Mark....too many ideas in one paragraph for me....my multi-tasking and multi-processing skills aren't up to snuff. You throw out so much food for thought my brain is regurgiting!!!
Yes, marketing plays a significant roll in developing pricing, ahhhhh Caddy's Corinthian leather for 1k? What a value. Or was it a bean counter that caluclated the profit margin based on...ehem simply mathematics.
Remember the early Honda Prelude circa 89 with all wheel....um steering. Discontinued due to lack of sales. That's here now 15 years later in GM's full size trucks and may in fact be the next "plus" feature, want that tight turning radius in your RX330 for an additional 1.5k? All the same ideas, features, and costs associated with implementation.
Yes, I remember Lexus introduction into the luxury marketplace in 1990. With the LS400 priced around $35k loaded and the ES250 as their only two models. market penetration by price? content, maybe a lot of both? Infinti follows, Acura there a year earlier but never quite getting the formula correct until recently due mainly in part to their inability to take risks (which I might add currently holds true today). The rest being history.
Along the lines of Audi being the leader by virtue of quattro? Hardly! Unless you define luxury by having AWD. I remember when luxury auto's were regarded as only European makes by the way they handled, then the formula became simply leather, roof, CD, DVD, NAVI...etc. AWD is just the next bar everyone (Lux autos) have adopted to separate themselves...from the not-so-lux. Along with turning headlamps!!!
Funny...the significant other offered this today as we discussed shopping for a lux appointed SUV. She offered her so called "simple" mind ideas below. Although, I disagreed with her logic of lux car buyers not looking for value based on dollars spent. Maybe it's not what we think, but how we are in fact profiled as buyers.
"None of the so-called Luxury Makes are offering a lease/incentive deal. Unless one offers it then none are forced to do so. They will all sit pretty until the other puts on the pressure to offer a competive. deal. Besides if you are in that price range..ie looking for Phaeton, you really think someone is looking for a great lease deal? If you are talking about the individual looking for a great deal, you won't find him/her at an Audi or BMW dealer. He/she will be at your local Dodge dealer."
Funny....the company I work for re-badges products differing margin levels, just as GM, Toyota per say, and the rest. Same costs to build, different strategy to rationalize the price to the end user.
No, you don't need an "MS" in Marketing. That's also offered as an under-grad. We lower folk just simple like to offer ideas, thoughts and the like on occasion. I'll stick to my local paper, who reads BW anyway???
There's no one left!!! I'm just having fun with Mark....he posts on those boards as well?
Congrats on the new purchase/lease? The women swears by the heated seats, very good for the back on those long commutes, not just for cold fannies. The 17" rims nice touch while not over doing it, although 20" sounds interesting. Our 05 is also the same color Dolphin/Ebony. IMHO the most striking color combo.
I congratulate you on your new B7. If I -- today -- picked a car from "the class" (any class) and the only differentiation was the product itself -- Audi, despite what I write here remains my top choice.
Thanks for the info! I assume the 3.2 you drove was an automatic? (I know the 3.2 is only sold as an automatic in the U.S.)
I will definitely retry it. Did you have a chance to try the A4 2.0 automatic?
My test drive was a bust, starting at 3 different locations with the 3 cars, and getting stuck in traffic. Harder to assess things than on a driving course.
Having driven manual transmissions most of my life, but needing to swith to automatic for my wife, I'm focused on finding an automatic I can be happy with.
What I'm asking here is something very different than outright performance/handling - I'm pretty sure I have a good idea how the car will work on the road, passing power, AWD confidence in the slippery stuff on the highway from other posts and reviews. What I'm wondering is how well it works in an extreme case of low-speed (5-10mph), huge incline, snow and ice, clawing for any bit of traction. Our Cooper S is faster accelerating on the low end due to gearing and weight vs. our 323i, but the 6 cylinder will handle accelerating from 600rpm without complaint, haul a higher gear over the same speed/grade, etc.
I actually assume that in my scenario of a steep winter hill with no room for a run-at (actually a 90 degree bend at the base of it to start), the 3.2 with an auto would be the best at making it up that hill, conditions and tires assumed equal, even over the 3.2 manual when it becomes available. It's just hard to find quantifiable information on something like this. I could see if my salesman will let me drive the 300 miles round trip to that hill to satisfy my curiosity, but by the time the cars start to arrive here in a couple of weeks I doubt there will even be enough snow in cottage country to make it a real test ;-).
I don't plan to take this thing up against a Jeep or a 4wd with a low range case on an extreme offroad trail, but I know my cottage-neighbour has spun his Jeep Cherokee off on this hill, so its no pushover. So far we haven't winterized our cottage but this seems to be in the cards within a year or two, and I would like to think this car with proper tires will be able to get me in (and out) without getting a tow winch attached to that pretty new grille everyone loves!
Anybody know about unpredictable gear shifts and throttle response on the B7?
I recently posted about my test drive of the 2005.5 A4 3.2, reporting that it seemed to shift gears at odd points, and had throttle that behaves strangely. I thought it might just have been me - my test drive was marred by traffic congestion, so I didn't get a chance to focus on the car.
But then I noticed that, on the "Problems and Solutions" board, there has been a whole pile of posts about similar behavior. I saw a lot of complaints and suggested workarounds there, including shifting between D and S, etc.
Has this problem been solved in the B7? I'm looking to buy in the near future, but concerned about this issue. I will redo the test drive, but would like to hear the bottom line from anybody who knows.
I recall a professional car review saying something about the 3.2 throwing in a "dollop" more accelation than you ask for, or something like that. I wonder if this relates to the same set of issues.
This is one of the major issues I have with looking at the B7. For this reason alone I am being swayed daily over to the 2006 330i where there has not ever been complaints on Tip Lag etc. on there Steptronic system.
P.S. What exactly is Tip lag? I see this mentioned a lot. I assume it's something to do with their automatic transmission. Having only driven stick most of my life, I don't know what the issues are here.
I do not own a boat -- some of my friends and co-workers do and I have been out on the Ohio River with them.
What does this have to do with tip lag?
When watching my boat owning friends pilot their boats, I noticed that they all do one thing in common: they all work the various controls (rudder, trim and throttle, e.g.) before they want the boat to react. There is a lag between the time the wheel (rudder) is turned, the prop reversed and the desired action, that is.
Tiptronic lag (TL) drives/feels a bit like that. TL also feels somewhat like turbo lag, perhaps severe turbo lag in some instances.
My own experiences with TL are likened to another phenom -- flat spots. When growing up, learning to drive my parents Chrysler Newport (which was a 1963 model) when it needed a tune up and sometimes when it was "cold," I would depress the accelerator and instead of the engine revving and the car picking up speed, it would behave as if I had hit a wall of jello. This flat spot, often caused me some consternation and I would floor the accelerator and then the car would downshift (auto trans) and the engine would roar to life and the car would lunge forward with all the grunt the Chrysler's V8 could muster.
Likewise, with Tip lag, I experienced a temporary (usually no more than 2 seconds) delay from the time I pressed the accelerator until the car actually seemed to respond appropriately -- kind of like the boat analogy.
My primary isolation of the conditions under which this would happen lead me to learn to adapt to my adaptable transmission (!?!)
For me, TL would happen most often in the instance of the "rolling stop." Of course if there is a 4 way stop (sign, not light) a rolling stop is technically illegal. Well, that's another subject.
Imagine this:
You are approaching an intersection and you are travelling at the legal speed limit du jour. The light is red, you take you foot off the accelerator, coast, begin braking and as you approach the light and you are slowing 10, 8, 5, 2mph (approximately) -- in other words the car is still moving but your "attitude" clearly is that if you continue your current pedal pressure, you will stop. Then just as you enter the last few yards before stopping the light turns green and you remove your foot from the brake and press the accelerator. Tip lag often happens here at this exact moment.
Here's what happens: when you press the accelerator anticipating the car will begin re-accelerating from 2 or 3mph and if this is an instance where tip lag happens, the car will "do nothing" it is almost as if you had released the brake, pushed the shift lever to neutral and taken your foot OFF the accelerator pedal. You hit a wall of jello, so to speak. One M-I-S-S-I-S-S-I-P-P-I and whoosh, the car lunges back to life and jerks with acceleration commensurate with the HP and Torque of your Audi engine.
