning - price / per quality and functionality. If people want economy they would buy a base Rabbit, and not a Jetta TDI; or buy a base Civic instead of an Accord.

People who have bought diesels so far in this country have bought Mercedes and Jettas. In fact anyone who wants economy shouldn't be buying any sort of new car!!

ruking1

I do not think many folks who follow these things would disagree with either characterization. Not many cars and % wise do gain in value.

That being true, the real metric it seems to me anyway: do you have a need to do X miles per week, mo, quarter, year series of years, etc. How do you lose/spend the least?

Increasingly the oem's address ALL MANNER/s of issues; peripheral to the above, but in some ways key to the markets they do business with and/or aspire. So for example, a new 2004 Honda Civic, the price could range range 12k to 25k= almost 2x. This of course is not even to address the HUGE aftermarkets!!!

nanorapture

There is no reason for Honda not to put the diesel engine in the full spectrum of Accord models. LX through EXL w/Navi. That way they have a much better chance of selling the diesels without any hesitation from the buying public. If they limit the available trims, they will limit their buying customers.

The engines all go into the car the exact same way. They are the same exact car with just some extra trim pieces for the different models. Different trim levels should always be offered to give buyers just exactly what they want.

Well, that's the logical, rational viewpoint anyway.

-Nano

ruking1

I think ultimately if they get wind, indications and more importantly confirmation that this is a real hit, they will ramp it up as the (your) rational is very sound.

fenris2

Hmm, not sure about that. So far both Mercedes and VW have both limitied trim/options for their diesels. Want a sport e320CDi? Nuh uh, not gonna happen. A stripper Jetta diesel? So far, no dice...

Part of it is that the surchage for the diesel
is generally reduced from the usual markup. If you put it in a base model it may become a choice between raising the cost for the base model quite high - which is a problem for most base models I think. Or, suffer a willingness to lose money on each one sold a la Prius (used to be the case anyway) Or, to risk producing many to reduce costs BUT risk not selling them (probably worst option).

I agree that it would be nice to have the option accross all configurations, but I am not holding my breath at first.

ruking1

I think that belies that Honda already has more trim levels than VW. I remember trying to get the research together for the Civic, it was hard to focus on the real issues and define and evaluate the trim levels. In contrast, VW had two diesel trim levels. The decision tree was as simple as want a diesel? YES? two trims. Confused? Yes! GL/ GLS! Got that? YES!

kdhspyder

One another site I believe that I saw that VW intends to bring the new Jetta out only in the top trim as well. If true then essentially it will be a $28000+ vehicle.

This is what will be interesting in the Spring..
..what are the price points
..what are the new EPA numbers

ruking1

Given what you are saying, my interest would then shift to the 2010 Honda Accord iDEC -with the spectre of 68 mpg PLUS!! At that time I am swagging my (then older TDI) would be farther along (200,000 miles) to the min target of 500,000 miles. The 2003 is more than capable of 62 mpg, but the 2010 Honda Accord iDEC would have a min of 2x power and #ft of torque!!

nanorapture

I agree that adding the diesel engine surcharge to the base models makes for a high priced base model diesel.

It does make a lot of sense to put the diesel engine in the higher trims at slightly lower than cost, with cost recovery from the trim surcharge partially offsetting the diesel engine under-charge. That is, offsetting the added diesel engine cost with profit margin from the higher trim levels, and offering the car at a lower cost than if they
just added the diesel engine surcharge alone. That does make sense, but it makes sense to also offer the diesel engine at the lowest cost available (lowest trim level).

These are the kinds of things we'll just have to wait and see what happens! It will be less than one year!

I want to see if someone can actually put an automatic transmission into a diesel automobile and have it be a fantastic performer. That is what I am expecting from Honda. It could end up being the best diesel car ever made.

-Nano

ruking1

My thought from what I have seen and experienced is if anyone can do the (diesel, mating) automatic transmission well it is Honda. My concern would NOT be sub 250,000 miles. (120,000 miles is the auto tranmission fluid change interval, so two change intervals) But I would have my fingers crossed over 250,000 miles. Anything other than normal fluid changes would tend to run into BIG bux.

qbrozen

I want to see if someone can actually put an automatic transmission into a diesel automobile and have it be a fantastic performer.

