Biodiesel vehicles

Sylvia

What are your thoughts on biodiesel vehicles? Are they in our future? Will french fry oil finally have a good home?

misterme

What is the byproduct of biodiesel?
Surely if I stop by the local Taco Bell and get their nasty old grease for fuel and pour it into my car something will be left behind.
Nachos, anyone?
Steve

rfruth

I've heard that biodiesel fuel is not a good choice for easy starts so it's best to use regular diesel fuel for the first few minutes then you can switch to biodiesel, true and if so how that accomplished ?

oldboy

Refer to post #498 at Hybrids vs. Diesel thread for a good explanation of how to switch between diesel and cooking oil. Expensive to install an extra fuel tank, but you might get the used cooking oil free from some restaurants. As for biodiesel, you would just use the existing tank, no problem. However biodiesel blends up to 20% are recommended rather than running 100% biodiesel, from what I have read. I would add that I have no personal experience with this.

moparbad

Diesel engine can run on biodiesel which is a product of transesterfication, waste vegetable oil, or straight vegetable oil. Biodiesel is interchangeable with petroleum derived diesel and require no different tanks or modifications for distribution or use.
Using WVO or SVO requires special equipment in a vehicle. Separate tank, and heating element at a minimum and the vehicle typically uses regular diesel during the start of vehicle and prior to shut down.

Kirstie_H

"Veggie Cars" in the news:
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/08/autos-174201.htm

rfruth

There isn't enough free used cooking oil / soybean oil for us all but kinda like hybrids bio-diesel is there for those willing to look for it - snip - Ostaszewski: Driving the global economy on french fry oil - Have you seen the price of gas lately? It's more than $2 a gallon. Two dollars! What do those big, heartless oil companies think they are selling us? Bottled water? Milk?
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/columnists/view.bg?articleid=70- - 546&format=text

bhill2

I know that biodiesel has advantages over diesel in the emissions department, but how does a diesel engine burning 100% biodiesel compare in emissions to a ULEV or SULEV gasoline engine, or an engine running on CNG?

usbseawolf2000

EPA's A Comprehensive Analysis of Biodiesel Impacts on Exhaust Emissions will help you. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf



Biodiesel reduces Perticle Matter and CO2 but increases more dangerous NOx. 100% biodiesel blend fuel has about 10% less energy than petrol diesel. So, you are looking at energy density of the gasoline.

Dennis

bhill2

Thanks, Dennis. Although I didn't closely read all 126 pages of the report you gave the hyperlink to, the table that you included in your post gives a pretty good idea of the answers to my question. The report noted that the data were largely based on pre-1997 heavy-duty highway vehicles (largely semis I imagine)that had few emission control devices (for instance, NOX adsorbers). I wonder if the NOX increase could be prevented with such devices. Since the other pollutants decrease dramatically, and biodiesel is renewable and domestically produced, it might be worth the effort.

Bob

moparbad

Wow, I sure hope that hybrid drivers concerned about emissions are not foolishly burning ethanol blended gasoline!
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200209/23_losurem_- ethanol/index.shtml

VOC's in the news in MN. People making the ethanol choice are contributing to toxic emissions.

Other problems with ethanol.
Ethanol is highly volatile (increased smog from evaporation of gasoline). Ethanol can not be transported using traditional petro pipelines due to water absortion and separation from gasoline. Requires massive tax subsidies. Requires modifications to existing engines.

Biodiesel is not highly volatile. Biodiesel can be transported in the same pipelines as gasoline or diesel. Biodiesel does not require blending and can be used as 100% biodiesel. Biodiesel requires no modifications to existing diesel engines. Biodiesel receives fewer tax subsidies than ethanol.

Biodiesel is the smart choice for the fuel to power future vehicles, not ethanol.

john1701a

LOOK AT WHEN THAT ARTICLE WAS PUBLISHED. IT IS GROSSLY OUTDATED. AND VERY, VERY, VERY MISLEADING.

PERHAPS YOU SHOULD PUBLISH THE FOLLOW-UP ARTICLE. THE ONE STATING HOW MUCH THAT ONE PARTICULAR PLANT HAS CLEANED UP THE SMELL.

I drive by that plant on the way to work every day. So there is absolutely nothing you can claim about it that I can't clarify for people.

