Sebring, you mentioned space heaters and yes that's what I've been planning. Most 12v car heaters I've seen are pretty weak for our harsh Canadian winters. So will be getting one of those ceramic 110v home heater fan and I prolly an inverter to go with it. A real kludge really as all those wires and fan will be pain inside the car but what the heck, I'm trying to save money here so can't complain too much.
The market for a used Prius here in Canada isn't too great yet for the price. Mine goes at around Cdn $17.5K, which is what a brand new basic Civic or Corolla would go. Canadians are smart value oriented consumers and that price is a hard sell. I imagine once the price dips below 15 grand, there will be takers. Plus heres the rub, mine got some needed repairs I inherited right off the dealer. Unfortunately as hard as I tried to have them fixed, they refused. I even called Toyota Canada but they stood by their dealer. So I figure I'm just gonna let them have the problem back at lease end.
Anyway, lets stop talking about my Prius as this is a Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI thread. The only reason I posted here was to point out some hybrid advantages in winter which I've already mentioned in prevous posts. I havent mentioned yet that due to the large batteries and big electric motors doubling as starters, starting is much more gentler to the ICE than conventional cars. You should try starting a hybrid, there is no falter, starts very gently, and is an amazingly quiet event.
On the Jetta TDI, I test drove a 97 last weekend. I was surprised at the noise. From reviews and comments I've read I expected a lot less noise in the freeway but I was severely disappointed. My '00 Mazda MPV with its tiny 2.5 litre engine reving at 3000rpm sounded lexus quiet on the way home in comparison.
I also conked out the engine turning back to the dealer... tsk tsk tsk. Gotta work on that stick shift skills again. At home I learned in the net TDI's could be shifted without me stepping on the accelerator (true?), so kept that in my mental file for future use.
The net review of VW's also is very scary, one even advised not owning a Vdub if you are not mechanically enclined to fixing your own car as it can be very expensive if you have to bring it to the shop often. Man...with the disappointing test drive and lousy reliability reviews, I'm almost ready to chicken out on this.
Can anybody pls give me a more reasurring reviews than this?
I too sat inside an Insight before I got my Prius. That super efficient engine was very tempting, but I had to give in to my practical needs which with 2 kids needed four doors.
However today here in Canada, if I were in the market for a new 2 door I would consider the Smart with its 6 speed auto manual. But thats just only me as I would try to run it in Biodiesel or SVO.
I have a question. Do you get low sulfur diesel in Canada? Do you have a good variety of diesel vehicles to choose from? I think they made some big changes in the TDI for 2004 VW Jetta. I have also thought of the Jetta Wagon TDI for a runabout car.
Nope, the warts and all description works for me! In addition I have a Honda Civic VP (yes I know this is a Hybrid thread)So if you look at the so called "recommended" service intervals (either owners manuals, shop manuals or on line Honda owners link)it appears that Honda has a recommended service interval for all reasons and all seasons. Sure you can pick and chose! All you need to do is assign dealers dollar values to each service reason and season, and I am sure you will walk away wondering how the Honda Civic was voted to be the very lowest cost per mile runner in it's class??
On the VW Jetta TDI, I currently run 15,000-20,000 mile oil and filter change intervals! The Honda Civic dealer (one of the absolute best in this area within a 50 mile radius, I might add) did an absolute full court press to sign me up for 5,000 mile oil and filter change intervals!!!!!
Honda Civic was always a contender in my book for a daily driver commute car! I got the 2004 Honda Civic VP almost as a no brainer due to the fact that I was almost pleasantly shocked to find out my 2003 Jetta TDI was selling for more than I paid for it new. I was also eligible for a 1,000 dollar prior owners discount with VW. This would have dropped the purchase price significantly below invoice. Unfortunately no new TDI products for 2004/5 was available in CA! Honda was willing to sell a new car significantly below invoice. Ths combine with the fact that a one year old model was indeed selling on the market for more than I paid for it new.
My goals are thus: 1. 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles with the diesel 2003 Jetta TDI 2. 250,000 miles with the 2004 Honda Civic VP
My goals are thus: 1. 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles with the diesel 2003 Jetta TDI 2. 250,000 miles with the 2004 Honda Civic VP
Did you keep the Jetta or trade it in? How do they compare in handling and braking. One reason I am interested in a diesel, is the next time the middle east squeezes off our oil I can head to McDonalds for a fillup of old cooking oil.....
In the below case I believe this fellow would have been happier with the Jetta TDI. Hybrid is not for everyone. To get the great mileage you have to be careful the way you drive. With the TDI VWs just drive like it was any other car and you get the great mpg you expect. Many posters claim high 40s driving 75-80 mph. That will not happen with any hybrid. He was a fool not to do more research before he got caught up in the Hybrid hype...
Pete Blackshaw. The Cincinnati marketing exec bought a Honda Civic hybrid last year and proudly outfitted it with MO MILES vanity plates. But instead of the 48mpg his window sticker promised, he gets 33mpg. "All I want is a damn car that lives up to its promise," he gripes, "and that won't make my wife repeatedly tell me I'm a big fool."
Sebring, you mentioned space heaters and yes that's what I've been planning. Most 12v car heaters I've seen are pretty weak for our harsh Canadian winters. So will be getting one of those ceramic 110v home heater fan and I prolly an inverter to go with it. A real kludge really as all those wires and fan will be pain inside the car but what the heck, I'm trying to save money here so can't complain too much.