Hmmmm... I'm not sure what fantastic performer means in this context.

Allison has always made great trannies for diesel trucks ... but maybe that's not what you mean.

Anyway, this comment may raise some hair ... but the auto tranny is actually what might worry me in a Honda diesel. I mean, if they were having reliability problems (granted, yes, I know, in a very small percentage), what kind of record might we expect in a vehicle with far more torque than Honda engines typically put out.

I dunno. Just a thought that came into my head when the tranny issue was brought up.

plekto

My big gripe is how all too often they give us fantastic MPG and then give us an itsy-bisty gas tank as well. So we still have to fill up every 5-6 days.

12 gallons and 60mpg... That's more like it. I'll even swap in a tank from a Jetta or similar if I have to, because I'm not going to stand for 7-8 gallons.(just watch - it'll happen. Honda will give us 60mpg and 420 miles range.

robertsmx

I doubt it. Honda just increased the size of fuel tank in the Accord from 17.1 gallons to 18.5 gallons. It won’t shrink with diesel. In fact, with 40 mpg highway (my guess) and 18.5 gallon tank, we can expect about 740 miles range to be a part of advertisements.

nanorapture

I meant that I have not seen a good functioning auto transmission in a diesel passenger CAR. Is the auto tranny in the MB sedan any good?

Honda should be able to design a wonderful performing auto tranny for the new diesel. The V6 puts out a similar amount of torque now, and the V6 does it at a higher rpm. Honda should be able to design an auto tranny for the magnitude of the diesel torque if they can do it for the V6.

The bigger design issue is how the auto tranny meshes with the narrow torque range of the diesel. A 6 or 7 speed tranny would work the best, as they need lots of gears to make up for the narrow torque range. A CVT?

I feel confident that if Honda brings an automatic transmission out in the diesel accord, it will be fantastic and function very well.

I'm a dreamin' man.

-Nano

ruking1

Yes normally this issue does not come up with folks that do not drive diesels, but I have been that space for app 4 years and 100,000 miles! It is absolutely great! Not only do you have great range, but normally you can go many more days and waste less time in the fueling process. A spin off is you can choose to fuel when you find the best prices! Dont like 4 bux fuel in Canada? WAIT and fuel in Portland Oregon @ 2.79!

plekto

No, the MB automatics are made in Europe for rental cars. 80-90% of Germans drive manuals and in fact, if you get an automatic license, you can only drive automatics(and people outright laugh at you unless you are 80+ years old for having a baby's license)

So they put no effort at all into the transmissions. The manuals, otoh, which are available in Germany on every model, are built very well.

Honda, otoh, makes good manuals and automatics.

ruking1

Actually a good observation. While I would take a pass on the gurly man, manly gurl references, I actually bypassed a Jetta TDI diesel automatic for your second paragraph reasoning/s. There was a min(to longer b/e point) diesel (automatic) fuel benefit (B/E that is) over the Civic automatic ( projected was VW Jetta TDI auto,45 mpg vs Honda Civic auto, 40-42 mpg, actual is 38-42). As time has shown, the VW automatic is more of an explod-a-matic (relative to the 400-500,000 mile VW manual transmission life expectancy). Truthfully the Civic automatic exhibits the similar tendencies. So I figured the price difference would pay for the inevitable repair down the road a piece.

robertsmx

I have a feeling that it will use a new 6AT which will be shared with V6 (gasoline) models. And a rumor is, Honda's first 6AT will debut in the next TL which should be out Spring 2008.

Honda typically gears auto taller than most others, so if it works with gasoline power, it will work just as well with diesel even with its relatively narrow torque band.

qbrozen

Ok. Well, the auto in the benz is supposed to be excellent... at least in a performance sense. I haven't driven it, so that's third-party info.

I was thinking more about the V6 diesel rather than the 4-cyl when I made the torque/automatic comment. I guess if that won't be used in a "car" it doesn't really address your comment, though.

nanorapture

Because german drivers only drive manuals, MB didn't put a lot of effort into their auto tranny for the diesel?

The germans do seem to be the only ones making the diesel passenger cars, at least for the USA. (MB & VW). Is this why there seems to be no diesel passenger car with a great auto tranny? Just because they didn't put a lot of effort into it?