This whoosh effect happens, typically, because when the car refused your first normal depress of the accelerator, you press it further (sometimes instinctively almost as a reflex), sometimes if the conditions were that you were approaching a green light, slowing and the light goes yellow and you sense you can make the light on "pink" -- you attempt to accelerate and if tip lag happens, well you floor the car.
Whoosh -- 1963 Chrysler Newport with torque flight transmission and in need of a tune up, flat spot -- ahhhhhhh the memories.
I found tip lag was generally annoying -- when it was in my Audi A8 I was ticked off that my $71,000 car had the audacity to perform this way.
The cure is to reset the Tip program EVERY time you get in the car.
1. turn key to on position
2. press the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold it (2 seconds, maybe 4, I can't remember)
3. release the accelerator pedal
4. start the car normally.
This is the reset of the tip trans program and once I found out about it, from the Audi Car Club, I enjoyed more or less "tip-lag-free" driving from my Audi A8 and 2 Audi A6 4.2's that I had from 1997 through 2002.
Despite protestations to the contrary, I do believe Audi is NOT THE ONLY company to have this kind of "adaptive" transmission "features" that replicate the scenario and analogy I have employed to demonstrate "Tiptronic Lag."
Thanks for the great explanation! This is *exactly* what I noticed on my first test drive of the B7's. I'd depress the accelerator, nothing would happen, and I would instinctively press a little harder, then--woosh--we were off to the races. I felt like a student driver.
Somebody else on this board said that he test drove B7's on a driving course, and said that it's the smoothest transmission around. What might explain his not noticing this problem? Could it be they were resetting the computer before driving? He couldn't have missed it if it was happening.
This issue seems insane to me. Why have a feature that demonstrably doesn't work, and that can be fixed by just turning it off? I don't get it.
Have your heard for sure that the B7 can be fixed by the reset procedure you suggested?
Does the car behave any better in S mode? There was a lot of talk about S vs. D in relation to this issue, but I couldn't sort it out.
Great example by Mark and to add personal experience as well, I could not explain it better myself.
Miles, maybe the guy who drove the B7 on the track never rolled to a stop like Mark explained but just hauled [non-permissible content removed] around the track pushing the quattro to its limits etc.
Anyway, I don't think the Tip Lag is a feature as you mentioned but more of a circumstance of Audi's Automatic Transmissions. I don't think they can turn it off or else I have to imagine they would!
I guess my real burning question is how does the Steptronic version in BMW's auto tranny not have this issue and audi does?
I wish they did not have this issue cause I feel this car is a real contender for the 330i for me. They both are going to come in equally priced, we will see if lease rates are comparable but I think the B7 looks great. Going to test both of them hard in same circumstances, push both the auto trannies to determine the amount of or lack of Tip Lag in each, comfort and driving fun.
Last thought Miles, if you wait until the 2006 B7 version comes out this summer, it will have a manual transmission, as well as S-line etc.
I am getting either the 2006 330i or the 2006 B7 S-Line.
I am sick of renting a car for the last 12 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, I want to get an automatic so my wife will finally learn to drive. But I'm already beginning to regret switch to automatic.
Mark says the "feature" can be turned off (or at least reset) by depressing the accelerator before starting the car. Crazy, but believable.
I would like to get AWD. Haven't been following BMW closely, but I don't think the 2006 330xi is out, is it? I love everything about the B7, except for the tip lag, so it's a little disappointing.
Please let me know if you get a chance to test drive the B7 with automatic. I plan to redo the test, trying Mark's trick, and also trying S mode to se if it works any better. Let's compare notes after testing.
Can tip lag be avoided by shifting the tiptronic manually? I did not even try this. Figuring it would be an unsatisfying substitute for a true manual, I left the cars in D during the test drives. I also wonder if S would be any better. I will try your rest trick next time.
Sounds good, and no the 2006 330xi won't be out until sept/Oct of this year.
The feature cannot be turned off. I have heard in cases that it has been successful to do what Mark said and others it has not worked. I personally don't feel comfortable purchasing a $40,000+ vehicle and having to retrain the tranny every time I get into to drive it; then hope that retraining actually really works and that is not a placebo affect on my mind.
What you might want to do is go to the edmunds Audi A6 forum and read through the last couple months of comments to learn about people's experiences that have actually purchased the 3.2 A6. Then ask that Tip Lag question to those people who drive that car regularly.
You had a good suggestion. I went over to the A6 forum, and searched for the phrase "tip lag". I did find one reference to it. I also posted an inquiry. I'll let you know if I get any replies.
I agree with you that it's crazy to have to perform a reset procedure every time you drive a $40k car. Of course, it's also crazy to suffer the poorer reliability of an expensive German car as compared with a Honda Accord, for example, and yet I will probably do it. Stupid, I know.
Do you know if any of the 2006 3-series are in the showrooms yet? If I liked the 330i, I might be willing to wait for the 330xi.
I know that it is easy and accurate to hone in on the word, Tip(tronic) lag. The transmissions used by these German (and other) manufacturers have different names, but the auto trans each are not immune to "programmed" responses.
Recently, we took a new BMW X3 auto trans (3.0 engine) for a test drive; we also drove a Mercedes C320 and an Audi A4 3.2.
Each car has its unique interpretation of "Tip" lag. The BMW transmission seemed busy busy busy contanstly up and down shifting sometimes at "inappropriate" times -- Step Hunt would be what I would call it -- and it is not pleasant and certainly not Premium Class feeling.
I have test driven the Infiniti M35x and its own quirks could be mitigated in the sport position.
To make a point: none of these transmissions is as satisfying, precise or able to imbue the driver with the feeling of control and "performance" (dare I add, fun) that the super slick BMW manual imparts. Indeed, the new A4 transmissions have now entered the super slick zone, too.
As for "auto trans" for "the wife" -- wow, if my wife saw this in print, I think she would probably react as the faculty of Harvard reacted when Harvard's president suggested women "can't do math" [sic]. Many of us had to learn to drive with a stick shift (we had two cars when I was growing up and one of them always had a stick shift) and that always seemed to be the car I was "insured" to drive. I drove a VW bug and a Plymouth "satellite" (and that one didn't even have a synchronized first gear on its three on the tree configuration.)
If someone wants to have an automatic that is fine and dandy with me. But I would certainly want to allow that person to make an informed decision, especially once you realize the current generation of automatics each have their quirks, lags, hunts, surges, flat spots, whatever.
Only the Audi CVT of all the cars with autos I have tested and/or been loaned while my car was in for service, seems to have avoided this.
Probably the BMW and Audi full automatic manuals (DSG SMG) too have overcome this "feature."
I look at it this way, to this day I have to re-boot my PC becuase of some kind of "fatal error" or another (and I am on XP pro at the latest and greatest PTF on a less than 5 month old PC).
Sometimes I miss DOS.
The current state of the art of automatic transmissions is very advanced. The fact that tip, step and gear-tronic transmissions are each frought with "unwanted" features, apparently just goes with the territory.
A daily alt-control-delete sequence, just doesn't seem THAT big a deal if you are fully aware of the performance advantages of a manual transmission but simply elect NOT to employ them.
Let your wife learn with a stick and if she chooses an auto later, no harm no foul.
Mark-- Thanks for the input. The issue in my household is that my wife doesn't know how to drive at all. Learning to drive in your 40s in the center of a congested city is not so easy, even without the complication of learning stick. (Not to mention the car you learn in being a brand new luxury car). This isn't sexist - my wife's a brain (she has a PhD) - but she happens not to be tremendously well coordinated. I am not generalizing about other women.
I'm going to redo the test drive this week, play with D, S, and the reset trick you suggested. If that proves unsatisfying, I will take the only reasonable course of action, which is to leave my wife.
By the way, my test drive of the G35x revealed no flaky transmission behavior to speak of. The gear shifts were very smooth and seemed to come at the right time. Unfortunately, while I like the way it drives, I hate the way it looks, particularly the cheapo interior. Superficial, I know, but I'll be spending a lot of time in it.