Uhhh, I don't use a space heater on my car. The heater I use is a 1000 watt Zero-start brand coolant heater. It's hooked into the coolant lines and the plug is located in my front grille. It heats and circulates the coolant (i have it on a timer) and when I start the car it instantly blows hot-air through the HVAC system. You can buy one already set-up for the TDI motor at www.tdiheater.com
I believe you'll find the newer diesels to be quieter than a 1997 model. Not only are the engines a bit different, the new ones have more sound deadening and ride a completely different chassis. 1999 was the first year for the newer diesels, with slightly updated motors again in 2004. Fuel quality also effects noise levels. My TDI is very quiet on the highway, most folks have no clue it's a diesel. With the exception of idling, I think it's very quiet and I drive/own a couple luxury vehicles as well. It's not Lexus quiet, but not many vehicles are, lol!
I still have the TDI! It is a youngin at 44,000 miles! (break in is said to be at app 60,000 miles (full compression) )
Handling and braking by the numbers is actually pretty similar. Feeling wise, for me the verdict is still out(not enough miles at 2500). The Civic seems to have a more nervous ride (faster ocillations) Contrary to what I have been lead to believe, the consumable replacement parts are actually cheaper on the VW Jetta!!?? This is surprizing for my rice rocket vendors indicated WAY more choices and options that say the pickled herring side.
In regards to your "do you want fries with that?" comment, all you need is a roughly 1800 dollar portable processing unit and I am sure the places that pay folks to take old cooking oil away will be almost glad to GIVE it to you, although I have not dug into the regulations that govern oil disposal. The salesman that sold me my TDI indicates that he planted 8 acres in soybeans with the calculation that it should be enough for his diesel fuel needs per year!!(plus a slight profit i.e.,at worst: no cost for energy for a years time!! (He's got farm tractors, diesel van and a VW TDI Jetta wagon) I guess I should go up to visit him and talk more seriously about this with him!! He also goes to those classes in Berkeley CA about alternative fuels!
I am starting to see that getting a biodiesel system going is regulatory intense and challenged!!! A member of our VW TDI get together group brought down some biodiesel (from the Berkely coop or some such), but I had to decline for I was filled already!
gagrice - Nope I don't think we have low sulfur diesel here, but not 100% sure. I guess we are in the same boat with this diesel thing and used vegetable oil. It does remain to be seen if I will go thru with it as you know there is this laziness/business factor. But it's always good to know I can do that if I have to.
What the auto makers, the politicians and the world leaders don't know is how serious the average consumer is about this energy + environment issue is. I'm no tree hugger or greenie and I my income is not excessive, yet I voted with my money on the hybrid when I could not realy afford it becuase I thought that was the only solution back then. Now, I'm hoping this diesel/used veggie oil will give me what I want for lesser.
Now if ordinary Joe's like us are looking into this (and I really mean ordinary when talking about me), there IS a strong undercurrent going on here, and that right or wrong is why I think the Hybrids are selling.
ruking1, when you said that fits your description did you mean the spotty vdub reliability or the techy know how? (both?) How much do I have to know to keep a vdub running for the least $$$? What about those timing belt changes, do I really have to have them changed as soon as I buy a used Jetta?
No one wants more dirty diesels on the road, more smog, more lung cancer, more headaches. This is not Europe; people here in the USA will NEVER accept diesels in huge numbers like over there.
He can get 48 "clean" MPG in his Hybrid by slowing down and driving more fuel consciously. It's for COMMUTING, not HOT RODDING. I'm AMAZED by how many people ZOOM BY ME when I'm doing at or slightly below the speed limit and then HELLO there we sit by them at the next red light. Most people drive like DUMMIES and waste a TON of fuel just zooming between red lights.
Hybrid is not hype if you embrace it and live with it...I'm getting 46.6 over about 4000 miles in my HCH, with a VERY "mpg unfriendly" short commute on city streets, no hwy usage at all, and using HEAVY A/C in July/Aug/Sept in Phoenix.
I'm taking a road trip to TX in December which will force me to drive 75-80 MPH to keep with the flow, a loaded car (two kids and me plus bags) and we will see how well the HCH does under those circumstances. I hope to get at least 40 MPG. But this is a once or twice a year trip - not the norm.
"Uhhh, I don't use a space heater on my car. The heater I use is a 1000 watt Zero-start brand coolant heater. It's hooked into the coolant lines and the plug is located in my front grille. It heats and circulates the coolant (i have it on a timer) and when I start the car it instantly blows hot-air through the HVAC system. You can buy one already set-up for the TDI motor at www.tdiheater.com"
Thanks for that info. I wonder tho how that will interact with the SVO kits I read in greasel or greasecar. Those kits seem to use the same heat source to heat up the used oil tank.
1999 TDI's? Man that's out of my leaque again for now. My Prius is 2001, just 2 years difference so the prices won't be that far away anyway to make a difference. Now if I could find a high mileage 1999 maybe that'll be much cheaper, hmmm....
Well first of all without a doubt the VW has a higher % of problematic cars especially over Hondas! I am starting to appreciate the tech know how is good even for Civics! Lets just say that for me to overcome the bad press and to adopt a comfort level I was resigned to do a lot more maintenance DIY on my VW JETTA TDI than say my Toyota Landcruisers which I bring to a very good dealer! I have to say that so far the Honda 2500 miles has absolutely nothing wrong with it and the VW Jetta with 44,000 miles also has had nothing wrong with it!!
Insofar as changing the timing belts, having the vehicles history would be helpful. Otherwise because it is so critical (expensive) if it breaks, sometimes without the historical knowledge it might be better to change the belt, which would establish a KNOWN baseline!
The Honda Civic requires a timing belt change at 120,000 miles vs TDI at 100,000 miles. So really both vehicles are in the same boat. Inidcations are the prices are app the same for this procedure.
Eooww....never realized Honda's have to change timing belts either.
I'm just now beginning to appreciate my MPV's Ford duratec engine. For all it's suspect origin it at least uses a timing chain that doesn't need replacement and doesn't clatter. 5 years and 110k km later it's only run smoother.