I thought it was because it was a difficult endeavor, trying to match the auto tranny with the diesels narrow torque range.

kmil

I'd like to know your thoughts/rationale as to whether you think the diesel will go in BOTH the Sedan and Coupe. Personally I'm hoping to see it in the Coupe. What say you?

nanorapture

The diesel engine will NOT go into the coupe. There is no reason it couldn't, but marketing factors dictate that it won't.

Coupes are more sporty with a need for speed, relative to the sedan.

The diesel engine will most likely be viewed as an economy/green machine, with more conservative buyers. The sedan fits the conservative driver better than the coupe.

Plus, Honda is going out on a limb bringing in a diesel car. At the risky introduction of the diesel to the USA, they will put the new diesel engines into the car that has the capacity to sell the most, so that they will be minimizing their risk of the diesel not selling. That would be the sedan. Coupes are a small fraction of the total amount of Accords sold, and are not usually bought by conservative drivers.

I am 90% sure of this.

-Nano

robertsmx

In a gasoline engine, while 90% of more of the peak torque is generally available for a range that can span 3500 rpm (up to 5000 rpm in many high revving designs), in a diesel, this span tends to be about half. The torque curve rises rapidly after 1500 rpm as turbo spools up to impressive peak, but falls very quickly after 3000 rpm. As a result of rapidly falling torque curve, the power curve tends to be flat. In other words, the average power between 3000 and 4500 rpm may be very close to rated peak power (which would also explain why diesels can outperform similarly rated gasoline engine).

With all that said, it should be possible to simply use similar ratios as a gasoline engine, and I won’t be surprised at all if Honda uses the same transmission (and ratios) with the diesel in Accord, as it does for the V6. And if that happens, the following will be top speeds in each gear for the diesel and the V6 (assuming similar tire size):
1: 30 mph / 45 mph
2: 50 mph / 76 mph
3: 75 mph / 113 mph
4: 105 mph / 158 mph*
5: 131 mph / 198 mph*

So, it will boil down to tweaking transmission logic, to select the proper gear for optimum acceleration. For example, the V6/gasoline powered version will select second gear for acceleration between 50 and 75 mph range, while it will have to be third gear when mated to diesel (I assumed 4500 rpm redline for it). Likewise, for speeds from 75 mph thru 105 mph, the V6 can use third, but diesel will have to use fourth.

So, ratios can be re-used, logic will need to be tweaked.

* Theoretical speed. Top speed will depend on drag and likely, presence of top speed governor.

jaxs1

I think a diesel in all or "most" Accord models is possible down the line, but it will probably only be one trim level in 2009 because there will likely be low production of the diesel motors the first year and it won't make sense to try to spread those few diesel engines out across more than one trim and style.
Maybe, in two or three years, there will be no factory production restraints on the diesel motors and they'll be able to build as many of them as they can sell in their best case scenario.

plekto

The thing about Mercedes is that they make a very smooth automatic, but durability isn't a factor, since the cars that get them, except for the big S500/S600 are loss-leaders and fleet/government sales and the like(same as how GM doesn't put its best foot forward with the stuff it knows will end up on a rental lot)

I guess this also is true for Honda and a few others as well, which is why a few makers like BMW have decided to let GM, which understands automatics well, make theirs for them. A LOT of foreign cars have automatics made by U.S. companies. The trick is to avoid the ones that don't, because they are horrible.

P.S. Mercedes wanted less expensive automatics and part of their merger strategy was to put Chrysler's transmission technology into their cars. With predictable results.(no net change in reliability)

Manual? Solves the problem entirely. The other trick is to get the same engine that they offer overseas. This is usually a 2.0-2.6L I4 engine. the same logic applies here as well(witness the new Camry V6's engine - even Consumer Reports rated it as poor, and they have all but married Toyota they love them so much). Stuff made especially for the U.S. market is usually put together as cheaply and quickly as possible to compete in the marketplace. The I-4 Camry is of course, flawless, especially with the manual transmission.(because it's the exact same car sold in Japan, despite being made in the U.S. mostly)

gagrice

I have driven the VW diesels with both the Tiptronic and DSG. They are both very good transmissions. My Mercedes Sprinter diesel with 5 speed tiptronic was great on all types of terrain. I just drove a 2007 GL320 CDI with 7 speed and was less than happy. In fact it killed my desire to own one. Toyota is also have problems with their 6 speed transmissions. I think after owning 5 speed automatics in two diesels and a new Sequoia, that is enough gears. I like the DSG best of all. If Honda is smart that is what they will end up using.

blufz1

The Diesel price increment appears to be 1200-1500 bux.............I'll have one please!

jaxs1

Based on what information?

nanorapture

The Diesel price increment appears to be 1200-1500 bux.............I'll have one please!