The regulators and the required action was very swift, since ethanol is mandatory in Minnesota. 100% of the gas in the metro area is a mix with gas. And because of that, we are proving the benefits from it... both from cleaner air and the fact that the production has become more efficient.

BIODIESEL IS DIRTIER THAN DIESEL, WITH RESPECT TO NOx (SMOG) EMISSIONS. Would you like me to publish a link to the proof of that, again?
 
JOHN

dhanley

hybrid advantages:

1) Lower Nox and P articulates

Diesel advantages:
1) Less greenhouse effect ( esp considering fuel evaporation )
2) No environmentally questionable battery pack
3) Renewable and net zero greenhouse with biodiesel
4) Established diesel engine longevity.

Fuel economy, i think we have to say is a tossup, esp as some reviewers have claimed to have gotten the same MPG out of a prius and an (automatic) mercedes e320CDI--and that's a much bigger, heavier, and faster car.

Cost--diesel, it seems. A TDI jetta is cheaper than a civic hybrid when equipped similarly, and honda is admittedly subsidizing the hybrid. Speculating that it will cost massive amounts to clean up potential future emissions standards is double speculation--euro diesel standards are already high, and diesels are cost-effective there.

As i don't need a car right now, i can wait a year or two until there's an audi, c-class, or 3-series diesel available here.

dave

john1701a

> 1) Less greenhouse effect

The lack of proof makes this very questionable. Real-World data is required.

> 2) No environmentally questionable battery pack

Proof that NiMH is both environmentally benign and recyclable has already been provided.

> 3) Renewable and net zero greenhouse with biodiesel

Since ethanol is a biogas, what's the point?

> 4) Established diesel engine longevity.

Since Prius is about to begin year 8, this point will lose it's competitive advantage as time goes on.

JOHN

loveshemp

I bought a 2004 TDI New Beetle and have used 100% biodiesel in it since the first time I filled the tank. I keep a 55 gallon drum of the stuff in my garage. It's easy to buy, delivered the same day I call for it, and easy to use with the little hand-pump I bought for $29. The fuel is non-toxic, non-combustible, and smells good. Best of all, my car runs like a dream. I have the hippest car in town because it doesn't pollute. Check out the emission facts at biodiesel.org if you aren't convinced that this is the fuel of the future.

gagrice

That answers a lot of my questions, especially in the light of allegations that Bio-Diesel was higher in NoX. It seems you can buy high quality Bio-Diesel that passes CARB requirements for the upcoming 2006 standards. I need to plant more corn and soybeans on my MN farm.

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/

bhill2

I am very interested in what biodiesel is costing you. I could certainly handle pumping it myself. Oh, and where do you live (what state)? Thanks.

loveshemp

I pay $3.17 a gallon here in Montana (delivered, as I said, to my garage). I don't mind paying a little more to save the world, and my VW gets almost 50 mpg.

rfruth

Hey hemp sounds like you've got a good thing going. Couple questions, is your VW stock and what happens when your on the road or can't get back to your garage for fuel, can you mix n match without a problem ? I could go the biodiesel route (don't mind paying a little more, storing it in my garage and filling my tank there) but every now & then would end up getting whatever the filling station has to offer .

loveshemp

It's okay to mix and match, that's another good thing about it. Recently I drove to California and couldn't find any biodiesel pumps along the way, (except one in West Yellowstone) and the car ran just fine on regular diesel. I haven't done anything special to the car--just plunked down my money and put it in gear. It runs like a top.

loveshemp

Forgot to say--yes, the car is "stock," nothing special about it, a 2004 TDI New Beetle. Also, in the winter I'll have to mix the biodiesel with No. 1 diesel (right in the gas tank) because B100 gels at 20 degrees (more or less) but B20 is good to 40 below. So if you live in a cold climate keep the B100 in the garage next to the house so the whole tank doesn't gel. Even if it gels it is okay once it warms up, not like regular diesel which gets crystals in it and can wreak havoc on your engine, or so I am told by my husband who is an ex-diesel mechanic and was skeptical about my purchase but has since become a believer.

gagrice

Sounds like MN is pushing biodiesel. I don't see where it is being subsidized by the Feds and that is a good thing. The only downsides are cost to produce and B100 gels easily. I wonder if there are very many people willing to pay a lot more to save our oil supplies. There must be a few as the lady in Montana is paying $3.17 per gallon to do her part.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200104/19_mccallum- l_fat/

gagrice

That settles it I'm getting a diesel in Hawaii and using biodiesel. Go Willie!!!