Thanks for the info, guess I'll need to do more research on this vdub thing, see if I can stand the reliability issue. Should also look for other diesel engines out there - maybe some old Toyota PU diesel.
Thanks for that info. I wonder tho how that will interact with the SVO kits I read in greasel or greasecar. Those kits seem to use the same heat source to heat up the used oil tank.
Most of the grease kits I've seen use the coolant of the car to heat the grease. Soooo, the faster your coolant heats up, the faster you can switch to grease. The Zerostart heater should be a huge asset if you're running an SVO vehicle.
As for prices, I guess you'll have to figure that out. I don't know the TDI market in Canada at all. If you're shopping a TDI, I would find a private seller that way you know the repair history. I'm probably selling mine soon and already have someone interested in it, simply because private-sale TDI's with pristine maintenance histories are easy to sell. But they can be good buys too.
I have a Jetta TDI wagon with 40,000 miles and not one problem. A couple friends of mine have VW's (one diesel, one gas) and neither of them have problems - the diesel has just under 100k miles - it's never needed anything outside of normal maintenance and with window regulator thing.
There are two issues that really hit VW reliability - one was a faulty design of the power windows regulator, the old design had a nylon part that would break causing the window to fall into the door. VW redesigned the regulator and replaced all the faulty ones (even if the car was way out of warranty), plus put a 7 year warranty on them - problem solved.
The next issue was coil packs - obviously not a diesel issue. VW's supplier of coil packs for the gas engines had quality control issues. VW found an different supplier and replaced every faulty coil pack under warranty - even if the car was way out of warranty.
These two issues are responsible for VW's percieved reliability issues - I'll compare my Jetta to any Honda any day as far as reliability is concerned.
"No one wants more dirty diesels on the road, more smog, more lung cancer, more headaches. This is not Europe; people here in the USA will NEVER accept diesels in huge numbers like over there."
If low sulfur diesel arrives, people will FLOCK to the diesels - they offer a simpler, proven technology to get higher MPG (albeit with slower acceleration). I will certainly buy one if they become available. The important point is that the European diesels are not dirty, they are clean. They are also very fuel efficient and provide tons of torque at low RPMs.
Added to this is the fact that diesel requires less refining than gasoline.
No one wants more dirty diesels on the road, more smog, more lung cancer, more headaches.
I agree, BUT it is the fault of the EPA. They were able to get lead out of gasoline 30 years ago. Why has it taken so long to get the sulfur out of diesel? How many millions of barrels of oil would we have saved if people were driving clean diesel cars as they are in Europe. You want people to give up the efficient diesel engine cars because the EPA & CARB have their heads up you know where. Worse they were probably bought off by the Oil companies. It seems we have had this discussion before. You want to blame the cars for the pollution when it is the fuel that we as little people have very little control over. You would be driving a car burning leaded gas which is even worse than diesel, if it were not for regulations. The bottom line is people want reliable high mileage cars. Diesel cars are proven high mileage vehicles. Hybrids are still unproven for the long haul. Tell me you love your hybrid when it has 150k miles on it...
I'm sure you can get ULSD in Los Angeles. I have a SOCO station that carries BP ECD-1 which is less than 15 PPM. I hope you find a VW TDI with aobut 7500 miles on it. Then it can be licensed in CA.
But hey, that's just me, I doubt anyone else could make the similarities.
I admit being biased against diesel cars. Back in the 1970's the mags & reviews said the technology had matured and my dad bought one. An Isuzu, it was difficult to start in the Minnesota winters and really noisy. When it began to stink my dad had it fixed for $$$ and got rid of it.
Then in the 80's the claims were made again for diesel cars, then in the 90's if you were on the highway and saw a heavily smoking car you could bet it was ether one of these...an older Mercedes or Volvo diesel.
Same claims in the 90's of new & improved technology....still today if you are in a drivethrough or on the highway, your eyes begin to sting and "That smell" look for the diesel car, you'll find one almost every time.
So when today the mags & reviews say the technology is new and improved many of us take it with the porverbial "grain of salt"
With the TDI MSPR higher than the HCH and comparable MPG to the average user, the potential for diesel to smoke and the potential $$$ for emission repair, the MFG endless Mag review promises I'll steer clear of it.
"No one wants more dirty diesels on the road, more smog, more lung cancer, more headaches."
I bet you've stood next to a 2000-era diesel car at the pump, and not even realized it. Modern diesels meet the same emissions requirements as gasoline cars with *no visible exhaust.*
still today if you are in a drivethrough or on the highway, your eyes begin to sting and "That smell" look for the diesel car
That stinging can also be from burning unleaded gas in most states. It is also very high in sulfur, causing NoX.
Sounds like you are as hard to convince on diesel as I am on hybrid. It is a matter of proven efficiency vs unproven hybrid technology. I would be more interested after there is a history of many 150k mile hybrids without any major troubles. So far the posters that own VW TDI vehicles have gotten good reliability.
Thanks for the input rickover. What about that so called assembled in Mexico factor, does that really affect the build quality? Because of this I've been considering starting from 1992 and working backwards to the 80's.... man those ones going to be a dog, most advertized I've seen don't even have air.
But they DO seem very reliable, some are still selling at 750k km and I could get one at 300k for just a grand - the ultimate cheapo.
"But they DO seem very reliable, some are still selling at 750k km and I could get one at 300k for just a grand - the ultimate cheapo. "
Some may look at this quote and see part of it as being pejorative, but I do not! One of the overwhelmingly interesting points that really sold me on the TDI and the VW is the 12 year rust through unlimited mile rust warranty and the fact that the TDI engine can easily go 500,000 miles and with some care and inevitable replacement parts 1,000,000 miles!