But which trim levels? LX? EX? EXL? All trim levels?

I'll take a regular EX Diesel for a $23,500 invoice + TTL. $1200 - $1500 seems reasonable.

Are you just SWAGGIN', or do you have access to priviledged info?

It seems to me they wouldn't have to firm up prices until the last minute. Especially with the VW diesels coming out next spring.

-Nano

nanorapture

I just drove a 2007 GL320 CDI with 7 speed and was less than happy. In fact it killed my desire to own one.

What was it about the 7 speed transmission that you did not like? Please tell us more about your experience with those diesel cars over the years.

I am totally ignorant of the diesels in europe. It sounds like there are great diesel cars with auto transmissions in europe.

I think it will take a good auto tranny to mate to the diesel to get it to go over well with the mainstrean USA market. If Honda wants to sell a lot of them they better have a good auto tranny available.

That DSG transmission is perfect for the diesel. More efficient too.

blufz1

Autosavant.net. Check it out!

jaxs1

That site cannot be relied on, especially this far in advance. I doubt Honda will finalize pricing until close to the release date.
It isn't "news." Just a website posting.
$1500 is a reasonable guess. I suppose it could be about that much more on the MSRP.
What really matters is how many the produce. If they produce very few, then you will not be able to get a good deal purchasing the diesel. In that case, you will save more by purchasing a discounted 4 cylinder gas model than you will ever get back in fuel savings on the diesel.

blufz1

Edmunds straightline has the reference also. I prefer to wait till the last year of a generation to buy so I can get a better deal. I'll wait till the last year of the CRV and hope to get a relative deal on an SE,if they build one. The only thing 194 " I'll allow in my garage is a bass boat.

jaxs1

It doesn't matter. They can change prices up to the last minute. Sometimes new models have blank prices on the window stickers because prices weren't finalized in time for printing the stickers.

blane

I just filled my Accord with regular unleaded at a no-name station in NJ today. It was $2.739 per gallon. Diesel was $3.159 per gallon.

A nearby station had regular unleaded for $2.799 and Diesel for $3.199.

That's about 13% more for Diesel. The Diesel Accord on the horizon had better have great mileage to compensate for that differential.

moparbad

Diesel $3.05
Gas $2.89

5% more expensive for diesel

The current Accord diesel being sold in England obtains 67% better fuel mileage than the 2.4L gas engine.

I'd say that more than compensates for diesel price fluctuations.

Also, if you are new to diesel, diesel prices are typically at their highest in the Fall when heating oil production starts.

jaxs1

It varies a lot. I have seen diesel prices both higher and lower than gas at different times of the year.

ruking1

Yes it is pretty historic the so called winter price variance is due to competition for "heating oil". Of course mid to high 90's per barrel might play a part!? World wide, we are pretty late to the diesel passenger vehicle fleet party.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/diesel/index.html

gagrice

I test drove a 2007 GL320 CDI at the local MB dealer. It had just over 8k miles. That makes it legal in CA. It seemed real smooth on acceleration. We drove out onto the freeway and that was good lots of power. When I took the off ramp and let my foot off the accelerator it was a radical downshift that slowed the vehicle way faster than I wanted. When I gave it a little accelerator it acted like it was at loss for which gear it wanted. We drove a while longer and this seemed to be the normal operation of the 7 speed transmission. I just did not like it at all.

By contrast my Mercedes Sprinter with the Tiptronic 5 speed and diesel engine was very predictable. I loved it going down long steep winding roads. You just tapped the gear shift side to side and it would go up and down through the gears. Never needed to hit the brakes on very steep downhill roads. And that Sprinter conversion van was over 8k lbs.

I personally think they are going the wrong direction with auto transmissions. 5 speeds gives you plenty of range for gas or diesel engines.