Thanks again for all your input, Mark. It's been very helpful.
The 330i hits showrooms across the country in April. If you are interested, go to the BMW usa homepage and look for the 3 across america tour. It will show you a map of where they will be in your part of the country.
With that being said, I still want to test the B7 cause i love the look of audis.
I have not personally driven and X3 so i cannot comment on that transmission as well as any Tip Lag per say. I have owned and driven a 2003 530i which I believe has a different transmission than the bottom of the line X3. I never in the 3 months I had the car had any Tip Lag issues and I kept that baby in Sport mode the whole time.
I guess the key is to drive the new B7 in as many conditions as possible and drive the 330i ( in my case ) and determine which ride is better suited for you. I will say the nice option that is available on the 330i now is a manual 6 speed. As well the 2006 B7 will have a manual 6 speed also.
By the way, when will the B7 be out in full force in dealerships around the country?
I can only suggest that driving a Tiptronic in S mode is probably the primary method of mitigating the Tip lag. Step hunt is probably similarly mitigated via the S mode.
Hey, I'm not intending to slam the BMW transmission -- as I recall BMW and Audi source their transmissions from the same manufacturer. I suspect tip lag and step hunt are programmed in and are NOT truly bugs -- the programmers probabaly simply write the programs controlling the shift behavior differently.
Those of us who prefer manual transmissions are more or less tolerant of this -- I have a greater tolerance than my wife for instance.
greetings all...i wonder if those of you who have already received your B7s can give a sense of what type of mileage you're getting. I know they're probably not through with the break in period an all, but i'm curious just the same. I'd love to know which engine, tranny, and, well, how should i put it, the heaviness of your foot... Mine is relatively heavy... Also, are you using premium. Thanks much! Scott
Any idea if there is going to be a significant gap between these two models, or if a lot of it is the addition of drivetrain options etc.? I've read a post on iPod integration and bluetooth capability for instance - might these only apply if you can wait for a 2006? I don't really talk on the phone period, but occasionally do call my wife as I'm leaving the office and getting into the car, but mostly bluetooth would be wow factor only. However the iPod integration would be very nice, and I'd hate to miss it altogether for the sake of a few months (like the memory mirrors on my 2000 323i - I don't have them but later production runs did - grrr).
Also interested in the mileage question. Of course I'd like to pay less for gas but the range is just as important to me as well, and the tank on these cars is 5 litres (over a US gallon) smaller than on my current BMW. So I need better mileage (thinking 2.0T here) than my current car to maintain the range, 90% highway driving.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by safety feature - do you mean wrt the handsfree phoning part? Most studies I've seen say that the average cellphone user behaves very much like an impaired driver, and these are usually done on handfree setups. So its not the use of the hands that's the problem but rather the retreat into the virtual reality of your phone conversation that distracts you from the task of driving.
I hope I don't fall into this category, largely because I am not a casual cellphone user and am very aware that I am on the phone for those few seconds when I say I'll be back home in XX minutes, goodbye. All that said though I'd rather have the ability to use bluetooth than not, and especially the iPod integration, so I would weigh that in deciding when to buy if that was a factor - but I just don't know.
My current car is "hardwired" for the telephone, and it uses "natural" English commands to control the phone and several other features such as email and weather, etc (these latter features come with ON*star).
My car allows full handsfree and eyesfree use of the telephone. A car equipped with bluetooth and voice recognition will do all of this and probably more features and functions will be added as manufacturers come up with more "stuff" that is bluetooth enabled.
Any dialing or looking activity that requires your hands or eyes should only be done while the car is NOT moving. Few of us would ever do this (stop the car that is).
Any system that permits both hands and eyes free use of a technology is, by my definition, safer or at least potentially so (any advantage even if small, is a good thing).
I am in favor of retaining phone call capabilities in a car while driving but ONLY via hands and eyes free technology.
I fear that if we do not employ this technology that "governments" (local, state, federal, whatever) may attempt to legislate safety by disallowing (or making the cost so high it has the same effect) cell phone conversations while driving.
Watch someone pull out of his/her driveway in front of you (a bit too close for comfort) -- it certainly seems that 2 out of 3 times that person is on the phone from the very first RPM of the engine.
We've met the enemy and it is us.
Bluetooth is a luxury feature for the time being, but I think it is a safety feature that will soon be in even the least expensive cars.
My point is that the studies show little to no difference between hands/eyes free and not - driver's end up driving as if they are legally impaired either way according the the studies. So the safety end of it is probably more in impression than in reality.
I too would rather not end up being legislated out of being able to use the phone in a moving car (NY state I think has this law now?) but you're right - too many people just can't seem to appreciate the alone time that their car gives them and end up using these things constantly. I am hyper-aware when I'm on a phone in the car because its so unnatural for me to do so. Like I said, I only do it to quickly convey ETA info, not broker business deals. So I do think that you can talk on a phone safely but it does take some thought and restraint, both of which are in short supply for most people. Even when conversing with a passenger like my wife in the car I will pay most attention to the road and tail of in the middle of a sentence and have no idea where to pick it back up because I'm just focused on the road - and I do the same thing if I'm on the phone. I also don't feel the need to make eye-contact with her either as so many people seem to.
My worst problem with gadgets is probably my GPS when I'm on a road trip with my motorcycle. I will futz with it while on-road to the detriment of my riding - the default for the GPS is to not allow this while moving but of course I override this and do it anyway. I do try to make sure I have the route I want to take (as opposed to the route the GPS wants me to take) well programmed in and even have the voice instructions piped through to my helmet, but sometimes you just need to adjust the zoom level etc. when trying to negotiate the correct ramp, turn, etc.
The local dealer has 8 2005's all put into demo service in December. They're discounting $2500 off MSRP. I haven't warmed up to the look of the 2005.5, but I like some of the mechanical upgrades. Go for the new model or save some dough on the leftovers?
How many miles ? I think id prefer 1k off on a 05.5 with 0 miles to a old model with miles for 2500 off. Id think the depreciation along with how you think the rent er's drove the car's would steer me to the 05.5.
There are a lot of unseen improvements in the B7 - chassis, suspension, the 2.0 vs. the 1.8 or the changes to the 6 cyl. I've had mine for 4 weeks - IMO it is worth going for the new one if you can negotiate about 1K off. Or, wait a few months more and get a better deal once the rush is over and the summer sales push starts.
I guess thats a hard call. If its exact ally what you want colors/options ect.. If I had to compromise 3k off won't make you happy. IM with Mike on this one if your talking the Turbo its a HUGE improvement IMO.
fwiw I was offered 1k off without even haggling. On a low optioned car.
Yes, I finally was able to sit in the new 2005.5. Not near an audi dealership and have too busy to drive to one. But today I bailed a couple hours of work and spent some time there.
I really like the exterior look and the sport package with the 17" 5-double spoked rims are great. I had a chance to sit in the S4 with the Recaro seats and I hated them. Why did I sit in the S4 you may ask, because the S-Line is going to have those seats as part of the package for 2006 along with badging, 18" rims special steering wheel etc. I thought I would be interested in the S-Line but as of today am not.
So what I have learned for myself is to compare the 2006 A4 to the 2006 330i. 2006 A4: lighting package sports package premium package cold weather package Bluetooth Upgraded leather option
Both cars will come in very similarly priced around 43k ish, we will see about leasing prices because both companies have no options available yet. My decision will come down to how well the car drives, how comfortable to car is to drive in ( seats ) purchase or lease prices and the overall "wow" factor.
My still one concern for the Audi is the Tip Lag issue we have heard about on the new A6 3.2 models. Any input on this would be appreciated.
If you don't have to, which I am led to believe you will not have to do even with the A4.
And, comparing the A4 3.2 to the 330i (unless you meant 330xi) is an easy call -- go with the quattro equipped car.
This probably will preciptate some debate which is not my intention. So I'll sum it up: "did too" "did not" "did too" and so forth: "AWD" "no RWD" "are you kidding, that's only good when there's no slick stuff, AWD" "awww you're nuts, RWD with four good snow tires and chains and traction control works just fine -- RWD" "the advantages of AWD are NOT simply for low friction surfaces we've been over this a million times AWD" -- and so on.