In the past, I have been fortunate to buy (16,000) and to sell (9,000) a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser, with ownership of 14 years and 250,000 miles.
Not in my wildest dreams, do I expect either the Honda or the VW to duplicate this; but it would be pretty neat if it did or was even close!
"Some may look at this quote and see part of it as being pejorative, but I do not!"
Just in case somebody does, I meant that as a compliment!
My quest is to own a cheap reliable diesel vehicle I can play with to convert to a grease burner. So far, I'm beginning to think this is the way I should go: A pre 1993 Jetta with 300k km for about a grand. At least if I mess it up, I won't end up bawling.... hmmmm.
Just think for less than 3k you have transportation, means of fuel production/conversion and perform a valuable business and environmental service! What is not to like about that!!
"I'm sure you can get ULSD in Los Angeles. I have a SOCO station that carries BP ECD-1 which is less than 15 PPM. I hope you find a VW TDI with aobut 7500 miles on it. Then it can be licensed in CA."
I thought they stopped sales of the TDI in early 2004? Anyway, I'm not in the market at the moment.
It's not the availability, it is the CARB regulations that keep the diesels out of California. Plus, I don't think that any vehicles sold in the US are engineered to take advantage of the ULSD formulation.
Plus, I don't think that any vehicles sold in the US are engineered to take advantage of the ULSD formulation.
The ULSD burns cleaner regardless of any fancy scrubbers, catalysts, etc. Pour some 50 cetane 30ppm ULSD into my TDI and it immediately quiets down, runs smoother, and will NOT puff any smoke under any conditions. The problem is, ULSD is not available everywhere yet, therefore the manufacturers cannot equip the vehicles with additional emissions control that requires ULSD. Biodiesel/blends takes care of the smell, although ULSD is a low aromatic fuel anyway.
"No actually 2003 VW (among others) in the USA are engineered to run the 2006 (new) formulation. "
Won't the engine controls be damaged by the higher sulfer in the fuels? I believe the European models have special scrubbers to remove particulates & etc?
Sulfur poisons the catalytic converter. That's why in Europe, with no-sulfur diesel, the cars are clean, because they can use advanced catalysts to scrub the exhaust.
In the U.S. the sulfur is high, so VW does not install the European catalysts.
Well for sure there is some speculation that is one of the contributing reasons to some folks experiencing EGR valve/system clogging. I am also led to believe that CA diesel is lower in sulfur and also has higher cetane ratings (CA cetane 45 vs 49 state 40 as required by law). I have to admit that I have used significant tank fulls of both and really can't tell much of a difference.
Other than that, I am lead to believe the 2006 standard formulation has higher cetane ratings, much lower sulfur content and resultantly lower structural emissions. Obviously one benefit is cleaner burning and one that is yet untested on the wide scale market is slightly better fuel mileage. My response is yippee, yahoo! A down side might be higher prices! So with the advent of the 2006 formulations the other emissions control products that did not work as well with high sulfur content fuel can now be used. This is a long way of saying CA and the five sister states that have banned the sale of new TDI's have no more structural reasons to do so!
I am not sure I really understand what you are saying? For example, if ULSD fuel came on line today (it is available now but it is 1 scarce 2 more costly, the Arco product comes to mind) on the common market, I could run it on my 2003 TDI (others also) with no adaptation and no equipment damage, as stated in the above post: cleaner emissions and probably better mileage!!?? These other emissions products would further tighten (forwardly) an already tight standard.
I believe what stevedebi is saying is the US models can't count on ULSD fuel so the particle scrubbers etc aren't installed - on a semi related subject here in the Houston Tx area plain ole diesel fuel at the pumps (no ULSD or TxLED program yet) is now the same cost as "premium" gasoline where before (6 months ago) diesel fuel was priced like "regular" gasoline.
Is this price increase just one of those things or are we already paying for ULSD ?
The Civic Hybrid has a catalytic converter that removes NOx. It's clean.
European TDI has the same thing. It's clean too.
American TDIs do not, because the high sulfur fuel would poison the catalyst. So they are dirty (high NOx output).
.
I hope that's clear. That's the simplest way I know to explain it.
"If ULSD fuel came on line today, I could run it on my 2003 TDI with no adaptation and no equipment damage, as stated in the above post: cleaner emissions and probably better mileage!!?? "
NO. SOx would drop, but that is all. It would still be dirty, still the same mpg, still the same car, because you don't have the advanced NOx catalyst like the Euro-TDI & Civic Hybrid has.
Perhaps your expectations/assumptions need to be managed? Works for me! Your point being? I made no assertion or declaration that the non scrubber TDI would run cleaner than a scrubber TDI? If that is your expectation that would be wrong! Nor did I make an assertion that it would be a different car? Now the cetane ratings will be higher, which is closer in spec to the European ratings, hence a probable slight gain in mpg. If you are not familar with cetane and its relationship, may I suggest the Chevron site and also the TDI club if you are so interested. I did however say that the lower sulfur fuel ULSD would burn cleaner than a higher sulfur fuel. If you say it makes no difference, Id be happy to burn the old #2 diesel at the cheaper price, while the scrubber equipt versions pay more for ULSD!!??
Calm down Ruking. I was not attacking you. I was answering your question(s).
And yeah I know about cetane, but you don't need to wait. You can buy 50 cetane right now. Just look for the "premium diesel" logo, which is what I use in my Beetle.
Personally, I can't wait for 2006 when TDIs will be just as clean as the Civic Hybrids.
quote electricTroy-"Personally, I can't wait for 2006 when TDIs will be just as clean as the Civic Hybrids."-end quote....
This is not true. Diesel exhaust will NEVER be as clean as gasoline exhaust. Period. There are more carcinogens in diesel exhaust, and low sulfur does not end that.