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/users/artists/willie.shtm

john1701a

It increases NOx emissions beyond the already frightening level that diesel emits.

Add hardware to cleanse emissions down to the SULEV level, then you'll have a worthwhile positive.

JOHN

gagrice

The bio-diesel in Hawaii is recycled cooking oil. It used to be dumped on the landfill. I think with the breezes in Hawaii the NoX is not as much an issue as the landfill problem. They have diverted over 40 tons of cooking oil per month to bio-diesel. They can run B100 without fear of gelling where it never freezes. As with all the alternative fuels there are downsides. It is a small step toward independence from foreign oil.

gagrice

It increases NOx emissions beyond the already frightening level that diesel emits.

That is a little melodramatic. It is not as bad as many of the vehicles still manufactured by Toyota for the USA. They have one clean car, they need to work on the rest.

john1701a

> It is not as bad as many of the vehicles

Toyota has repeatedly stated all those vehicles will have a hybrid option available by 2010.

What will be happening with diesel technology?

I wonder how the cost of adding that cleansing hardware and the minor MPG penalty will affect the decisions made about diesel marketing.

Remember, technology commonly suffers from the wrath of executives. So no matter how much you believe in it, they may drop the axe and ruin your plans.

Thankfully, the committment to HSD is quite strong. Who knows. Perhaps it will later adopt biodiesel and the abandoning of engine-only technology won't be a big deal. Think about the future decisions.

JOHN

gagrice

Toyota has repeatedly stated all those vehicles will have a hybrid option available by 2010.

I'll believe it when I see it. They are not even close to keeping up with current requests for one lowly hybrid. What makes you think that they will build all their vehicles with HSD. It is a dream of yours. The Prius is just another car and a not very profitable one at that. When the Toyota President says they have NO plans to expand he is telling me and the rest of the world we will bite the bullet on a few thousand cars and that is it. He is not the idealist you are. He is a realist, that likes to make MONEY. The Prius is not a money maker or if it is only a slight bit. Nothing like Toyota is used to making.

Back to Bio-Diesel here is the company in Hawaii that is supplying bio-diesel and making a profit WITHOUT my tax dollars subsidizing at all. He did it on his own and that is the AMERICAN way. Unlike the Ethanol rip-off.

http://www.biodiesel.com/aboutPacBio.htm

john1701a

What the $@^#$*! are you talking about? No patience, eh?

Toyota has clearly stated they will be expanding HSD production. They even provided a little detail on short, mid, and long term expectations.

Toyota has also clearly stated that they want to expand their US marketshare by 5 percent by 2010.

The unique opportunities from HSD expansion along with the impressive profits lately obviously make those goals realistic.

JOHN

gagrice

I just received a response from Pacific Biodiesel. "On Maui, our price for B100 is $2.315 per gallon" I think that is a bargain considering Unleaded on Hawaii is generally $.30 to $.50 per gallon higher than CA prices. They hope to expand to the Big Island which would be good for me. The whole Island will smell like flowers and McDonald's fries.

rfruth

The jury is still out when it comes to bio-diesel - snip - BOISE Preliminary findings of a local study indicate burning biodiesel to cut vehicle exhaust may actually produce more air pollution. http://www.idahopress.com/articles/2004/08/06/news/story3.txt

gagrice

I would say they are not looking at biodiesel from the proper perspective. They only analyzed B20 a very diluted biodiesel. Read about this company that has cleaned up a landfill mess by using 40 tons of waste cooking oil to power generators and fuel cars with B100 no fossil fuel used at all. That is progress, and they are making a profit without government subsidies.

http://www.biodiesel.com/

weebil1

Does using BioDiesal violate the warantee? Does anyone know if VW has tried to use BioDiesel as an excuse to not service any problems with the car (anything related to the fuel injectors,hoses, etc)

moparbad

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/040825.htm

rfruth

No surprise the person all for this is a farmer but its still a heck of a lot better than
having to do business with people we'd rather not associate with - snip - Organizers of an educational initiative to raise public awareness about a farm-generated alternative fuel source believe it not only would contribute to a cleaner environment, but could provide a major boost to Alabama's farming economy.
http://southeastfarmpress.com/news/82704Alabama-biodiesel/

gagrice

That is an encouraging article. I think we have sat on this fuel source too long. It may not eliminate fossil fuels. It cannot hurt our dependence on not so friendly countries. And help our farmers in the process. I think if the government stays out of it there is a chance for biodiesel to survive.