Sorry, I just wanted to tell you to go with the A4 if the comparo is between the 330i and NOT the 330ix.
I just quickly cruised through this entire forum, and noticed the overwhelmingly positive reception to the 2005.5 A4.
So, my question is, am I in the minority when I state, I find the new corporate grille to be atrocious?
I first started getting really interested in cars in the late 90s, right about when the car industry began to experience a styling renaissance, IMO. There were lots of gorgeous offerings from most of the makes, and IMO, Audi and VW were two of the most apparent and obvious winners in the looks department.
Among the Audi line-up, the A4 seemed especially exquisitly proportioned and beautifully styled (plus I really like small cars). The face seemed so friendly and harmonious. It seemed to be the perfect embodiment of what a simple yet elegant car should look like, almost a charicature.
Fast foward to now. To me the grille looks completely out-of-place and unharmonious. It's been compared to the 300, but I think the big difference is the placement of the license plate holder. You have this huge thick slab slapped right into the middle of the grille. It reminds me of how Chevy chose to slap a random silver bar across the face of all their cars just for the sake of having a corporate face.
So to me, what they've done to the A4 (and the A6 etc.) is only more offensive when considering how gorgeous the previous models were. It's not quite as bad as what they've done to the Jetta (now the nicest corolla on the market), but it's enough to cross the A4 off my list.
I would've much preferred if they had stuck to the old face, performed a few minor styling changes and instead focused their efforts on improving reliability and mechanical features, just as they did in the last restyling.
But what do I know? I guess the marketplace will be the final judge. Maybe my tastes are slipping out of touch with mainstream society, which would be a bit disturbing to me since I'm only 27. (There's a lot of other styling trends in other makers that I don't agree with as well)
I think that focusing on one feature like this and how much you hate it is kind of wish-fulfillment. Instead of taking an up front attitude on it just chill, see a few more pics in different colours, see it in person, and make a decision on it after its had some time to grow on you. I'm just a wee bit older at 39, enough time to go through another cycle or two of fashion trends in car design than you, not as many as some others. I really like the new A6 in the flesh, and the A4 is growing on me now too.
However, I may also be in the minority by not being that heavily swayed by exterior styling - its quite a bit lower on my overall points system than interior design and ergonomics since you spend a lot more time on the inside looking out, and that's POV where I want to absolutely love the car's looks from (see the new BMW 3 for how not to do the interior!). Close second is probably handling/driving excitement/engine performance, where performance isn't just measured in which has the most power - all cars today will get my licence suspended in short order and none have the power to weight advantage of my bike.
Or maybe I'm just saying all this because some people have commented on the size of my own schnoz - I prefer to think of it as a regal nose!
You certainly are entitled to your opinion, I think the BMW 5 series looks like a Pontiac front end with a bustle for a rear end. Some folks love the BMW bangle look. Not me.
The new Cadillacs CTS, SRX and STS for instance have also been for some a love hate kind of thing, I like them, however.
Now that the corp look for Audi is, for the foreseeable future, set in chrome, so to speak, I see little that we mere mortals can do to make any thing at all happen in this regard.
I say live with it -- I guess we could have a car forum that discusses our personal likes and dislikes with respect to styling (there probably is something like that here already).
I think the new A4 is a good looking car, ditto the A6 -- I like the previous gen, too.
The new A4 3.2 seems, at this point in time to be a bit odd in that it ought to be in BMW's face, but with ONLY an auto trans at this point, well, that just seems like poor planning on Audis part.
The A4 line seems to attract the more sporting of the Audi customer set. Regardless of the true numbers of people who actually buy a stick shift, there is some corporate statement that is made when a new release comes out and apparently distances itself from the traditions of "European Sporting Sedan" -- that are implied via a stick shift.
I would rather debate things that we may actually be able to affect (options, marketing, configurations) rather than design elements. Car design is, as we all know, subjective. Audi made a choice, they didn't ask us in advance what we thought, apparently. I am not turned off by the new look, indeed I applaud their willingness to show they can look different.
The Japanese mfgs are just now starting to go down the individuality path -- what has taken them so long?
My main displeasure with styling, if anyone really cares, is when things like the Pontiac Aztec come out -- I mean really, was this thing ever vetted with any focus groups? Other than their use on the TV show Dark Angel, who found that vehicle attractive?
You have some strong points. I live in Northern Calif. south of San Francisco, where there is no snow or ice type of conditions. I am not quite sure I "need" quattro. So the AWD vs. RWD debate may not be super strong with my situation.
So the comparison is with the S-Line 2006 A4 vs a similarly loaded 2006 330i. Configurator put both of them about equally priced for a purchase but have no idea on either for leasing.
Anyway, much more research is needed on my part over the next several months; test drives pricing ( leasing and purchasing numbers )etc.
Mark, what is your thought on leasing if you drive 20k miles per year on a 36 month lease. I realize I would have to purchase miles up front which should be less expensive than paying the extra miles when i turn the car in.
I have always purchased cars but they have been hondas or jeeps etc; not luxury sports cars. I ideally would like to turn the car over every 3 years or so for a new one. I get reimbursed ( car allowance )a decent chunk of change per month by my company and can take additional tax reimbursements as well.
I realize the residual value of the car will be less with 20k miles per year over 15k miles which means the lease payment will be higher for the residual value and also higher for the miles. Question is, how do you lease a car and keep it under warranty up to the 60-65k range in 3 years? Also, would this scenario warrant a finance/purchase?
Lastly, another forum on this question suggested getting the 15k mile package then toward the end of the lease, the financial services dept of ( BMW ) calls you to ask if you want to extend your lease or buy more miles. This eliminates the residual value dropping on the car at the very beginning of the lease thus saving you some money monthly; you still end up paying for the miles on the car obviously which i am fine with.
If you're going to drive 20K miles per year, here's what i'd do: look for a 2 year old CPO car with 20K miles on it. The CPO will extend the warranty to 6 years 100K miles, leaving you with 4 years and 80K miles.
Of course, this assumes local dealers aren't asking absurd prices for CPO cars.
I'm with you on the RWD/quattro thing. To me, quattro just means it's not FWD. And i live in chicago!
You don't say how long you are willing to keep the car. At 20,000 miles, IMO, you are at the maximum that justifies leasing and that with a prepay of the miles at presumably a discounted rate.
You might consider one of those special quasi lease/buy programs (on Audi's website), too.
This is what I used to think of as an open ended lease -- lower payments, chance to build equity and more of the "ownership" responsibilities -- of course if at 35 months and 29 days you have 60,000 miles on the car, you may find you don't want to keep it beyond the term, regardless of your cost (if any) to walk away.
German (European cars, generally) of the Premium or even near Premium ilk are breathtakingly expensive to repair out of warranty. Sadly their reliability beyond 50,000 miles has taken quite a hit over the past few years (but presumably both Audi and BMW have in their newer models moved up that scale). Moreover, these EGPC (Euro-German-Premium-Cars) depreciate very rapidly making them "less fun" to either lease or buy, but I think less fun to buy (please no arguments, I understand both lease and buy camps are represented here and can articulate their reasons for doing one versus the other.)
If only you could acquire an EGPC for zero or near zero % interest rates for 3,4 or 5 years and buy a 100,000 mile warranty at 49,999 miles (this latter thing you can do, the former, not so much).
Under the circumstances, I would go for the car of these two that you personally enjoy the most and factor in the residual value of the car.
Recently I have found that BMW's for instance appear to have a higher residual making them less expensive to lease than less expensive Audis.
Still, if the BMW 330i is about the same MSRP as the Audi A4 3.2, I can only repeat that the Audi is a "better deal" since it includes about $2000 of AWD hardware, which IMO, will improve the value of your car and the performance and safety regardless of your annual snowfall.
Time is fleeting as we all know, it would seem to me that the new BMW will (or ought to) drive down the A4's acquisition cost -- since the Audi will not be getting as much media buzz once there's a new BMW 3 for sale.
...make a decision on it after its had some time to grow on you.