2006 Jetta TDI will not be as clean as the 2006 HCH, or in 2008, or in 2012, or 2016.
First, don't you think gasoline contains carcinogens? Go bathe in it sometime, and after you break out in hideous tumors, I think that prove gasoline DOES have carcinogens.
Second, diesels are already cleaner than gasoline in every category except NOx: - 2000 VW Manual Beetle (grams/mile)
----- Gas TDI NOx 1.3 2.7 PMs ----- ----- (not measured) CO2 7.0 4.7 CO 1.10 0.01 HC 0.15 0.00 (evaporative)
VW TDI diesels have already been promoted by fueleconomy.gov's green score:
2000 = 1 2005 = 6
I fully expect to see 2007 = 9 with the European clean-diesel technologies. In other words, equal to a Civic Hybrid.
Actually, it has been for a very long time and will continue to probably grow in the population of crossover (passenger) vehicles).
The funny part is the environmental rules actually encourage the growth! How do you think diesel in Euro is getting to be 65% of the vehicle fleet from a low of 33-45%?
(USA, I'm guessing might be 2% in anybodys wildest dreams and or nightmares)
Pretty easy motivator, just keep raising the price of gasoline!
Fully 98% of our economy is run by some sort of diesel! So say you were able to ban diesel use inside of say a major metropoliton area such as Boston, MA or even NYC. You think they have nightmare traffic problems now!!!!
If you are NOT directly - and I mean directly as in features, seat, ride - comparing the Honda Civic Hybrid v. the TDI, the post will be deleted or moved. I just moved posts to the Hybrid v. Diesel discussion.
Comparing TDI v. Civic Hybrid technologies (HYBRID v DIESEL) will get those posts moved as well.
Another plus for the Jetta is that its torquey turbo-diesel can be driven up Pikes Peak making full power the whole way, leaving the battery-depleted hybrids well below the tree line gasping along on their tiny naturally aspirated gas motors.
Pikes Peak test? Please post your source for this test, as the post is rediculous.
From the emission link you provided: "The trouble with diesels in the U.S. is at the tailpipe. They can't pass the emissions regs that go into effect in California this year and phase in across the country over the next four years."
I imagine he is referring to some reports that on long uphill climbs the hybrid battery discharges to the point it is of no value to run the electric motor and you lose speed. Pike's Peak is hard on any vehicle that depends on air to breathe, also humans. I believe there was such a test in Canada on the Prius and that was a complaint that it ran out of steam on a very long uphill climb. For me it was another good reason to buy the Jetta TDI over the Hybrid Civic.
Actually I was more interested in the specifics of why the diesel emissions are not passing the EPA & CARB standards.
Turbocharged vehicles in general have a huge advantage over normally aspirated vehicles in high altitudes simple due to the fact that since the air is thinner at higher altitudes, forced induction engines can ram more air into the engine, while normally-aspirated engined vehicles can only draw air into the engine via the piston's intake stroke.
The best example of this is the fact that the majority of long-range tractor-trailers have turbocharged diesel engines just for that reason.
Bottom line:
At high altitudes, any turbocharged engine has a tremendous advantage over any normally aspirated or hybrid vehicle....
I'm not doubting that diesel would or would not hold steady power for the climb...but come on...
"leaving the battery-depleted hybrids well below the tree line gasping along"
Given the lack of any test credentials this strong statement is only an exaggerated opinion. I can't speak for Prius but I can for HCH... The electric motor is there to provide optimum MPG, not as a primary motive power source. It's only 16HP @ a full SOC.
Yes, you will loose speed as the SOC reaches its minimum..but how much will you loose as related to a comparable diesel? 5MPH perhaps?
My point is that it won't be left below the tree line, gasping along...The author forgot to leave out more of his likely opinions: "crippled, broken down and useless"
Comments
Sebring, you mentioned space heaters and yes that's what I've been planning. Most 12v car heaters I've seen are pretty weak for our harsh Canadian winters. So will be getting one of those ceramic 110v home heater fan and I prolly an inverter to go with it. A real kludge really as all those wires and fan will be pain inside the car but what the heck, I'm trying to save money here so can't complain too much.
The market for a used Prius here in Canada isn't too great yet for the price. Mine goes at around Cdn $17.5K, which is what a brand new basic Civic or Corolla would go. Canadians are smart value oriented consumers and that price is a hard sell. I imagine once the price dips below 15 grand, there will be takers. Plus heres the rub, mine got some needed repairs I inherited right off the dealer. Unfortunately as hard as I tried to have them fixed, they refused. I even called Toyota Canada but they stood by their dealer. So I figure I'm just gonna let them have the problem back at lease end.
Anyway, lets stop talking about my Prius as this is a Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI thread. The only reason I posted here was to point out some hybrid advantages in winter which I've already mentioned in prevous posts. I havent mentioned yet that due to the large batteries and big electric motors doubling as starters, starting is much more gentler to the ICE than conventional cars. You should try starting a hybrid, there is no falter, starts very gently, and is an amazingly quiet event.
On the Jetta TDI, I test drove a 97 last weekend. I was surprised at the noise. From reviews and comments I've read I expected a lot less noise in the freeway but I was severely disappointed. My '00 Mazda MPV with its tiny 2.5 litre engine reving at 3000rpm sounded lexus quiet on the way home in comparison.
I also conked out the engine turning back to the dealer... tsk tsk tsk. Gotta work on that stick shift skills again. At home I learned in the net TDI's could be shifted without me stepping on the accelerator (true?), so kept that in my mental file for future use.
The net review of VW's also is very scary, one even advised not owning a Vdub if you are not mechanically enclined to fixing your own car as it can be very expensive if you have to bring it to the shop often. Man...with the disappointing test drive and lousy reliability reviews, I'm almost ready to chicken out on this.