rfruth

But I fear the government won't stay out of it, heck Detroit is busy cranking out illogical cars & trucks that are snapped up if there's a big enough rebate . How long ago did we (the government) bail out Chrysler ? Here we go again same song next verse.

hotshot24

I heard something about a lady in maryland use frying oil in her vw. she filtered it though but it was completely free from resturants old frying oil.

gagrice

Sounds like they are serious about biodiesel. I would think they would go to a higher percentage if they can produce enough.

http://brazzil.com/mag/content/view/38/2/

Sylvia

Special Report: Exploring Biodiesel
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/102946/arti- cle.html

xcel

Hi Sylvia:

___Thanks for the link and it is a great write up on Biodiesel. Instead of using the term “renewable”, might I suggest your editors touch upon CO2 (GHG) reduction given it is a recyclable process vs. direct CO2 emission(s) from std. refined diesel fuels in use today? This is Biodiesel’s true environmental calling given all the talk of Global Warming over the last 2 or 3 years.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

Sylvia

The editors respond best to input if it comes direct from the readers. Would you mind clicking on the Help link in the upper right corner of the page and inputting a note to the category "editors"? The love feedback.

Thanks!

xcel

Hi Sylvia:

___Done. CO2 neutral is the term I hope they would consider …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

rfruth

I saw this (below) in the TCC daily edition - snip - DCX Filling Diesel Jeeps with Biodiesel


The National Biodiesel Board is hailing DaimlerChrysler AG's decision to use biodiesel as the factory fillup for the new diesel-powered Jeep Liberty. "The Jeep Liberty will be one of the first new passenger vehicles offering a highly efficient diesel engine into the U.S. market, and Chrysler's B5 factory fill will help build awareness about the environmental and energy security benefits of biodiesel," said Joe Jobe, president of the Missouri-based biodiesel board. Jobe said more than 400 major fleets use biodiesel commercially nationwide including all four branches of the military, NASA, Harvard, National Park Service, U.S. Postal Service, L.L. Bean, and others. About 300 retail filling stations make various biodiesel blends available to the public, and more than 1000 petroleum distributors carry it nationwide. Biodiesel is nontoxic, biodegradable, and essentially free of sulfur and aromatics. -Joe Szczesny

Mr_Shiftright

People should be aware though that if you have been using regular diesel fuel in your car and then switch to B100, you'll have to change your fuel filters right after the first tankful.

B100 is a good solvent.

Also I think the gel point for B20 is around zero or 5 degrees above (farenheit), not 40 below. Mixing with about 30% regular diesel should cure most cold weather gelling problems for people in really severe climates.

Good question about how biodiesel affects warranties. I would guess that if you switch to B100 in a car that you've been filling with regular diesel for a couple years, and you don't change the filters, that the manufacturer wouldn't honor the warranty on correcting that problem.

amazon

I think this fuel has great potential if the political desire is there to implement this.

rfruth

Great potential but not much desire - snip - A car that can go 80 miles on a gallon of renewable fuel such as soy and canola would seem like an ideal solution to oil prices bumping around historic highs of $50 a barrel. http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/27514/story.ht- - - m

bhill2

I am confused. The hyperlinked reference makes the statement that diesel hybrids are much more expensive to produce than petrol hybrids, but I didn't see any explanation of why. Any thoughts?

amazon

The article referres to diesel hybrids, not biodiesels. In fact, you can run on biodiesel or blends of bio / regular diesel in the current diesel engines.

bhill2

Oh yeah, I know they weren't talking about running biodiesel vs. petrodiesel, but I still don't understand why a diesel/electric hybrid would be so much more expensive to produce than a gas/electric hybrid. It strikes me that a diesel/electric hybrid running biodiesel would be a great way to give the planet a break.

rfruth

Biodiesel tax incentive - snip - President George W. Bush signed a bill Friday that extends the fuel-ethanol tax credit and creates a tax credit for biodiesel fuel. http://snipurl.com/a3td