Yes, I guess I am behaving a bit spoiled here. I've heard that remark a number of times regarding the new grille: give it time and it grows on you. I just feel like the old Audi look never had to grow on anyone. At a glance, it was immediately elegant and distinct.
I'm glad that other makers, such as the Japanese, are making an effort to grasp at a stylistic identity. I hope they just don't grab a style just for the sake of having one.
A designer I know in NYC says the buzz among the designers is that Audi is considering moderating/modifying the schnoz. So maybe they do listen to us on design.
I am considering to buy the A4 Avant 2.0T with the Premium, lighting, cold weather and sport - all season tires - packages (vs. just the 17" wheels). I am considering the DVD navigation system too . As my 92 Honda Civic has either a headgasket or cylinder head leak, I will have to buy soon and will not be able to wait until the 2006 A4 offers Bluetooth, or until the new 325 xi becomes available. Following questions:
1. Is there a way to make hands/eyes free telephoning possible in the 2005.5 A4 without ruining the nice interior? E.g. with aftermarket equipment? (My current LG 4400 Verizon cell-phone does not have Bluetooth). 2. Sports suspension with all seasons vs. 17" wheels only: Mark seems very much in favor of the sports suspension. I drove an A4 with sports suspension today and found it very nice and not significantly less comfortable on a bumpy road than the regular suspension (in the US the regular suspension apparently has more ground clearance than the European "regular" suspension) . Furthermore, the car looks much better with sports suspension. However, I do live in New Hampshire with at times lots of snow, many pot holes and bumpy roads, and the Audi salesman on my side told me that he felt the difference between sports and regular suspension even on the parking lot. I did not have a chance to test the at the limits handling of the car with and without sports suspensions. Has anyone tried the new sports suspension on expansion joints, bumpy roads, etc for a while? 3. I have not had a chance to drive an 2005.5 A4 with a working Navigation system. The dealer today did not have the appropriate DVD. Does anyone know, how well the current Navigation Plus system for the A4 covers the more rural areas of the US?
Comments
Yes, marketing plays a significant roll in developing pricing, ahhhhh Caddy's Corinthian leather for 1k? What a value. Or was it a bean counter that caluclated the profit margin based on...ehem simply mathematics.
Remember the early Honda Prelude circa 89 with all wheel....um steering. Discontinued due to lack of sales. That's here now 15 years later in GM's full size trucks and may in fact be the next "plus" feature, want that tight turning radius in your RX330 for an additional 1.5k? All the same ideas, features, and costs associated with implementation.
Yes, I remember Lexus introduction into the luxury marketplace in 1990. With the LS400 priced around $35k loaded and the ES250 as their only two models. market penetration by price? content, maybe a lot of both? Infinti follows, Acura there a year earlier but never quite getting the formula correct until recently due mainly in part to their inability to take risks (which I might add currently holds true today). The rest being history.
Along the lines of Audi being the leader by virtue of quattro? Hardly! Unless you define luxury by having AWD. I remember when luxury auto's were regarded as only European makes by the way they handled, then the formula became simply leather, roof, CD, DVD, NAVI...etc. AWD is just the next bar everyone (Lux autos) have adopted to separate themselves...from the not-so-lux. Along with turning headlamps!!!
Funny...the significant other offered this today as we discussed shopping for a lux appointed SUV. She offered her so called "simple" mind ideas below. Although, I disagreed with her logic of lux car buyers not looking for value based on dollars spent. Maybe it's not what we think, but how we are in fact profiled as buyers.
"None of the so-called Luxury Makes are offering a lease/incentive deal. Unless one offers it then none are forced to do so. They will all sit pretty until the other puts on the pressure to offer a competive. deal. Besides if you are in that price range..ie looking for Phaeton, you really think someone is looking for a great lease deal? If you are talking about the individual looking for a great deal, you won't find him/her at an Audi or BMW dealer. He/she will be at your local Dodge dealer."
Funny....the company I work for re-badges products differing margin levels, just as GM, Toyota per say, and the rest. Same costs to build, different strategy to rationalize the price to the end user.
No, you don't need an "MS" in Marketing. That's also offered as an under-grad. We lower folk just simple like to offer ideas, thoughts and the like on occasion. I'll stick to my local paper, who reads BW anyway???
Congrats on the new purchase/lease? The women swears by the heated seats, very good for the back on those long commutes, not just for cold fannies. The 17" rims nice touch while not over doing it, although 20" sounds interesting. Our 05 is also the same color Dolphin/Ebony. IMHO the most striking color combo.
I applaud the product whole heartedly.
Thanks for the info! I assume the 3.2 you drove was an automatic? (I know the 3.2 is only sold as an automatic in the U.S.)
I will definitely retry it. Did you have a chance to try the A4 2.0 automatic?
My test drive was a bust, starting at 3 different locations with the 3 cars, and getting stuck in traffic. Harder to assess things than on a driving course.
Having driven manual transmissions most of my life, but needing to swith to automatic for my wife, I'm focused on finding an automatic I can be happy with.
Enjoy the ride.
I actually assume that in my scenario of a steep winter hill with no room for a run-at (actually a 90 degree bend at the base of it to start), the 3.2 with an auto would be the best at making it up that hill, conditions and tires assumed equal, even over the 3.2 manual when it becomes available. It's just hard to find quantifiable information on something like this. I could see if my salesman will let me drive the 300 miles round trip to that hill to satisfy my curiosity, but by the time the cars start to arrive here in a couple of weeks I doubt there will even be enough snow in cottage country to make it a real test ;-).
I don't plan to take this thing up against a Jeep or a 4wd with a low range case on an extreme offroad trail, but I know my cottage-neighbour has spun his Jeep Cherokee off on this hill, so its no pushover. So far we haven't winterized our cottage but this seems to be in the cards within a year or two, and I would like to think this car with proper tires will be able to get me in (and out) without getting a tow winch attached to that pretty new grille everyone loves!
I recently posted about my test drive of the 2005.5 A4 3.2, reporting that it seemed to shift gears at odd points, and had throttle that behaves strangely. I thought it might just have been me - my test drive was marred by traffic congestion, so I didn't get a chance to focus on the car.
But then I noticed that, on the "Problems and Solutions" board, there has been a whole pile of posts about similar behavior. I saw a lot of complaints and suggested workarounds there, including shifting between D and S, etc.
Has this problem been solved in the B7? I'm looking to buy in the near future, but concerned about this issue. I will redo the test drive, but would like to hear the bottom line from anybody who knows.
I recall a professional car review saying something about the 3.2 throwing in a "dollop" more accelation than you ask for, or something like that. I wonder if this relates to the same set of issues.
Any input would be welcome.
This is one of the major issues I have with looking at the B7. For this reason alone I am being swayed daily over to the 2006 330i where there has not ever been complaints on Tip Lag etc. on there Steptronic system.
Just my thoughts!
What exactly is Tip lag? I see this mentioned a lot. I assume it's something to do with their automatic transmission. Having only driven stick most of my life, I don't know what the issues are here.
What does this have to do with tip lag?
When watching my boat owning friends pilot their boats, I noticed that they all do one thing in common: they all work the various controls (rudder, trim and throttle, e.g.) before they want the boat to react. There is a lag between the time the wheel (rudder) is turned, the prop reversed and the desired action, that is.
Tiptronic lag (TL) drives/feels a bit like that. TL also feels somewhat like turbo lag, perhaps severe turbo lag in some instances.
My own experiences with TL are likened to another phenom -- flat spots. When growing up, learning to drive my parents Chrysler Newport (which was a 1963 model) when it needed a tune up and sometimes when it was "cold," I would depress the accelerator and instead of the engine revving and the car picking up speed, it would behave as if I had hit a wall of jello. This flat spot, often caused me some consternation and I would floor the accelerator and then the car would downshift (auto trans) and the engine would roar to life and the car would lunge forward with all the grunt the Chrysler's V8 could muster.
Likewise, with Tip lag, I experienced a temporary (usually no more than 2 seconds) delay from the time I pressed the accelerator until the car actually seemed to respond appropriately -- kind of like the boat analogy.
My primary isolation of the conditions under which this would happen lead me to learn to adapt to my adaptable transmission (!?!)