Can anybody pls give me a more reasurring reviews than this?
However today here in Canada, if I were in the market for a new 2 door I would consider the Smart with its 6 speed auto manual. But thats just only me as I would try to run it in Biodiesel or SVO.
On the VW Jetta TDI, I currently run 15,000-20,000 mile oil and filter change intervals! The Honda Civic dealer (one of the absolute best in this area within a 50 mile radius, I might add) did an absolute full court press to sign me up for 5,000 mile oil and filter change intervals!!!!!
Honda Civic was always a contender in my book for a daily driver commute car! I got the 2004 Honda Civic VP almost as a no brainer due to the fact that I was almost pleasantly shocked to find out my 2003 Jetta TDI was selling for more than I paid for it new. I was also eligible for a 1,000 dollar prior owners discount with VW. This would have dropped the purchase price significantly below invoice. Unfortunately no new TDI products for 2004/5 was available in CA!
My goals are thus: 1. 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles with the diesel 2003 Jetta TDI 2. 250,000 miles with the 2004 Honda Civic VP
Did you keep the Jetta or trade it in? How do they compare in handling and braking. One reason I am interested in a diesel, is the next time the middle east squeezes off our oil I can head to McDonalds for a fillup of old cooking oil.....
Pete Blackshaw. The Cincinnati marketing exec bought a Honda Civic hybrid last year and proudly outfitted it with MO MILES vanity plates. But instead of the 48mpg his window sticker promised, he gets 33mpg. "All I want is a damn car that lives up to its promise," he gripes, "and that won't make my wife repeatedly tell me I'm a big fool."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6480057/site/newsweek/
Uhhh, I don't use a space heater on my car. The heater I use is a 1000 watt Zero-start brand coolant heater. It's hooked into the coolant lines and the plug is located in my front grille. It heats and circulates the coolant (i have it on a timer) and when I start the car it instantly blows hot-air through the HVAC system. You can buy one already set-up for the TDI motor at www.tdiheater.com
I believe you'll find the newer diesels to be quieter than a 1997 model. Not only are the engines a bit different, the new ones have more sound deadening and ride a completely different chassis. 1999 was the first year for the newer diesels, with slightly updated motors again in 2004. Fuel quality also effects noise levels. My TDI is very quiet on the highway, most folks have no clue it's a diesel. With the exception of idling, I think it's very quiet and I drive/own a couple luxury vehicles as well. It's not Lexus quiet, but not many vehicles are, lol!
Handling and braking by the numbers is actually pretty similar. Feeling wise, for me the verdict is still out(not enough miles at 2500). The Civic seems to have a more nervous ride (faster ocillations) Contrary to what I have been lead to believe, the consumable replacement parts are actually cheaper on the VW Jetta!!?? This is surprizing for my rice rocket vendors indicated WAY more choices and options that say the pickled herring side.
In regards to your "do you want fries with that?" comment, all you need is a roughly 1800 dollar portable processing unit and I am sure the places that pay folks to take old cooking oil away will be almost glad to GIVE it to you, although I have not dug into the regulations that govern oil disposal. The salesman that sold me my TDI indicates that he planted 8 acres in soybeans with the calculation that it should be enough for his diesel fuel needs per year!!(plus a slight profit i.e.,at worst: no cost for energy for a years time!! (He's got farm tractors, diesel van and a VW TDI Jetta wagon) I guess I should go up to visit him and talk more seriously about this with him!! He also goes to those classes in Berkeley CA about alternative fuels!
I am starting to see that getting a biodiesel system going is regulatory intense and challenged!!! A member of our VW TDI get together group brought down some biodiesel (from the Berkely coop or some such), but I had to decline for I was filled already!
What the auto makers, the politicians and the world leaders don't know is how serious the average consumer is about this energy + environment issue is. I'm no tree hugger or greenie and I my income is not excessive, yet I voted with my money on the hybrid when I could not realy afford it becuase I thought that was the only solution back then. Now, I'm hoping this diesel/used veggie oil will give me what I want for lesser.
Now if ordinary Joe's like us are looking into this (and I really mean ordinary when talking about me), there IS a strong undercurrent going on here, and that right or wrong is why I think the Hybrids are selling.
ruking1, when you said that fits your description did you mean the spotty vdub reliability or the techy know how? (both?) How much do I have to know to keep a vdub running for the least $$$? What about those timing belt changes, do I really have to have them changed as soon as I buy a used Jetta?
He can get 48 "clean" MPG in his Hybrid by slowing down and driving more fuel consciously. It's for COMMUTING, not HOT RODDING. I'm AMAZED by how many people ZOOM BY ME when I'm doing at or slightly below the speed limit and then HELLO there we sit by them at the next red light. Most people drive like DUMMIES and waste a TON of fuel just zooming between red lights.
Hybrid is not hype if you embrace it and live with it...I'm getting 46.6 over about 4000 miles in my HCH, with a VERY "mpg unfriendly" short commute on city streets, no hwy usage at all, and using HEAVY A/C in July/Aug/Sept in Phoenix.
I'm taking a road trip to TX in December which will force me to drive 75-80 MPH to keep with the flow, a loaded car (two kids and me plus bags) and we will see how well the HCH does under those circumstances. I hope to get at least 40 MPG. But this is a once or twice a year trip - not the norm.
Thanks for that info. I wonder tho how that will interact with the SVO kits I read in greasel or greasecar. Those kits seem to use the same heat source to heat up the used oil tank.
1999 TDI's? Man that's out of my leaque again for now. My Prius is 2001, just 2 years difference so the prices won't be that far away anyway to make a difference. Now if I could find a high mileage 1999 maybe that'll be much cheaper, hmmm....