For me, TL would happen most often in the instance of the "rolling stop." Of course if there is a 4 way stop (sign, not light) a rolling stop is technically illegal. Well, that's another subject.
Imagine this:
You are approaching an intersection and you are travelling at the legal speed limit du jour. The light is red, you take you foot off the accelerator, coast, begin braking and as you approach the light and you are slowing 10, 8, 5, 2mph (approximately) -- in other words the car is still moving but your "attitude" clearly is that if you continue your current pedal pressure, you will stop. Then just as you enter the last few yards before stopping the light turns green and you remove your foot from the brake and press the accelerator. Tip lag often happens here at this exact moment.
Here's what happens: when you press the accelerator anticipating the car will begin re-accelerating from 2 or 3mph and if this is an instance where tip lag happens, the car will "do nothing" it is almost as if you had released the brake, pushed the shift lever to neutral and taken your foot OFF the accelerator pedal. You hit a wall of jello, so to speak. One M-I-S-S-I-S-S-I-P-P-I and whoosh, the car lunges back to life and jerks with acceleration commensurate with the HP and Torque of your Audi engine.
This whoosh effect happens, typically, because when the car refused your first normal depress of the accelerator, you press it further (sometimes instinctively almost as a reflex), sometimes if the conditions were that you were approaching a green light, slowing and the light goes yellow and you sense you can make the light on "pink" -- you attempt to accelerate and if tip lag happens, well you floor the car.
Whoosh -- 1963 Chrysler Newport with torque flight transmission and in need of a tune up, flat spot -- ahhhhhhh the memories.
I found tip lag was generally annoying -- when it was in my Audi A8 I was ticked off that my $71,000 car had the audacity to perform this way.
The cure is to reset the Tip program EVERY time you get in the car.
1. turn key to on position
2. press the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold it (2 seconds, maybe 4, I can't remember)
3. release the accelerator pedal
4. start the car normally.
This is the reset of the tip trans program and once I found out about it, from the Audi Car Club, I enjoyed more or less "tip-lag-free" driving from my Audi A8 and 2 Audi A6 4.2's that I had from 1997 through 2002.
Despite protestations to the contrary, I do believe Audi is NOT THE ONLY company to have this kind of "adaptive" transmission "features" that replicate the scenario and analogy I have employed to demonstrate "Tiptronic Lag."
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the great explanation! This is *exactly* what I noticed on my first test drive of the B7's. I'd depress the accelerator, nothing would happen, and I would instinctively press a little harder, then--woosh--we were off to the races. I felt like a student driver.
Somebody else on this board said that he test drove B7's on a driving course, and said that it's the smoothest transmission around. What might explain his not noticing this problem? Could it be they were resetting the computer before driving? He couldn't have missed it if it was happening.
This issue seems insane to me. Why have a feature that demonstrably doesn't work, and that can be fixed by just turning it off? I don't get it.
Have your heard for sure that the B7 can be fixed by the reset procedure you suggested?
Does the car behave any better in S mode? There was a lot of talk about S vs. D in relation to this issue, but I couldn't sort it out.
Great example by Mark and to add personal experience as well, I could not explain it better myself.
Miles, maybe the guy who drove the B7 on the track never rolled to a stop like Mark explained but just hauled [non-permissible content removed] around the track pushing the quattro to its limits etc.
Anyway, I don't think the Tip Lag is a feature as you mentioned but more of a circumstance of Audi's Automatic Transmissions. I don't think they can turn it off or else I have to imagine they would!
I guess my real burning question is how does the Steptronic version in BMW's auto tranny not have this issue and audi does?
I wish they did not have this issue cause I feel this car is a real contender for the 330i for me. They both are going to come in equally priced, we will see if lease rates are comparable but I think the B7 looks great. Going to test both of them hard in same circumstances, push both the auto trannies to determine the amount of or lack of Tip Lag in each, comfort and driving fun.
Last thought Miles, if you wait until the 2006 B7 version comes out this summer, it will have a manual transmission, as well as S-line etc.
I am getting either the 2006 330i or the 2006 B7 S-Line.
I am sick of renting a car for the last 12 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, I want to get an automatic so my wife will finally learn to drive. But I'm already beginning to regret switch to automatic.
Mark says the "feature" can be turned off (or at least reset) by depressing the accelerator before starting the car. Crazy, but believable.
I would like to get AWD. Haven't been following BMW closely, but I don't think the 2006 330xi is out, is it? I love everything about the B7, except for the tip lag, so it's a little disappointing.
Please let me know if you get a chance to test drive the B7 with automatic. I plan to redo the test, trying Mark's trick, and also trying S mode to se if it works any better. Let's compare notes after testing.
Can tip lag be avoided by shifting the tiptronic manually? I did not even try this. Figuring it would be an unsatisfying substitute for a true manual, I left the cars in D during the test drives. I also wonder if S would be any better. I will try your rest trick next time.
Sounds good, and no the 2006 330xi won't be out until sept/Oct of this year.
The feature cannot be turned off. I have heard in cases that it has been successful to do what Mark said and others it has not worked. I personally don't feel comfortable purchasing a $40,000+ vehicle and having to retrain the tranny every time I get into to drive it; then hope that retraining actually really works and that is not a placebo affect on my mind.
What you might want to do is go to the edmunds Audi A6 forum and read through the last couple months of comments to learn about people's experiences that have actually purchased the 3.2 A6. Then ask that Tip Lag question to those people who drive that car regularly.
liferules, "Audi A6" #5279, 3 Mar 2005 7:21 pm!make=Audi&model=A6&ed_makeindex=.ee9e705
Anyway, let me know what you find out!
You had a good suggestion. I went over to the A6 forum, and searched for the phrase "tip lag". I did find one reference to it. I also posted an inquiry. I'll let you know if I get any replies.
I agree with you that it's crazy to have to perform a reset procedure every time you drive a $40k car. Of course, it's also crazy to suffer the poorer reliability of an expensive German car as compared with a Honda Accord, for example, and yet I will probably do it. Stupid, I know.
Do you know if any of the 2006 3-series are in the showrooms yet? If I liked the 330i, I might be willing to wait for the 330xi.
Recently, we took a new BMW X3 auto trans (3.0 engine) for a test drive; we also drove a Mercedes C320 and an Audi A4 3.2.
Each car has its unique interpretation of "Tip" lag. The BMW transmission seemed busy busy busy contanstly up and down shifting sometimes at "inappropriate" times -- Step Hunt would be what I would call it -- and it is not pleasant and certainly not Premium Class feeling.
I have test driven the Infiniti M35x and its own quirks could be mitigated in the sport position.
To make a point: none of these transmissions is as satisfying, precise or able to imbue the driver with the feeling of control and "performance" (dare I add, fun) that the super slick BMW manual imparts. Indeed, the new A4 transmissions have now entered the super slick zone, too.
As for "auto trans" for "the wife" -- wow, if my wife saw this in print, I think she would probably react as the faculty of Harvard reacted when Harvard's president suggested women "can't do math" [sic]. Many of us had to learn to drive with a stick shift (we had two cars when I was growing up and one of them always had a stick shift) and that always seemed to be the car I was "insured" to drive. I drove a VW bug and a Plymouth "satellite" (and that one didn't even have a synchronized first gear on its three on the tree configuration.)
If someone wants to have an automatic that is fine and dandy with me. But I would certainly want to allow that person to make an informed decision, especially once you realize the current generation of automatics each have their quirks, lags, hunts, surges, flat spots, whatever.
Only the Audi CVT of all the cars with autos I have tested and/or been loaned while my car was in for service, seems to have avoided this.
Probably the BMW and Audi full automatic manuals (DSG SMG) too have overcome this "feature."
I look at it this way, to this day I have to re-boot my PC becuase of some kind of "fatal error" or another (and I am on XP pro at the latest and greatest PTF on a less than 5 month old PC).
Sometimes I miss DOS.
The current state of the art of automatic transmissions is very advanced. The fact that tip, step and gear-tronic transmissions are each frought with "unwanted" features, apparently just goes with the territory.
A daily alt-control-delete sequence, just doesn't seem THAT big a deal if you are fully aware of the performance advantages of a manual transmission but simply elect NOT to employ them.
Let your wife learn with a stick and if she chooses an auto later, no harm no foul.
Thanks for the input. The issue in my household is that my wife doesn't know how to drive at all. Learning to drive in your 40s in the center of a congested city is not so easy, even without the complication of learning stick. (Not to mention the car you learn in being a brand new luxury car). This isn't sexist - my wife's a brain (she has a PhD) - but she happens not to be tremendously well coordinated. I am not generalizing about other women.
I'm going to redo the test drive this week, play with D, S, and the reset trick you suggested. If that proves unsatisfying, I will take the only reasonable course of action, which is to leave my wife.
By the way, my test drive of the G35x revealed no flaky transmission behavior to speak of. The gear shifts were very smooth and seemed to come at the right time. Unfortunately, while I like the way it drives, I hate the way it looks, particularly the cheapo interior. Superficial, I know, but I'll be spending a lot of time in it.
Thanks again for all your input, Mark. It's been very helpful.
The 330i hits showrooms across the country in April. If you are interested, go to the BMW usa homepage and look for the 3 across america tour. It will show you a map of where they will be in your part of the country.
With that being said, I still want to test the B7 cause i love the look of audis.
I have not personally driven and X3 so i cannot comment on that transmission as well as any Tip Lag per say. I have owned and driven a 2003 530i which I believe has a different transmission than the bottom of the line X3. I never in the 3 months I had the car had any Tip Lag issues and I kept that baby in Sport mode the whole time.
I guess the key is to drive the new B7 in as many conditions as possible and drive the 330i ( in my case ) and determine which ride is better suited for you. I will say the nice option that is available on the 330i now is a manual 6 speed. As well the 2006 B7 will have a manual 6 speed also.
By the way, when will the B7 be out in full force in dealerships around the country?
I'll look for the 3-series as you suggested. As far as I know, the B7's are out. My local dealer, at least, has loads of them.
Hey, I'm not intending to slam the BMW transmission -- as I recall BMW and Audi source their transmissions from the same manufacturer. I suspect tip lag and step hunt are programmed in and are NOT truly bugs -- the programmers probabaly simply write the programs controlling the shift behavior differently.
Those of us who prefer manual transmissions are more or less tolerant of this -- I have a greater tolerance than my wife for instance.
Also interested in the mileage question. Of course I'd like to pay less for gas but the range is just as important to me as well, and the tank on these cars is 5 litres (over a US gallon) smaller than on my current BMW. So I need better mileage (thinking 2.0T here) than my current car to maintain the range, 90% highway driving.
Jeff
It should be virtually free -- as in included in some package.
I do not think I would buy a car TODAY without it.
To each his/her own, however.
Heavy foot, size 12 ( 47 euro).
I hope I don't fall into this category, largely because I am not a casual cellphone user and am very aware that I am on the phone for those few seconds when I say I'll be back home in XX minutes, goodbye. All that said though I'd rather have the ability to use bluetooth than not, and especially the iPod integration, so I would weigh that in deciding when to buy if that was a factor - but I just don't know.
My car allows full handsfree and eyesfree use of the telephone. A car equipped with bluetooth and voice recognition will do all of this and probably more features and functions will be added as manufacturers come up with more "stuff" that is bluetooth enabled.
Any dialing or looking activity that requires your hands or eyes should only be done while the car is NOT moving. Few of us would ever do this (stop the car that is).
Any system that permits both hands and eyes free use of a technology is, by my definition, safer or at least potentially so (any advantage even if small, is a good thing).
I am in favor of retaining phone call capabilities in a car while driving but ONLY via hands and eyes free technology.
I fear that if we do not employ this technology that "governments" (local, state, federal, whatever) may attempt to legislate safety by disallowing (or making the cost so high it has the same effect) cell phone conversations while driving.
Watch someone pull out of his/her driveway in front of you (a bit too close for comfort) -- it certainly seems that 2 out of 3 times that person is on the phone from the very first RPM of the engine.
We've met the enemy and it is us.
Bluetooth is a luxury feature for the time being, but I think it is a safety feature that will soon be in even the least expensive cars.
I too would rather not end up being legislated out of being able to use the phone in a moving car (NY state I think has this law now?) but you're right - too many people just can't seem to appreciate the alone time that their car gives them and end up using these things constantly. I am hyper-aware when I'm on a phone in the car because its so unnatural for me to do so. Like I said, I only do it to quickly convey ETA info, not broker business deals. So I do think that you can talk on a phone safely but it does take some thought and restraint, both of which are in short supply for most people. Even when conversing with a passenger like my wife in the car I will pay most attention to the road and tail of in the middle of a sentence and have no idea where to pick it back up because I'm just focused on the road - and I do the same thing if I'm on the phone. I also don't feel the need to make eye-contact with her either as so many people seem to.
My worst problem with gadgets is probably my GPS when I'm on a road trip with my motorcycle. I will futz with it while on-road to the detriment of my riding - the default for the GPS is to not allow this while moving but of course I override this and do it anyway. I do try to make sure I have the route I want to take (as opposed to the route the GPS wants me to take) well programmed in and even have the voice instructions piped through to my helmet, but sometimes you just need to adjust the zoom level etc. when trying to negotiate the correct ramp, turn, etc.
Good Luck.
DL
fwiw I was offered 1k off without even haggling. On a low optioned car.
DL
I really like the exterior look and the sport package with the 17" 5-double spoked rims are great. I had a chance to sit in the S4 with the Recaro seats and I hated them. Why did I sit in the S4 you may ask, because the S-Line is going to have those seats as part of the package for 2006 along with badging, 18" rims special steering wheel etc. I thought I would be interested in the S-Line but as of today am not.
So what I have learned for myself is to compare the 2006 A4 to the 2006 330i.
2006 A4:
lighting package
sports package
premium package
cold weather package
Bluetooth
Upgraded leather option
2006 330i:
Cold Weather Package
Premium Package
Sport Package
Steptronic Transmission
Both cars will come in very similarly priced around 43k ish, we will see about leasing prices because both companies have no options available yet. My decision will come down to how well the car drives, how comfortable to car is to drive in ( seats ) purchase or lease prices and the overall "wow" factor.
My still one concern for the Audi is the Tip Lag issue we have heard about on the new A6 3.2 models. Any input on this would be appreciated.
Thanks
And, comparing the A4 3.2 to the 330i (unless you meant 330xi) is an easy call -- go with the quattro equipped car.
This probably will preciptate some debate which is not my intention. So I'll sum it up: "did too" "did not" "did too" and so forth: "AWD" "no RWD" "are you kidding, that's only good when there's no slick stuff, AWD" "awww you're nuts, RWD with four good snow tires and chains and traction control works just fine -- RWD" "the advantages of AWD are NOT simply for low friction surfaces we've been over this a million times AWD" -- and so on.
Sorry, I just wanted to tell you to go with the A4 if the comparo is between the 330i and NOT the 330ix.
I'll shut up now.
So, my question is, am I in the minority when I state, I find the new corporate grille to be atrocious?
I first started getting really interested in cars in the late 90s, right about when the car industry began to experience a styling renaissance, IMO. There were lots of gorgeous offerings from most of the makes, and IMO, Audi and VW were two of the most apparent and obvious winners in the looks department.
Among the Audi line-up, the A4 seemed especially exquisitly proportioned and beautifully styled (plus I really like small cars). The face seemed so friendly and harmonious. It seemed to be the perfect embodiment of what a simple yet elegant car should look like, almost a charicature.
Fast foward to now. To me the grille looks completely out-of-place and unharmonious. It's been compared to the 300, but I think the big difference is the placement of the license plate holder. You have this huge thick slab slapped right into the middle of the grille. It reminds me of how Chevy chose to slap a random silver bar across the face of all their cars just for the sake of having a corporate face.
So to me, what they've done to the A4 (and the A6 etc.) is only more offensive when considering how gorgeous the previous models were. It's not quite as bad as what they've done to the Jetta (now the nicest corolla on the market), but it's enough to cross the A4 off my list.