Insofar as changing the timing belts, having the vehicles history would be helpful. Otherwise because it is so critical (expensive) if it breaks, sometimes without the historical knowledge it might be better to change the belt, which would establish a KNOWN baseline!
The Honda Civic requires a timing belt change at 120,000 miles vs TDI at 100,000 miles. So really both vehicles are in the same boat. Inidcations are the prices are app the same for this procedure.
I'm just now beginning to appreciate my MPV's Ford duratec engine. For all it's suspect origin it at least uses a timing chain that doesn't need replacement and doesn't clatter. 5 years and 110k km later it's only run smoother.
Thanks for the info, guess I'll need to do more research on this vdub thing, see if I can stand the reliability issue. Should also look for other diesel engines out there - maybe some old Toyota PU diesel.
Most of the grease kits I've seen use the coolant of the car to heat the grease. Soooo, the faster your coolant heats up, the faster you can switch to grease. The Zerostart heater should be a huge asset if you're running an SVO vehicle.
As for prices, I guess you'll have to figure that out. I don't know the TDI market in Canada at all. If you're shopping a TDI, I would find a private seller that way you know the repair history. I'm probably selling mine soon and already have someone interested in it, simply because private-sale TDI's with pristine maintenance histories are easy to sell. But they can be good buys too.
There are two issues that really hit VW reliability - one was a faulty design of the power windows regulator, the old design had a nylon part that would break causing the window to fall into the door. VW redesigned the regulator and replaced all the faulty ones (even if the car was way out of warranty), plus put a 7 year warranty on them - problem solved.
The next issue was coil packs - obviously not a diesel issue. VW's supplier of coil packs for the gas engines had quality control issues. VW found an different supplier and replaced every faulty coil pack under warranty - even if the car was way out of warranty.
These two issues are responsible for VW's percieved reliability issues - I'll compare my Jetta to any Honda any day as far as reliability is concerned.
If low sulfur diesel arrives, people will FLOCK to the diesels - they offer a simpler, proven technology to get higher MPG (albeit with slower acceleration). I will certainly buy one if they become available. The important point is that the European diesels are not dirty, they are clean. They are also very fuel efficient and provide tons of torque at low RPMs.
Added to this is the fact that diesel requires less refining than gasoline.
I agree, BUT it is the fault of the EPA. They were able to get lead out of gasoline 30 years ago. Why has it taken so long to get the sulfur out of diesel? How many millions of barrels of oil would we have saved if people were driving clean diesel cars as they are in Europe. You want people to give up the efficient diesel engine cars because the EPA & CARB have their heads up you know where. Worse they were probably bought off by the Oil companies. It seems we have had this discussion before. You want to blame the cars for the pollution when it is the fuel that we as little people have very little control over. You would be driving a car burning leaded gas which is even worse than diesel, if it were not for regulations. The bottom line is people want reliable high mileage cars. Diesel cars are proven high mileage vehicles. Hybrids are still unproven for the long haul. Tell me you love your hybrid when it has 150k miles on it...
Regular Civics possibly but the HCH has a chain.
Not sure if I'd give up the MPG I'm getting from my gas powered car:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=70
More than 25K miles and I've averaged just under 60MPG.
Most folks are averaging around 48, as someone said earlier.
Somehow when I see a TDI it reminds me of a reworked Chevy Citation. Check the comparative links:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/433000-433999/4- - 33604_35_full.jpg
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/VolkswagenGolfTDI/Images/LeftF- - ront.jpg
But hey, that's just me, I doubt anyone else could make the similarities.
I admit being biased against diesel cars.
Back in the 1970's the mags & reviews said the technology had matured and my dad bought one. An Isuzu, it was difficult to start in the Minnesota winters and really noisy. When it began to stink my dad had it fixed for $$$ and got rid of it.
Then in the 80's the claims were made again for diesel cars, then in the 90's if you were on the highway and saw a heavily smoking car you could bet it was ether one of these...an older Mercedes or Volvo diesel.
Same claims in the 90's of new & improved technology....still today if you are in a drivethrough or on the highway, your eyes begin to sting and "That smell" look for the diesel car, you'll find one almost every time.
So when today the mags & reviews say the technology is new and improved many of us take it with the porverbial "grain of salt"
With the TDI MSPR higher than the HCH and comparable MPG to the average user, the potential for diesel to smoke and the potential $$$ for emission repair, the MFG endless Mag review promises I'll steer clear of it.
I bet you've stood next to a 2000-era diesel car at the pump, and not even realized it. Modern diesels meet the same emissions requirements as gasoline cars with *no visible exhaust.*
That stinging can also be from burning unleaded gas in most states. It is also very high in sulfur, causing NoX.
Sounds like you are as hard to convince on diesel as I am on hybrid. It is a matter of proven efficiency vs unproven hybrid technology. I would be more interested after there is a history of many 150k mile hybrids without any major troubles.
So far the posters that own VW TDI vehicles have gotten good reliability.
But they DO seem very reliable, some are still selling at 750k km and I could get one at 300k for just a grand - the ultimate cheapo.
Some may look at this quote and see part of it as being pejorative, but I do not! One of the overwhelmingly interesting points that really sold me on the TDI and the VW is the 12 year rust through unlimited mile rust warranty and the fact that the TDI engine can easily go 500,000 miles and with some care and inevitable replacement parts 1,000,000 miles!
In the past, I have been fortunate to buy (16,000) and to sell (9,000) a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser, with ownership of 14 years and 250,000 miles.
Not in my wildest dreams, do I expect either the Honda or the VW to duplicate this; but it would be pretty neat if it did or was even close!
Just in case somebody does, I meant that as a compliment!
My quest is to own a cheap reliable diesel vehicle I can play with to convert to a grease burner. So far, I'm beginning to think this is the way I should go: A pre 1993 Jetta with 300k km for about a grand. At least if I mess it up, I won't end up bawling.... hmmmm.
We'll see....
Just think for less than 3k you have transportation, means of fuel production/conversion and perform a valuable business and environmental service! What is not to like about that!!
I thought they stopped sales of the TDI in early 2004? Anyway, I'm not in the market at the moment.
It's not the availability, it is the CARB regulations that keep the diesels out of California. Plus, I don't think that any vehicles sold in the US are engineered to take advantage of the ULSD formulation.
No actually 2003 VW (among others) in the USA are engineered to run the 2006 (new) formulation.
The ULSD burns cleaner regardless of any fancy scrubbers, catalysts, etc. Pour some 50 cetane 30ppm ULSD into my TDI and it immediately quiets down, runs smoother, and will NOT puff any smoke under any conditions. The problem is, ULSD is not available everywhere yet, therefore the manufacturers cannot equip the vehicles with additional emissions control that requires ULSD. Biodiesel/blends takes care of the smell, although ULSD is a low aromatic fuel anyway.
Won't the engine controls be damaged by the higher sulfer in the fuels? I believe the European models have special scrubbers to remove particulates & etc?
In the U.S. the sulfur is high, so VW does not install the European catalysts.
Other than that, I am lead to believe the 2006 standard formulation has higher cetane ratings, much lower sulfur content and resultantly lower structural emissions. Obviously one benefit is cleaner burning and one that is yet untested on the wide scale market is slightly better fuel mileage. My response is yippee, yahoo! A down side might be higher prices!
Well, that's what I was saying, that the US models are not set up for ULSD fuel...
Is this price increase just one of those things or are we already paying for ULSD ?
http://www.tnrcc.state.tx.us/air/ms/fuelprograms.html#dsl1
If you want to talk , please take it to the dedicated discussion.
European TDI has the same thing. It's clean too.
American TDIs do not, because the high sulfur fuel would poison the catalyst. So they are dirty (high NOx output).
.
I hope that's clear. That's the simplest way I know to explain it.
"If ULSD fuel came on line today, I could run it on my 2003 TDI with no adaptation and no equipment damage, as stated in the above post: cleaner emissions and probably better mileage!!?? "
NO. SOx would drop, but that is all. It would still be dirty, still the same mpg, still the same car, because you don't have the advanced NOx catalyst like the Euro-TDI & Civic Hybrid has.
Troy
And yeah I know about cetane, but you don't need to wait. You can buy 50 cetane right now. Just look for the "premium diesel" logo, which is what I use in my Beetle.
Personally, I can't wait for 2006 when TDIs will be just as clean as the Civic Hybrids.
This is not true. Diesel exhaust will NEVER be as clean as gasoline exhaust. Period. There are more carcinogens in diesel exhaust, and low sulfur does not end that.
2006 Jetta TDI will not be as clean as the 2006 HCH, or in 2008, or in 2012, or 2016.
Second, diesels are already cleaner than gasoline in every category except NOx: - 2000 VW Manual Beetle (grams/mile)
----- Gas TDI
NOx 1.3 2.7
PMs ----- ----- (not measured)
CO2 7.0 4.7
CO 1.10 0.01
HC 0.15 0.00 (evaporative)
VW TDI diesels have already been promoted by fueleconomy.gov's green score:
2000 = 1
2005 = 6
I fully expect to see 2007 = 9 with the European clean-diesel technologies. In other words, equal to a Civic Hybrid.
troy
The funny part is the environmental rules actually encourage the growth! How do you think diesel in Euro is getting to be 65% of the vehicle fleet from a low of 33-45%?
(USA, I'm guessing might be 2% in anybodys wildest dreams and or nightmares)
Pretty easy motivator, just keep raising the price of gasoline!
Fully 98% of our economy is run by some sort of diesel! So say you were able to ban diesel use inside of say a major metropoliton area such as Boston, MA or even NYC. You think they have nightmare traffic problems now!!!!
If you are NOT directly - and I mean directly as in features, seat, ride - comparing the Honda Civic Hybrid v. the TDI, the post will be deleted or moved. I just moved posts to the Hybrid v. Diesel discussion.
Comparing TDI v. Civic Hybrid technologies (HYBRID v DIESEL) will get those posts moved as well.
This is a good article on emissions...
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_- id=7816&page_number=1
Please post your source for this test, as the post is rediculous.
From the emission link you provided:
"The trouble with diesels in the U.S. is at the tailpipe. They can't pass the emissions regs that go into effect in California this year and phase in across the country over the next four years."
Please post your source for this test, as the post is rediculous.
It is on the first page of the article you just quoted.
The article fails to quote any test conditions...or is this just the writers opinion of hybrid vehicles?
I could write many opinions about vehicles I don't like but doesn't mean a thing without facts.
Actually I was more interested in the specifics of why the diesel emissions are not passing the EPA & CARB standards.
The best example of this is the fact that the majority of long-range tractor-trailers have turbocharged diesel engines just for that reason.
Bottom line:
At high altitudes, any turbocharged engine has a tremendous advantage over any normally aspirated or hybrid vehicle....
"leaving the battery-depleted hybrids well below the tree line gasping along"
Given the lack of any test credentials this strong statement is only an exaggerated opinion.
I can't speak for Prius but I can for HCH...
The electric motor is there to provide optimum MPG, not as a primary motive power source.
It's only 16HP @ a full SOC.
Yes, you will loose speed as the SOC reaches its minimum..but how much will you loose as related to a comparable diesel? 5MPH perhaps?
My point is that it won't be left below the tree line, gasping along...The author forgot to leave out more of his likely opinions: "crippled, broken down and useless"