I would've much preferred if they had stuck to the old face, performed a few minor styling changes and instead focused their efforts on improving reliability and mechanical features, just as they did in the last restyling.
But what do I know? I guess the marketplace will be the final judge. Maybe my tastes are slipping out of touch with mainstream society, which would be a bit disturbing to me since I'm only 27. (There's a lot of other styling trends in other makers that I don't agree with as well)
However, I may also be in the minority by not being that heavily swayed by exterior styling - its quite a bit lower on my overall points system than interior design and ergonomics since you spend a lot more time on the inside looking out, and that's POV where I want to absolutely love the car's looks from (see the new BMW 3 for how not to do the interior!). Close second is probably handling/driving excitement/engine performance, where performance isn't just measured in which has the most power - all cars today will get my licence suspended in short order and none have the power to weight advantage of my bike.
Or maybe I'm just saying all this because some people have commented on the size of my own schnoz - I prefer to think of it as a regal nose!
The new Cadillacs CTS, SRX and STS for instance have also been for some a love hate kind of thing, I like them, however.
Now that the corp look for Audi is, for the foreseeable future, set in chrome, so to speak, I see little that we mere mortals can do to make any thing at all happen in this regard.
I say live with it -- I guess we could have a car forum that discusses our personal likes and dislikes with respect to styling (there probably is something like that here already).
I think the new A4 is a good looking car, ditto the A6 -- I like the previous gen, too.
The new A4 3.2 seems, at this point in time to be a bit odd in that it ought to be in BMW's face, but with ONLY an auto trans at this point, well, that just seems like poor planning on Audis part.
The A4 line seems to attract the more sporting of the Audi customer set. Regardless of the true numbers of people who actually buy a stick shift, there is some corporate statement that is made when a new release comes out and apparently distances itself from the traditions of "European Sporting Sedan" -- that are implied via a stick shift.
I would rather debate things that we may actually be able to affect (options, marketing, configurations) rather than design elements. Car design is, as we all know, subjective. Audi made a choice, they didn't ask us in advance what we thought, apparently. I am not turned off by the new look, indeed I applaud their willingness to show they can look different.
The Japanese mfgs are just now starting to go down the individuality path -- what has taken them so long?
My main displeasure with styling, if anyone really cares, is when things like the Pontiac Aztec come out -- I mean really, was this thing ever vetted with any focus groups? Other than their use on the TV show Dark Angel, who found that vehicle attractive?
You have some strong points. I live in Northern Calif. south of San Francisco, where there is no snow or ice type of conditions. I am not quite sure I "need" quattro. So the AWD vs. RWD debate may not be super strong with my situation.
So the comparison is with the S-Line 2006 A4 vs a similarly loaded 2006 330i. Configurator put both of them about equally priced for a purchase but have no idea on either for leasing.
Anyway, much more research is needed on my part over the next several months; test drives pricing ( leasing and purchasing numbers )etc.
Mark, what is your thought on leasing if you drive 20k miles per year on a 36 month lease. I realize I would have to purchase miles up front which should be less expensive than paying the extra miles when i turn the car in.
I have always purchased cars but they have been hondas or jeeps etc; not luxury sports cars. I ideally would like to turn the car over every 3 years or so for a new one. I get reimbursed ( car allowance )a decent chunk of change per month by my company and can take additional tax reimbursements as well.
I realize the residual value of the car will be less with 20k miles per year over 15k miles which means the lease payment will be higher for the residual value and also higher for the miles. Question is, how do you lease a car and keep it under warranty up to the 60-65k range in 3 years? Also, would this scenario warrant a finance/purchase?
Lastly, another forum on this question suggested getting the 15k mile package then toward the end of the lease, the financial services dept of ( BMW ) calls you to ask if you want to extend your lease or buy more miles. This eliminates the residual value dropping on the car at the very beginning of the lease thus saving you some money monthly; you still end up paying for the miles on the car obviously which i am fine with.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Here is a comment on the A6 forum re: Tip Lag. More proof that something just ain't right. Go to the A6 forum under post # 5334.
Thanks to the person who sent the post of the S-Line seats that are coming out in the 2006 A4. Glad they are not the Recaros.
If you're going to drive 20K miles per year, here's what i'd do: look for a 2 year old CPO car with 20K miles on it. The CPO will extend the warranty to 6 years 100K miles, leaving you with 4 years and 80K miles.
Of course, this assumes local dealers aren't asking absurd prices for CPO cars.
I'm with you on the RWD/quattro thing. To me, quattro just means it's not FWD. And i live in chicago!
Thanks anyway
You might consider one of those special quasi lease/buy programs (on Audi's website), too.
This is what I used to think of as an open ended lease -- lower payments, chance to build equity and more of the "ownership" responsibilities -- of course if at 35 months and 29 days you have 60,000 miles on the car, you may find you don't want to keep it beyond the term, regardless of your cost (if any) to walk away.
German (European cars, generally) of the Premium or even near Premium ilk are breathtakingly expensive to repair out of warranty. Sadly their reliability beyond 50,000 miles has taken quite a hit over the past few years (but presumably both Audi and BMW have in their newer models moved up that scale). Moreover, these EGPC (Euro-German-Premium-Cars) depreciate very rapidly making them "less fun" to either lease or buy, but I think less fun to buy (please no arguments, I understand both lease and buy camps are represented here and can articulate their reasons for doing one versus the other.)
If only you could acquire an EGPC for zero or near zero % interest rates for 3,4 or 5 years and buy a 100,000 mile warranty at 49,999 miles (this latter thing you can do, the former, not so much).
Under the circumstances, I would go for the car of these two that you personally enjoy the most and factor in the residual value of the car.
Recently I have found that BMW's for instance appear to have a higher residual making them less expensive to lease than less expensive Audis.
Still, if the BMW 330i is about the same MSRP as the Audi A4 3.2, I can only repeat that the Audi is a "better deal" since it includes about $2000 of AWD hardware, which IMO, will improve the value of your car and the performance and safety regardless of your annual snowfall.
Time is fleeting as we all know, it would seem to me that the new BMW will (or ought to) drive down the A4's acquisition cost -- since the Audi will not be getting as much media buzz once there's a new BMW 3 for sale.
Hope this helps.
Yes, I guess I am behaving a bit spoiled here. I've heard that remark a number of times regarding the new grille: give it time and it grows on you. I just feel like the old Audi look never had to grow on anyone. At a glance, it was immediately elegant and distinct.
I'm glad that other makers, such as the Japanese, are making an effort to grasp at a stylistic identity. I hope they just don't grab a style just for the sake of having one.
I was the one who sent the pix of the S-line seats.
Thanks for the heads-up about the A6 tip lag. At least the A6 owner's story had a happy ending.
I am considering to buy the A4 Avant 2.0T with the Premium, lighting, cold weather and sport - all season tires - packages (vs. just the 17" wheels). I am considering the DVD navigation system too . As my 92 Honda Civic has either a headgasket or cylinder head leak, I will have to buy soon and will not be able to wait until the 2006 A4 offers Bluetooth, or until the new 325 xi becomes available. Following questions:
1. Is there a way to make hands/eyes free telephoning possible in the 2005.5 A4 without ruining the nice interior? E.g. with aftermarket equipment? (My current LG 4400 Verizon cell-phone does not have Bluetooth).
2. Sports suspension with all seasons vs. 17" wheels only: Mark seems very much in favor of the sports suspension. I drove an A4 with sports suspension today and found it very nice and not significantly less comfortable on a bumpy road than the regular suspension (in the US the regular suspension apparently has more ground clearance than the European "regular" suspension) . Furthermore, the car looks much better with sports suspension. However, I do live in New Hampshire with at times lots of snow, many pot holes and bumpy roads, and the Audi salesman on my side told me that he felt the difference between sports and regular suspension even on the parking lot. I did not have a chance to test the at the limits handling of the car with and without sports suspensions. Has anyone tried the new sports suspension on expansion joints, bumpy roads, etc for a while?
3. I have not had a chance to drive an 2005.5 A4 with a working Navigation system. The dealer today did not have the appropriate DVD. Does anyone know, how well the current Navigation Plus system for the A4 covers the more rural areas of the US?
Thank you for your input!